Quote from: jeff37923 on January 27, 2025, 07:06:07 PMWait, are you all saying that a WotC source quoted by known WotC shill Mistwell, has discrepancies?

Say it ain't so.....

Jeff, he doesn't work for WOTC. He used to. He's no longer under any NDA. So when he did an interview, he was very frank with information people had not previously heard.

Yes, some of what he said is disputed by 1) prior numbers WOTC released, and 2) Mike Mearls, who also is an ex-employee (though more recently left WOTC).

People here appear to be believing the WOTC numbers (which said 39% women) over the ex-employee's numbers (who said 50%). And you are taking a cheap shot not even realizing it's not me believing WOTC (I have no idea which is right) it's YOU.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 27, 2025, 10:45:48 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition in an attempt to appeal to people who don't care about D&D, never cared about D&D and never will care about D&D.  The modern audience isn't coming no matter how many gay gnome kings they shove into adventures.  They don't care about ttrpgs and never will.  The few who even know or care about these changes only like them because they hate us and we don't like them.  They are just petty, vindictive, malicious people who want to dunk on "the chuds".  They like it that they are taking away and ruining our thing.  They don't actually care about the thing beyond that.  That they think they can take away D&D shows that they have no understanding of how this hobby even works.   

They're courting 11-14 year olds, not the pink haired angry adults you imagine they're courting.

Then WotC is doomed.  Because none of the 11-14 year-olds I have encountered want to play fantasy barista.  They want to kill monsters and take their stuff (even the girls).

Oh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

I mean, that attitude sure explains a lot about a lot of opinions found here.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 11:26:37 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 27, 2025, 10:45:48 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition in an attempt to appeal to people who don't care about D&D, never cared about D&D and never will care about D&D.  The modern audience isn't coming no matter how many gay gnome kings they shove into adventures.  They don't care about ttrpgs and never will.  The few who even know or care about these changes only like them because they hate us and we don't like them.  They are just petty, vindictive, malicious people who want to dunk on "the chuds".  They like it that they are taking away and ruining our thing.  They don't actually care about the thing beyond that.  That they think they can take away D&D shows that they have no understanding of how this hobby even works.   

They're courting 11-14 year olds, not the pink haired angry adults you imagine they're courting.

Then WotC is doomed.  Because none of the 11-14 year-olds I have encountered want to play fantasy barista.  They want to kill monsters and take their stuff (even the girls).

Oh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

I mean, that attitude sure explains a lot about a lot of opinions found here.

I'll trust my experience over your shilling any day of the week.  Why would I trust you, Winninger, or WotC?  Your attitude sure explains why a lot of people are ignoring those who demand they believe ideologically based assertions, and not their lying eyes...

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 11:26:37 PMOh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

His assertion has just as much basis as yours.

are they gonna deport that know nothing poser retard guy who said rule zero is shit, even though he went hard on shilling for shadowderp, which requires rule zero because of its one sentence ahem "rules"?

because that shit would break my fuckin heart.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 11:26:37 PMOh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

Welcome to the Internet! Come and take a seat (c)

People new to the hobby have no idea what a good product is because all they've ever seen is what WOTC puts out.  That's sad.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 28, 2025, 12:27:28 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 11:26:37 PMOh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

His assertion has just as much basis as yours.

Eirikrautha is the guy that repeatedly mentions that the multiple of anecdote =/= data, so his argument here seems out of place.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:03:43 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition

The game is very much recognizable as D&D. It uses much the same system and plays in much the same way as it did last decade. Changing a few flavor bits doesn't alter that it is still D&D, but it might not be a D&D with the same flavor as the older stuff. You don't like the new flavor? OK, but New Coke is still Coke.

Terrible analogy because the public DEMANDED Coca Cola switch back to the original recipe, and they did.

Much like D&D today: they fucked with the recipe and it's terrible.

Quote from: blackstone on January 28, 2025, 01:35:25 PMMuch like D&D today: they fucked with the recipe and it's terrible.

