In setting with Magic - scientific revolution could happen sure - especially if magic is nor reliable enough for technology, but it's quite possible scientism as philosophy would be impossible, since magic and gods would be observably real, but also due to sentient nature (magic exist only with magician not as some space energy to be harness by machines - if it's space energy there is no reason to call it magic) it cannot be submited to real empirical evidence - since free agents can always twist results in unpredictable manner, and you have no methodology to call bullshit on them.

QuoteNot all cultures believed this. The vast majority didn't. For instance, here's what Buddhism's response to those 3 assumptions would look like.

1. No it doesn't. There is nothing unchanging. Period.
2. See above. There are no rational laws to discover.
3. 'True reality' doesn't exist.

that does not sound as any form of buddhism I read about.
in Buddhism reality is very much real - but SELF is not real but emergent illusion without own being.
that's why buddhism in many cases have very clear rational notions of what to do to abandon illusions.

QuoteNow, if Magic is real why would anyone think that things fall down for any other reason than because the gods will it?
Why would anyone think that a spyglass is anything else than magic?

Because any shmuck can do spyglass given technology - while you cannot do magic without attuning your very own personal mind to CELESTIAL STAR HIERARCHY for instance.
Unless magic is weird form of energy in which case basically it should be possible to scientifically research it and finally build machines to harness it. So all those kinds of magick should not count as supernatural - but merely invented natural and be suspectible to empirism.

In my Fantasy RPG setting:

The planet that the game takes place on is a giant psychic battery.  So the universe works like our own universe but the local region has magic that can counteract the natural laws of the universe, thus you get "magic users" who can cast fireballs from their hands and fly. 

About 1% of humanoids are capable of learning magic.  That is to say, they can train their minds to recite the formulae that makes spells happen.  "Spells" being one-time magical effects. 

Since the universe woks normally you can have a scientifice revolution. But there are powerful entities (gods, demons, etc), and magical societies, and priesthoods who like having a monopoly on power. 

Since smart people tend to become wizards and clerics, why would a smart person take the time to invent an arquebus when they can just study magic and cast magic mise or fireball?  Why experiment with medicine when cure wounds and cure disease exists.  And how would they even know to study science when there are people healing the sick, raising the dead, and blowing up towns with fireballs?  Magic, though uncommon, is the path of least resistance. 

Since Humans and other humanoids migrated to this planet from across the stars, science was once a thing.  So there are residual low tech inventions like water clocks and spring powered machinery, and catapults. 

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2023, 05:32:49 PM
In setting with Magic - scientific revolution could happen sure - especially if magic is nor reliable enough for technology, but it's quite possible scientism as philosophy would be impossible, since magic and gods would be observably real, but also due to sentient nature (magic exist only with magician not as some space energy to be harness by machines - if it's space energy there is no reason to call it magic) it cannot be submited to real empirical evidence - since free agents can always twist results in unpredictable manner, and you have no methodology to call bullshit on them.

QuoteNot all cultures believed this. The vast majority didn't. For instance, here's what Buddhism's response to those 3 assumptions would look like.

1. No it doesn't. There is nothing unchanging. Period.
2. See above. There are no rational laws to discover.
3. 'True reality' doesn't exist.

that does not sound as any form of buddhism I read about.
in Buddhism reality is very much real - but SELF is not real but emergent illusion without own being.
that's why buddhism in many cases have very clear rational notions of what to do to abandon illusions.

QuoteNow, if Magic is real why would anyone think that things fall down for any other reason than because the gods will it?
Why would anyone think that a spyglass is anything else than magic?

Because any shmuck can do spyglass given technology - while you cannot do magic without attuning your very own personal mind to CELESTIAL STAR HIERARCHY for instance.
Unless magic is weird form of energy in which case basically it should be possible to scientifically research it and finally build machines to harness it. So all those kinds of magick should not count as supernatural - but merely invented natural and be suspectible to empirism.

Must be why the "native americans" were amazed at mirrors and telescopes...

Must  be why seeing photographic cameras like soul stealing magic was a thing

Must be why cargo cults are a thing.

Not any schmuck can make a telescope, and said tech was kept a state secret IRL for a long while. Why would those who know how spread the tech? Assuming they didn't think it was all part of a magic ritual.

You're failing at seeing things as someone living in such a world.

QuoteMust be why the "native americans" were amazed at mirrors and telescopes...

