They both seem to be doing similar things from what I can see. If I want some state-of-the-art, challenge-based, blood-and-glory gaming, which one wins?

Two games enter! One game leaves!

Quote from: droogThey both seem to be doing similar things from what I can see.

You mean, like a car and a blender?  They are muy diferentes, me heartie lad.

Iron Gauntlets is an old-school-feeling FRPG with new-ish rules; it's built to be serviceable and customizable.

Iron Heroes, from what I gather, is a sword-and-sorcery, low-magic d20 expansion.

Rotwang's characterization of Iron Heroes is off, but his sentiment is right.

Iron Gauntlets is solid fantasy play, complete with magic and fighters and clerics and what you expect. The system is simple, but complex enough to keep you interested in it. It's a logical extension from early D&D combined with modern-day game streamlining.

Iron Heroes is also awesome. It is a fine-tuned OGL (read: d20) game focused on tactical combat. Characters are much more powerful physically than in D&D, and they gain tokens in play for certain types of actions. These tokens are spent, like power-ups in a game, to perform special or enhanced actions. It is very low magic, and presents a gritty world, but one in which your characters rule. It is the most Conan-esque traditional RPG, and that is some seriously high praise from me, considering the breadth and depth of my Robert E. Howard scholarship.

Quote from: droogTwo games enter! One game leaves!

Iron Hero circled to the left attempting to judge his opponent. "This shouldn't be too hard- it was after all just a pair of over designed gloves", he whispered under his breath.

But was that before 'Left Gauntlet" swung around behind him. Now he had to defend himself from two sides as 'Right Gauntlet' made an obscene gesture in his direction.

"Sigh" thought Iron Hero, "who thinks up these lame matches anyway?"

Excellent, Clinton. Would you be able to tell me what I would need for playing IH? Is it one book or more?

Which of these games do you enjoy most and why? If I like the way Sorcerer does S&S, is IH going to do anything for me? Similarly, what does IG give me that any other D&D clone doesn't?

I have no clue what Iron Gauntlet even is. But:

Quote from: droogWould you be able to tell me what I would need for playing IH? Is it one book or more?

There is one main book, a few supplements (Bestiary and Mastering Iron Heroes), and a few third party adventures.

As the author, Mearls, swings by here often, he should be able to tell you a bit more.

Quote from: droogExcellent, Clinton. Would you be able to tell me what I would need for playing IH? Is it one book or more?

Which of these games do you enjoy most and why? If I like the way Sorcerer does S&S, is IH going to do anything for me? Similarly, what does IG give me that any other D&D clone doesn't?

I like them both for very different purposes, but I'm running an IG game on Sunday, and I haven't run an IH game yet (but will - I don't buy games I don't play.) You should only need the main book for IH, but the "Mastering Iron Heroes" book and the bestiary will help you. I recommend getting the main book in print and the "Mastering" book in PDF, as it's very slim and most of the knowledge won't be needed to reference at the game table. As for the bestiary, I just use my Monster Manual, but I hear the bestiary is very good.

As to your specific questions:

- If you like the way Sorcerer does S&S, will you like IH? Maybe not. I like them both, but again, for very different reasons. Sorcerer is my favorite game for Conan-like stories. IH is my favorite traditional role-playing game for Conan-like stories. The reasons are very different.

- What does IG give you that other D&D clones don't? Well, from a mechanical point of view, a skill-based system with no levels (but kind of classes.) I feel like it gives me a coherent, customizable system that doesn't insult my intelligence and allows me to make just about any character I'd want to play. I think customizability is an over-looked part of game development, and IG gives me plenty of that. I've already started writing a spiritual-attribute type of modification for it.

I Like IG more, but then for the most part I'm a rules lite type.

IH just seems to be a more complex D&D with almost no magic. It also seems like all the token pushing and what not would be a little much. of course I haven't played it yet so ,maybe in practice it isn't so bad.

I'm not ignoring the rest of you, but Clinton is writing the fullest answers so I'm mainly addressing him.

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonSorcerer is my favorite game for Conan-like stories. IH is my favorite traditional role-playing game for Conan-like stories. The reasons are very different.

Getting away from 'traditional' and 'indie' for a second, could you please explain those reasons in objective terms? What does Iron Heroes give me that I might want to play it? Why do you play it if another game is your favourite? Eg is it for convenience or social reasons etc? Or is it a property of the game itself?

Looks to me like IG is on the ropes. Can it come back with any more?

What's Iron Gauntlets?

Hi Max!

Iron Gauntlets is a fantasy game from Politically Incorrect Games. It's a light, flexible, extremely customizable system using small dice pools. It's designed as a game you could use in a tradititonal D&D type setting, but is sharply inclined to the simple rather than the complex. I use it wherever most folks would use D&D.

-mice

Quote from: flyingmiceHi Max!

Iron Gauntlets is a fantasy game from Politically Incorrect Games. It's a light, flexible, extremely customizable system using small dice pools. It's designed as a game you could use in a tradititonal D&D type setting, but is sharply inclined to the simple rather than the complex. I use it wherever most folks would use D&D.

-mice

Cool, thanks.

Quote from: droogGetting away from 'traditional' and 'indie' for a second, could you please explain those reasons in objective terms? What does Iron Heroes give me that I might want to play it? Why do you play it if another game is your favourite? Eg is it for convenience or social reasons etc? Or is it a property of the game itself?

Looks to me like IG is on the ropes. Can it come back with any more?

Hey, what the heck, man? I feel interrogated. I'll restate clearly.

Iron Heroes is awesome combat turned up to 11. Magic is (generally) for the evil bad guys, and you should be able to leap from stone to stone and decapitate two guys at a time. It is heavily combat-oriented d20.

You mentioned other games first, but here's my clear comparison. Sorcerer captures the themes of S&S perfectly. Iron Heroes captures Conan gutting a fool perfectly.

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Iron Gauntlets - well, I think I gave you a ton of good things about it, so I don't understand "on the ropes," unless those aren't your thing.

This is my overview, for what it's worth, of IH from the "Games You've Heard of but Know Nothing About" thread:

Iron Heroes is a d20 variant. The character classes are designed under the assumption that PCs will not be using magic items to increase their powers and abilities. So it becomes more about the character's inherent abilities rather than what stuff he has.

The combat system is designed so that characters can perform all manner of stunts and maneuvers. Stunts are things like throwing dirt in an opponent's eyes, swinging from chandeliers, etc.

Most - but not all - of the classes can accumulate tokens with certain actions. These tokens (an abstract concept, by the way, not actual game world items) are often required to perform some of the abilities and powers a given class has. Example: the armiger, a class that is focused on wearing armor, accumulates tokens as the PC's armor absorbs damage from attacks. These tokens can then be used to make the character harder to hit, or to be even more able to absorb damage, or to make devastating counterattacks - these are abilities unique to the armiger. Each class has its own set of powers and abilities that can be used by the accumulation and spending of tokens. Tokens must be used pretty quickly, so a character can't just hoard them.

Fighting classes are the main focus of the game. Magic is dangerous and unpredictable. There is a magic-using class, called the arcanist, which is there because, well, someone would've asked for it if it wasn't there. Skills and hit points are handled differently than in regular d20 - but, y'know, mearls, who posts to this forum, is the guy who designed the game. With any luck, he'll show up and explain things better than I could.

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonYou mentioned other games first, but here's my clear comparison. Sorcerer captures the themes of S&S perfectly. Iron Heroes captures Conan gutting a fool perfectly.

Spot on.