Wait, you don't like the Camel-Semen Shots from the gay dwarf baristas? I hear it gives you Advantage.

Quote from: tenbones on January 28, 2025, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: blackstone on January 28, 2025, 01:35:25 PMMuch like D&D today: they fucked with the recipe and it's terrible.

Wait, you don't like the Camel-Semen Shots from the gay dwarf baristas? I hear it gives you Advantage.

I just threw up in my mouth a little...

An Original Recipe fan...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 27, 2025, 11:54:30 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 11:26:37 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 27, 2025, 10:45:48 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition in an attempt to appeal to people who don't care about D&D, never cared about D&D and never will care about D&D.  The modern audience isn't coming no matter how many gay gnome kings they shove into adventures.  They don't care about ttrpgs and never will.  The few who even know or care about these changes only like them because they hate us and we don't like them.  They are just petty, vindictive, malicious people who want to dunk on "the chuds".  They like it that they are taking away and ruining our thing.  They don't actually care about the thing beyond that.  That they think they can take away D&D shows that they have no understanding of how this hobby even works.   

They're courting 11-14 year olds, not the pink haired angry adults you imagine they're courting.

Then WotC is doomed.  Because none of the 11-14 year-olds I have encountered want to play fantasy barista.  They want to kill monsters and take their stuff (even the girls).

Oh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

I mean, that attitude sure explains a lot about a lot of opinions found here.

I'll trust my experience over your shilling any day of the week.  Why would I trust you, Winninger, or WotC?  Your attitude sure explains why a lot of people are ignoring those who demand they believe ideologically based assertions, and not their lying eyes...

I never said or implied you should trust my personal experience. I never mentioned my personal experience.

I also didn't say you should trust WOTC. You in fact trusted them more than I did, by implication, when you agreed with their numbers over Winningers.

Winninger at least has zero reason to be lying about this particular topic right now. If anything, having been fired from WOTC and now competing with them, you'd think he'd have incentive to make them look bad, right?

So while I don't 100% trust what he says (Mike Mearls disputed one thing he said), I think he does know more than you would about their current audience having been privy to private data you have not had access to. He's also played the game in more places around the nation than you have, and more often than you have. So even just on personal experience, he'd know better.

If you'd like to know my own instincts on the matter, which should be taken with a grain of salt? I'd guess the WOTC 39% female number is likely more accurate and I think Winninger probably got that wrong. He probably confused it with 50% of the "new" audience is female, which isn't the "entire" audience.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 28, 2025, 12:27:28 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 27, 2025, 11:26:37 PMOh well YOU have not encountered it so it must not be happening. Because the entire fucking world revolves around your tiny bubble of experience, right?

His assertion has just as much basis as yours.

What assertion do you think I made? I didn't make any. I never once mentioned my personal experience as evidence for the mix of genders/sexes in the game. I've literally only played in LA for my experience with 5e so my experience is definitely not representative of the entire nation.

My "assertion" is just Winninger mentioned a 50% female number based on data he saw, and WOTC mentioned a 39% female number based on data they claimed supported that. That's it. I never made an assertion of my own. It's hilarious y'all think I am shilling for someone, when literally only you guys have made assertions, and they're all based on your personal experience and you outright state you're biased. You're the clear OSR anti-WOTC shills here. I didn't even focus on the male/female ratio when I posted the interview summary and didn't think that was an interesting claim he made.

Quote from: blackstone on January 28, 2025, 01:35:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:03:43 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:42:41 AMThe problem is that they are contorting the game almost beyond recognition

The game is very much recognizable as D&D. It uses much the same system and plays in much the same way as it did last decade. Changing a few flavor bits doesn't alter that it is still D&D, but it might not be a D&D with the same flavor as the older stuff. You don't like the new flavor? OK, but New Coke is still Coke.

Terrible analogy because the public DEMANDED Coca Cola switch back to the original recipe, and they did.

Much like D&D today: they fucked with the recipe and it's terrible.

It's beyond terrible. They took a fantastic compromise edition and filled it full of identity politics & a barely concealed hatred for long term fans of the game.