So, the other day the cover images for the new D&D books came out, and that caused quite the stir. It also continued the stir about the prices of the new core books (at a basic $50 each, that means a $150 investment on the three books; assuming you get them at full price).
What has been less mentioned is the starter set, which will come in just under $20, a much more affordable level. But this has led to rampant speculation that the starter set will be nothing more than 'crippleware', a "for-profit ad for the main books", as more than one commenter suggested. Admittedly, there's good cause to make such speculation, since pretty much all D&D starter sets for the last 20 years of so have amounted to that.
Well, I have a bit of an edge over other bloggers in that I'm actually a Consultant for Wizards of the Coast on the project-formerly-known-as-D&DNext, now mercifully revealed to simply be called, in its final version, the tried and true "Dungeons & Dragons". Being a paid consultant is a double-edged sword, of course, because there are NDA-imposed limits on what I can and can't say. But on the other hand it means that instead of having to wildly guess based on twitter feeds or the like, I can just talk directly with Mike Mearls and find out what's what. Which is precisely what I've done.
So here is my statement, not of Mike's words (much less of some PR hack from WoTC) but of my own personal position on this subject as a gamer, and with information that almost no one else writing about this subject has access to:
I'm willing to say, right here and now, that the Starter set will NOT be "crippleware", not as I consider that term.
I can't get into a lot of specifics here, but as an exercise in contrasts, I will tell you what I WOULD consider 'crippleware'. It would be Crippleware to me, for example, if it was a boxed set that contained some pretty dice and some minis and rules for playing characters at levels 1-2 and after that you're shit out of luck and have to go buy the big-boy books.
That's crippleware.
The upcoming D&D Starter set, based on current information I have received firsthand as I am presently aware of it, is not that.
I would be skirting the limits of what I'm allowed to say if I were to state that in fact, the Starter set will contain more campaign-level material than pretty much any starter set I've seen, possibly including the original Basic D&D red box.
More importantly, as Mearls recently stated in his twitter account, you will NOT need to buy all of the D&D "core" books to play OR RUN the game. And unless I've been massively lied to, this is not a play on words or a trick; it is exactly what it says it is.
I will finally close with this enigmatic statement: not everything about how the new D&D will work has been revealed to the public yet. Everything will be more clear when certain information is made public in a while. Information, I might add, that I as an advocate of the D&D game being made as accessible as possible to regular and casual gamers rather than just marketing to the hardcore fans am very excited about.
I really wish I could say more, but I can't, not yet. Still, I hope that those of you who know me, and have read me, whether or not you like me as a person or in my positions on gaming, will know that I'm not going to say something that isn't true, or pretend to be positive about something that I don't feel positive about. And I feel quite positive at this point about the direction WoTC is heading in with this new edition of D&D.
RPGPundit
Well good enough for me given I am that casual gamer they are after.
I'm just going to guess that the starter set will have a significant supplementary online component easily accessible via tablet/smartphone. It's not that onerous in this day and age, really.
...Wait. ...No chargen with the Starter Set? That would be a fail.
It really should be in the set, all rationale aside.
Quote from: GameDaddy;750767...Wait. ...No chargen with the Starter Set? That would be a fail.
Where did you get that from?
Quote from: Endless Flight;750769It really should be in the set, all rationale aside.
I agree. Regardless internet access for a free online character builder or PDF, I am disappointed that they haven't put character creation in the physical box set. It should be in there, even if it means a price increase to $30.
Quote from: robiswrong;750770Where did you get that from?
Mearls confirmed this last night. Character creation looks to be by way of a free online character builder or PDF.
Quote from: MearlsTo clear up the Starter Set - it's aimed at DMs, so no PC creation in the box. But players will be able to make characters without it. For a DM running the starter set, there will be pregens to hand out. Players who want to make characters will be able to do so.
No character gen in the starter set is a no buy from me. I will not buy a D&D boxed set to offer my cousins, nephews, the kids I know etc, that does not include the primary feature of a tabletop role playing game: creating an alter-ego of your own to explore the worlds of your imagination pretending to be whoever you want, however you want. This is not rocket science. Really.
Sounds like Pundit is weaseling around the fact that there is no chargen in the set, which he well knows makes it crippleware.
Eh, if it's available via free PDF it doesn't bug me that much, though I would prefer to see it in the box set.
Quote from: robiswrong;750795Eh, if it's available via free PDF it doesn't bug me that much, though I would prefer to see it in the box set.
That's not convenient to gift giving, getting kids/others into it though.
Quote from: Silverlion;750798That's not convenient to gift giving, getting kids/others into it though.
IMO the move makes it clear that WotC's intended utility of the starter set is a "pay to preview" rather than a set to get new players into the game.
Quote from: Skywalker;750800IMO the move makes it clear that WotC's intended utility of the starter set is a "pay to preview" rather than a set to get new players into the game.
The Pathfinder Beginner Box is a gateway to full blown Pathfinder, but you really could just use that boxed set for years because of the character creation and level 1-5 spread. I love that flip-mat in that set. I use it for other games. You know you have a good boxed set when the stuff inside is being used for other games. :D
Quote from: Endless Flight;750801The Pathfinder Beginner Box is a gateway to full blown Pathfinder, but you really could just use that boxed set for years because of the character creation and level 1-5 spread. I love that flip-mat in that set. I use it for other games. You know you have a good boxed set when the stuff inside is being used for other games. :D
The fact that their main competitor for D&D has set a benchmark for what the Starter Set should be (even though Pathfinder also has an OGL document that allows for full character creation) just makes this all the more sad.
No chargen = DUMB.
If chargen is too complex for newbs, you have failed at D&D again, Whizbros.
This is my guess.
They are going to release the whole game for free download on July 15th.
They are not going to release PDFs for sale ever for the main rules.
I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.
The box set includes pre-made characters. You will (as the "teacher" of the game) have the ability via some PDF or online tool to make more. You can pre-gen plenty of options for new players to try out. Most of the new players I have introduced to the hobby in the last 5 years have all asked for either a) a pre-gen or b) for me to make the character with them, translating their questions onto a character sheet (pre-gen by proxy?).
This approach allows newbies to kick the tires on the game, getting knee-deep into the playing parts before having to decide what character options they want. I think this will encourage newbies to try various options as well. People don't invest as much into pre-gens, so the focus will naturally steer towards learning the game and the various options (IMHO).
The Box Set is not targeting the grognard market. It's targeting new players. If you are a grognard the $20 buy-in will simply be a preview for YOU (well, US really...). Otherwise, it's a savvy move to making the game more accessible.
The full rules will be out before year's end. Can you make level 5 in two months? That doesn't seem likely, but in SEPT you can stop kicking around the box set and start your new campaign with FULL char gen. Seems reasonable to me.
I wasn't convinced that WOTC could revitalize D&D or market/produce the game in a manner that would continue the brand in a meaningful manner. This gives me some hope actually. I'm especially encouraged by the desire to take the right amount of time to release the books. As a QA person, I appreciate a focus on quality. :D
Put me in the "no-character generation in the starter means I won't buy a single product" camp. It's possible I'd bring it in for the store if people want it, but I'll tell them how much more Pathfinder respects them and puts out a far better product first. Also, computer chargen for D&D is ridiculous. For Rolemaster or GURPS I can see it, but if you need a computer to make a D&D character the designers should be whipped.
I guess part of the reason it doesn't bug me is that character creation is, to me, less interesting than actually playing the damn game.
And if character creation is more complex than it was in the old days (roll some stats, pick a class), it can certainly be a barrier to entry. Not shoving that much complexity in the face of new players is understandable.
Having it available as an online builder/free PDF is reasonable. To me. Having an additional charge would place it more firmly in the "crippleware" category.
If the starter set is DM-focused, that makes me hopeful. It means that every kids who gets a copy of the thing and wants to use it will be prompted to try their hand at DMing - let their enthusiasm draw in the players. That being the case, giving them pregen characters they can put down in front of their friends so they can start playing ASAP makes sense - as pointed out, as much as people love character gen once they get into the hobby, it's a huge speed block for total novices.
If character gen is freely available online at a place the boxed set directs kids to, I'm broadly satisfied. (I'm even happier if the information is there to let them roll characters by hand.) If you really don't want to give a kid a box without character gen, print out the dang PDF and hand it to them with the box - bingo, job done.
What I'd really like to see is a player-facing starter booklet containing character gen information which is distributed for free wherever the starter set is offered. That'd be ace.
Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.
The box set includes pre-made characters. You will (as the "teacher" of the game) have the ability via some PDF or online tool to make more. You can pre-gen plenty of options for new players to try out. Most of the new players I have introduced to the hobby in the last 5 years have all asked for either a) a pre-gen or b) for me to make the character with them, translating their questions onto a character sheet (pre-gen by proxy?).
This approach allows newbies to kick the tires on the game, getting knee-deep into the playing parts before having to decide what character options they want. I think this will encourage newbies to try various options as well. People don't invest as much into pre-gens, so the focus will naturally steer towards learning the game and the various options (IMHO).
The Box Set is not targeting the grognard market. It's targeting new players. If you are a grognard the $20 buy-in will simply be a preview for YOU (well, US really...). Otherwise, it's a savvy move to making the game more accessible.
The full rules will be out before year's end. Can you make level 5 in two months? That doesn't seem likely, but in SEPT you can stop kicking around the box set and start your new campaign with FULL char gen. Seems reasonable to me.
I wasn't convinced that WOTC could revitalize D&D or market/produce the game in a manner that would continue the brand in a meaningful manner. This gives me some hope actually. I'm especially encouraged by the desire to take the right amount of time to release the books. As a QA person, I appreciate a focus on quality. :D
Really?
How many people are gaming today because they got started with Holmes Basic, or Moldvay Basic, or especially Mentzer Basic? Did those sets not work? Did they not bring new players into the hobby? Why cant they do the same again? The Pathfinders Beginner's Box is AMAZINGLY well done; and sells quite well. And it is for one of the chunkiest rules systems out.
I have a cousin interested in RPGs. He likes Star Wars, so I looked into getting the new Edge of the Empire Starter Set. Honestly, I cannot give such a product... IT is not geared to a player, especially a new player. Yes, it teaches the basics of the game mechanics but without character creation, it doesn't teach any of the fundamentals of the game, how characters go together or why even play. You are stuck with multiple lifeless pre-gens in a set geared for someone who wants to run (and a limited game at that) one off one-shots.
A Starter set is by far the simplest of concepts to get, and yet so few do...
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;750814Really?
How many people are gaming today because they got started with Holmes Basic, or Moldvay Basic, or especially Mentzer Basic? Did those sets not work? Did they not bring new players into the hobby? Why cant they do the same again? The Pathfinders Beginner's Box is AMAZINGLY well done; and sells quite well. And it is for one of the chunkiest rules systems out.
It depends on how many pre-gen characters are given, and how it's presented.
Also keep in mind that character creation has become exponentially more complex since the Moldvay/Mentzer days.
I like rolling up dudes. Even in simple systems. Nothing beats rolling up some dudes.
Quote from: Warthur;750813If the starter set is DM-focused, that makes me hopeful. It means that every kids who gets a copy of the thing and wants to use it will be prompted to try their hand at DMing - let their enthusiasm draw in the players. That being the case, giving them pregen characters they can put down in front of their friends so they can start playing ASAP makes sense - as pointed out, as much as people love character gen once they get into the hobby, it's a huge speed block for total novices.
You are describing every D&D box set that had no character creation in it. It won't prompt purchasers to be DMs any more than they did.
Calling it "DM-focussed" is just a euphemism.
Quote from: robiswrong;750815It depends on how many pre-gen characters are given, and how it's presented.
5. The blurb says that.
No Chargen = Crippleware
What more is there to say?
Pregen characters are good so players can start gaming as fast as possible, but its no big deal for there to be 4 races and 4 classes going to 4 levels (aka short list of 2nd level spells) so people can try out their hand at making their own characters.
Quote from: Skywalker;750818You are describing every D&D box set that had no character creation in it. It won't prompt purchasers to be DMs any more than they did.
Calling it "DM-focussed" is just a euphemism.
Saying a Starter Set is DM focused then it really isn't a Starter product is it...
Quote from: trechriron;750808...From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively....
That's been my experience. The ones who hang around the hobby the longest were the ones who got right into the game and who felt comfortable with the basic rules. Chargen wasn't that big of a motivator. It was already a big enough decision for them to decide whether they wanted to play a fighter or a wizard, and the real long-termers tried out every basic class at some point.
Also, in a certain sense, if WotC puts out a SRD, they'll to catch some criticism whichever way they go. If they include it in the basic box, then people are paying for what they could already get for free. If not, then its "crippleware."
Funny thing is that I remember when people were outraged about having to pay over and over again for the same basic rules in the Essentials players books and DMG. This is almost like the flip side of that.
Quote from: Saplatt;750825Also, in a certain sense, if WotC puts out a SRD, they'll to catch some criticism whichever way they go. If they include it in the basic box, then people are paying for what they could already get for free. If not, then its "crippleware."
I have yet to see that criticism about the Pathfinder Beginner Box, which is in exactly the same boat. Mostly it just gets praised. Lots of it. As such, I don't think they would have been criticised whichever way they went.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;750821Saying a Starter Set is DM focused then it really isn't a Starter product is it...
DMs gotta start somewhere. And if every kid who gets this box tries their hand at DMing...
Quote from: Warthur;750828DMs gotta start somewhere. And if every kid who gets this box tries their hand at DMing...
But this is the same as every starter box previously released without character creation. I am not seeing the upside or added "DM focus".
Quote from: Skywalker;750830But this is the same as every starter box previously released without character creation.
Pundit seems convinced otherwise, I'm willing to wait and see what's coming down the pipeline which he can't tell us about.
Quote from: Warthur;750828DMs gotta start somewhere. And if every kid who gets this box tries their hand at DMing...
The best product in the 4e line was the Essentials DM's Kit box set.
While the DM's Kit and Monster Vault were both awesome, the 4e Red Box Starter Set was a piece of utter shit...
I'm all for having a Box set aimed at DMs; but not having one aimed at players, to bring new players into the hobby is unconscionably stupid...
You know all my DOS, etc. games? Especially those with pass-codes in the manual, manuals in extensions or word processors no longer supported, online patches, and/or finicky code barely stable on its own original OS? You know what sucks about all that? TIME.
Lynchpins to play suck. Chargen relegated to a finite extension or websites is just asking for obsolescence. It's been the bane of boardgames until they learned to get around critical singular parts. This is not hard, don't make the same mistake.
Quote from: Warthur;750833Pundit seems convinced otherwise, I'm willing to wait and see what's coming down the pipeline which he can't tell us about.
From what everyone is saying (Mearls, Pundit etc), we will be getting character creation by way of a separate free PDF or online character generator, which is exactly what we got under 3e and 4e. Trying to distinguish this release from them is simply obvious bias.
Not thrilled that generation isn't included in the box, but if it's a simple pdf download, then whatever. Still keeping my amazon pre-order. Having more of a dm focus in the box seems like it could be a good idea. Heck, I'm surprise that WoTC doesn't have online workshops for would be DM's.
The pre-gens will probably be like the ones in Dragonspear- a nameless fighter than you can skin (going from memory here).
It'd be awesome if they brought back Warduke and Peralay.
You know what I'd like to see in a starter box one day. Mapping stickers. One sheet for doing your dungeons and another for doing your own world. Because the number one feature they should be pushing is that this is a game where you can create something of your own.
Quote from: David Johansen;750846You know what I'd like to see in a starter box one day. Mapping stickers. One sheet for doing your dungeons and another for doing your own world. Because the number one feature they should be pushing is that this is a game where you can create something of your own.
Since every kid int eh world between teh ages of 8 and 14 spends about 50% of their time playing Minecraft they don't need map stickers they just need a bit of papper a pencil and some sample maps.
Think about this for a moment. The world is connected. The target audience for D&D is an online audience.
On that basis if you can log onto an iphone app to create your PC then all the players turn up to the DMs game the guy that bought the box set for $20 with their PC created then what's the big deal?
Quote from: Warthur;750813What I'd really like to see is a player-facing starter booklet containing character gen information which is distributed for free wherever the starter set is offered. That'd be ace.
Or they could include that booklet
IN THE STARTER SET!(http://f2.thejournal.ie/media/2014/05/emrknjp.gif)
Quote from: jibbajibba;750851Since every kid int eh world between teh ages of 8 and 14 spends about 50% of their time playing Minecraft they don't need map stickers they just need a bit of papper a pencil and some sample maps.
Think about this for a moment. The world is connected. The target audience for D&D is an online audience.