Must  be why seeing photographic cameras like soul stealing magic was a thing

Must be why cargo cults are a thing.

Not any schmuck can make a telescope, and said tech was kept a state secret IRL for a long while. Why would those who know how spread the tech? Assuming they didn't think it was all part of a magic ritual.

You're failing at seeing things as someone living in such a world.

Yeah but that's not the point I was making. Sure you can trick someone not knowing your tricks they are more than in reality. That's true.
But ultimately technology is operating on matter, not esoteric art of mind. Ability to pass it around is way way way higher (whether supernatural art works at all or not).

I can teach wild tribesman that pushing button on Polaroid will lead to photo, but generally most magical theories in fiction and rl, does not assume you can do something as easy and mass produced to magically conjure such image. Now if in your world magicians are 15% of population, and image conjuring artifacts that muggles can use by pushing button are common... then sure, but it's rare situation and not how magical arts are commonly seen.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2023, 08:56:30 PM

QuoteMust be why the "native americans" were amazed at mirrors and telescopes...

Must  be why seeing photographic cameras like soul stealing magic was a thing

Must be why cargo cults are a thing.

Not any schmuck can make a telescope, and said tech was kept a state secret IRL for a long while. Why would those who know how spread the tech? Assuming they didn't think it was all part of a magic ritual.

You're failing at seeing things as someone living in such a world.

Yeah but that's not the point I was making. Sure you can trick someone not knowing your tricks they are more than in reality. That's true.
But ultimately technology is operating on matter, not esoteric art of mind. Ability to pass it around is way way way higher (whether supernatural art works at all or not).

I can teach wild tribesman that pushing button on Polaroid will lead to photo, but generally most magical theories in fiction and rl, does not assume you can do something as easy and mass produced to magically conjure such image. Now if in your world magicians are 15% of population, and image conjuring artifacts that muggles can use by pushing button are common... then sure, but it's rare situation and not how magical arts are commonly seen.

Sure, tech isn't magic, that's not the argument we're having, the argument is: Would people in a world where magic is real and the gods intervene see a spyglass as tech or not?

I say they would see it as a magical ritual, so no discovery of the laws behind it would be made.

You're again inserting your IRL self into the game world.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on November 30, 2023, 10:03:49 PM
There are three assumptions that were required for the Scientific Revolution to start.

1. The world works off of invariable rational laws that work the same throughout time and space.
2. These rational laws are contingent, not necessary. The world could work off of any set of laws, you need to go out and find which set it works under (through empirical observation and study).
3. These rational laws are consistently discoverable by humans.

...

In the worlds you have made or played in, do these three assumptions apply? Are you comfortable playing in a world where they don't? Why or why not?

Kind of two questions there. "Are these assumptions valid in the setting?" and "Do the people in the setting believe them?". I'm not sure from the phrasing which is being asked.

The former question is more interesting to me:
--The majority of fantasy settings arguably violate the first condition. As soon as you introduce the incredibly common trope of time running differently in Fairyland, you've broken it. How many fantasy settings include some variation of "cold fire", or even just immortality (which violates the laws of thermodynamics)? That said, I'm not sure that necessarily matters. To use (and probably butcher) a scientific analogy: As far as I understand it, Newtonian physics are not actually accurate in all times and places (as compared to Einsteinian or quantum physics), but they're good enough to allow for a huge amount of scientific progress. Likewise, as long as the laws of time and space are "reliable enough" in the fantasy setting, the same progress is possible. Even if water has a different boiling point in the Dimension of Dread or whatever, you can still invent the steam engine on the material plane. You get the idea. Honestly, given that most fantasy settings operate this way, it can be a little immersion breaking that they're often locked in a single state of progress. I'm not an expert on Faerun, but from the outside it appears to have been in technological stasis for millennia.
--The second assumption is essentially just a truism, so it's only really relevant to the question of whether people believe it.
--The third assumption kind of gets you into the realm of the Lovecraftian. A hallmark of "cosmic horror" and related subgenres is that the laws which govern reality are not discoverable and/or comprehensible by humans. Personally, I find that makes for a more interesting fantasy setting, but even then the scientific mindset isn't impossible. There's lots of fun to be had with stories about the rational man running face-first into that which defies understanding. Bloodborne and Indiana Jones both come to mind.

