Quote from: Ruprecht on August 26, 2024, 01:53:58 PMThe interesting thing is many OSR games attempt to emulate basic but everyone I knew in the day played AD&D and thought basic was for kids. Although house rules were the rule and that attitude is still very strong.

It's funny. Back in the day (early 80s), "basic" D&D was seen as that: Basic. TBH, it was the game that got me into the RPG hobby. Because I saw "Advanced" on the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons covers, most players saw it as the more "mature" game, myself included.

My friends and I didn't know at the time the reason WHY the distinction was made (now it's all well-documented). We just assumed that D&D was the less complicated version, and if you wanted to continue with that version, you could.

But if you wanted to play in ANY D&D at a game store, convention, or game club, AD&D was the game to play.

Quite frankly, it was a clever use of marketing by Gary and TSR. When most people think of D&D, they think of AD&D really. The iconic PHB cover always leaps to mind.

Quote from: Ruprecht on August 26, 2024, 01:53:58 PMThe interesting thing is many OSR games attempt to emulate basic but everyone I knew in the day played AD&D and thought basic was for kids. Although house rules were the rule and that attitude is still very strong.

That's because B/X is an objectively better mechanical framework to build off. AD&D just had the options.

As a few examples, B/X uses 10-second rounds. AD&D uses 1-minute rounds. The latter are just a mess to work with, trying to figure out how to merge theatre of the mind with the mechanics. Also attribute modifiers, 9-12 0, 13-15 +1, 16-17 +2 and 18 +3 across the board (except Charisma) is just way better than the mess that is the AD&D modifiers.

It's basically why for AD&D 1e you only have OSRIC, and nobody's interested in doing anything else with the AD&D 1e framework. By the point you've changed it to make it usable, you realize you were better off starting with B/X and changing that.

It's easier to add AD&D options (which is the strength of AD&D compared to B/X), such as race and class, more races, and more classes to a B/X framework than to clean up the rather messy AD&D foundations. This isn't to say B/X doesn't have its own problems, but it's a lot easier to clean up.

I think overall the underlying issue with OSR is it's like Linux/open source software: tons of options are good for publishers, but bad for consumers because they are overwhelmed with choice.  Just ask "I'm interested in getting into OSR style games, but which" and you'll get a laundry list of options that make you walk away and pine for the "simplicity" of just picking up the D&D brand, whether you like WotC or hate them.

Quote from: Nobleshield on August 27, 2024, 08:41:49 AMI think overall the underlying issue with OSR is it's like Linux/open source software: tons of options are good for publishers, but bad for consumers because they are overwhelmed with choice.  Just ask "I'm interested in getting into OSR style games, but which" and you'll get a laundry

It is a feature not a bug.

Quote from: Nobleshield on August 27, 2024, 08:41:49 AMlist of options that make you walk away and pine for the "simplicity" of just picking up the D&D brand, whether you like WotC or hate them.

The problem is that there are hundreds of new releases every week across systems and genres. Boardgames and wargames have it worse. In short, is not an OSR thing, it is an internet and digital technology thing that caused the capital threshold for publishing to fall dramatically.

Unless you are one of a dozen or so game companies that have enough volume to pursue mass-market channels with traditional distributors and stores everybody in the same boat as far as trying to market and differentiate themselves.

The OSR, being the kaleidoscope that it is, produces material for nearly everybody. Often, several alternatives are used to target the same niche. In contrast, systems and genres dominated by a single individual or company that controls the IP tend to only have one creative vision or, at best, a narrow range.

It messy but it better than the alternative.

In my opinion, it wasn't a "feature" in the "year of Linux" (which has yet to manifest 20 years later), nor is it with OSR.

Yet, Linux is the very thing that powers the technology that allows you to share your post. And the OSR is still chugging along 18 years later despite numerous comments about its flaws and predictions of its death.

And also incidentally outselling D&D 5e on DriveThruRPG.

Don't be dense.  You know exactly what I mean.  There's a reason Windows still dominates computers outside of servers.

Quote from: estar on August 27, 2024, 09:58:54 AMYet, Linux is the very thing that powers the technology that allows you to share your post. And the OSR is still chugging along 18 years later despite numerous comments about its flaws and predictions of its death.

And also incidentally outselling D&D 5e on DriveThruRPG.

With WOTC going more and more digital and trending toward subscription models and endless microtransactions, the OSR will only continue to grow and flourish. People will always want games and accessories that they can purchase and actually own.

Quote from: Nobleshield on August 27, 2024, 10:09:38 AMDon't be dense.  You know exactly what I mean.  There's a reason Windows still dominates computers outside of servers.