On that basis if you can log onto an iphone app to create your PC then all the players turn up to the DMs game the guy that bought the box set for $20 with their PC created then what's the big deal?
So go play minecraft then. The tactile hands-on nature of the game is something that should be emphasized not down played. The sticker thing is just a gimmick but it's an inexpensive and fun gimmick. Usually I'm advocating a couple hundred miniatures in a starter set.
Quote from: Dodger;750855Or they could include that booklet IN THE STARTER SET!
(http://f2.thejournal.ie/media/2014/05/emrknjp.gif)
Inconceivable!
Quote from: Scott Anderson;750816I like rolling up dudes. Even in simple systems. Nothing beats rolling up some dudes.
This.
And I hated feeling like I had to have a computer handy to roll up a character in 4e or even level up. I'm not saying that is the case but I really don't want to even need a PDF or char gen program. That was my one hope, a complete game no computer anything.
sorry, whining like my toddler, I know
Quote from: David Johansen;750856So go play minecraft then. The tactile hands-on nature of the game is something that should be emphasized not down played. The sticker thing is just a gimmick but it's an inexpensive and fun gimmick. Usually I'm advocating a couple hundred miniatures in a starter set.
You miss the point.
The point is that give kids an open resource they will fill it with their own imagination.
What you need is an app you can add to a scanner that will take a map drawn out on paper and scan and render it into a 3d computer world, or take their minecraft world and render it as a 2d map you can print.
when I was struggling with trying to build a city in Neverwinter Nights I was longing for an app that let me generate a base city through : Scan in this map: Generate City: Skin with Gothic Style. Or even better - Generate Random City XXX squares by YYY: Skin with Gothic Style: then let me go in and tweak the outcome.
When I win the lottery this is exactly the software my company will develop.
Oh and a way of providing an interface to the 3d computer world that is as flexible as my imagination and works at the same pace, add a room, render it, add some creatures, use the stats of a bugbear but make them octopodes with tencles, add some octopoidal artwork and statury, all in reall time.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;750870This.
And I hated feeling like I had to have a computer handy to roll up a character in 4e or even level up. I'm not saying that is the case but I really don't want to even need a PDF or char gen program. That was my one hope, a complete game no computer anything.
sorry, whining like my toddler, I know
But surely it will be on your phone.
The D&D character generator app is an obvious freee phone app.
You roll up your character on the bus on the way to the game.
Lets be honest you then spend a good chunk of your time just creating charcters dipping into the art archive that anyone can upload their own pictures to to fine a cool image and uploading your own artwork, photos of yourself dressed like an elf etc etc .
Well lets just say that if I were in charge of D&D there would be a character creator free iphone/android app.
Quote from: trechriron;750808I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.
My experience with new players is similar.
In my last 4e campaign I offered my group of 5 newbies the option of using one of several straightforward pregens or going full detailed chargen. Only one took the detailed option. The others stuck with the pregens for the rest of the seven levels the campaign lasted.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;750873My experience with new players is similar.
The advantage of the approach in the Pathfinder BB where you have pre-gens and character creation is you get to cater to both, and not rely on everyone having the same preferences. Even the D&D4e Red Box managed that, barely.
If chargen is somehow free, then they just sold me as a player. Because that means I don't have to buy ANYTHING. I can just play.
As a GM I have negative interest in D&D, but as a player, I just want to be able to create a character. The rest is up to whoever gets tricked into buying and running things.
My 11 year old daughter usually likes to create her own characters in D&D instead of playing pre-gens and she's in that sought-after demographic.
So I guess re the box set and character gen.
i) they want to keep the 3 book model for tradition
ii) adding a Player book to the box set that covers character gen adds $10 to the cost
iii) every player might buy a player book the rest of the box set is for the DM
iv) if you want characters from the box set to be compatible with the whole game does that mean you strip out options to keep it short?
v) they may well be a free to market electronic player "book"
Now I would probably have included the player book in the box set and sold for $29:99. Make it a 50 page book with character generation and some discussion of options and stuff, 8 races 8 classes (page each), backgrounds (4 pages), Spells (8 pages), combat (2 pages), exploration (2 pages), equipment (2 pages), and a section on character and roleplaying (4 pages) and other fluff (the rest) . I would also have made this availble on its own for $9:99 and included the bulk of it and a free to market phone app. But I would also be targetting the starter set at 9 year olds who prolly don't have their own phones.
If you want to bring the price point under 20 so it becomes a casual buy for a lot of folks then I can see you might not include it.
Quote from: Brander;750875If chargen is somehow free, then they just sold me as a player. Because that means I don't have to buy ANYTHING. I can just play.
So, were you sold on D&D3e and Pathfinder for the same reason?
For months I have been firmly in the wait-and-see category. Twenty-four hours ago I was in the I-want-this-now category. This morning I put the starter box on my amazon wish list.
And now I just want to shoot myself for getting my hopes up that there was a Intro box that I could offer potential new players: 'Here is a sheet of paper, roll some dice, pick a class (or race and class), buy some equipment, and let's fucking play the game.'
Fuck this shit, I'm tired of getting my chain yanked. I just want WOTC to do something right for a change. Seriously. Fuck.
Footnote: I love the Pathfinder Basic Box set, but I'll be damned if I ever DM 3e/Pathfinder again.
EDIT: And I'm getting tired of this cryptic bullshit coming out of Mearls' mouth. I think I should take a few days.
Quote from: Skywalker;750800IMO the move makes it clear that WotC's intended utility of the starter set is a "pay to preview" rather than a set to get new players into the game.
Not happening without Chargen. 96 pages and no room for Chargen? ...really? ...REALLY?
Chargen takes just 16 pages of the Holmes Bluebook, and that includes spells!!!5e went from try, ....to not try, in one day. Chargen online doesn't work for me.
nope.
...nope.
...nope ...nope ...nope *
* If they left out Chargen out of the starter set, what did they skip out on with the full
overpriced game?
Well, the first impression is everything. :D
Quote from: jibbajibba;750871when I was struggling with trying to build a city in Neverwinter Nights I was longing for an app that let me generate a base city through : Scan in this map: Generate City: Skin with Gothic Style. Or even better - Generate Random City XXX squares by YYY: Skin with Gothic Style: then let me go in and tweak the outcome.
Building this...
right now ...looks a bit like this at the moment. Still have to workup some more of the city merchants...
Stede on The Beach – 44 Blocks
Fort StedeHome to the garrison of Stede. Four Towers, reinforced stone walls, and a three story stone Keep. On the first story is administrative offices, the smithy, and the armory... The second story contains the jail and kitchens. The third story contains quarters for some officers, and some of troops permanently assigned to this castle. Additional soldiers stationed here, as well as soldiers with families, are billeted in the town itself. The Keep contains the captains quarters, quarters for three additional officers as well as a barracks for forty soldiers. Shelters can be erected in the courtyard so that the full complement of troops (200) as well as 100 citizens can be sheltered and protected inside the walls.
Wall Thickness: 20' Wall Height: 50' The top of the wall contains a spikes. There are also collapsible pits located every 20 feet or so in front of the walls, as well as along the top of the wall. The pits at the base of the wall open to a 20' drop into a pit of seawater 20 feet deep. The pits along top of the wall drop 20 feet into a spiked trap. Falling into these causes 2d6 falling damage + 3d6 spike damage.
Garrison Size: 180 Regulars
The Sun Champions, composed of,
30 Light Foot Regulars, Three HD, no armor, AC 9, armed with half-spear 1d4.
40 Light Foot Regulars, Three HD, leather armor, AC 7, armed with a spear 1d6.
36 Light Foot Regulars, Three HD, leather armor and buckler, AC 6, armed with swords 1d6 and daggers 1d4.
28 Regulars, Four HD, armed with fauchard - polearm 1d8, wearing hide armor AC 7and carrying a small heater shield -1 AC,
30 Crossbowmen, Four HD, using heavy crossbows 1d10, and wearing hide armor AC 7,
18 Light Horsemen, Eight HD, armed with Spears 1d6, carrying targe shields -1 AC and wearing breastplates AC 4,
Crest: Golden Sun with rays over a Chevron on a Grey background
and
The Stead Lancer Company18 Heavy Horsemen, 4 HD, armed with Spears 1d6, wearing banded chainmail AC 4.
Crest: Dark Knight with Lance (facing left) mounted on Rampant White Horse on a Grey Field.
Morale: Veterans, +1 on all morale checks
Led by
Nick Lersathe, an Alchemist Lvl 13, Man.
AC 9 HD 9 HP 36 Weapon: +3 Dagger, +1 Quarterstaff. Armor: None
Nick can brew magic potions using alchemy secrets and poisons as well including a highly lethal black lotus brew.
Class Benefits:+6 Saving throw vs. effects of any potions and brews.
May identify alchemical potions, magic potions, and alchemy ingredients in ten minutes.
May craft Flesh and Clay Golems
Siege EquipmentFort Stede also has 2 Onagers (2d6 stones +2d6 Fire damage when ignited), and 2 Mangonels (1d6+2d6 fire damage when ignited) on the top of the seaward side of the towers and two Ballistae (1d10+6) on towers overlooking the city streets
Travel and Inns in Stede on the Beach1. The Copper and Sailor Inn
2. The Daggers, Inn and Casino
3. The Guard's Circle of Stones Inn
4. The Baron's Arm Tavern and Inn Single Story
5. The Duchess Arms Pub
6. The Peach Tree and Cask Alehouse, The Prior's Alehouse, and the Queen's Arms Winery
7. The Wolves Alehouse
8. The Griffin and Salmon Tavern
9. Red Seagull Alehouse, The Jay Tavern, & the Captain's Harp Tavern
10. Three Suns Inn
11. The Bowmen's Tavern
12. The Black Horse Pub
13. Stumbling Saloon and Meadery
MarketPlaces in Stede on the Beach14. Pauper's Open MarketPaper and Writing Supplies StallAdacia
Race: Human
Sex: Male
HD:4
Description: Adacia is an unexceptional looking young man of large build. He is completely bald. He is very well dressed. He is holding a large crate of paper, and is stopping some people and asking them if they know Asiya.
Supplies Available4 Small Bottle Dark Red Ink 1 Gp
1,400 Paper Sheet 4 Sp
2 Small Bottle Dark Green Ink 1 Gp
6 Small Bottle Black Ink 1 Gp
5 Black Paint 1 Gp, 1 Lb
20 Quill 1 Cp
10 Lb Wax (per Lb) 5 Sp, 1 Lb
20 Fine Quill 1 Cp
125 Parchment Sheet 2 Sp
12 Ink, 1 Oz vial 8 Gp
Tinker's StallÁerilnal Thaowowiel
Race: Elf
Sex: Male
HD:5
Description: Áerilnal Thaowowiel is a handsome young man of small build. He is completely bald. He is dressed normally for the area. He is walking idly around the merchandise.
Small Repair Job 1d10 Sp
Large Repair Job 1d6 Gp + cost of materials
Price Per Day 3 Sp
Spell Components StallSoki
Race: Gnome
Sex: Female
HD:4
Description: Soki is an unexceptional looking middle aged woman of large build. She has gray hair. She is dressed normally for the area. This happens to include European ring mail armor AC 7, and a colorful scarf
as well as darts 1d4. She is stopping some people and asking them if they know Ocrurovus.
Spell Components AvailableSpell ----- Spell Component or Spell Focus ----- Cost ----- Weight in Lb ----- Weight in ozTransmute Mud to Rock, Vial of Water,1 Gp,.25 lb,4 Oz, only a few drops needed
Suggestion, Snakes Tongue,1 Gp, neg,0.1 oz
Cure Serious Wounds, Adder's Tongue,10 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Desecrate, Vial of Unholy Water,25 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Mount, A bit of Horse Hair,2 Cp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Find The Path Bones x8,10 Gp,0.5 lb,8 oz
Cure Critical Wounds, Burdock Roots,5 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Cure Serious Wounds, Lemon Balm Jar,5 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Color Spray, Red Sand Vial,1 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Disintegrate, Lodestone,10 Gp,1 lb,16 oz
Lightning Bolt, Bit of Fur,1 Cp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Greater Planar Binding, Vial of enchanted Air,100 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Resistance, A miniature Cloak,15 Cp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Polymorph Other, Empty Cocoon,1 Sp, neg,0.1 oz
Horrid Wilting, A Sponge,1 Gp,0.125 lb,2 oz
Sealing Wax 1 Gp, 1 Lb
Locate Object Forked Twig,1 Cp,0.5 lb,8 oz
Fear, White Feather,1 Cp, neg,0.1 oz
Heal, Lemon Balm Jar,5 Gp,0.25 lb,4 oz
Clone Special Laboratory Equipment,500 Gp,10 lb,160 oz
Magic Jar Pink Pearl,100 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Transmute Mud to Rock, Vial of Water,1 Gp,.25 lb,4 Oz, only a few drops needed
Binding, Vellum Depiction,10 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Magic Jar Coral gemstone,100 Gp,0.0625 lb,1 oz
Symbol, Powdered Diamond,"5,000 Gp",0.0625 lb,1 oz
Hot Boiled Seafood StallCregre
Race: Halfling
Sex: Female
HD:8
Description: Cregre is an attractive adult woman of small build. She has unkempt brown hair. She is dressed normally for the area. She is standing looking at you.
MenuFish Chowder, 5 Sp a bowl
Dried Salted Octopus, 3 Gp per lb
Rye Bread, 3 Gp per lb
Fish and Biscuits Platter 1 Gp
Large Crab, 5 Gp
Hake, 5 Gp per lb
Swordfish, 2 gp per lb
Seafood Banquet 25 Gp
Hot Coffee, 3 Cp per cup
Misium Ale, 8 Gp per gallon
Misium Ale, 2 Gp per Pint
Misium Ale, 56 Gp per Pony Keg
...and so on... all randomly generated using inspiration pad pro.
Quote from: jibbajibba;750871You miss the point.
The point is that give kids an open resource they will fill it with their own imagination.
Yes and nobody's opposed to free apps and software or even purchased or subscribed ones.
But the core entry point should include character creation. Because the entry point should be a complete game not a crippled preview. D&D is the game where you create your own character and explore fantastic worlds.
Quote from: jibbajibba;750872But surely it will be on your phone.
The D&D character generator app is an obvious freee phone app.
You roll up your character on the bus on the way to the game.
Lets be honest you then spend a good chunk of your time just creating charcters dipping into the art archive that anyone can upload their own pictures to to fine a cool image and uploading your own artwork, photos of yourself dressed like an elf etc etc .
Well lets just say that if I were in charge of D&D there would be a character creator free iphone/android app.
I hope they come out with the greatest phone app ever for you.
House rule #1: no phones at the table. Seriously the most disruption ever at a gaming table.
Seriously, am I that old "fogey" that I'm out of my mind for wanting some time with family or friends without needing to down load some crap?
Quote from: GameDaddy;750883Not happening without Chargen. 96 pages and no room for Chargen? ...really? ...REALLY?
D&D5e is closer to D&D3e than Holmes, so that's not really the basis for comparison (and being turned off by a lack of character creation in the Starter Set is probably a fortunate thing if you are wanting a D&D Holmes from 5e :))
Looking at the final playtest document for 5e, you could do PC creation in an extra 64 pages IMO, which I think would be economical if you had a price point of $30.
Quote from: Endless Flight;750876My 11 year old daughter usually likes to create her own characters in D&D instead of playing pre-gens and she's in that sought-after demographic.
...This. My kids are in this demographic too. The Boy likes rolling up Traveller characters. ...just because. Not sure he would part with money for an RPG game that doesn't include chargen.
The more I think about this, the weirder it seems.
Not cheap, not crippleware (I learned the term from this very thread), not WotC twerking us... Just... Weird.
What RPG doesn't start with chargen rules? That's sort of one of the biggies. I don't care whether you have an online portal or an app for it. It needs to be In the box or book for it to be a whole RPG.
If I want to play with someone else's character, I'll be the little cardboard black kid from Candyland.
I just finished writing my B/X homage game (sort of a clone, sort of house rules). 38 pages. Chargen made it in.
Why? Because the point of the game is to make your own guy and send him out to do stuff. That's it. That's what you do. You and your table all make up their own guys and go fight the town simpleton or try to steal the princess or light the tavern on fire or hit on the blue dragon. Or whatever.
These are not activities you can do with the cast of the Shady Dragon Inn. You need your own guys, who play in your own campaign, your own way. I just don't get it.
Well...
All things being equal (Pundit's endorsement included)... I'm going to wait until the DMG lands.
I like some of the things I'm hearing... some, not so much. But the usual rules apply - there's never been an edition of D&D I *didn't* houserule. With the notable exception of 4e, that I pretty much found unplayable for my tastes.
