Quote from: Chris24601 on January 25, 2025, 11:50:06 AMI'd say private virtual games skew more female too. I'd say the number of women in virtual campaigns is about twice what it is in live play.

Now, that generally means about a third of the group being women virtually vs. 15-20% face-to-face so it's not like it's a majority even there, but it's definitely more.

I'd guess something about the anonymity of voice-only and screen names makes it less potentially stigmatizing and, while I haven't gone out of my way to check, most of my online gaming is during weeknights and I wonder if the female population falls off for weekend games.

Fair enough and 1/3 would be reasonable (and I wouldn't have bothered posting in this thread if that was what WOTC was claiming).  I'd have zero issue with being the only guy in an online or in person campaign as long as I was enjoying myself in the rules, setting, and the tableside experience.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 25, 2025, 11:50:06 AMI'd say private virtual games skew more female too. I'd say the number of women in virtual campaigns is about twice what it is in live play.

Now, that generally means about a third of the group being women virtually vs. 15-20% face-to-face so it's not like it's a majority even there, but it's definitely more.

I'd guess something about the anonymity of voice-only and screen names makes it less potentially stigmatizing and, while I haven't gone out of my way to check, most of my online gaming is during weeknights and I wonder if the female population falls off for weekend games.

It's hard to say. There's a lot of varying anecdotes and data.

I don't trust public statements from any large corporation. However, corporations are also going to have some disgruntled ex-employees willing to dish out dirt on them. For a typical corporation, there are a lot of these.

The best measured number that I know of is the 19% measured in 1999. That's the only case I know where a statistically representative population was polled, and results were officially released to the public. If the public results were blatantly falsified in that case, there has been a lot of time and a lot of ex-employees who could call that out.

The releases after that are less reliable, to my mind. I suspect that WotC has collected better data, but they haven't made them public. When they release more limited information, like their release of some online play statistics a few years ago, that seems more suspect.

A few other observations:

1) Generally speaking, convention attendees aren't necessarily a good measure of the playing population. In any field, conventions are more about the hard-core audience and not about the casual audience. Similar goes for game store play - it's not necessarily the same trends as at-home play.

2) What hobbies are considered attractive to the opposite sex also isn't a good measure of participation. For example, knitting or needlepoint is likely not considered attractive to either sex. i.e. Men who do knitting aren't considered more attractive to women, and women who do knitting aren't considered more attractive to men. Nevertheless, it is a common hobby.


To add my personal experience, which I don't consider these any more or less reliable than anyone else's... My current group is 3 out of 6 women. None of the women go to game conventions or play in game stores. Also, as an observation on the younger generation, my son's stepsister plays with a predominantly female group. I don't think she has ever been to a game convention either - while my son has gone to a lot of game conventions with me when he was growing up. (He's 24, she's 20 now, I think.)

I don't know enough about the bigger picture to tell. From my understanding, this forum is close to 100% male, so that will skew anecdotal experience. I could believe the female participation is anywhere from a third to a half.

Quote from: Man at Arms on January 24, 2025, 05:33:10 PMI'm sure that in certain locations, or amongst certain groups, there are more female players than what is normally seen elsewhere. 

On the other hand, there are likely many groups, where 25% female would be considered a high number.

Agreed.  The school-based D&D club I run with about 50 kids is probably 35-40% female.  A couple of the campaign groups are majority female.  But it's still mostly boys.

Also, one thing I have noticed is that, while the number of girls has increased, they are also more likely to drop out.  The boys will play all three or four years, while some of the girls are in for a few sessions or one year, then they disappear...

According to this article, "According to Wizards' internal studies of the player population, 60% of D&D players are male, 39% are female, and 1% identify otherwise" That's supposedly from January 2023.

I just find it hard to believe it's selling so well compared to the early days of D&D. What stores sell it? Back in the day, you'd find it in book stores and toy stores along with hobby shops on top of game stores.
 
We don't even have toy stores anymore, not many book stores and hobby shops seems to double down on other stuff instead of games. At work  (Walmart) we had the starter set, but got clearanced)

Is it mostly online? That's the only thing I can think.