Regarding the subtopic which has risen around whether a fantasy setting would realistically experience a scientific revolution, I think some progress would be inevitable, but the pace is a question of cost-benefit:

If magic is readily available, reliable, and well-enough understood to be codified into an academic discipline, I suspect that would stifle technological progress, simply because magic would present a path of less resistance. Scientific experimentation is time-consuming and expensive, and is therefore usually the province of the idle rich, or at least done under their patronage. You can imagine that being less appetizing when you could easily pay a wizard to produce the same results. Ironically what scientific progress you would get would probably come from wizards themselves, they being the best educated people with the most free time on their hands. That image tracks pretty well with the most popular official D&D settings (Krynn, Ravenloft and Eberron being possible exceptions), probably because it matches the implied setting created by the D&D rules.

On the other hand, if magic is the province of a select and secretive few, ill-understood even by it's practitioners, and comes at a significant personal cost, you probably get more technological innovation, because the demand is still there. Warhammer Fantasy's Old World is a possible example, though I think Discworld might be a better one. In the early books, inventions like the pocket-watch and camera are powered magically, but later on it sees the non-magical invention of the firearm, printing press, submarine, semaphore, and eventually the steam engine. Discworld is a setting that doesn't take itself all that seriously, but I don't think it's a coincidence that it's a setting where one has to be born a wizard, heavy magic use presents significant risks, and what wizards there are a cloistered set with a culture of not interfering with the common people.

In my setting what most call magic is actually science (more accurately sufficiently advanced technology).

The barbarians of the wilds can produce technology at around AD 900-1300 levels.

The most civilized regions can produce technology at around AD 1750-1850 levels.

The Mechanist class is able to create small amounts of Pre-Cataclysm tech which is basically pre-FTL sci-fi.

The Mage class is able cargo cult its way through the use of Precursor tech (basically magic accessed through programs running on a global nanocloud using verbal, somatic and implement-based interfaces), but has only limited understanding of its foundations (ex. they know that line 138 of the "fireball spell" code has to be there for it to work... they don't know WHY line 138 has to be there).

Mystics instinctively tap into something that seems to transcend even the Precursor tech... (ie. it seems to manipulate the same forces the nanocloud does, but they don't require the nanocloud interface to do so). This ability cannot be trained and seems to manifest at random in the population (whereas Mechanists and Mages derive their abilities through study and access to resources).

To the average person, Mechanists, Mages and Mystics all use magic, but most can understand that Mechanists are able to produce things using otherwise lost science, and some understand Mages are using really lost science. No one understands how Mystics are able to do what they do and those who run society are generally distrustful of them since they have no way to control who gets access to the power of a mystic.

Is a scientific revolution possible in my world?

What world am I running or playing? For the sake of conversation, let's pick something published that people can look up.

Maybe the world is Toril or Golarion, maybe it's Oerth, perhaps it's Krynn. Well the game I'm in is some kind of medieval fantasy game. A scientific revolution makes the world stop being a medieval fantasy world. Regardless of whether a scientific revolution is possible, we're not doing it.

Maybe the world is a galaxy far far away, a Federation starship in the late 23rd century, or mid-2000s Seattle after the Sixth Age has begun and the magic has come back. Those are science fiction or cyberpunk settings with vastly superior technology to what we have today. The question of a scientific revolution is moot. It's already happened.

Maybe the world is Deadlands. That's late 1800s North America, which is currently undergoing a scientific revolution as part of the setting.

These are all very different worlds, because that's what happens as a result of a scientific revolution.

It seems to me that this question is only applicable to a fantasy setting, or something like it. If I'm playing or running such a game, I've already made the decision regarding my interest in a scientific revolution. So I guess my answer is that I don't care if a scientific revolution is possible. If I did, I'd play something else instead.

QuoteSure, tech isn't magic, that's not the argument we're having, the argument is: Would people in a world where magic is real and the gods intervene see a spyglass as tech or not?

I say they would see it as a magical ritual, so no discovery of the laws behind it would be made.

Depends of how divine miracles and rituals are performed.
People were using tools for generations, without considering them magical on itself (although not offending God of Crafts was always promoted).
So technology gonna work anyway - now of course most of technology is older than scientific organised theories.
To that I'd say - like from what I read plenty real world magicians were trying to understand RULES behind magic. There were theories. There were metaphysical concepts to explain percieved reality. Ergo philosophy - mother of science. Pure utilitarism was never enough for nerds.

