Stumbled across this this morning, and thought it was pretty interesting how it was playing out thus far.  At the time I write this, it looks like the most popular settings are:  Original Boxed Set Greyhawk (me too), Mystara, Planescape, Forgotten Realms (original and 3e) and Dark Sun.  No real surprises, except for perhaps the last one there--I had never thought of Dark Sun (and perhaps Planescape) as being as popular as those others, but there you go.  Interesting poll, as it divvys up settings by edition--smart, since (for example) the original Forgotten Realms is completely different than what we saw for, say, 3e.

I know a lot of people who are fans of Dark Sun. Being so different from most other D&D settings (read: not a clone of Faerun or Greyhawk) is part of the appeal, in my opinion.

Quote from: JongWKI know a lot of people who are fans of Dark Sun. Being so different from most other D&D settings (read: not a clone of Faerun or Greyhawk) is part of the appeal, in my opinion.

I'm sure you're correct.  It's just one of those "in my experience" things.

The interesting thing to me, Zach, is how it's so different than what WotC must think it is - that is to kill off Living Greyhawk and going with Living Realms.

The argument has always been that Realms was far more popular - based on book sales, etc.

I'm more and more of the speculative opinion that it's really all about killing off a property still regarded as a Gygax idea.

I mean, in that poll it has, counting all incarnations, over 50% - by itself.

Quote from: James J SkachThe interesting thing to me, Zach, is how it's so different than what WotC must think it is - that is to kill off Living Greyhawk and going with Living Realms.

The argument has always been that Realms was far more popular - based on book sales, etc.

I'm more and more of the speculative opinion that it's really all about killing off a property still regarded as a Gygax idea.

I mean, in that poll it has, counting all incarnations, over 50% - by itself.

The only poll worth anything is sales figures.  Why?  Well... lets say that there are 50 000 fans of Property A, but only 10% ever buy any product related to Property A.  Property B has only 25 000 fans, but every product sells to over 50% of them.  Property B thus consistently outsells Property A regardless of fan "lip-service" and goodwill support.

The only thing that Greyhawk has consistently shown, year in and year out,  is that everyone claims to love it but no one wants to buy anything for it.  Fans claim tepid developer support, crappy product, or whatever.  Doesn't matter.  Greyhawk is a financial risk, especially in the face of easy money like new FR product.

For crying out loud, the first setting to get the 4e treatment?  FR.  Why?  Because FR is proven to sell product.

Quote from: architect.zeroThe only poll worth anything is sales figures.  Why?  Well... lets say that there are 50 000 fans of Property A, but only 10% ever buy any product related to Property A.  Property B has only 25 000 fans, but every product sells to over 50% of them.  Property B thus consistently outsells Property A regardless of fan "lip-service" and goodwill support.

The only thing that Greyhawk has consistently shown, year in and year out,  is that everyone claims to love it but no one wants to buy anything for it.  Fans claim tepid developer support, crappy product, or whatever.  Doesn't matter.  Greyhawk is a financial risk, especially in the face of easy money like new FR product.

For crying out loud, the first setting to get the 4e treatment?  FR.  Why?  Because FR is proven to sell product.

Ummm...how many FR books were offered?  How many Greyhawk? And then, when they do release something, they announce the end of the current version and the ending of the Living campaign.

If they're using sales numbers directly, they're comparing apples to oranges. They have no fucking clue how Greyhawk would sell. They've not tried for years...

EDIT: But if you want to discuss it, we should respect Zach's thread and move it elsewhere.  Sorry for derailing, Zach.

Quote from: James J SkachUmmm...how many FR books were offered?  How many Greyhawk? And then, when they do release something, they announce the end of the current version and the ending of the Living campaign.

If they're using sales numbers directly, they're comparing apples to oranges. They have no fucking clue how Greyhawk would sell. They've not tried for years...

You're right, they haven't tried to produce anything Greyhawk in years.  It's a chicken and egg thing.  They won't produce because they don't trust it, and they don't trust it because they don't produce for it.  Read my post again, particularly that last part about financial risk.

Maybe they'll grow a set with 4e, but I doubt it.  Too much easy money to be milked from FR, and then from Eberron.

EDIT: should've previewed and respected Zach's thread.  Feel free to start a new one, but I'm not sure there's much else to be said on this matter.

No prob, guys.  I don't mind the tangent if you don't.

EDIT: I can tell you, if we'd seen some more books that were nice fluffy bits for Greyhawk for 3.x, I'd have been all over them.  But having it as the technical default "setting" for the line just didn't cut it.