I mean, I realize the country is double the population that is 40 years ago. And they are likely selling internationally (especially online)

Quote from: JeremyR on January 26, 2025, 02:15:15 AMI just find it hard to believe it's selling so well compared to the early days of D&D. What stores sell it? Back in the day, you'd find it in book stores and toy stores along with hobby shops on top of game stores.
 
We don't even have toy stores anymore, not many book stores and hobby shops seems to double down on other stuff instead of games. At work  (Walmart) we had the starter set, but got clearanced)

Is it mostly online? That's the only thing I can think.

I mean, I realize the country is double the population that is 40 years ago. And they are likely selling internationally (especially online)

Amazon?

Quote from: JeremyR on January 26, 2025, 02:15:15 AMI just find it hard to believe it's selling so well compared to the early days of D&D. What stores sell it? Back in the day, you'd find it in book stores and toy stores along with hobby shops on top of game stores.
 
We don't even have toy stores anymore, not many book stores and hobby shops seems to double down on other stuff instead of games. At work  (Walmart) we had the starter set, but got clearanced)

Is it mostly online? That's the only thing I can think.

I mean, I realize the country is double the population that is 40 years ago. And they are likely selling internationally (especially online)

On that front, it's sold at Target, Walmart, Barnes and Noble, and of course Amazon. In addition to game stores, which get a three week jump on all that competition and special alternate covers to encourage suckers like me to buy it direct from the game store instead of cheaper on Amazon.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 26, 2025, 11:59:42 AMOn that front, it's sold at Target, Walmart, Barnes and Noble, and of course Amazon. In addition to game stores, which get a three week jump on all that competition and special alternate covers to encourage suckers like me to buy it direct from the game store instead of cheaper on Amazon.

Show some (self)respect!   You're not a sucker... You're a valued whale! 

Every game store I've been in generally has an "official 5e game" - mostly to generate sales of books.  2 or 3 various D20 games, and the odd old school game or one of the various clones, with maybe one in five players (at best) being female.

The problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition in an attempt to appeal to people who don't care about D&D, never cared about D&D and never will care about D&D.  The modern audience isn't coming no matter how many gay gnome kings they shove into adventures.  They don't care about ttrpgs and never will.  The few who even know or care about these changes only like them because they hate us and we don't like them.  They are just petty, vindictive, malicious people who want to dunk on "the chuds".  They like it that they are taking away and ruining our thing.  They don't actually care about the thing beyond that.  That they think they can take away D&D shows that they have no understanding of how this hobby even works.   

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition

The game is very much recognizable as D&D. It uses much the same system and plays in much the same way as it did last decade. Changing a few flavor bits doesn't alter that it is still D&D, but it might not be a D&D with the same flavor as the older stuff. You don't like the new flavor? OK, but New Coke is still Coke.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:03:43 AMThe game is very much recognizable as D&D.

I would say that stuff like Radiant Citadel and Strixhaven are practically unrecognizable from what D&D was up until a few years ago.  Maybe your games involved working as baristas but I don't remember anything like that.   

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 06:14:23 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:03:43 AMThe game is very much recognizable as D&D.

I would say that stuff like Radiant Citadel and Strixhaven are practically unrecognizable from what D&D was up until a few years ago.  Maybe your games involved working as baristas but I don't remember anything like that.   

If the customers have stats, you can still kill them and take their stuff, right?

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:18:53 AMIf the customers have stats, you can still kill them and take their stuff, right?

Let's play as baristas so we can kill the customers and take their stuff.  Maybe your D&D games were different from mine or any I ever saw.  I don't recall so much food centric content.  More going to dungeons and killing dragons.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition in an attempt to appeal to people who don't care about D&D, never cared about D&D and never will care about D&D.  The modern audience isn't coming no matter how many gay gnome kings they shove into adventures.  They don't care about ttrpgs and never will.  The few who even know or care about these changes only like them because they hate us and we don't like them.  They are just petty, vindictive, malicious people who want to dunk on "the chuds".  They like it that they are taking away and ruining our thing.  They don't actually care about the thing beyond that.  That they think they can take away D&D shows that they have no understanding of how this hobby even works.   

They're courting 11-14 year olds, not the pink haired angry adults you imagine they're courting.