To answer the original question - my game-world has relatively active divinity in it. The emperor is directly descended from the Sun God who founded the empire. There are frequent sacred locations that are very minor deities in their own right.

So for mortals, scientific inquiry isn't a useful tool. It's more effective to ask the gods and spirits how things works. If the gods and spirits don't like you, then it doesn't matter whether you try scientific experiments - because they will mess with the experiments to trip you up. (This would be like the sophon in the novel The Three Body Problem. If there is a powerful intelligence that is watching as you try experiments and will mess with the results, then scientific process can't work.)

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 08:04:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 01, 2023, 09:34:52 PM
Sure, tech isn't magic, that's not the argument we're having, the argument is: Would people in a world where magic is real and the gods intervene see a spyglass as tech or not?

I say they would see it as a magical ritual, so no discovery of the laws behind it would be made.

Depends of how divine miracles and rituals are performed.
People were using tools for generations, without considering them magical on itself (although not offending God of Crafts was always promoted).
So technology gonna work anyway - now of course most of technology is older than scientific organised theories.
To that I'd say - like from what I read plenty real world magicians were trying to understand RULES behind magic. There were theories. There were metaphysical concepts to explain percieved reality. Ergo philosophy - mother of science. Pure utilitarism was never enough for nerds.

Yeah. Magicians have always tried to figure out how magic works. A lot of things that are now called science were once called magic. People tried to figure them out, but often they didn't have the background or process to understand what they were studying.

RPG systems tend to distinguish between "science" as things that work in the real world, and "magic" as things that only work in the fictional world. But of course, in the fictional world, they don't know about the real world - so that dividing line makes no sense. Magic and science would be one discipline ("natural philosophy") divided into appropriate sub-fields like biology, astronomy, divination, etc.

QuoteRPG systems tend to distinguish between "science" as things that work in the real world, and "magic" as things that only work in the fictional world. But of course, in the fictional world, they don't know about the real world - so that dividing line makes no sense. Magic and science would be one discipline ("natural philosophy") divided into appropriate sub-fields like biology, astronomy, divination, etc.

Well that depends - for instance in Faerun you gonna have whole entity called Weave any all energy-working using it gonna be called Magick. So there is separation by the source.
Of course Magick as weird energy is very modern perspective came from XIX century pseudoscience of spiritualists who tried to find non-mystical explanations, and only rarely in actual magick practices weird energy is a thing - there is reason term mana came from Polynesians - relatively obscure people in grand scheme of things.

I guess certain form of ki- or prana, as vital energies living organisms can harness could work in that way - though AFAIK it was basically always old, not obsolete idea of separate specific energy responsible for living beings being well ALIVE.

QuoteSo for mortals, scientific inquiry isn't a useful tool. It's more effective to ask the gods and spirits how things works. If the gods and spirits don't like you, then it doesn't matter whether you try scientific experiments - because they will mess with the experiments to trip you up. (This would be like the sophon in the novel The Three Body Problem. If there is a powerful intelligence that is watching as you try experiments and will mess with the results, then scientific process can't work.)

That's also while all this attempts to say God, gods, spirits or faerie are not real because experiemtns does not show them are philosophically bullshit. You cannot believably experiment if sentient subject can interfere - that's also grand problem with psychology.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 03, 2023, 07:50:51 PM

QuoteRPG systems tend to distinguish between "science" as things that work in the real world, and "magic" as things that only work in the fictional world. But of course, in the fictional world, they don't know about the real world - so that dividing line makes no sense. Magic and science would be one discipline ("natural philosophy") divided into appropriate sub-fields like biology, astronomy, divination, etc.

Well that depends - for instance in Faerun you gonna have whole entity called Weave any all energy-working using it gonna be called Magick. So there is separation by the source.
Of course Magick as weird energy is very modern perspective came from XIX century pseudoscience of spiritualists who tried to find non-mystical explanations, and only rarely in actual magick practices weird energy is a thing - there is reason term mana came from Polynesians - relatively obscure people in grand scheme of things.

I guess certain form of ki- or prana, as vital energies living organisms can harness could work in that way - though AFAIK it was basically always old, not obsolete idea of separate specific energy responsible for living beings being well ALIVE.

QuoteSo for mortals, scientific inquiry isn't a useful tool. It's more effective to ask the gods and spirits how things works. If the gods and spirits don't like you, then it doesn't matter whether you try scientific experiments - because they will mess with the experiments to trip you up. (This would be like the sophon in the novel The Three Body Problem. If there is a powerful intelligence that is watching as you try experiments and will mess with the results, then scientific process can't work.)

