There are three assumptions that were required for the Scientific Revolution to start.

1. The world works off of invariable rational laws that work the same throughout time and space.
2. These rational laws are contingent, not necessary. The world could work off of any set of laws, you need to go out and find which set it works under (through empirical observation and study).
3. These rational laws are consistently discoverable by humans.

Not all cultures believed this. The vast majority didn't. For instance, here's what Buddhism's response to those 3 assumptions would look like.

1. No it doesn't. There is nothing unchanging. Period.
2. See above. There are no rational laws to discover.
3. 'True reality' doesn't exist.

In the worlds you have made or played in, do these three assumptions apply? Are you comfortable playing in a world where they don't? Why or why not?

This is interesting. I think most of the worlds I've GM'd or played in tended to be ones in which those three points were more or less viable in theory. In practice, the meddling of divinities, reality warpers, and the like, was a factor. Also knowledge being power, and power being hoarded got in the way most of the time. That and wanting to play in a relatively static setting, sometimes, for fantasy sword and board.

If there are no rational natural laws, how do people anticipate the future? How do they make decisions about anything? Like, what if I swung a sword at someone, and it made breakfast?

We're talking about fantasy settings right?

I'll assume yes.

Theoretically yes

In practice Magic has usurped the place of Science and people are really busy trying to discover why it works how it works. I mean other than by accident what other way are any new spells created if not?

IIRC there was a product about a magic revolution, don't own it so IDK if it deals with a revolution like what we're talking about.

Given that Magic is real I would posit such a revolution anyway.

Afterwards maybe the same type of inquisitive minds could apply themselves to other endeavors.

Now, if Magic is real why would anyone think that things fall down for any other reason than because the gods will it?
Why would anyone think that a spyglass is anything else than magic?

Interesting questions and would love to see a setting trying to answer them and combine Magic and Science beyond the lazy and tired: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

But I won't be the one to do it, already too many things cooking and in the backburner.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 10:16:13 PM
If there are no rational natural laws, how do people anticipate the future? How do they make decisions about anything? Like, what if I swung a sword at someone, and it made breakfast?

So, potential bit of reading comprehension failure here. Or else an issue in imagination. No rational laws at all vs no...

1. Invariable Natural Laws


So like if every however many years the universe switched it all up in random fashion, you might have to relearn things a fair bit. Or you might die due to life not being possible, but that wouldn't last forever either. At best you might be able to deduce trends within the current cycle, but if it's seconds and not years then even that's not a given.

2. All Necessary, And Not Contingent Laws

If the laws of physics vary, whether locally or whatever, that can be a problem with deducing them, especially with respect to generalizability. What if reality warpers or local divinities anchor things in place, for instance, as in Mage or the Dresden Files, but that's not even the universal base paradigm? Or what if the laws of physics have a ridiculous number of contingencies and specific things that can happen to change them? Maybe things seem relatively random due to a large number of complications that make deduction difficult. Or what if there are more contingencies than humans can viably comprehend? Ex nihilo, with any number of theoretically possibilities for 'verse size and laws of physics, I'd almost expect an infinite number could well be a thing.

3. Rational Laws Constantly Discoverable By Humans

If the laws are irrational, then logical analysis is bunk to the entire scenario. Likewise, if humans can't consistently make some degree of progress, the scientific revolution probably cannot advance.


Not sure if I interpreted all of this 100%, but should get you a bit closer to the original question's intent.

I assume that the question is for a fantasy setting.

For my fantasy setting, at least some development is possible.  I've laid out a timeline of the rise and fall of cultures and empires as well as major achievements.  This timeline runs up to a pre-industrial revolution level of tech and understanding.  How far beyond that could they go is a good question.

A lot of my setting is built upon various mythologies of how the world was made, how it works, how it's structured, and how a group of god like supernatural being actively operate to keep it running.  Alchemy is very real in a sense that the modern idea of chemistry isn't.  The world is flat and the sun and moon are smaller objects that are temporarily created by magic and set on a trajectory by a supernatural being to provide light, warmth, and guidance.  Bodies of water are literally gateways to a transitional space where you could come out in other place in the world, other worlds, or other planes of existence.  Elves are real and live in a different realm and only come to the human realm by performing forbidden magic rituals. 

If there was possible some form of scientific revolution, it would look radically different than our own. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 10:38:33 PM

If the laws of physics vary, whether locally or whatever, that can be a problem with deducing them, especially with respect to generalizability.

I mean, that's what we have now. So then the study of the ways those laws change just becomes part of physics.

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 11:06:04 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 10:38:33 PM

If the laws of physics vary, whether locally or whatever, that can be a problem with deducing them, especially with respect to generalizability.

I mean, that's what we have now. So then the study of the ways those laws change just becomes part of physics.

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.

