I think hardcore guys with some experience get into mechanics. For some of us, it's rather a passing phase - but that's your target demographic for big spenders on handbooks.

My preference is for the abstraction to be the ref's concern. That's the newb to whom the handbook needs to be frendly! You got it, so guess who's nominated to be GM and teach the players?

A fairly large text need not be offputting if it's clear that one is expected to start with just a little of it and add more gradually (perhaps over a span of years). A little more beats so little that it seems like "crippleware" advertising for the full version.

On the other hand, different people want more on different subjects. Maybe naval warfare and speculative trade are better saved for a supplement (or maybe not, but this just for example and depends on your primary target market).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;815465For example, take the 100 page rulebook of solid mechanics with no fluff and show that to some board gamers. See how complex they assess your thesis-length rulebook to be.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the point you're making, I feel it bears pointing out that, generally speaking, the most comprehensive, fully-featured board game in existence won't come within an astronomical unit of the breadth and depth of options for play presented by the average tabletop RPG. If I'm playing Settlers of Catan, I can't just say on my turn that my settlers have decided trade is for sucks and they're attacking another player's settlement to conquer them and take their resources.

If I may use a video game analogy, IMO this entire line of reasoning smacks of criticizing Morrowind because it isn't as simple and accessible as Smash Bros. when that's the entire bloody point.

Or maybe I'm just feeling grognard-y and reading some negative value into it that no one intends to be there.

Quote from: woodsmoke;815700Or maybe I'm just feeling grognard-y and reading some negative value into it that no one intends to be there.

There was a time when the RPG industry wasn't slavishly devoted to 400 page rulebooks. The Holmes Basic Set had 19 pages of rules.

I don't object to the 400 page behemoths. A large chunk of my gaming happens with the 400 page behemoths. But the industry used to have a lot more breadth in terms of its rules complexity.

The current RPG main stream is equivalent to the board game industry being composed exclusively of Twilight Imperium. Nothing wrong with a good game of TI, but there'd probably be a lot fewer new players entering the board game hobby if TI was the standard.

Quote from: woodsmoke;815700I feel it bears pointing out that, generally speaking, the most comprehensive, fully-featured board game in existence won't come within an astronomical unit of the breadth and depth of options for play presented by the average tabletop RPG. If I'm playing Settlers of Catan, I can't just say on my turn that my settlers have decided trade is for sucks and they're attacking another player's settlement to conquer them and take their resources.

But the stuff that we (well, I) want in a tabletop RPG aren't really provided by large amount of rules. Board games have to have fairly complete and precise rules, but an RPG can't ever cover all the possibilities of its subject matter precisely. It often seems that the rules are long just because of the fear that short rules would be seen as too simple a game, and the long rules are just a disguise on top of what is still pretty much a simple game.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;815702There was a time when the RPG industry wasn't slavishly devoted to 400 page rulebooks. The Holmes Basic Set had 19 pages of rules.

I don't object to the 400 page behemoths. A large chunk of my gaming happens with the 400 page behemoths. But the industry used to have a lot more breadth in terms of its rules complexity.

The current RPG main stream is equivalent to the board game industry being composed exclusively of Twilight Imperium. Nothing wrong with a good game of TI, but there'd probably be a lot fewer new players entering the board game hobby if TI was the standard.

1: Still, about half the book is not rules. Same with 5e, only more so.
And page count is deceptive. REALLY deceptive.
SPIs Universe is a measly 112 pages self contained. But it is really only 47 pages. 48 on is tables, stat blocks, more tables, maps, and a module. And of those 48 pages probably half is more stat blocks. So say 24 pages of rules? Heres the kicker. SPIs rules are incredibly dense. Tripple column per page and the rules themselves are simple, yet convoluted and refference table after table. Which gives the game its depth and why it has such a great star system gen system.

2: Theres ever been a back and fourth there. Complex, Not, in between. You'll get Universe or GURPS, but then you'll get The Fantasy Trip or BX, and AD&D and many others in the middle appearing dense. But not.

3: Its more a level of taste. Some players DEMAND complexity and more rules. They turn their noses up at anything that has a small page count. And blow a gasket when pointed out that page count does not equal complex. Some want simple games, REALLY simple games. The rest play what they play and gravitate to games that perk their interest. Most games are bought sight unseen anyhow and so rules depth is irrelevant to purchasing.

Over on BGG there are frequent threads complaining about game too complex, game too simple. Some people will not buy a game that is not done in 30 minutes or less. Others want epic 4 hour or more. And the rest in between.

Ideally you should be able to please both.  With character creation you can have a template stacking system built from the points system and with combat you can have scalable levels of detail that make the most detailed level a functional aspect of the basic system.  A magic system can use fundamental building blocks but have a fully expanded and detailed spell book.  Monster stat blocks should be built from character blocks but the monster blocks should be tight and simple:  How likely is it to attack, how fast can it move, what does it need to hit, how much damage can it do, how much damage can it take, does it have any loot.

One of the things I really like about the Tri-Stat system is that it's almost fractal; it has that 'choose depth' element.

Generally, you roll d20 + stat + skill.

Each point of stat costs 10 character points. Skills cost 1-6 character points, based on how important to the genre they are.

So you can describe a character as just three stats. But you can break a stat out into skills, getting more detail of good/bad.

If I remember right, there was also a very general sorcery power and then cheaper/more limited individual magical stuff.