That alone is why I'm gonna wait and see. WotC burned a lot of goodwill with me on 4e. But to me, D&D is like the high-school girlfriend that turned into a whore. I want to remember her back when... when all was good.
Now here she is, years later, in my FB trying to chat me up with her $150 dinner she wants me to take her out "for ol' times sake".
I say thee nay!!
The idea that kids wouldn't somehow want to roll up their own character is bullshit.
It's like... missing the entire fucking point for some kids out there. It's like really shooting yourself in the foot and looking at people saying "Wasn't it great?! Now just wait. Wait! Just wait for what's coming!"
Stupid. I don't even like Pathfinder, but it's boxed set was very well done. Hasbro has the fucking money to make a good boxed set, yet they are going to put out a shit boxed set and tell us it's awesome how it doesn't include anything to create your own shit. So fucking stupid.
Quote from: GameDaddy;750885Building this... right now ...looks a bit like this at the moment. Still have to workup some more of the city merchants...
Stede on The Beach – 44 Blocks
Fort Stede
Home to the garrison of Stede. Four Towers, reinforced stone walls, and a three story stone Keep. On the first story is administrative offices, the smithy, and the armory... The second story contains the jail and kitchens. The third story contains quarters for some officers, and some of troops permanently assigned to this castle. Additional soldiers stationed here, as well as soldiers with families, are billeted in the town itself. The Keep contains the captains quarters, quarters for three additional officers as well as a barracks for forty soldiers. Shelters can be erected in the courtyard so that the full complement of troops (200) as well as 100 citizens can be sheltered and protected inside the walls.
<...snip...>
Hot Coffee, 3 Cp per cup
Misium Ale, 8 Gp per gallon
Misium Ale, 2 Gp per Pint
Misium Ale, 56 Gp per Pony Keg
...and so on... all randomly generated using inspiration pad pro.
well I just want it to generate an entire City scape in NWN that I can wander round in 3d alll nicely rendered and populated. Then I can edit and change stuff. Then I can use it as a NWN setting or I can print it off as a 2d map with a key and use it in a tabletop game.
I want all the generation to be fully automated. So it literally spits out a full randomly generated city for me an hour after I kick the programme off and go and read a book.
If someone came up with an interface that could easily turn a paper map to a rendered 3 d world or generate a rendered world and provide a map+ key to it then that would be Glorious
Quote from: Mike Mearls on TwitterThe stuff we haven't talked about yet is where DMs and players go next - there's a step between the Starter Set and the Big 3
So yeah, they're going to have some sort of digital initiative, free PDFs, whatnot.
https://twitter.com/mikemearls
Quote from: Skywalker;750879So, were you sold on D&D3e and Pathfinder for the same reason?
Yes, as a matter of fact I was, though almost only as a player. I prefer other systems for GMing, but it's fun to play D&D.
Quote from: Brander;750906Yes, as a matter of fact I was, though almost only as a player. I prefer other systems for GMing, but it's fun to play D&D.
Cool. So par for the course for you then :)
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;750888I hope they come out with the greatest phone app ever for you.
House rule #1: no phones at the table. Seriously the most disruption ever at a gaming table.
Seriously, am I that old "fogey" that I'm out of my mind for wanting some time with family or friends without needing to down load some crap?
Just as a counterpoint, my last D&D group (me as a player of course) had almost as many laptops at the table as players. Can't recall the link for the one I was using, but we almost all used some kind of online generator and referenced the SRD. Though there were plenty of books, they spent most of their time on a shelf.
Though considering almost everyone at the table worked at a job that required a cellphone be carried for being on-call, we were a bit on the technical side overall.
Quote from: GameDaddy;750890...This. My kids are in this demographic too. The Boy likes rolling up Traveller characters. ...just because. Not sure he would part with money for an RPG game that doesn't include chargen.
Rolling up Traveller characters is a mini-game all it's own. Though I have used software to do it as well. I think the vast majority of people are going to have no problem with a phone app and/or a PDF, or even a web page. It actually makes the game MORE accessible rather than less.
I remember when I had just got the Moldvay/Cook Basic box as a kid. I read the rulebook a bunch of times, my imagination blazing about all the characters I could make to populate made-up worlds. The book didn't tell me what world to make, it gave me the tools to make my own.
I would sit there at night and just roll up characters. Hell, my friends would come over and we'd just roll up characters in D&D or other games we got afterwards. If enough guys could come over, we'd play a proper game, but otherwise character building was fun. World building was fun. It was all there, in that box, it's imagination mana for kids. IME, it's the adults who are too busy to spend the time to create their own character who need the pregens.
Kids are going to get the Beginners Box for their birthday. It's gotta be a total game they can play. They're not gonna get the 3 manuals, those they're gonna have to mow a bunch of lawns and shovel a bunch of driveways and save up.
And ya know, I still play that B/X D&D game, and it's still playable. None of the computer stuff from '81 works any more on my laptop. But my Basic rulebook is still fully functional. And TSR hooked me early and got a lot of $ from me over the years.
Oh, and agreed about all that crypto-speech coming from Wizards, "but wait, it's all good, you'll just have to see, we got it covered, there's a plan..." Goddammnit, shit or get off the pot.
I didn't really have any interest at all in 5e... but then seeing Pundit's endorsement/reassurance... I started thinking $20 for a COMPLETE starter box would be a doddle... fun to read and if nothing else I'll pass it on to some kid.
But then... nope, it's not complete after all... it's one foot on the bait-n-switch conveyer belt to hook me in for the $150 hog farm.
No thanks.
I'm back to not giving a shit and being thankful for my LotFP boxed set.
It's probably too late for an on-line petition to change their minds as the books have probably been printed already.
WOTC has been stump-fuckingly moronic with D&D for 14 years now...
Why did we think they'd be any different now?
I feel like there is a product, a physical one, about which we are not yet aware, and which will make us all go, A-Ha! A product for which the PHB, the MM, and the DMG are all supplemental, and to which the Started Set points.
....at least, I like to hope so.
Quote from: Piestrio;750915Why did we think they'd be any different now?
Hope is a bitch.
This smacks of transmedia branding. Crippleware the deadtree box and push people towards tablet/phone apps or have a chargen pdf available.
Pundit however, who's been pretty harsh on crippleware, says it's not crippleware, and there's something we don't know. :hmm:
Quote from: PunditEverything will be more clear when certain information is made public in a while. Information, I might add, that I as an advocate of the D&D game being made as accessible as possible to regular and casual gamers rather than just marketing to the hardcore fans am very excited about.
Ok, so lets break this down. The info we don't know will "make D&D accessible as possible" to regular and casual gamers. A free chargen pdf doesn't sound like the kind of thing Pundit gets excited about. Something new?
Maybe a fully functioning interactive chargen website? A new OGL or CC license to go along with free rules?
I don't see how a boxed set without chargen can be called not crippleware. There must be a complimentary product somewhere.
There once was a Tekumel box (Gardasiyal?) set that lacked character generation. You had to go get another product to do that. How'd that work out?
Didn't they just get some 3D printer for minis? Chargen is probably online then you can order a mini of your character, all custom like.
From the Enworld frontpage summarizing some of the tweets:
QuoteMike Mearls also adds "You will not need the MM or DMG to run a campaign. Or the PH or Starter Set to make a character" and "You will be able to run a complete campaign starting in August, with the release of the PH." He also adds "To clear up the Starter Set - it's aimed at DMs, so no PC creation in the box. But players will be able to make characters without it. For a DM running the starter set, there will be pregens to hand out. Players who want to make characters will be able to do so."
My [Russ Morrissey's] complete wild guess? "You will not need PH or Starter Set to make a character" means simply that there will be an online character builder from launch. That's only a guess, though. On digital stuff in general (including PDFs), Mike said "Sorry, can't talk about that yet - still some issues to iron out on the digital front." Very secretive, but it sounds hopeful.
Smells like digital tools/offerings, apps whatnot to me.
Whatever else there is, the starter set is a glorified add without chargen. Whatever this secret is can it be part of a toys for tots donation with that add 'starter set' or instead of it? Cause otherwise it doesn't much change the fact that it's cripple ware.
Quote from: tenbones;750897But to me, D&D is like the high-school girlfriend that turned into a whore.
D&D...do it in the butt.
Quote from: CRKrueger;750920Pundit however, who's been pretty harsh on crippleware, says it's not crippleware, and there's something we don't know. :hmm:
Crippleware + Pundy's name in the credits = Awesomeware!
I am betting on the transmedia piece. Online chargen so if you buy the crapass box set, you can make your own character via an app or website.
Anyone taking bets that the transmedia launch is going to go off without a technical glitch??? Maybe we're getting that online game table we were promised in the back of the 3e PHB. Ah, the memories.
Quote from: Benoist;750780No character gen in the starter set is a no buy from me. I will not buy a D&D boxed set to offer my cousins, nephews, the kids I know etc, that does not include the primary feature of a tabletop role playing game: creating an alter-ego of your own to explore the worlds of your imagination pretending to be whoever you want, however you want. This is not rocket science. Really.
Yes, the ability to create characters of your imagination
in the box is a pretty damn minimal requirement for any starter set. It's far more important to bringing in new players to RPGs than anything else I can think of. It's also vital to giving the box enough playability to assess the game.
When all WoTC has to do is copy Paizo's example, with the benefit of the D&D brand and without the disbenefit of a hopelessly complex rules system to work around*, why do they fail so hard?
*The Paizo PBB does a good job of working around 3e's inherent clunkiness, but they could have done even better if able to start from scratch and make a cleaner system.
Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.
No, a good move (for a game more complex than Mentzer Red Box) is to include both pregens and full chargen rules. Again, the Pathfinder Beginner Box shows how to do it, with a sample pregen for each of the four classes. This gives you the best of both worlds.
Paizo does it for $35, but that includes a $15 flipmat, plus three sheets of excellent heavy cardstock pawns, and their plastic bases. Also the PBB has a 64 page player's book and a fat 96 page GM's book with tons of GMing advice, encounter tables etc - they could have had a 64 page GM's book and still been pretty comprehensive. If WoTC had to skimp on some of that lavishness to get the price point down, they could have - a 64 page player's book with full rules to level 5 and just a 32 page GM's book if they had to be stingy.
Quote from: David Johansen;750846You know what I'd like to see in a starter box one day. Mapping stickers. One sheet for doing your dungeons and another for doing your own world. Because the number one feature they should be pushing is that this is a game where you can create something of your own.
Stickers? That's a fantastic idea, especially for dungeon geomorphs! Wow! :cool::cool::cool:
We have tons of those child's sticker books about the house - the netbook I'm typing this on is plastered with Lego Movie stickers. The technology would be absolutely perfect for swift and easy dungeon creation. I'd buy that for a dollar (or ten).
Quote from: S'mon;750929Yes, the ability to create characters of your imagination in the box is a pretty damn minimal requirement for any starter set. It's far more important to bringing in new players to RPGs than anything else I can think of. It's also vital to giving the box enough playability to assess the game.
When all WoTC has to do is copy Paizo's example, with the benefit of the D&D brand and without the disbenefit of a hopelessly complex rules system to work around*, why do they fail so hard?
*The Paizo PBB does a good job of working around 3e's inherent clunkiness, but they could have done even better if able to start from scratch and make a cleaner system.
But (and agreed it a big but) there is a free phone app for PC generation then you can generate your own PCs whenever you like.
Everyone with a phone (and that is about 90% of the population over 12 , shit I was in Burma last week and everyone in Burma has a smartphone and they have a GDP per capita of $1300) can create D&D characters whenever they like. So anyone coming to your game can get their PC set up and either ewrite it up for play if you are bing a grouch and not allowing phones at the table or track it on an onlice Character sheet.
Quote from: jibbajibba;750934But (and agreed it a big but) there is a free phone app for PC generation then you can generate your own PCs whenever you like.
Everyone with a phone (and that is about 90% of the population over 12 , shit I was in Burma last week and everyone in Burma has a smartphone and they have a GDP per capita of $1300) can create D&D characters whenever they like. So anyone coming to your game can get their PC set up and either ewrite it up for play if you are bing a grouch and not allowing phones at the table or track it on an onlice Character sheet.
Phone apps are a perfectly fine supplement to paper rules, though not something I'd use. But I hate it when my players bring their PF or 4e PC 'on their phone' and then take 5 minutes to locate the necessary info. There's no substitute for paper IME.
IMO "No printed chargen, but you can make one on your phone" is epic marketing fail. It might work for some demographics; it's not going to work for the parents & children 'family game' demographic, which I would have thought was an important target market these days. Nor will it work for people who value the tactile game experience of tabletop play as a break from computer gaming.
I'm getting flashbacks to "shut up! you're not the target market!"
Quote from: Benoist;750780No character gen in the starter set is a no buy from me. I will not buy a D&D boxed set to offer my cousins, nephews, the kids I know etc, that does not include the primary feature of a tabletop role playing game: creating an alter-ego of your own to explore the worlds of your imagination pretending to be whoever you want, however you want. This is not rocket science. Really.
Wait and see.
Quote from: The_Shadow;750786Sounds like Pundit is weaseling around the fact that there is no chargen in the set, which he well knows makes it crippleware.
What part of "this will absolutely not be crippleware" is in the least bit 'weasely'?
You could infer that I'm lying, if you think I'm a liar.
Alternately, you could trust me in that I sincerely feel that the starter set is going to be good.
Quote from: S'mon;750935Phone apps are a perfectly fine supplement to paper rules, though not something I'd use. But I hate it when my players bring their PF or 4e PC 'on their phone' and then take 5 minutes to locate the necessary info. There's no substitute for paper IME.
IMO "No printed chargen, but you can make one on your phone" is epic marketing fail. It might work for some demographics; it's not going to work for the parents & children 'family game' demographic, which I would have thought was an important target market these days. Nor will it work for people who value the tactile game experience of tabletop play as a break from computer gaming.
But you could like you know write the generated PC down on a bit of paper once its done.... Fits on an A5 index card after all.
I have stated elsewhere I would have added a player book to the base set for an extra 10 bucks at about 50 pages and I would sell it stand alone next to the box set as well ... but the Nerdrage at them not providing chargen in a starter set aimed as an entry point product in tandem it would seem with some sort of free char gen option is hysterical.
Why would anyone here be interested in a starter set? Especially if the base rules are exposed as has been suggested. It's truly a sign that you simply can not please RPG fans.
Quote from: Skywalker;750800IMO the move makes it clear that WotC's intended utility of the starter set is a "pay to preview" rather than a set to get new players into the game.
No. My position (again, the ONLY actually INFORMED rather than speculative position here) is that this set will be specifically ideal for bringing new players into the game.
Quote from: David Johansen;750810Put me in the "no-character generation in the starter means I won't buy a single product" camp. It's possible I'd bring it in for the store if people want it, but I'll tell them how much more Pathfinder respects them and puts out a far better product first.
Pathfinder, which has "no-character generation in the starter"?
Quite the double-standard you have going there, particularly when you don't even yet know what WoTC will actually be providing. You've decided in your mind that D&D will provide something with the exact same parameters as Pathfinder, and from that concluded that you will never ever recommend D&D but Pathfinder is to be respected? Quite the bias.
Quote from: Skywalker;750802The fact that their main competitor for D&D has set a benchmark for what the Starter Set should be (even though Pathfinder also has an OGL document that allows for full character creation) just makes this all the more sad.
The D&D starter set will in pretty well every respect end up being a better deal than the pathfinder set.
You know what would be hilarious? If there is some form of char-gen in the starter set (possibly with only a sub-set of classes), but the Pundit can't come out and say so because it falls under the NDA.
Quote from: RPGPundit;750946Pathfinder, which has "no-character generation in the starter"?
Pathfinder Beginner Box has full character generation & advancement rules - 4 classes, 3 races, and 5 levels. You should really take a look at it.
Quote from: dar;750926Whatever else there is, the starter set is a glorified add without chargen. Whatever this secret is can it be part of a toys for tots donation with that add 'starter set' or instead of it? Cause otherwise it doesn't much change the fact that it's cripple ware.
Yeah, Starter Box for Toy donations is officially dead. Giving a family in need something that requires 'net access, a.k.a. at best an additional trip to the library for free 'net access to fully use, is about as kind as giving something that needs 6 C batteries to even turn on. Or a booster of a CCG, instead of a playable starter deck. Or a dollhouse accessory without the star doll of the line. It's just a cruel tease.
Second, parents who'd want to spend family time with their kids, or just get them off the fucking phone for once and interact with meat space, this is total fail. Hey, want your kids to play in Imagination Land and interact with people Face to Face? Well, first have them bust out their smart phone and go to www-.defeatedmybiggestsellingpoint.-com, bring out your crippleware box you just realized is naught but a fucking paid advertisement, and there you go!