The point is that if taken to a greater extent than we have here, (I assume you mean micro vs macro or across dimensions or something) that science/scientific revolution becomes potentially less viable as a development. Unless you actually think the world is held together by reality warpers and that I can find a different set of physics laws in one town as in another. Or that over a matter of years our current understanding of gravity will change not to become more accurate, but because the laws actually shifted, or because Bahamut willed it so. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 11:12:32 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 11:06:04 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 10:38:33 PM

If the laws of physics vary, whether locally or whatever, that can be a problem with deducing them, especially with respect to generalizability.

I mean, that's what we have now. So then the study of the ways those laws change just becomes part of physics.

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.

The point is that if taken to a greater extent than we have here, (I assume you mean micro vs macro or across dimensions or something) that science/scientific revolution becomes potentially less viable as a development. Unless you actually think the world is held together by reality warpers and that I can find a different set of physics laws in one town as in another. Or that over a matter of years our current understanding of gravity will change not to become more accurate, but because the laws actually shifted, or because Bahamut willed it so. 

You can't find different natural laws in two sets of towns. But if you could, in a fantasy world, how would anyone survive? How drastically can they change? If the rate is limited, and somewhat understandable, isn't that just a different set of laws?

Like, could you wake up, and suddenly copper oxide is a deadly poison and starts killing people left and right who live near mineral sources? Or is this more like, "What is reality were based on storytelling?" or "What if natural forces could be significantly powerful deities?" In those cases, there are rational natural laws, they are just different than the ones we are used to.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 11:19:59 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 11:12:32 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 11:06:04 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 10:38:33 PM

If the laws of physics vary, whether locally or whatever, that can be a problem with deducing them, especially with respect to generalizability.

I mean, that's what we have now. So then the study of the ways those laws change just becomes part of physics.

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.

The point is that if taken to a greater extent than we have here, (I assume you mean micro vs macro or across dimensions or something) that science/scientific revolution becomes potentially less viable as a development. Unless you actually think the world is held together by reality warpers and that I can find a different set of physics laws in one town as in another. Or that over a matter of years our current understanding of gravity will change not to become more accurate, but because the laws actually shifted, or because Bahamut willed it so. 

You can't find different natural laws in two sets of towns. But if you could, in a fantasy world, how would anyone survive? How drastically can they change? If the rate is limited, and somewhat understandable, isn't that just a different set of laws?

Like, could you wake up, and suddenly copper oxide is a deadly poison and starts killing people left and right who live near mineral sources? Or is this more like, "What is reality were based on storytelling?" or "What if natural forces could be significantly powerful deities?" In those cases, there are rational natural laws, they are just different than the ones we are used to.

Again, less focus on rational vs "irrational" laws (though when that does go out the window I guess there's really no way of postulating what would or would not be the case, since logic explicitly would not apply within said scenario) and more focus on the specific 3 premises stated, if subverted, making scientific development likely harder and potentially even the scientific revolution nonviable within a societal context.

As for survival or storytelling in such a world, sapient life might well be a localized pocket phenomenon (ex:points of light type setting), or it might just be that variance tends to be relatively nonlethal in nature via DM fiat. Could be interesting narratively, for instance, if every x number of years stuff shifts, too, in that there might be entire cycles where life is nonviable, or alternatively cycles in which life is still viable between shifts, but things start working weird. Would make an upcoming cycle shift very exciting and potentially terrifying to the characters, I guess. These are all just possibilities, but it does show that you can still tell a story or imagine a world where some of those 3 assumptions are gone or bent. In such an instance, I can get, as stated earlier, where the scientific revolution as we now know it might not happen. Heck, it took quite some time to reach where it is within our own world without such complications.

So, as part of this thought experiment, I'll ask, how does culture survive in such a world? Not just a technological revolution, but any sort of stable reservoir of knowledge, culture, or aesthetics?

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 11:33:19 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 11:19:59 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 11:12:32 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 11:06:04 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 10:38:33 PM

If the laws of physics vary, whether locally or whatever, that can be a problem with deducing them, especially with respect to generalizability.

I mean, that's what we have now. So then the study of the ways those laws change just becomes part of physics.

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.

The point is that if taken to a greater extent than we have here, (I assume you mean micro vs macro or across dimensions or something) that science/scientific revolution becomes potentially less viable as a development. Unless you actually think the world is held together by reality warpers and that I can find a different set of physics laws in one town as in another. Or that over a matter of years our current understanding of gravity will change not to become more accurate, but because the laws actually shifted, or because Bahamut willed it so. 

You can't find different natural laws in two sets of towns. But if you could, in a fantasy world, how would anyone survive? How drastically can they change? If the rate is limited, and somewhat understandable, isn't that just a different set of laws?

Like, could you wake up, and suddenly copper oxide is a deadly poison and starts killing people left and right who live near mineral sources? Or is this more like, "What is reality were based on storytelling?" or "What if natural forces could be significantly powerful deities?" In those cases, there are rational natural laws, they are just different than the ones we are used to.

Again, less focus on rational vs "irrational" laws (though when that does go out the window I guess there's really no way of postulating what would or would not be the case, since logic explicitly would not apply within said scenario) and more focus on the specific 3 premises stated, if subverted, making scientific development likely harder and potentially even the scientific revolution nonviable within a societal context.