It about what you consider to be the "victory conditions" in the scenario. The OSR is not playing the same game to "win" as Wizards needs to play in order to "win" with D&D 5e. Because they are playing different games it possible for both to "win".

The same with Microsoft/Windows versus Linux. Which is why both are still thriving.  Speaking as a software developer with over three decades of experience working with Windows based vertical market applications and programmable metal cutting machine controls.

Pet peeve or failure of perception on my part but a lot of so called osr stuff appears to somehow be, to me at least, incomplete or unfinished or sparse perhaps...dunno can't put my finger on it exactly. I know I'm not the target audience for shadowdark for example, but i can't help but feel that if i published a book in big font like that with such short descriptions of things as the few examples of the material that i've seen that most would call it an incomplete fantasy heartbreaker and accuse me of trying to hide behind "rulings not rules" as cover when the truth is i just didn't put more than two sentences of thought into describing how a mechanic interacts with the rest of the system.

To put it another way, its the can bilbo trip smaug with a polearm thing, where a simple mechanic for tripping is shat out in one or two sentences and no thought is given to how it will produce absurd in-universe results if you do not flesh that out into a couple paragraphs explaining how it differs if the opponents are of differing sizes, using differing weapons or armor, and or benefitting from spells or magic items like a ring of free action.

I can appreciate shadowdark for example for luring 5e gamers more toward emergent gameplay centered on delving, its valuable for that alone, i am not shitting on it in the least...and because it serves as a path to osr games in a sense i would not say it isnt osr or adjacent, i am saying that it seems many of these games, not just shadowdark, leave me hungry still as it were.

Like how rules cyclopedia or osric are fairly sufficient on their own, or feel that way, like anything else is an optional add-on for them...while many of these other titles feel to me like an early access eagle dynamics flight sim module..."when will the terrain mapping radar and jdams be added" or "next update we get the lima hellfires and fire control radar added guys!"...as if i NEED dlc somehow.

Quote from: Nobleshield on August 27, 2024, 08:41:49 AMI think overall the underlying issue with OSR is it's like Linux/open source software: tons of options are good for publishers, but bad for consumers because they are overwhelmed with choice.  Just ask "I'm interested in getting into OSR style games, but which" and you'll get a laundry list of options that make you walk away and pine for the "simplicity" of just picking up the D&D brand, whether you like WotC or hate them.

So, a monopoly is the ultimate good for consumers right?

You can't be this dumb.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on August 27, 2024, 11:22:55 AMPet peeve or failure of perception on my part but a lot of so called osr stuff appears to somehow be, to me at least, incomplete or unfinished or sparse perhaps...dunno can't put my finger on it exactly. I know I'm not the target audience for shadowdark for example, but i can't help but feel that if i published a book in big font like that with such short descriptions of things as the few examples of the material that i've seen that most would call it an incomplete fantasy heartbreaker and accuse me of trying to hide behind "rulings not rules" as cover when the truth is i just didn't put more than two sentences of thought into describing how a mechanic interacts with the rest of the system.

To put it another way, its the can bilbo trip smaug with a polearm thing, where a simple mechanic for tripping is shat out in one or two sentences and no thought is given to how it will produce absurd in-universe results if you do not flesh that out into a couple paragraphs explaining how it differs if the opponents are of differing sizes, using differing weapons or armor, and or benefitting from spells or magic items like a ring of free action.

I can appreciate shadowdark for example for luring 5e gamers more toward emergent gameplay centered on delving, its valuable for that alone, i am not shitting on it in the least...and because it serves as a path to osr games in a sense i would not say it isnt osr or adjacent, i am saying that it seems many of these games, not just shadowdark, leave me hungry still as it were.

Like how rules cyclopedia or osric are fairly sufficient on their own, or feel that way, like anything else is an optional add-on for them...while many of these other titles feel to me like an early access eagle dynamics flight sim module..."when will the terrain mapping radar and jdams be added" or "next update we get the lima hellfires and fire control radar added guys!"...as if i NEED dlc somehow.

You don't need DLC, what you need is to make those rulings.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2024, 12:04:08 PMyou need is to make those rulings.

Sometimes I think the entire evolution of D&D is trying to create a decent middle ground between B/X and AD&D.

Streamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 27, 2024, 01:12:14 PMSometimes I think the entire evolution of D&D is trying to create a decent middle ground between B/X and AD&D.

Streamlined like B/X but full of details and options like 1e. No other version of D&D managed to be a straightforward as B/X IMO; I often call it "minimum viable D&D".

If I were to write down MY perfect version of D&D it would be OSE but without race as class, a minimal skill list, only one ST and only to 10th level.