Quote from: architect.zeroFor crying out loud, the first setting to get the 4e treatment?  FR.  Why?  Because FR is proven to sell product.

I just read very recently, like within the past few weeks, a post by the person I think was in charge of the Greyhawk line (Michele Carter?) when it was essentially axed by TSR in favor of FR. At that time, she said, GH was selling almost as well as FR, and that it wasn't due to sales that GH was tossed aside. I wish I could remember where I saw that post - it was either EN World or Circus Maximus. I'll try to find it...

I can say that I love the original Dark Sun setting.  It was neat, innovative, and overall just had an exotic style to it that wasn't quite like any other setting.

TSR fucked it up before long, but it was pretty classy when first published.

-O

OK, with the help of the inestimable grodog, Greyhawk expert extraordinaire, I can present the post I was talking about above. I was wrong about the who, when, and where - it was posted by Lisa Stevens on the Paizo boards last February (though I only saw it for the first time a couple weeks ago; at least I got that right ):

Quote from: From the Paizo boardsGermytech wrote:

    Or perhaps the fact that Greyhawk doesn't sell.

    Don't get me wrong: I like Greyhawk, too. But when compared to the incredibly successful franchises Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or even the ordinary supplements that WotC puts out, Greyhawk cannot even carry a torch.


Well, I can tell you, as the last person who was the Greyhawk Brand Manager at WotC, that Greyhawk sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products. However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.

Lisa Stevens
CEO

The original thread, the post in question is about 40% down the page:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dragon/compendium/aoWHCAndDragonCompendiumII

Anyway.

My favorite settings for D&D are, in no particular order:

Greyhawk - a good, solid setting that is much more interesting than it's given credit for.

Birthright - This setting has a distinct, epic feel to it. I never found the whole "ruling a realm" thing to be the big draw for me. What drew me to the setting was the whole notion of bloodlines that could be passed along or even stolen. Hand-in-hand with that was a slew of really interesting antagonist NPCs, any one of which could be the villainous focus for a whole campaign. There is a definite mythic, legendary mood to this setting which I don't think any other official D&D setting ever quite attained, except in one case...

al Qadim - One of TSR's truly classy lines of products. This setting really evoked an "Arabian Nights" air. I feel it caught the spirit of its genre better than just about any other RPG attempt.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonOK, with the help of the inestimable grodog, Greyhawk expert extraordinaire, I can present the post I was talking about above. I was wrong about the who, when, and where - it was posted by Lisa Stevens on the Paizo boards last February (though I only saw it for the first time a couple weeks ago; at least I got that right ):



The original thread, the post in question is about 40% down the page:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dragon/compendium/aoWHCAndDragonCompendiumII

That's pretty cool.  Maybe it'll prompt WoTC to grow a set develop some real* product for it.  (* real product being a seriously treated, full writeup presented in the same format as FR)

Don't get me wrong from my earlier post.  I have no hate for Greyhawk.  I've  always been under the impression that GH wasn't selling well in 90s with 2e and thus the move to concentrate on FR and a new setting (Eberron).

I wonder what 7 years of rotting on the vine (barring Living GH, of course) has done to the property?

Quote from: architect.zeroThat's pretty cool.  Maybe it'll prompt WoTC to grow a set develop some real* product for it.  (* real product being a seriously treated, full writeup presented in the same format as FR)

Don't get me wrong from my earlier post.  I have no hate for Greyhawk.  I've  always been under the impression that GH wasn't selling well in 90s with 2e and thus the move to concentrate on FR and a new setting (Eberron).

I wonder what 7 years of rotting on the vine (barring Living GH, of course) has done to the property?

That's the interesting part.

I see a lot of posts and discussions in other places (mostly Yahoo groups and such) that are like Zach's - if they did books like they did for FR, there are quite a few people who would be all over it; me included.

It's sad that I have to go back to my 1980 falling apart brown folder gazetteer. Yes, I know there are more recent versions (I have Greyhawk City and From the Ashes) - they just ain't the same for me. However, I'd guess, and it's just speculation, that if they put out another version like that - two huge maps and a sparse but relatively complete accounting of the politics, history, and geography, it would sell immensely well....

i don't understand the sales comparison (GH to FR).  

haven't they (tsr/wotc) always put out more material for FR than greyhawk?  the sheer volume of novels, regional splats, adventures, etc. for the realms has always swamped the number of greyhawk releases.  

i'd pick up regional oerth splats in a heartbeat, too.  well, if they were paperback. . . .