I am stunned. It is like a profound display of sheer will to search for such sucking defeat. Way to miss the point of a product.
+1 Maybe some Hasbro marketing support has been lent to WotC.
Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.
The box set includes pre-made characters. You will (as the "teacher" of the game) have the ability via some PDF or online tool to make more. You can pre-gen plenty of options for new players to try out. Most of the new players I have introduced to the hobby in the last 5 years have all asked for either a) a pre-gen or b) for me to make the character with them, translating their questions onto a character sheet (pre-gen by proxy?).
This approach allows newbies to kick the tires on the game, getting knee-deep into the playing parts before having to decide what character options they want. I think this will encourage newbies to try various options as well. People don't invest as much into pre-gens, so the focus will naturally steer towards learning the game and the various options (IMHO).
The Box Set is not targeting the grognard market. It's targeting new players. If you are a grognard the $20 buy-in will simply be a preview for YOU (well, US really...). Otherwise, it's a savvy move to making the game more accessible.
The full rules will be out before year's end. Can you make level 5 in two months? That doesn't seem likely, but in SEPT you can stop kicking around the box set and start your new campaign with FULL char gen. Seems reasonable to me.
I wasn't convinced that WOTC could revitalize D&D or market/produce the game in a manner that would continue the brand in a meaningful manner. This gives me some hope actually. I'm especially encouraged by the desire to take the right amount of time to release the books. As a QA person, I appreciate a focus on quality. :D
Quote from: RPGPundit;750947The D&D starter set will in pretty well every respect end up being a better deal than the pathfinder set.
So, it will contain character creation in the books in the Box Set, as I would consider that to be a requirement to be better in every respect? OK, now I am confused, as Mearls and yourself have said it didn't. :confused:
Quote from: RPGPundit;750947Quite the bias.
:D
Quote from: RPGPundit;750751More importantly, as Mearls recently stated in his twitter account, you will NOT need to buy all of the D&D "core" books to play OR RUN the game. And unless I've been massively lied to, this is not a play on words or a trick; it is exactly what it says it is.
Short of OD&D and the BXetc series None of D&D games have needed everyone to buy all the books. The DM needed the DMG and MM, the players needed the PHB.
So yeah. That could be read as trick wording or empty promise if one isnt aware that this is how D&D has been for a good while now. Hopefully this also means that they arent leaving out classes or races for later books.
Seems ok so far really if they dont royally botch something at the 11th hour.
Quote from: Omega;750954Short of OD&D and the BXetc series None of D&D games have needed everyone to buy all the books. The DM needed the DMG and MM, the players needed the PHB.
That's the thing. Nothing that is being said here is new. It all could be said of 3e and 4e, and it seems to have led to the Starter Set suffering the exact same flaw as they did in those editions.
Until we hear something new, how can you expect expectations to differ.
Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies.
I believe its a bad move. They could have had the four basic classes packed in AND pregens. Especially since pregen characters take up what? two pages max to list say four characters?
You STILL need the rules for stats and how the classes work so whats left out is about a paragraph on how to roll up a character and what it does?
Otherwise how is this starter supposed to work if the classes arent explained?
This is going to be interesting and possibly not in the best of ways.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;750836I'm all for having a Box set aimed at DMs; but not having one aimed at players, to bring new players into the hobby is unconscionably stupid...
The best way to bring new players into the hobby is (and always has been) to turn one of their friends into a DM. Players do not and have never needed to buy a single product to participate.
Quote from: David Johansen;750886Yes and nobody's opposed to free apps and software or even purchased or subscribed ones.
But the core entry point should include character creation. Because the entry point should be a complete game not a crippled preview. D&D is the game where you create your own character and explore fantastic worlds.
What if the core entry point includes a link to the basic-level character generation document and says "use this to make your own characters"? Crippled or not crippled?
Quote from: Skywalker;750838From what everyone is saying (Mearls, Pundit etc), we will be getting character creation by way of a separate free PDF or online character generator, which is exactly what we got under 3e and 4e. Trying to distinguish this release from them is simply obvious bias.
If that was all there was to it, I would be less impressed with the plan.
So, Mearls is saying there's a tier of product somewhere between the starter set and the PHB/MM/DMG we aren't aware of yet.
Assuming that this isn't some sort of online thingamajig (if it is, I'm slightly surprised they're being this mysterious about it), what could it be?
My guesses:
- A bigger complete-in-one-set box. $50 gives you levels 1-maximum and character gen rules. Somehow the starter box is written so that it's not made entirely redundant by the big box but at the same time isn't required to use it. Rules presented represent a basic version of the full rules - all optional rules are stripped out, character optimisation is gone (replaced by default builds for each class), maybe some of the less iconic classes and races are missing.
- An "Expert" box covering levels 6-10 and including character gen.
- A magazine. Each issue contains an adventure, plus the basic character gen rules (with some tweaks each time based on the theme of the adventure - so, for instance, each issue would give you the basic cleric/thief/fighter/mage, whilst if you had a foresty adventure in an issue you'd also get the ranger and druid class).
- A $5 player booklet which includes the player rules from the starter set, plus character gen, plus dice.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;750888Seriously, am I that old "fogey" that I'm out of my mind for wanting some time with family or friends without needing to down load some crap?
Well, all the current subject aside, yes. You are.
For me, half my gaming materials are now on PDF, not to mention most of my campaign notes are on .txt files (which in and of itself probably makes me old fashioned!), and for DCC I have come to love the amazing Crawler app (thus far, the only gaming-related app I use).
My theory is that there will be an online tool of some sort, easily reached via pc or mobile, which grants the user access to all of the classes and races for character creation (and levelling up to say... 5). Like, ALL of them, from an always updated database. That would be pretty cool, actually.
But since the focus will be simple usability for new players, it might be more than just a flat database. It will probably be made to guide the player's choices somehow.
I don't mind electronic access for rpgs these days. Now that I'm a family man, pdfs and text doctuments are far more affordable and take up less precious space.
Theres too much conflicting information and not enough information anymore to say what the hell the boxed set will be or what the three books will be.
So its back to "wait and see" till more is known.
I'm wondering whether there will be conversion notes so that you can port over existing PCs into the game. No char-gen rules because you've already created a character under a different edition.
That way, skeptics can try the game with characters they've already used in other editions to decide whether they want the full monty or not when the 3 core books come out.
Quote from: Warthur;750960What if the core entry point includes a link to the basic-level character generation document and says "use this to make your own characters"? Crippled or not crippled?
Incomplete game in the starter box equals crippled plain and simple.
Quote from: One Horse Town;750976I'm wondering whether there will be conversion notes so that you can port over existing PCs into the game. No char-gen rules because you've already created a character under a different edition.
That way, skeptics can try the game with characters they've already used in other editions to decide whether they want the full monty or not when the 3 core books come out.
That's a good, no, great idea, but what if you are a NEW player and just want to create your own character instead of using a pre-gen?
I've talked myself down from the ledge. RPGPundit says he likes it. That's good enough for me.
I'm filled with ambivalence and ennui but I'm not ready to stab the devs in the nuts like I was last night.
Quote from: Scott Anderson;750979I've talked myself down from the ledge. RPGPundit says he likes it. That's good enough for me.
I'm filled with ambivalence and ennui but I'm not ready to stab the devs in the nuts like I was last night.
They don't understand D&D at all. Not one bit. ...Not sure why they are even selling this.
The single best selling D&D book of all time included chargen. They are still so busy showing everyone
how much smarter they are compared to the guys and gals who originally designed and sold D&D that they are missing the boat on what really needs to be in place for them to have a bestseller.
All they have to do is look at their rivals. Pathfinder, the current bestselling iteration of D&D, happens to include chargen.
To omit that from an introductory set designed to introduce people to the game, is to omit an important part of the game from the introductory set.
dumb. dumb. dumb.
Out of the entire lifespan of the development of 5th ed., I've never been more confused than I am right now.
A starter set that doesn't contain chargen but players can create characters. A starter set that is aimed at DMs...DMs that apparently don't need chargen. However that chargen is available somehow. But it isn't a pdf because then it might as well have been in the box, and also because if it was only that (or only an online character builder) then Pundit wouldn't think it was all that neat. Crippleware that must be crippleware but isn't crippleware.
A game that beats D&D at its own game in sales develops a beginner box and virtually everyone (even those who don't care for the game itself) heaps praise and universally says: "FINALLY!" buys it to show their support and then D&D says "Meh. Why bother matching or one-upping our competitor?"
320 x 3 pages to pretend to be an elf.
Truly tis wondrous strange.
From a personal standpoint, the only thing that would outrage me would be an online paywall for basic character generation, and I'm almost certain that's not what they have in mind.
However, I can understand the frustration expressed by others concerning the need for some kind of chargen feature in the basic set.
I don't know how this is going to be reconciled, but his track record says that Pundit is neither a liar nor a fool and there's obviously more to this than what we've heard so far, so I'd recommend that we all wait at least a few more days and see how it plays out.
...Well doing online RPG stuff is just not a good idea. There are so many better iterations of this already out there, and WOTC demonstrated conclusively that they can't compete in that arena... Gleemax failed. Not sure how the D&D character builder fared that was a part of the online paywall they had setup because I never subscribed... not even for a trial.
The guy that introduces people to pen & paper tabletop games, and leaves them with a set of rules to figure out how to play on their own? That's me. ...Except I'm not leaving them with any game that doesn't have built-in rules for creating new characters.
If I was to teach someone how to build an online RPG, I would have them download a copy of Unity3d and Blender, and get them working on building their own 3d game... with chargen.
...In all of these scenarios, there is no room for a starter set that doesn't include chargen.
...Also want to keep away from fostering a dependence on any set of rules that may, or may not be there, in the future.
You have a great set of rules online? ...Great
What happens when your website goes down?
What happens when the power goes out?
What happens when your gamers are all at summer camp, with no electricity, and no cell coverage?
What happens when the batteries die on your droid or ipad or whatever...
What happens when for whatever reason, you can't pay your monthly subscription?
In all of these cases, If you have a game that is available from some website or as part of an online database, when you have no access, you have no game.
Compare that to a starter set that is printed, that includes Chargen rules. Players can still play, ...and they don't have to pay.
Which is better?
Which is better for the players?
So why isn't it being done that way?
I love how everyone here is jumping to the conclusion that this is all about some online functionality when neither Mearls nor Pundit have said anything of the sort.
Quote from: The_Shadow;750940I'm getting flashbacks to "shut up! you're not the target market!"
Ding.
Quote from: GameDaddy;750982They don't understand D&D at all. Not one bit. ...Not sure why they are even selling this.
The single best selling D&D book of all time included chargen. They are still so busy showing everyone how much smarter they are compared to the guys and gals who originally designed and sold D&D that they are missing the boat on what really needs to be in place for them to have a bestseller.
All they have to do is look at their rivals. Pathfinder, the current bestselling iteration of D&D, happens to include chargen.
But including chargen in your starter set is
so 2011! These days all the kids are into online apps! :rolleyes:
Quote from: S'mon;750989But including chargen in your starter set is so 2011! These days all the kids are into online apps! :rolleyes:
I'm sure Pathfinder has some great online apps. Probably designed by faithful players.
My point is, that chargen should be included as part of the service.
It's really all about hidden systems that deliver unforgettable customer experiences, and chargen just happens to be one of those systems.
Raise your hand if there was even a single day when, for whatever reason, you just couldn't get together with your gaming peeps. What did you do?Got out the rules book, and made yourself happy
...by creating new characters, and trying out new variations for the next game you would all play together!!!It's a subsystem that is suitable for solitaire play. It is a subsyetm of RPGs that has more than one applicable use.
But not with 5e. Wasn't included with the starter set.
Really the only difference between a B/X character and a "pregen" is a name and maybe a picture. If the set describes how to use the 4 pregen pcs and what their abilities are, then it has described how to play archetype fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. The rest of character generation is roll 3d6, pick equipment.
I'm willing to wait and see but if this train requires an electronic device of any kind to fully realize chargen then I'm off before it even reaches the station.
Quote from: GameDaddy;750992Raise your hand if there was even a single day when, for whatever reason, you just couldn't get together with your gaming peeps. What did you do?
Got out the rules book, and made yourself happy ...by creating new characters, and trying out new variations for the next game you would all play together!!!
I agree that this is part of the fun of gaming, but honestly, as a GM who often had to cope with last minute cancellations or gaming droughts, I didn't need a rulebook or character creation instructions to make up NPCs and cool settings.
As a PLAYER, though, yeah I guess that one would, if they wanted to create new characters mechanically and not just conceptually.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;750998I'm willing to wait and see but if this train requires an electronic device of any kind to fully realize chargen then I'm off before it even reaches the station.
I have a feeling that this feature will only be tied to the Starter Kit. If you get the full books I'd assume that you'd have everything you'd need.
Quote from: GameDaddy;750992Raise your hand if there was even a single day when, for whatever reason, you just couldn't get together with your gaming peeps. What did you do?
Got out the rules book, and made yourself happy ...by creating new characters, and trying out new variations for the next game you would all play together!!!
See, this may be a generational thing, because sitting around solo-generating PCs (many of whom would presumably never see actual play) is very, very low on the list of things I'd do to kill time on a lazy day when my gaming peeps aren't around, considering how many distractions are available to me.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;750998I'm willing to wait and see but if this train requires an electronic device of any kind to fully realize chargen then I'm off before it even reaches the station.
I'm with you on that one.
Are they going to overhaul the DDI character builder? (I don't keep up with these things)
or are they just going to leave it there hanging like a vestigial limb?
I'm not deep into using specific apps, but it's simply too easy to manage a campaign on Google Docs/Obsidian Portal/using PDF's etc. with a tablet or laptop on hand.
But if you don't own a laptop/tablet... I could understand the the frustration of missing out (if indeed this is the case) on chargen PDFs/apps. The whole cagey nature of this rollout seems weird to me. /shrug
We'll all know soon enough.
Quote from: tenbones;751014The whole cagey nature of this rollout seems weird to me. /shrug
We'll all know soon enough.
Yeah, I don't get why they're being timid either. If there's some intermediate tier of product or offering which will make this all make sense and win us around, shouldn't they be trumpeting that as loud as they can?
As it stands, the way I see it we have two possibilities: either Wizards have genuinely changed their approach and there's some surprising product coming along which will make all of this make sense and save the Starter Set from being crippleware, or Pundit's been fooled into pissing away his credibility as a zealously uncompromising defender of real gaming over this starter box. I'm going to hope that Pundit's right, on the basis that if he's wrong my disappointment will be soothed by the royal roasting he'll get on here.
Whilst I agree that a roleplaying game should be playable without requiring a smartphone/tablet/computer, there is a massive opportunity for Wizards to create some official D&D apps.
Off the top of my head, I would start off with a fairly simple "Player's Assistant"-type app that supports the generation and maintenance of multiple characters, with the ability to do contextual rolls (e.g. a Listen check of Average difficulty, would automatically incorporate the applicable modifiers, as opposed to a simple 1d20+x+y+z rolls which you then compare against the target number).
Tie it into a website that replicates the app's functionality, keeps an audit trail of all rolls/tests, stat adjustments, XP usage, etc., and allows you to export your character sheet as a PDF to print off.
Freemium pricing model - you can create and manage one character for free. If you want more, you pay an annual subscription.
Later, add DM functionality and a "DM's Assistant" app, and charge a slightly higher amount for a DM subscription. Experiment with offering adventures as a package of online content that you buy and use through the website/app.
There's so much revenue-generation potential in embracing smartphones and tablets as a medium to complement the traditional tabletop, pen'n'paper roleplaying experience. It continues to astound me that Wizards (and Games Workshop) are essentially leaving money on the table.
Currently at $17.99 on Amazon. That's £10.65, and people are moaning. I spent double that on beers yesterday. What do you want for £10/$17, who cares if there isn't charater gen included.
The Player's handbook is at $40.48 on Amazon. That's £24, and people are moaning. £24, that's lunch and a few ales, pizza and a movie.
Is America that broke that $40 dollars is considered a lot of cash? Really? The last lot of Academic books I bought came to $337, for four books. If people are so aggrieved about the costs they really need to reconnect with reality.
Quote from: Dodger;751017There's so much revenue-generation potential in embracing smartphones and tablets as a medium to complement the traditional tabletop, pen'n'paper roleplaying experience. It continues to astound me that Wizards (and Games Workshop) are essentially leaving money on the table.
As a compliment to the game I have no objections. As an integral part of the game I won't touch it.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751023As a compliment to the game I have no objections. As an integral part of the game I won't touch it.