As for survival or storytelling in such a world, sapient life might well be a localized pocket phenomenon (ex:points of light type setting), or it might just be that variance tends to be relatively nonlethal in nature via DM fiat. Could be interesting narratively, for instance, if every x number of years stuff shifts, too, in that there might be entire cycles where life is nonviable, or alternatively cycles in which life is still viable between shifts, but things start working weird. Would make an upcoming cycle shift very exciting and potentially terrifying to the characters, I guess. These are all just possibilities, but it does show that you can still tell a story or imagine a world where some of those 3 assumptions are gone or bent. In such an instance, I can get, as stated earlier, where the scientific revolution as we now know it might not happen. Heck, it took quite some time to reach where it is within our own world without such complications.

You could look into the mythology of cultures without these three assumptions to see what it would look like. Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, most pagan mythologies...etc.

I mean, I think the Buddhist perspective on #1 is dharma. That's what dharma is.

Quote from: pawsplay on December 01, 2023, 12:13:14 AM
So, as part of this thought experiment, I'll ask, how does culture survive in such a world? Not just a technological revolution, but any sort of stable reservoir of knowledge, culture, or aesthetics?

Yeah, some IRL cultures and religions can kinda answer this question.

That said, could also depend upon the world the DM envisions if we're doing the whole ttrpg framing bit. Might be it varies locally. Might be that it's cultivated or outright dominated by the whims of deities and reality warpers. Could be that it lasts one or more cycles before implosion, and after that it's up to the guesses of archeologists as to what if anything came before. If the shifts are nonlethal and just between localities, could be it lasts and develops just fine for the most part. Or maybe you get pastafarian stuff where everything cultural was created last week, along with large portions of all that is. Or maybe it does whatever it does due to DM fiat. I'm sure you can think of alternative scenarios, but yeah. Plenty of possibilities, I'd suspect.

There are two different things at play, depending on how strict of a line you draw on the question:

1. Is it never possible for a science or even logic to assert itself in the world?  Then there has to be active supernatural factors, in the original sense of "supernatural"--above nature.  Even then, there can be a kind of logic based on trends--e.g. all science becomes anthropology and psychology, with a lot of guesswork and correlations mixed in with the stricter science.

2. It is possible, but highly unlikely, for science to assert itself over a much greater period than we experienced in our own history. This is much easier to produce, especially if you don't have things like immortal elves and magic as an alternative to science. 

Even in our own history, there is really no consistent answer to how far back we were set by the downfall of the Roman empire or various chaotic endings to Chinese dynasties or other such.  Or maybe the churn was necessary for later growth.  Arguably, the worst hits of the bubonic plague in Western Europe set back the Enlightenment 300 years, though the changes in values of labor may have been necessary for changing attitudes that led to exploration. The Little Ice Age was devastating, with whole communities wiped out.  How does Central Europe go in the medieval period without all the various invasions?  That's no magic at all--just people and nature doing their thing.  Nor is it limited to those periods.  See Bronze Age Collapse.  Major Krakatoa-like eruptions can cause a world-wide, decade-long setback. Throw more of those in the mix, eventually you get one at the wrong time that combines with other factors to be even worse.

In my own recent settings, it's the second option.  It's theoretically possible for science to assert itself in the modern sense of the term, at least in some aspects, eventually. Practically, it's never going to happen for thousands of years.  I've got more than a fair share of people and nature doing their thing, along with monsters, magic, and rather restrained and reserved deities doing their thing. Elves rarely live longer than 150 years.  With communities coming and going, a lot of places only have myths and legends for their own areas even 200-400 years ago.  That's a lot of shake up. 

Then on top of that, I've made magic have exactly one unexplained "subnatural" characteristic:  Magical effects are broadly reproducible, but every bit of magic comes from a personal connection to a source, and that connection is never exactly the same.  You can learn 2 +2 = 4 and teach it to someone else.  It works the same for them as it does for you.  You can learn to shoot a bit of fire from your fingertip.  Others can too, and it appears to be very similar.  But you can't really teach it to them, most of the time, partly because you don't fully understand how you do it, and partly because how you do it is not the same as how everyone else does it.  It's reproducible for you personally in the particulars but only reproducible for others in the abstract, and in occasional correlations, if you meet enough people who can do it.  Giving some stability and several centuries to explore it, someone might eventually get the answers to that, but if anyone has up until now, they've died in the turmoil before it could get shared around.  (Or maybe they kept it to themselves as a source of power.)  Is it biology, DNA, magical blood lines, environment, diet, god-given talent?  No one knows, and very few have the time to explore the question.

Then for the cherry on top, I threw in a bit of physics changes that I know roughly how they work, but aren't explained in the game world.  Making steel isn't possible without magic, for example.  And since the magic is personal, making steel is too. There is some scientific advancement possible in this area, with a lot of effort. The changes are mainly to give the world a fantastical feel and explain how any advanced equipment and processes can happen at all in a world with so much churn.