That's also while all this attempts to say God, gods, spirits or faerie are not real because experiemtns does not show them are philosophically bullshit. You cannot believably experiment if sentient subject can interfere - that's also grand problem with psychology.

There you go again mixing the real world with the game world.

What is gravity? The deformation of space by the mass of an object. In the real world.

Now, let's postulate a world where the gods intervene everyday, where you can witness clerics healing by impossing hands, where wizards cast fireballs, where druids wildshape, where if a werewolf bites you you become one too, where vampires are real, demons exist, so do djinns and other supernatural entities.

Can you imagine such a world?

Now, in such a world the answer to why the apple falls from the tree is because the gods will it. Why would anyone doubt such an explanation? Even if in the game world gravity works just like in ours.

It's the same reason why in such a world there can't be atheists, in such a world you KNOW the gods are real, it's not a matter of faith. Go ask the atheist Grim Jimm.

Isaac Newton was a religionist, a magician, and a scientist, all at once.

Quote from: pawsplay on December 05, 2023, 12:52:22 AM
Isaac Newton was a religionist, a magician, and a scientist, all at once.

Point of order. You say "magician," but at that time the field of Chymistry (i.e. alchemy on its way to becoming chemistry) was a part of what were known as the natural magics (the precursors of astronomy, biology, botony, chemistry and physics; a literal example of Clarke's inverse law; any sufficiently studied magic becomes science).

Sir Newton was not an occultist attempting to summon up or bargain with spirits when not working on optics, gravity and calculus; he was also a proto-chemist.

QuoteThere you go again mixing the real world with the game world.

What is gravity? The deformation of space by the mass of an object. In the real world.

Now, let's postulate a world where the gods intervene everyday, where you can witness clerics healing by impossing hands, where wizards cast fireballs, where druids wildshape, where if a werewolf bites you you become one too, where vampires are real, demons exist, so do djinns and other supernatural entities.

Can you imagine such a world?

Now, in such a world the answer to why the apple falls from the tree is because the gods will it. Why would anyone doubt such an explanation? Even if in the game world gravity works just like in ours.

It's the same reason why in such a world there can't be atheists, in such a world you KNOW the gods are real, it's not a matter of faith. Go ask the atheist Grim Jimm.

Because imagine this people believed in divine interventions for centuries and it did not stop them from seeking patter in nature.
Anti-logic universes are rarely. Nightmarish whimsical where reality is in constant flux is rare. Generally speaking in our world or in fantasy large chunk of nature of reality is solid and even gods cannot wantonly (or don't want as their is Cosmic Order) change them. And if people notices order, when they notices patterns, then clear realization is that Divine Work is orderly, solid, logical and therefore it's worthy to understand how gods organised world. And that's how natural philosophy starts, and it's mother of science.

Sure most people would not care about gravity, but most people don't care about intricacies of science nowadays. Normies are normies - it's elites who births wizards and philosophers, priests and engineers, scientists and occultists. And there is no reason for those elites to ditch natural philosophy because 99% of reality is still works according to it. Vampire may be perished, but gravity is gonna stuck with us for a long time

QuotePoint of order. You say "magician," but at that time the field of Chymistry (i.e. alchemy on its way to becoming chemistry) was a part of what were known as the natural magics (the precursors of astronomy, biology, botony, chemistry and physics; a literal example of Clarke's inverse law; any sufficiently studied magic becomes science).

Sir Newton was not an occultist attempting to summon up or bargain with spirits when not working on optics, gravity and calculus; he was also a proto-chemist.

Correct but also ancient term magician and magic is more linked to discovering secrets of Cosmos, than to mere bargaining with spirits. Magi were philosopher-priests, serious business.
Of course in practice as many actual occultists in history shows you can be religious (most of right-hand occult traditions seen itself as esoteric elite of Christendom), magician in spiritual sense (we force demons to do our bidding, by secret equation revealed by God to King Solomon, therefore decreasing demonic influence on normal people) and scientists (we discover healing potency of herbs by scrupulous research). Those general positions are not necessarily opposite.

Of course for Newton who was Protestant Unitarian with some deistic practices probably spirit-working would be nonsensical and I agree in practical sense (but fantasy worlds can work differently).