Did you miss the bit where I said:
Quote from: Dodger;751017..I agree that a roleplaying game should be playable without requiring a smartphone/tablet/computer...
:P
Here's another post from RPG Pundit: https://plus.google.com/108006304228021078063/posts/AEAWuzFiBfz
What's going to happen is neither exactly an online chargen tool or an SRD (actually, either of those may or may not be in the works, I can neither confirm nor deny that, but that's not what Mike Mearls was talking about).
Wizards is NOT "still working out the details"; I had myself been informed of the general plan for all this back around October-November of last year, and was told some of the specifics (of what is now fully planned and going ahead) back around Mid-March.[/QUOTE]
I think people are sort of missing the point of the starter set. To me at least the starter set = basic dnd. There are no character gen options in Basic dnd other then im gonna play this archetype. You dont need online builders or phone apps for the basic set, because there arn't that many options and thats a good thing. What the starter set does is teach people how to play dnd. How to hit things, how to sneak and search, what all of funny words mean.
What it also hopefully does is set up a solid framework upon which to add options. Just like when I bought my 2nd ed MM as a kid and used it with B/X for quite some time before buying an ADnD PHB. And those two systems weren't even 100% compatible. So as long as its the same as difference between Dnd and ADnD its not "crippleware"
Quote from: elfandghost;751019Is America that broke that $40 dollars is considered a lot of cash? Really?
In some cases, sure, but really we're just overly wealthy of entitlement and rage.
Another thought: if the Starter Set is just the four core classic races and the Greyhawk Four classes, and the rules are stripped of all the options so it's a game of ability modifiers, ability saves, and dis/advantage, and that set is aimed at GMs, it's conceivable there isn't even a need for formal chargen rules. If the game is b/x simple (or simpler), even a passing familiarity with the pregens and the base rules could give the DM all the knowledge needed to crank out super simple PCs (and by extension teach the process).
Or what if the player equivalent of the Starter Set, with the chargen, is a small print pamphlet that Wizards just gives away everywhere? As in, for free. Talk about putting D&D in the hands of the masses. "Want to try D&D? Here's everything you need to make a character, here's what to expect, now find a game! Can't find one? Run one! Buy the Starter Set.." Hell "roll 3d6 in order" fits on a bookmark and might be all you need, coupled with advancement tables and equipment lists in the Starter Set.
Really I understand why everyone is assuming online tools but we really don't know yet, and anyone who actually knows is saying, "wait and see," which is perhaps not comforting but is interesting.
And while I agree making characters is a primal, necessary part of the hobby, especially for newbies, it is amusing to watch guys who could accidentally fart out a 1e Paladin in their sleep bitch about lack of chargen rules.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751028There are no character gen options in Basic dnd
what
Quote from: matthulhu;751030And while I agree making characters is a primal, necessary part of the hobby, especially for newbies, it is amusing to watch guys who could accidentally fart out a 1e Paladin in their sleep bitch about lack of chargen rules.
That's some amazing cognitive dissonance you've got going there.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;751031what
I should have clarified. There are no mechanical Character options in Basic dnd other than picking your class and I suppose your stats, equipment, and spells but the mechanically these really dont matter overmuch.
There are no feats, skills, backgrounds, anything that effects the way the game is played at character creation.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751039I should have clarified. There are no mechanical Character options in Basic dnd other than picking your class and I suppose your stats, equipment, and spells but the mechanically these really dont matter overmuch.
There are no feats, skills, backgrounds, anything that effects the way the game is played at character creation.
The DM typically (per RAW) assigned Spells, and stats were randomly generated. It was roll dice, pick a class/shuffle stats, roll gold and buy equipment. I can see something like this in the Starter Set, and not calling it character generation simply because it doesn't encompass the breadth of the character generation rules from Next. Can you imagine the hue and cry about bait-and-switch if they called it "Character Generation", and it was as programmed as the above?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;751032That's some amazing cognitive dissonance you've got going there.
If I didn't have a strong taste for the ol' CD I would do well to avoid the internet in general, and D&D forums in particular.
And I'm not disagreeing with the Paladin-farters, my admittedly piqued interest in 5e is done like burnt steak if this turns out to be a bait and switch of any kind. They'd have to pay
me if they even want me to look at an online character builder. Analog chargen is vital. But none of us who are aware enough to be concerned about it actually needs those rules. We can crank out 1st level D&D mans with just three dice and an index card until the giant cows come home.
Exactly. and just like you can't make an ADnD pc with B/X you wont be able to make a "full" pc with the starter set. It doesn't mean its bad. B/X is awesome.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751039I should have clarified. There are no mechanical Character options in Basic dnd other than picking your class and I suppose your stats, equipment, and spells but the mechanically these really dont matter overmuch.
There are no feats, skills, backgrounds, anything that effects the way the game is played at character creation.
Lack of detailed character customization =/= lack of character generation options. There are plenty of options in B/X.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751039There are no feats, skills, backgrounds, anything that effects the way the game is played at character creation.
I have 2 editions of "Basic" D&D - the one edited by JE Holmes and the one edited by Dave Cook. Both of them have more than that. Both have: spells, bonuses for high stats, spells, racial abilities.
I have no idea what you're going on about.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751043The DM typically (per RAW) assigned Spells, and stats were randomly generated. It was roll dice, pick a class/shuffle stats, roll gold and buy equipment. I can see something like this in the Starter Set, and not calling it character generation simply because it doesn't encompass the breadth of the character generation rules from Next. Can you imagine the hue and cry about bait-and-switch if they called it "Character Generation", and it was as programmed as the above?
If you get to roll stats, pick a class, buy gear, and advance your character through play then it IS char-gen (as opposed to char-build) as far as I'm concerned.
I can't understand why excluding something so simple and easy would be considered a good design decision.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;751013I'm with you on that one.
Same here. I mean, I totally get why they would want to tap into that direction because it's huge in our society. And I myself do occassionally find electronic assistance nice (I love the Core Rules CD ROM).
That all being said? It better not be mandatory. Not at all. I want to play the full damn game with a pencil, dice, and books. That's it.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751047Exactly. and just like you can't make an ADnD pc with B/X you wont be able to make a "full" pc with the starter set. It doesn't mean its bad. B/X is awesome.
B/X != introductory-to-AD&D*. They're their own games. And they both have complete character construction rules.
...
*=the JE Holmes edited "D&D" rulebook has some last-minute additions from Gary about "If you've want you can check out AD&D for different character classes" in the first few pages.
Well, this isn't B/X or even B, it's a starter set for the three books coming down the line. Learn to play for a few months, then start expanding.
This is not an evergreen box and it was never meant to be, it's for getting new people to play.
There's some piece we don't know about yet, so just gonna kick it and wait.
Quote from: Saladman;750948You know what would be hilarious? If there is some form of char-gen in the starter set (possibly with only a sub-set of classes), but the Pundit can't come out and say so because it falls under the NDA.
That's my theory 4 races and classes. Technically no character generation.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751060Well, this isn't B/X or even B, it's a starter set for the three books coming down the line. Learn to play for a few months, then start expanding.
This is not an evergreen box and it was never meant to be, it's for getting new people to play.
There's some piece we don't know about yet, so just gonna kick it and wait.
Exactly.
Quote from: Skywalker;750879So, were you sold on D&D3e and Pathfinder for the same reason?
Character creation and advancement are specifically omitted from the 3e SRD.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;751052Both have: spells, bonuses for high stats, spells, racial abilities.
Uh-hunh. And players chose those, did they? Oh, wait - no, they didn't. They rolled randomly, and picked a class. Or, at least, that was Moldvay and Mentzer - I never owned Holmes - and it is not inconceivable that calling that "character generation" when the full Next rules encompass far more than that will be far more damaging to WotC than understating what is present in the Starter Set.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751060This is not an evergreen box and it was never meant to be, it's for getting new people to play.
That'll be deeply unfortunate if it isn't. D&D could do with such a product sitting on toystore shelves as an easy buy in for new players.
The bottom line here is that there is no goddam reason why you couldn't have character gen apps and online campaign tools and all that, IN ADDITION to an actual character gen process included on the page, black and white, in the starter set, along with the pregens.
Any thing else is just gravy. That's the core of the issue here. So if WotC mouth-pieces are just saying "wait for the awesome app/digital thing whatnot", then that means the point above stands: The Starter Set is a crippleware ad copy, and that doesn't change that fact.
If however there is something about the Starter Set ITSELF we don't know about, that makes this point moot, then I'm REALLY curious to know what it is. My problem with this whole thing is that the whole core experience of a role playing game should be distilled in one entry offering, one box, complete, without downloads, without getting a DDI subscription, or getting the iPhone out of the pocket, NONE of those things.
If the statement of WotC is "This Starter Set does not include character gen but it IS complete and includes the whole core experience of a role playing game in one single product, no apps, no digital anything, nothing else required" then I am very very curious to know under which circumstances that statement would make any sense.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751028I think people are sort of missing the point of the starter set. To me at least the starter set = basic dnd. There are no character gen options in Basic dnd other then im gonna play this archetype. You dont need online builders or phone apps for the basic set, because there arn't that many options and thats a good thing. What the starter set does is teach people how to play dnd. How to hit things, how to sneak and search, what all of funny words mean.
What it also hopefully does is set up a solid framework upon which to add options. Just like when I bought my 2nd ed MM as a kid and used it with B/X for quite some time before buying an ADnD PHB. And those two systems weren't even 100% compatible. So as long as its the same as difference between Dnd and ADnD its not "crippleware"
I get what you are saying, and I agree.
Really, you want to be a fighter? Here's a fighter. Go.
Fighter is a fighter dudes.
It's like Diablo. You choose the Fighter and then go. Just get into the game and start slaying stuff.
Later Diablo games (II and III) were weighed down with so many options. I don't prefer them.
I just want to start the game, have minimal choices, and start killing stuff.
I give my guy a name, develop some personality, and go.
Isn't that what we've all been on about? It's about the personality and how we represent his fighting style in play, not all the widgets that tell us what we can and cannot do?
I will be refreshed if all I have to do is say: I'm playing a fighter tonight. Let's go.
I don't care about stats, etc. He's strong, he's weak, he's normal. Who cares, I'm gonna roll the dice and kill stuff. And when he dies, I'm gonna jump right back in again. Another fighter. Let's go.
Quote from: Benoist;751074The bottom line here is that there is no goddam reason why you couldn't have character gen apps and online campaign tools and all that, IN ADDITION to an actual character gen process included on the page, black and white, in the starter set, along with the pregens..
Unless there IS a reason, and you just have not thought of it yet.
It's possible in a starter set to take players through chargen without having a full set of chargen rules in the book.
In fact, it makes sense. Start the book with with a 'What are RPGs?' section, go on to 'What are Characters?' complete with 4-6 examples of chargen which then give you your pregens with which to play the material contained in the starter-set.
It takes you through chargen, teaches you the important parts and terminology of the game and hopefully leaves you wanting more when the full game comes out.
Quote from: Mistwell;751083Unless there IS a reason, and you just have not thought of it yet.
Do you have a guess? If so, I'd like to hear it. (seriously, it's not sarcasm)
Quote from: Benoist;751074My problem with this whole thing is that the whole core experience of a role playing game should be distilled in one entry offering, one box, complete, without downloads, without getting a DDI subscription, or getting the iPhone out of the pocket, NONE of those things.
This! There really needs to be one physical, tangible product that, if someone owns, that can play D&D with it, forever.
I have to believe there will be apps and downloads. It'd be stupid to not have these things; that's the present day reality.
I also have to believe there is no requirement for any of the digital offerings or I start to get an aneurysm.
Even saying it's not required is not enough, it has to be actually completely optional such that it's not a terrible inconvenience to forgo the digital offering. You can technically create a 4e character using paper and books but it takes a special kind of savant to voluntarily do such a thing. Hell I can't be bothered to do a full 3e character by hand, buying ranks and reading feat lists kills my interest in gaming awful quick. So 3e is an edge case but 4e? Almost disingenuous to say you don't need the online tools.
Playtest chargen is a snap, and if the SS has half those options (no backgrounds, no feats, 4 classes) you really would be hard pressed to convince someone a digital tool is even with the time loading into RAM, compared to the moment it takes to make your guy.
There's also the semantics angle: they don't want to call the basic generation method in the SS by name because some people would be alienated to find out you can't make a half dragon, half angel samurai wizard with a d12 hit die. Probably it's not just a semantics thing but it is within the realm of possibility that is our gap in knowledge about the specifics of 5e.
Quote from: Benoist;751074...the whole core experience of a role playing game should be distilled in one entry offering, one box, complete, without downloads, without getting a DDI subscription, or getting the iPhone out of the pocket, NONE of those things.
I agree, and I am very, very curious to see if they've achieved this or not. The one product and you're good to go (as a start) is super important, particularly if you want to get it in to more mass-market venues (e.g. toystores), and they are surely going to want to do that.
It's not inconceivable to play D&D without stats, either, especially at a basic level. Cut stats and replace with "apply your proficiency bonus to tasks and saves within your class's bailiwick" and now you really don't need character generation rules, especially with a few equipment kits instead of the usual price list.
Quote from: 1989;751078I get what you are saying, and I agree.
Really, you want to be a fighter? Here's a fighter. Go.
Fighter is a fighter dudes.
It's like Diablo. You choose the Fighter and then go. Just get into the game and start slaying stuff.
Later Diablo games (II and III) were weighed down with so many options. I don't prefer them.
I just want to start the game, have minimal choices, and start killing stuff.
I give my guy a name, develop some personality, and go.
Isn't that what we've all been on about? It's about the personality and how we represent his fighting style in play, not all the widgets that tell us what we can and cannot do?
I will be refreshed if all I have to do is say: I'm playing a fighter tonight. Let's go.
I don't care about stats, etc. He's strong, he's weak, he's normal. Who cares, I'm gonna roll the dice and kill stuff. And when he dies, I'm gonna jump right back in again. Another fighter. Let's go.
My sentiments exactly.
Quote from: elfandghost;751019Currently at $17.99 on Amazon. That's £10.65, and people are moaning. I spent double that on beers yesterday. What do you want for £10/$17, who cares if there isn't charater gen included.
The Player's handbook is at $40.48 on Amazon. That's £24, and people are moaning. £24, that's lunch and a few ales, pizza and a movie.
Is America that broke that $40 dollars is considered a lot of cash? Really? The last lot of Academic books I bought came to $337, for four books. If people are so aggrieved about the costs they really need to reconnect with reality.
I don't know about Americans, but there does seem to be an element of the RPG community that expects to buy and play a game forever for about $30 US. It's worth noting this attitude is not shared by boardgame hobbyists.
But unrealistic expectations aside, most if this is nerds being outraged on behalf of others. Won't somebody think of the children!? Never mind the audience of 12-18 year olds WotC is probably aiming at don't seem to have any problem buying loads of Warhammer Miniatures and Magic booster packs.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751060Well, this isn't B/X or even B, it's a starter set for the three books coming down the line. Learn to play for a few months, then start expanding.
This is not an evergreen box and it was never meant to be, it's for getting new people to play.
There's some piece we don't know about yet, so just gonna kick it and wait.
Pretty much. It's not Moldvay or Mentzner, and it's not trying to be. The core books are the game. The starter set is the cheap introduction to that game. Not tough to understand.
Quote from: matthulhu;751097It's not inconceivable to play D&D without stats, either, especially at a basic level. Cut stats and replace with "apply your proficiency bonus to tasks and saves within your class's bailiwick" and now you really don't need character generation rules, especially with a few equipment kits instead of the usual price list.
I've been thinking of something like Laminated cards & dry erase. IE: the pre-gen says something like "at level 2 choose "Slayer" and do +2 damage or choose "deadly" and get a +2 to hit. Something like ... the first 5 levels built in to the pre-gen sheet. Kind of like how some of the old boardgames used to use Leveling.
Quote from: 1989;751078I don't care about stats, etc. He's strong, he's weak, he's normal. Who cares, I'm gonna roll the dice and kill stuff. And when he dies, I'm gonna jump right back in again. Another fighter. Let's go.
Exactly. It's bizarre seeing grognards who hold the
character isn't what's on the character sheet as a kind of holy tenet complaining that a $20 introductory product aimed at total newbies doesn't have enough chargen.
Heck, I learned with the Holmes Basic set, and for the first few months just used the pre-gens out of the back of B1. Krago of the Mountains. Glendor the Fourth. Weberran of the North. Great stuff.
Look at all the angry little edition warriors running out and screeching that the mean old grognards are being mean old grognards.
Screech, angry little edition warriors, screech.
Or, maybe, you could y'know put down the stupid for a minute and recognize that this is a thing some of us would actually like to see succeed and realize we think that not putting the fucking character generation in the set so that someone who takes it home has a complete game and they don't have to fuck around with a maybe-available? website? and/or get a PDF to print out?
Nah, that'd require thinking on your part. So screech away, keep pointing out how we don't love it enough and it's our fault.
Despite every hope we have that this will be good.
Quote from: 1989;751078It's like Diablo. You choose the Fighter and then go. Just get into the game and start slaying stuff.
The video game comparison is apt when you consider the target audience. Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.
Consider the highly influential
World of Warcraft's "character gen": Pick a faction, pick a race, pick a class, go. No feats , no skills, no talent trees, all the complexity shows up gradually in the course of play.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;751118Or, maybe, you could y'know put down the stupid for a minute and recognize that this is a thing some of us would actually like to see succeed and realize we think that not putting the fucking character generation in the set so that someone who takes it home has a complete game and they don't have to fuck around with a maybe-available? website? and/or get a PDF to print out?
Oh hell yes.
This reminds me of a situation from a couple years ago. We had some severe thunderstorms/ hurricane like weather going on. The power went out so we broke out the battery powered radio to listen for updates on the storm.
The radio station basically just said there was a storm and to go to their Facebook page for details. :confused: The whole area without power and the station literally saying go online for details? It was a slow clap moment.
Online stuff is nice to have but the meat & potatoes should come with the package.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751127The video game comparison is apt when you consider the target audience. Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.
Consider the highly influential World of Warcraft's "character gen": Pick a faction, pick a race, pick a class, go. No feats , no skills, no talent trees, all the complexity shows up gradually in the course of play.
Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for this kind of approach. Something like what bryce0lynch just mentioned would be along these lines...and really, it's not that different from Mentzer, for example.
So maybe the "pregens" are mostly-blank slates and you fill them in by playing the first of the provided sample adventures, perhaps?
Quote from: Warthur;751141So maybe the "pregens" are mostly-blank slates and you fill them in by playing the first of the provided sample adventures, perhaps?
I don't know. WOTC could very well be so obtuse as to call a character without a hundred customizable mechanical widgets a "pregen".
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751144I don't know. WOTC could very well be so obtuse as to call a character without a hundred customizable mechanical widgets a "pregen".
Or, as mentioned elsewhere in this three-thread hoedown, it could be that they reckon the 3E/4E fanbase would get crazy-angry if they
did call it character generation. ("You said there'd be character gen in this box but there's no rules for optimising the fighter class to make my two-weapon fighter who uses a bohemian earspoon in his left hand and an actual spoon in his right!")
Say something isn't in the box and then provide it and people will be happy it gives them more than they expected. Say something is in the box and don't provide it to the extent people expect and you'll get people grumping about you not delivering on your promises. I can certainly believe that the crowd pining for Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer is dwarfed in the current audience by the 3E/4E crowd, given how 3E and 4E conversations logged by ENWorld's "hot games" charts typically far outstrip the amount of conversation around old school editions.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751127The video game comparison is apt when you consider the target audience. Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.
Consider the highly influential World of Warcraft's "character gen": Pick a faction, pick a race, pick a class, go. No feats , no skills, no talent trees, all the complexity shows up gradually in the course of play.
The video game crowd (WoW in particular) was the target audience of 4e as well. Look how that turned out. I thought the lesson to be learned there was NOT to turn D&D into something it's not in order to appeal to "today's kids."
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751127Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.
There are some games that allow you to skip the tutorial completely, either by having an optional Tutorial in the main menu or having a "Skip Tutorial" prompt in-game.
I have no idea how that usability translates into tabletop rpgs but...
Quote from: Warthur;751147Or, as mentioned elsewhere in this three-thread hoedown, it could be that they reckon the 3E/4E fanbase would get crazy-angry if they did call it character generation. ("You said there'd be character gen in this box but there's no rules for optimising the fighter class to make my two-weapon fighter who uses a bohemian earspoon in his left hand and an actual spoon in his right!")
Yes, I think that's distinctly possible.
Quote from: aspiringlich;751150The video game crowd (WoW in particular) was the target audience of 4e as well. Look how that turned out. I thought the lesson to be learned there was NOT to turn D&D into something it's not in order to appeal to "today's kids."
Just because you're building a tabletop RPG and not a video game doesn't mean you have nothing to learn from another medium. cRPGs have certainly gained a great deal from tabletop. The trick (as ever) is to learn the right lessons and apply them properly. So this:
Quote from: Necrozius;751152There are some games that allow you to skip the tutorial completely, either by having an optional Tutorial in the main menu or having a "Skip Tutorial" prompt in-game.
I have no idea how that usability translates into tabletop rpgs but...
...works by having a Starter Set that walks you through early play, doesn't overwhelm you with character generation options, and gives you enough to get going. And it's completely optional with the PHB, DMG, and MM representing the meat of the game.
Here my currently operating theory, Wizard advantage is marketing reach and distribution. So they put out a character creation booklet that is literally everywhere in the gaming world. You need flyers and brochures, so why not make abridged character creation rules (i.e. four classes, level 1 to 5) the pitch instead of the usual marketing blurbs.
While the buyer knows that the Pathfinder boxed set is a complete games. But like most games the only way to truly know what it's like is by buying it and opening the box for yourself.
The above avoids that problem. By making the character creations rules widely available, customers can look at them for free. Then decide to buy the starter kit. (And later the PHB, etc). This would also address the widespread trust issue caused by the 4e fallout. "Here are the character creation rules! Decide before you buy in!"
The booklet is not included because it is intended freely available in physical and digital form.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751053If you get to roll stats, pick a class, buy gear, and advance your character through play then it IS char-gen (as opposed to char-build) as far as I'm concerned.
I can't understand why excluding something so simple and easy would be considered a good design decision.
For WoTC it may be a good decision. You have to ask, good for whom? And for what purpose?
An add that drives folks to the web site, some one at WotC may have considered that a good use of the starter set.
Edit: Note I don't think it's a GOOD idea, but it is an idea.
From a business perspective, why would I want to include a whole game in a boxed set? I make money by selling the game. You make more money from $150 in core books than $40 for a box set (assuming a higher price point for a complete game vs. an intro game). How many potential players will nab the box set and never upgrade?
Where should the focus really be if I want to introduce new players and build a thriving base of customers? On the players? DMs buy more stuff! Every DM I create I have a potential customer interested in ALL the books I create. All the supplements. All the support materials. Without a DM I don't have the 4-6 players sitting around a table playing my game - 4-6 players who will probably buy a Players Handbook! This approach is super smart. Create new DMs, encourage them to find new players, and then I have this self-perpetuating consumer unit. A regular game with players keeps the DM interested in new products. A regular game encourages the players to be interested in new options for the game.
Look at board and card games. Dominion has how many supplements and spin off games now? Arkham horror? Settlers? A good business model involves a focus on repeat business. RPGs are not cars, or homes, or boats or timeshares. The publisher of today needs to figure out a way to keep the customers coming back for more. The publisher of today needs to create a regular stream of quality products that encourages the GM and players to consume on a regular basis. You can't survive on one hit of $150 from your customer base in a year (or worse, $40 or $20...).
Not sure why this business model is so vilified in our hobby. It's so standard I don't get how anyone would expect a business to thrive otherwise.
Quote from: aspiringlich;751150The video game crowd (WoW in particular) was the target audience of 4e as well. Look how that turned out.
Ah, but in this particular department 4e did it wrong. It was heavily front-loaded. Proper Character creation usually took longer than even 3e's did. Far too long. Too many choices.
I say this as someone who liked many of 4e's actual video game ideas.
Quote from: estar;751167Here my currently operating theory, Wizard advantage is marketing reach and distribution. So they put out a character creation booklet that is literally everywhere in the gaming world. You need flyers and brochures, so why not make abridged character creation rules (i.e. four classes, level 1 to 5) the pitch instead of the usual marketing blurbs.
While the buyer knows that the Pathfinder boxed set is a complete games. But like most games the only way to truly know what it's like is by buying it and opening the box for yourself.
The above avoids that problem. By making the character creations rules widely available, customers can look at them for free. Then decide to buy the starter kit. (And later the PHB, etc). This would also address the widespread trust issue caused by the 4e fallout. "Here are the character creation rules! Decide before you buy in!"
The booklet is not included because it is intended freely available in physical and digital form.
Assuming the print would be available upon request, that you could get X copies by mail at any time, put them back in the box yourself to offer to people, which means it would not just available as a free PDF or app or whatnot, AND that this booklet would be an evergreen product reprinted over and over, not a one time thing just for launch, that is actually something I could work with.
It would be dumb not to have the booklet in the box
AS WELL, in the first place, but I could work around it and hand it over to people after a game and whatnot (assuming the game is good as an intro product of course, which still remains to be seen).
If it requires an internet connection, a download, or worse, a DDI subscription, it's game over, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: estar;751167So they put out a character creation booklet that is literally everywhere in the gaming world.
The more this stews around the more I think the reason we don't know about the Mystery Product is that it isn't a product. It's a freebie. If they just put a free booklet with very basic chargen, just enough to play in a Starter Set campaign, there will be legions- LEGIONS- of D&D characters looking for campaigns to play in. And those characters will be compatible with the new D&D, but not too incompatible with most other D&D games, either. And, of course it will also be an ad for the PHB.
But think about the impact of a completely free mini-PHB that gets B/X simple characters up and running in minutes. I know this is a HUGE if in the long run, but it's not much more improbable than online-only tools. And they could even be looking at that free PHBish thing to be the bulk of print marketing.
I think WotC is taking a pro-DM stance here, by making ready and eager players with simple characters (not hawt buildz) a dime a dozen.
Edit: or we're all being lubed up for a jolly good Wizarding with a Mearls-shaped Rod of Many Blushes.
Quote from: trechriron;751175Not sure why this business model is so vilified in our hobby. It's so standard I don't get how anyone would expect a business to thrive otherwise.
Perhaps because some of us remember when this was a hobby for the benefit of hobbyists, not merely a product to benefit a company.
Paizo put out a full playable game as a boxed set and they seem to be doing alright.
I think it is pretty odd not to include character creation rules in the starter set. I get that they might have a rationale for not doing so, and I don't think it is the end of the world if the starter is less than stellar, but it is one of those things where, if you are going to do it, you want it to be solid, and putting character creation online feels like I am getting less if I buy the starter. I really don't think this is a huge issue. For me the core books are what matter. I do feel character creation is important for just starting out (not for everyone but for many of us it was a key pleasure of learning to game) and it just makes sense to make that sexy by having it in the starter set itself. If they have a character creation app for newbies that is great. I think that would be a huge help (the character creation CD for 3E really did help me recruit new players). It should just be on top of having it in the Starter in my opinion.
Again hardly the end of the world, hardly a sign that they don't understand what they are doing. I just think it is a questionable call (and probably driven by the need to keep the thing at 20 bucks).
Quote from: Benoist;751086Do you have a guess? If so, I'd like to hear it. (seriously, it's not sarcasm)
A free book, available at all stores which also sell the starter set, which provides the character generation rules and introduces the Adventurer's League (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/news/adventurersleague).
It's not in the starter set, because it's outside the set and available for free to anyone who wants it, so it can reach an even larger audience than just the starter set customers.
Quote from: Mistwell;751189A free book, available at all stores which also sell the starter set, which provides the character generation rules and introduces the Adventurer's League (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/news/adventurersleague).
In the text of the link: "There will be a D&D Adventurers League Player’s Guide"
It doesn't say what form, or if there is a cost, but there's at least one player-oriented guide coming out as part of the initial push. Since it is designed to engage you in the public play programs, is be surprised if it wasn't free (or a matter of a few dollars) and available at FLGS (and possibly at other retailers).
Sure it's the entry point for organized play but you have the Starter Set and then the Big Three if you want to break away from the party line and world-build, rules-mash, throw together a new monster, etc. etc. in the usual D&D DM spirit and toss the Living FR thing they're running to keep the brand visible.
Quote from: Mistwell;751189A free book, available at all stores which also sell the starter set, which provides the character generation rules and introduces the Adventurer's League (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/news/adventurersleague).
It's not in the starter set, because it's outside the set and available for free to anyone who wants it, so it can reach an even larger audience than just the starter set customers.
Just posted a new thread about this while you were posting. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29679) If that is the mystery link, my instant question would be: why isn't the Adventurer's League PH in the boxed set AS WELL in the first place? If the effort turns around Organized Play, then why not include the PH in the boxed set itself in order to advertise the Organized Play angle in the boxed set itself AND have a complete starting package as well, thus killing two birds with one stone?
Good question. I think we're getting closer, but not quite there yet.
Quote from: Benoist;751199Just posted a new thread about this while you were posting. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29679) If that is the mystery link, my instant question would be: why isn't the Adventurer's League PH in the boxed set AS WELL in the first place? If the effort turns around Organized Play, then why not include the PH in the boxed set itself in order to advertise the Organized Play angle in the boxed set itself AND have a complete starting package as well, thus killing two birds with one stone?
To grab more shelf space? To use the cover of the free book to advertise the game in addition to the cover of the starter set? I dunno, just guessing here.
Quote from: Warthur;750987I love how everyone here is jumping to the conclusion that this is all about some online functionality when neither Mearls nor Pundit have said anything of the sort.
Therein lies the problem.
If there is no chargen in the starter.
And there is no chargen online.
But it is not crippleware.
Then...
What?
Hasbro plans to test their new Ia-Ia ESP system to beam game rules directly into the brains of players!!!
Quote from: Mistwell;751212To grab more shelf space? To use the cover of the free book to advertise the game in addition to the cover of the starter set? I dunno, just guessing here.
I really don't see how you can't have both. It's not an either/or proposition I'm making: it's not either you have the booklet in the box and you can't do those things, or you do those things but somehow can't afford to put the same booklet in the box as well. There's no rationale I can see that justifies crippling the starter set from that standpoint.
Isn't it usual for a beginner's box to come out after the system proper? Didn't the Pathfinder BB come after PF core?
It doesn't seem like the Starter Set is meant to be a beginner's box. Mearls has said it's for DMs. It seems the Set is about getting existing D&D players playing this D&D ASAP. An actual welcome-to-the-hobby "red box" might be (should be) forthcoming, although by any standard that will be confusing, if the Starter Set and BB are on the shelves at the same time.
But knowing Wizards, the Set is probably not sticking around after the gap it stops has been filled with the core. Then we might see a real D&D BB.
Or everything is fucked, and D&D as a living brand is doomed. We've survived just that for this long, after all. Maybe even more gamers will flock to 1st Edition in the long run, oh darn!
Quote from: Bobloblah;751069Uh-hunh. And players chose those, did they? Oh, wait - no, they didn't. They rolled randomly, and picked a class. Or, at least, that was Moldvay and Mentzer
Um... Moldvay Basic MU/Elf spell selection says the DM can roll for the player, OR let the player select them.
Quote from: Benoist;751086Do you have a guess? If so, I'd like to hear it. (seriously, it's not sarcasm)
What if its like the first Next playtest packet? That had no chargen in it. But each class had a "do this and get this when you reach this level" And that had 5 classes. And the Class Races had their race date with the character.
They didnt have names, alignment, etc. But were statted out and fully equipped.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751184Paizo put out a full playable game as a boxed set and they seem to be doing alright.
Currently Paizo is the market leader. You could go head to head with the market leader by doing the same thing but only better. Or you could try something different that exploits a weakness.
What weakness does the Paizo box set has? Like any game in a box you have to open it to find out what the game is like. What strength it has? Well it has the rules freely available but it only on-line and not at the store where the customer is at.
If you offer a sealed box then you have to go the traditional marketing route. But if it turns out if an important part of the rules (character creation) can be printed in a compact affordable format. Then you can freely distribute it to where any customer can pick it up read and then decide to buy the sealed box set. And you can post it on-line as well aka GURPS Lite. You can gain back some of the cost by not having to print as much traditional marketing as the booklet can serve as a marketing tool.
It risky because in the end the Pazio box is a complete game, while the Wizard box needs that booklet. If you don't do the rest of the marketing just right it will be a non-starter boxed set.
Quote from: Benoist;751199Just posted a new thread about this while you were posting. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29679) If that is the mystery link, my instant question would be: why isn't the Adventurer's League PH in the boxed set AS WELL in the first place? If the effort turns around Organized Play, then why not include the PH in the boxed set itself in order to advertise the Organized Play angle in the boxed set itself AND have a complete starting package as well, thus killing two birds with one stone?
To get people to enter, and buy from gaming stores rather than Amazon etc? Quite clever if so.
Quote from: Omega;751225Um... Moldvay Basic MU/Elf spell selection says the DM can roll for the player, OR let the player select them.
I'll take your word for it, as I don't happen to have my Moldvay book sitting in front of me. Do you think that being an option invalidates the point I'm making?
EDIT: it's potentially moot at this point anyway if the speculation about the Adventurers League booklet is correct.
Quote from: trechriron;751175Not sure why this business model is so vilified in our hobby. It's so standard I don't get how anyone would expect a business to thrive otherwise.
A lot of geeks have deeply conflicted attitudes towards the companies they buy things from. I don't know if they honestly expect an RPG company to set up a model where they sell each of their customers one $30 SuperBoxOfAwesome and then move on to selling T-shirts or something. But hey, you can't reason people out of opinions they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
And just because there are a few dozen guys tapping away on keyboards with nicotine-stained fingers while cats writhe around their legs who complain about RPG companies with a profitable business model, that doesn't mean those attitudes are widespread out in the much larger market of gamers. Lots of people actually like buying stuff for their hobby. In fact, they'll stop playing a game once there's nothing more to buy for it.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751178Ah, but in this particular department 4e did it wrong. It was heavily front-loaded. Proper Character creation usually took longer than even 3e's did. Far too long. Too many choices.
As far back as Essentials it was clear that WotC realized they need to make a D&D a lot more accessible - especially character generation and leveling. That's why I don't see them overly worried about Pathfinder - at this point, Paizo and WotC are going after different markets.
Quote from: Benoist;751219I really don't see how you can't have both. It's not an either/or proposition I'm making: it's not either you have the booklet in the box and you can't do those things, or you do those things but somehow can't afford to put the same booklet in the box as well. There's no rationale I can see that justifies crippling the starter set from that standpoint.
You can have both, but one forces you to buy at a game store, where organized play is taking place - they hand it to you with your purchase. Otherwise you have to download the PDF if you buy at Amazon. Makes sense to me, and goes along with the fact that the game stores are getting to sell these things before Amazon is allowed to ship them.
Quote from: Haffrung;751235blah, blah, blah
Are you capable of posting on this site about D&D Next without both insulting those disagreeing with you and creating strawmen of their arguments?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751184Perhaps because some of us remember when this was a hobby for the benefit of hobbyists, not merely a product to benefit a company.
It became about profits the minute Gygax copyrighted the game and started selling it out of the trunk of his car. And if you care about the hobby but not the business, why in fuck are you scrutinizing the marketing and publication plans of the biggest company in the industry?
Now we're talking. A free chargen book is exactly the first free hit of heroin that will get me hooked.
Quote from: Mistwell;751243You can have both, but one forces you to buy at a game store, where organized play is taking place - they hand it to you with your purchase.
I don't want to hand over a product that is incomplete and requires to sign into an organized play program to be complete, so assuming that is the rationale, here, that basically ends up with me not buying and not referencing the boxed set for the newbie gamers I know.
Back to square one.
I do believe that organized play can be beneficial to the hobby, but it should be an enhancement to a whole that is already functional and complete without it, for those that want it, not a requirement in order to get a complete functioning product and experience, in my mind.
Quote from: Haffrung;751246It became about profits the minute Gygax copyrighted the game and started selling it out of the trunk of his car. And if you care about the hobby but not the business, why in fuck are you scrutinizing the marketing and publication plans of the biggest company in the industry?
It is quite possible to both enrich the hobby and make a profit. Larger public companies are forced to do more of that latter at the expense of the former by their vey nature and are thus, not the best fit for the hobby.
Making a living selling hobby related materials isn't wrong. Changing a hobby based on individual imagination and creativity into a strictly consumer based product is rather sad.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751234I'll take your word for it, as I don't happen to have my Moldvay book sitting in front of me. Do you think that being an option invalidates the point I'm making?
EDIT: it's potentially moot at this point anyway if the speculation about the Adventurers League booklet is correct.
You still have your chargen options.
EDIT: And yeah. Looks like the AL could be the secret sauce that makes the boxed set and the rest viable without the other books.
Quote from: Benoist;751258I don't want to hand over a product that is incomplete and requires to sign into an organized play program to be complete...
This is not what has been suggested by Mistwell, or anyone else, as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Benoist;751258I don't want to hand over a product that is incomplete and requires to sign into an organized play program to be complete
Cool. So when I say something even remotely like "sign into an organized play program" you can respond with that.
THEY. HAND. YOU. A. BOOK. WITH. YOUR. PURCHASE.
THE. BOOK. HAS. CHARGEN. RULES. IN. IT.
THAT'S. IT.
Fuck. Why is this so hard to understand? Everyone at the game store gets the book, for free, with the purchase of any D&D-related anything, or perhaps for free even without a purchase as long as they walk their ass into a store and pick it up. You don't "sign in" to anything. It's just a friggen free book. No reason to add anything to that explanation. You buy a starter set, and they had you a free book with chargen rules that ALSO introduces organized play. You don't have to play in organized play, it's just ALSO mentioned in the free book. Your fucking cousins and nephews can play the starter set, with chargen rules, without a computer of any kind, just like you want them to. The fact that the free book came outside the box instead of inside the box IS OF NO RELEVANCE AT ALL to that scenario. You're literally bitching about an inch of space for the initial location of a book.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751262This is not what has been suggested by Mistwell, or anyone else, as far as I can tell.
That's how I read that sentence:
Quote from: Mistwell;751243You can have both, but one forces you to buy at a game store, where organized play is taking place - they hand it to you with your purchase. Otherwise you have to download the PDF if you buy at Amazon. Makes sense to me, and goes along with the fact that the game stores are getting to sell these things before Amazon is allowed to ship them.
So it seems you are objecting to my qualification that you'd be required to sign into the organized play program instead of having to show up at the game store in order to get a copy. I get that - we don't actually know whether signing into the program is required to get a copy. For me the problem remains the same either way: the boxed set is incomplete, and in order to get a complete copy you are required to do something else that doesn't come along with it. So I can't hand over that starter set to other people, nor recommend it as a point of entry to the hobby.
(all this assuming this actually is the silver bullet Mearls and Pundit were talking about, which it might not be)
Quote from: Bobloblah;751262This is not what has been suggested by Mistwell, or anyone else, as far as I can tell.
Yeah I think this is the thickest Benoist has ever been on this board.
It's like he thinks I said "but then you have to have sex with a goat" or something, implied in the sentence "they hand you a book at checkout".
ACTUALLY, it might be the THICKEST I've seen you be in ages right now, Mark. YOU. Not me.
What I'm saying is actually pretty clear. Read.
Quote from: Haffrung;751246It became about profits the minute Gygax copyrighted the game and started selling it out of the trunk of his car. And if you care about the hobby but not the business, why in fuck are you scrutinizing the marketing and publication plans of the biggest company in the industry?
I'm not. They are on my favorite RPG board talking up their new game like it's awesome... ...when maybe, it's not. They seem to be leaving stuff out.
Quote from: Benoist;751265For me the problem remains the same either way: the boxed set is incomplete, and in order to get a complete copy you are required to do something else that doesn't come with along with it.
The "something else" is BUY it. I am pretty sure that's implied here. You always had to buy it. When you buy it, they hand you a free book to go with it. Are you complaining because your hand is not large enough to grasp two items instead of just the one item?
Your complaint makes no sense Benoist. You're literally sounding like a crazy person at the moment. I seriously have no fucking clue what your objection is anymore.
Quote from: Benoist;751268ACTUALLY, it might be the THICKEST I've seen you be in ages right now, Mark. YOU. Not me.
What I'm saying is actually pretty clear. Read.
I've read. You sound nuts right now.
There is nothing else you have to do to get the rules you're talking about. Your objection is totally vacuous at this point.
Quote from: Mistwell;751270The "something else" is BUY it. I am pretty sure that's implied here. You always had to buy it. When you buy it, they hand you a free book to go with it. Are you complaining because your hand is not large enough to grasp two items instead of just the one item?
Your complaint makes no sense Benoist. You're literally sounding like a crazy person at the moment. I seriously have no fucking clue what your objection is anymore.
No, the something else is not "buy it". The something else is "buy it at a specific store where D&D organized play is also taking place."
How can you be so thick right now?
If I sound like a crazy person, you sound like an asshole who's not even trying to understand what I'm saying. How about that, uh?
Quote from: Benoist;751272The something else is "buy it at a specific store where D&D organized play is also taking place."
Who said this is the case?
Is Amazon going to ship a copy with every box? If I walk into a FLGS and say "I need ten copies of the free book to go with the ten Starter Sets I didn't buy from you guys." do they have to hand them to me?
It's not a dealbreaker for me, but I can't understand why you wouldn't put that in the box. It's a no-brainer. The only possible reason I can think of is that it wasn't ready when the boxes got packed.
Quote from: Benoist;751272No, the something else is not "buy it". The something else is "buy it at a specific store where D&D organized play is also taking place."
Ah, so your reply required CHANGING WHAT I WROTE? Yeah that makes sense. I was supposed to read your mind and see you were strawmanning me?
I didn't say you can only get it where an organized play event is taking place.
I said you can get it WHEREVER THEY SELL THE STARTER SET! I even emphasized that by talking about shelf space.
Make sense now? If you buy the starter (anywhere) you get the free book with it. It will either be right next to it, or at the register when you buy it.
Does that scenario fix this for you?
Anyway. That's it for me I guess. The wagons are circling by now, I've already been called insane, the dismissals of not being the demographic for the product and so on have been thrown around hours ago, it's all good. I get the message, I've seen this movie unfold before with 4e.
Have fun cheerleading, guys.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751273Who said this is the case?
Nobody. Apparently it was implied, right next to where I implied he needed to have sex with a goat to get the free book.
Quote from: Benoist;751276Anyway. That's it for me I guess. The wagons are circling by now, I've already been called insane, the dismissals of not being the demographic for the product and so on have been thrown around hours ago, it's all good. I get the message, I've seen this movie unfold before with 4e.
Have fun cheerleading, guys.
You were being a dick Benoist. When you calm down, I hope you will apologize. Nobody mentioned checking in to organized play, or only buying it where they have organized play events. You inferred those things and then got all insistent that we'd said them when we hadn't. It was not a good day for communication.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751274Is Amazon going to ship a copy with every box? If I walk into a FLGS and say "I need ten copies of the free book to go with the ten Starter Sets I didn't buy from you guys." do they have to hand them to me?
It's not a dealbreaker for me, but I can't understand why you wouldn't put that in the box. It's a no-brainer. The only possible reason I can think of is that it wasn't ready when the boxes got packed.
I'm guessing that it is free in stores, but available to download as a PDF online if you buy from the internet/non-gaming store. I'm going to guess that there will also be an app (not free) to build characters and something online at the D&D site.
Quote from: Mistwell;751278You were being a dick Benoist. When you calm down, I hope you will apologize.
Don't count on it. You've just been a colossal asshole to me. I won't apologize for your behavior. Good day.
Quote from: Mistwell;751275I said you can get it WHEREVER THEY SELL THE STARTER SET! I even emphasized that by talking about shelf space.
Make sense now? If you buy the starter (anywhere) you get the free book with it. It will either be right next to it, or at the register when you buy it.
When was this announced?
How can they guarantee the booklet won't end up in a box in the back of the basement storeroom where nobody can find it?
And why wouldn't they just fucking put the damned thing in the Starter Set box?
Quote from: Benoist;751281Don't count on it. You've just been a colossal asshole to me. I won't apologize for your behavior. Good day.
Yeah because I am the one that put words in your mouth, insisted you said them, and then got all irate about those words that nobody but you had said.
Oh wait...no I'm not, that was you.
Quote from: Benoist;751276Anyway. That's it for me I guess. The wagons are circling by now, I've already been called insane, the dismissals of not being the demographic for the product and so on have been thrown around hours ago, it's all good. I get the message, I've seen this movie unfold before with 4e.
Have fun cheerleading, guys.
What are you talking about? Your last few replies have inferred something that wasn't said...I'm baffled. It plays into Haffrung's incessant whinging about "the grognardy Grognards" on this site. Where does it say you will only get the book by signing up for organised play? The booklet is apparently free, which would imply you don't even have to buy anything. As for Amazon, who's to say they won't ship one with the Starter Set? Moreover, worrying about being unable to get one at your FLGS seems more than a little ridiculous; why
wouldn't they have it if they sell D&D products?
So I wonder how this would work at stores that don't participate in organized play like Wal-Mart or Target or Toys-R-Us or whatever? Isn't the core target audience a lot more likely to buy an intro set in a place like that than in a specialty game store?
Also, I understand the need to support FLGSs, but I suspect that there are huge numbers of players, active, casual and potential, who don't live anywhere near one.
I must agree with Mistwell that, for purposes of a game store purchase, it's completely academic whether such a supplement was inside or outside the box. But wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier to just put it in the box for online purchases and all of these other potential outlets?
And, I have a hard time seeing how a small packet or brochure, part of which is dedicated to advertising, can serve as the central "bridge" between the starter set and the Big 3.
Regardless, I think I'll just wait for Mearls to tweet or write something more definitive, or for RPG Pundit's head to explode, whichever comes first.
Quote from: Dodger;751282When was this announced?
How can they guarantee the booklet won't end up in a box in the back of the basement storeroom where nobody can find it?
And why wouldn't they just fucking put the damned thing in the box?
It's not announced. We don't know this is what is going to happen. Benoist asked if I could come up with a scenario that solved the problem of the chargen rules not being in the starter set, but also made them available, but not using a computer. I posited the theory that the just-announced organized play event mentions (what we now know to be) a free player's guide, and that it might contain character generation rules. So I theorized that that book will be included for free wherever they sell the Starter Set.
Benoist then claimed I'd said you need to sign in to an organized play system to get the free book (I did not say that).
Benoist then claimed I'd said you need to get the book only at a location that sponsors organized play (I did not say that).
Benoist then took his ball and went home, complaining that we were picking on him and should have let him get away with strawmanning people.
Quote from: Benoist;751272No, the something else is not "buy it". The something else is "buy it at a specific store where D&D organized play is also taking place."
How can you be so thick right now?
If I sound like a crazy person, you sound like an asshole who's not even trying to understand what I'm saying. How about that, uh?
Well it looks like Adventurer League part is free. But I do not see any mention of how you are supposed to get it?
I assume there will be an online version for players to get right into and a printed version that is handed out at stores, or you can mail in for.
Quote from: Saplatt;751287So I wonder how this would work at stores that don't participate in organized play like Wal-Mart or Target or Toys-R-Us or whatever? Isn't the core target audience a lot more likely to buy an intro set in a place like that than in a specialty game store?
They have other give-aways at those stores in those sections already. They'd just add a display with the free book, near the D&D books.
My kid has a similar thing for squinkies (don't ask), which lists all the squinkies available in in the current set that is for sale, so you know what you can collect. You pick up that booklet for free from the display at Wal-Mart, Target, and Toys R Us. Granted, some little bastard has usually swiped everything from the display at Wal-Mart, but they seem to always be there at Toys R Us and Target.
Of course, I still have no idea that this is what will happen - just one way they could do it.
Quote from: Saplatt;751287So I wonder how this would work at stores that don't participate in organized play like Wal-Mart or Target or Toys-R-Us or whatever? Isn't the core target audience a lot more likely to buy an intro set in a place like that than in a specialty game store?
Also, I understand the need to support FLGSs, but I suspect that there are huge numbers of players, active, casual and potential, who don't live anywhere near one.
Good points.
Quote from: Saplatt;751287But wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier to just put it in the box for online purchases and all of these other potential outlets?
Yup. Very interesting to see how this shakes out. We still don't even know
if character generation is included in the Adventurers League booklet.
@Mistwell: Fair enough. I've just got a gut feeling that we have another unseen fish out there.
Quote from: Saplatt;751287But wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier to just put it in the box for online purchases and all of these other potential outlets?
If this is the missing link, I ask the same question. Assuming its not some form of planned obsolescence, why not just put a copy in the box set and be done with it?
It also avoids the inevitable situation in a few years time when someone buys the box from somewhere which doesn't hold onto the free book. Stores tend to treat freebie material much less responsibly than saleable products.
Quote from: Mistwell;751289It's not announced. We don't know this is what is going to happen.
So this is all just pulled out of your ass.
QuoteSo I theorized that that book will be included for free wherever they sell the Starter Set.
If they were going to do that, why wouldn't they simply include the book in the Starter Set?
Hmm, a free booklet doesn't sound right. As has been pointed out, why not just put it in the box, if you're going to get it online via pdf, we know that's not the "big thing" because Pundit's already said it's not what he was talking about. It's something else.
We have to, all pun intended, think outside the box on this one. :D
...or maybe WotC got Hasbro to pony up on this one and they're shipping a free booklet to every place Hasbro toys are sold. Or they're including a free chargen program on Steam. That would certainly be a gamechanger. If you're going to bring in new gamers, you have to go where the RPG gamers aren't. So an FLGS might not be the best place. A free download on Xbox or PlayStation though...
...although Pundit didn't say accessible to new gamers, he said accessible to gamers other then the hardcore crowd. :hmm:
Mearls has said the Starter Set is for GM's, which means there has to be something else for the players, something not yet announced, something other then the 3 Main Books and the Starter. Something for players that just isn't on the table yet (or it's the Adventure League Guide and we don't know it).
Quote from: Benoist;751265That's how I read that sentence:
So it seems you are objecting to my qualification that you'd be required to sign into the organized play program instead of having to show up at the game store in order to get a copy. I get that - we don't actually know whether signing into the program is required to get a copy. For me the problem remains the same either way: the boxed set is incomplete, and in order to get a complete copy you are required to do something else that doesn't come along with it. So I can't hand over that starter set to other people, nor recommend it as a point of entry to the hobby.
(all this assuming this actually is the silver bullet Mearls and Pundit were talking about, which it might not be)
I have to say without further information I agree with Mistwell's interpretation. I makes total sense the DM buys a starter box note it isn't a beginner's box by what Mearls has even said there will be serious campaign level things in the box. The box is there to START playing NOW. They then give a book for chargen to tempt you to either go to the FLGS to buy the box or get into their public play program. If you want to do the Amazon thing you go online to get the book as a PDF win for Amazon, the FLGS, and WotC.
It may even be possible they just give you the book without buying a thing or maybe some dice or something or something WotC made irrespective of the starter box.
Quote from: Dodger;751299So this is all just pulled out of your ass.
If they were going to do that, why wouldn't they simply include the book in the Starter Set?
To get you to go to the FLGS to buy the Starter Box
there and possibly involved in their public play system.
No matter what happens, all this mystery I'm sure is kicking them right to the top of Morris's aggregator.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751274Is Amazon going to ship a copy with every box? If I walk into a FLGS and say "I need ten copies of the free book to go with the ten Starter Sets I didn't buy from you guys." do they have to hand them to me?
It's not a dealbreaker for me, but I can't understand why you wouldn't put that in the box. It's a no-brainer. The only possible reason I can think of is that it wasn't ready when the boxes got packed.
No. That is where you go online to get the PDF. The book is literally the carrot for you to buy it at their sanctioned stores with the possibility of signing up for their public play program.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751308No matter what happens, all this mystery I'm sure is kicking them right to the top of Morris's aggregator.
Well at least that's something.;)
Quote from: Marleycat;751306...and possibly involved in their public play system.
Or they could just make the Public Play System good, and rely on that to sell it. This form of buying restriction to get customers to buy in a specific way was as annoying in 3e and 4e as it is now.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;751118Or, maybe, you could y'know put down the stupid for a minute and recognize that this is a thing some of us would actually like to see succeed and realize we think that not putting the fucking character generation in the set so that someone who takes it home has a complete game and they don't have to fuck around with a maybe-available? website? and/or get a PDF to print out?
But why would they expect something called a
Starter Set to have the complete game?
And someone who really is new isn't going view a lack of character creation as a problem, because they don't have any reason to think it needs to be there in the first place.
Quote from: Skywalker;751311Or they could just make the Public Play System good, and rely on that to sell it. This form of buying restriction to get customers to buy in a specific way was as annoying in 3e and 4e as it is now.
I am just spitballin' here. My opinion that the book is a hook to get you to go to a physical store rather then a virtual storefront. Nothing else makes sense to me. I have no clue if you will have to buy the box to get the free or if you get it free with any purchase or just free for showing up. Because the other half is that they have a chance to sell you on their new AL thing just because you are there.
Quote from: Dodger;751299So this is all just pulled out of your ass.
If they were going to do that, why wouldn't they simply include the book in the Starter Set?
For a couple reasons I can think of:
1) They want to reach a wider audience than just the starter set, and it would duplicate books if they included it in the set;
2) They want to drive people to retail stores, as you'd have to download the PDF if you buy from Amazon or Barns and Noble online.
Quote from: Marleycat;751313My opinion that the book is a hook to get you to go to a physical store rather then a virtual storefront. Nothing else makes sense to me.
I expect that its a combination of these kind of motivations.
The annoying thing with this is that not all of us have a physical store option, so its effectively at the detriment to a chunk of customers.
Quote from: Mistwell;751315and it would duplicate books if they included it in the set
The cost of adding a copy of the free book into a box set has to be the weakest (and most circular) argument for going with a free book outside of a box set I have seen.
Quote from: Skywalker;751316I expect that its a combination of these kind of motivations.
The annoying thing with this is that not all of us have a physical store option, so its effectively at the detriment to a chunk of customers.
The cost of adding a copy of the free book into a box set has to be the weakest (and most circular) argument for providing a free book I have seen.
I don't disagree. I would think there will be an online option though. Or it maybe possible the physical book could be in the box stores like Walmart/Target/ToysR us?
Quote from: Marleycat;751317I don't disagree. I would think there will be an online option though. Or it maybe possible the physical book could be in the box stores like Walmart/Target/ToysR us?
FWIW I live in an area where there is no physical gaming stores and where chain stores will not stock the Starter Set. This leaves only internet stores like Amazon. If the free book (if its the missing link) is unable to obtained from these internet stores, it really kinda of sucks.
Quote from: RPGPundit;750967Well, all the current subject aside, yes. You are.
For me, half my gaming materials are now on PDF, not to mention most of my campaign notes are on .txt files (which in and of itself probably makes me old fashioned!), and for DCC I have come to love the amazing Crawler app (thus far, the only gaming-related app I use).
Cool. I'll wear it with pride then.
I'm well aware of the Crawler and it is kind of cool. But that doesn't make phones any more awesome at a table for DCC.
But point blank, I have kids that we hope one day share their mother's and mine enjoyment of RPGs. Yes my hope was that D&D "Next" would have a self contained, streamlined RPG without the use of a tablet/computer/ phone. A self contained starter box would have been perfect.
I'll get more "fogey" too... I was looking at Next because I find DCC a bit too mature for younger audiences. Other wise I have no use for Next.
But really I hope you are right... about how easy and great this going to be.
Quote from: Skywalker;751320FWIW I live in an area where there is no physical gaming stores and where chain stores will not stock the Starter Set. This leaves only internet stores like Amazon. If the free book (if its the missing link) is unable to obtained from these internet stores, it really kinda of sucks.
That would. I still think we're missing something big. From how Pundit put it Organized Play isn't unique and I think they have something different up their sleeves that hasn't been introduced yet.
Any extra step, no matter how wonderful it may seem, is one step too many.
Quote from: Skywalker;751320FWIW I live in an area where there is no physical gaming stores and where chain stores will not stock the Starter Set. This leaves only internet stores like Amazon. If the free book (if its the missing link) is unable to obtained from these internet stores, it really kinda of sucks.
How do you think that would go over with Amazon?
"Yeah, I really don't want to buy anything. All I want is the free Dungeons & Dragons book."
"Say what??" ::click::
:D
Quote from: Marleycat;751306To get you to go to the FLGS to buy the Starter Box there and possibly involved in their public play system.
Quote from: Mistwell;751315For a couple reasons I can think of:
1) They want to reach a wider audience than just the starter set, and it would duplicate books if they included it in the set;
2) They want to drive people to retail stores, as you'd have to download the PDF if you buy from Amazon or Barns and Noble online.
(http://media.tumblr.com/5a158603e373b9d4928cc6e66ec33057/tumblr_inline_mi32ujgbZM1qz4rgp.gif)
Quote from: Dodger;751326(http://media.tumblr.com/5a158603e373b9d4928cc6e66ec33057/tumblr_inline_mi32ujgbZM1qz4rgp.gif)
Not currently uninfortunately.:D
Someone's spiked your drink, then. With acid.
That's the only way to explain a theory which relies on Wizards deliberately crippling the D&D Starter Set in order to discourage customers from buying through the dominant sales channel (i.e. online).
Quote from: Dodger;751336Someone's spiked your drink, then. With acid.
That's the only way to explain a theory which relies on Wizards deliberately crippling the D&D Starter Set in order to discourage customers from buying through the dominant sales channel (i.e. online).
What do I know I am just theorizing at this point. I am fine if I have to wait for the actual books given I will likely only get PHB and maybe the DMG. I never DM DnD so the Starter Box holds no interest for me. Let the DM give me some pregen and I am ready to roll.
Why would they want to drive potential players into brick n mortar stores? There are only a few left around here and the action there is all CCGs and 40K... those store owners aren't looking to have their tables taken up for hours on end by a game that doesn't push impulse buys that can be put to immediate use.
Or maybe WOTC has some new angle on that...
Quote from: S'mon;750935IMO "No printed chargen, but you can make one on your phone" is epic marketing fail. It might work for some demographics; it's not going to work for the parents & children 'family game' demographic, which I would have thought was an important target market these days.
Honestly, what will work for a parents & children family game demographic, if that's really the cause you're raising your lance for, would be "here's a bunch of totally-ready characters, everyone pick the one you want!".
Quote from: Endless Flight;751324Any extra step, no matter how wonderful it may seem, is one step too many.
Repeated, because it needs to be.
And to further add to this faux pas, all Mearls had to do is
stay quiet! Don't use the Twitter, just let mystery build. Pre-orders were going great because people WANT TO ASSUME THE BEST. When things are going swimmingly, don't throw flaming oil atop, the churn and attention just is not worth it.
Think about the real audience for a new edition of D&D; it isn't a family of newbs who stumbled across the game at a book store or something. It is some member of the community of gamers that has existed for many years, or some friend of theirs who is introducing them to the hobby. I can't imagine anyone in this market being happy to buy a product that won't explain to you how to create even a simple, basic, starting character.
Quote from: Omega;750954Short of OD&D and the BXetc series None of D&D games have needed everyone to buy all the books. The DM needed the DMG and MM, the players needed the PHB.
So yeah. That could be read as trick wording or empty promise if one isnt aware that this is how D&D has been for a good while now.
That's is explicitly NOT what is meant here. That much I can say.
I have just re-read Pundit's blog post. this stuck out:
QuoteEverything will be more clear when certain information is made public in a while. Information, I might add, that I as an advocate of the D&D game being made as accessible as possible to regular and casual gamers rather than just marketing to the hardcore fans am very excited about.
Emphasis mine.
Now, this has probably been covered in the last 12 or 13 pages or so but my tuppence is as follows:
Originally 5E was being touted as a go-to modular D&D that could be used to emulate play styles of the major previous revisions.
This was then "forgotten about" according to some as play tests were released and mechanics were tested in the wild.
I believe that WoTC is releasing the core D&D 5E mechanic free online and available in participating FLGSs to potential consumers to engage with. If they wish, they can then "buy in" to
D&D THE RPG with the starter set.
Alternatively, they can then use what they know from this freebie to make characters and understand how to play in something like D&D THE COMPUTER GAME.
Or, the consumer can use what they learnt from the freebie core mechanic PDF FLGS print out and go and "buy in" to D&D THE BOARD GAME.
[INSERT D&D: THE XYZ] here.
I would bet my place in OGs TBP/RPGSite meat sandwich (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=751365&postcount=335) on it.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;751403I have just re-read Pundit's blog post. this stuck out:
Emphasis mine.
Now, this has probably been covered in the last 12 or 13 pages or so but my tuppence is as follows:
Originally 5E was being touted as a go-to modular D&D that could be used to emulate play styles of the major previous revisions.
This was then "forgotten about" according to some as play tests were released and mechanics were tested in the wild.
I believe that WoTC is releasing the core D&D 5E mechanic free online and available in participating FLGSs to potential consumers to engage with. If they wish, they can then "buy in" to D&D THE RPG with the starter set.
Alternatively, they can then use what they know from this freebie to make characters and understand how to play in something like D&D THE COMPUTER GAME.
Or, the consumer can use what they learnt from the freebie core mechanic PDF FLGS print out and go and "buy in" to D&D THE BOARD GAME.
[INSERT D&D: THE XYZ] here.
I would bet my place in OGs TBP/RPGSite meat sandwich (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=751365&postcount=335) on it.
I.don't see how they could roll out so many platforms simultaneously but it's intriguing nonetheless.
Quote from: Dodger;751336Someone's spiked your drink, then. With acid.
That's the only way to explain a theory which relies on Wizards deliberately crippling the D&D Starter Set in order to discourage customers from buying through the dominant sales channel (i.e. online).
We already know they are intentionally delivering to game stores 2 weeks earlier than Amazon, for that very reason.
Quote from: Marleycat;751410I.don't see how they could roll out so many platforms simultaneously but it's intriguing nonetheless.
I wouldn't say these things are all hitting the shelves in the same financial quarter. But it covers a lot of the areas, makes it accessible, unifies and at the same time allows for difference in gaming approach. Want a tactical combat? apply the boardgame rules. Want to run through an MMO, dive into D&D Online.
I wouldn't want to say that the characters or stories from each "area" end up as being compatible, but the underlying maths, and structure would be evident therefore smoothing transitions between gaming environments for the consumer.
It'd be a behemoth sized coup if something like that happened.
Call me old-fashioned, but I dislike having to refer to anything that isn't in the print product. So if there are no physical char-gen rules in the starter set then I'm skipping that. I'll pick up the PHB, MM, and DMG though. I just hope they don't go the PHB2/3/4/N and DMG2/3/4/N route (though MM2/3/4/N is great).
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;751321Cool. I'll wear it with pride then.
I'm well aware of the Crawler and it is kind of cool. But that doesn't make phones any more awesome at a table for DCC.
But point blank, I have kids that we hope one day share their mother's and mine enjoyment of RPGs. Yes my hope was that D&D "Next" would have a self contained, streamlined RPG without the use of a tablet/computer/ phone. A self contained starter box would have been perfect.
I'll get more "fogey" too... I was looking at Next because I find DCC a bit too mature for younger audiences. Other wise I have no use for Next.
But really I hope you are right... about how easy and great this going to be.
I think there's a good chance you will find this a good product for your kids.
RPGPundit
I was dissatisfied with most products for my kids. Not because they're stupid and the products are hard, but rather because I just wanted to make an RPG for them in particular.
So I did.
It took me about two months to pull all the rules together, find suitable public domain art, write it up, format it, and fix the typos. 36 page player's guide with chargen and 64 page referee's guide with monsters, tables, a whole year of weather reports, 180 monsters, random treasure tables, the whole yadda yadda. Also, my henchmen work way better than D&D's ever did.
Just finishing up the typos of the referee's guide now, within that same 2-month window.
The point is: Making RPGs based on known quantities is not hard. An idiot like me can do it in his spare time. Professional layout and marketing I presume is harder.
At least I presume it is because they're having such trouble with it.
Quote from: BigWeather;751429I just hope they don't go the PHB2/3/4/N and DMG2/3/4/N route (though MM2/3/4/N is great).
Agreed on this one. I like 1 PHB, 1 DMG. And as many quality MM as they can print. I think that is one of the few things that D&D (and now Pathfinder) has had over a lot of other RPGs on the market. tons and tons and tons of ready made things to face.
Quote from: Scott Anderson;751438I was dissatisfied with most products for my kids. Not because they're stupid and the products are hard, but rather because I just wanted to make an RPG for them in particular.
So I did.
...
The point is: Making RPGs based on known quantities is not hard. An idiot like me can do it in his spare time. Professional layout and marketing I presume is harder.
At least I presume it is because they're having such trouble with it.
Umm, your target audience is CONSIDERABLY smaller. You have nothing riding on the outcome (financially). You don't carry the torch for a large widely-recognized brand. Professional layout and marketing IS harder than the 4 month effort you put into polishing your home brew for your kids. Also, making a new edition of D&D is probably harder than say polishing up an existing edition. I don't think they devs went in with the safe notion of "it's basically done, we just need to up the edition number and re-org this mess...".
I give you major kudos for the effort (as in you sir are an
awesome dad!), but I don't think it's very genuine to compare your labor of love to what WOTC needs/wants to do with D&D.
Quote from: Benoist;751219I really don't see how you can't have both. It's not an either/or proposition I'm making: it's not either you have the booklet in the box and you can't do those things, or you do those things but somehow can't afford to put the same booklet in the box as well. There's no rationale I can see that justifies crippling the starter set from that standpoint.
Quoting cause I tried to say this at ENWorld without this eloquence.
Quote from: Mistwell;751264THEY. HAND. YOU. A. BOOK. WITH. YOUR. PURCHASE.
THE. BOOK. HAS. CHARGEN. RULES. IN. IT.
THAT'S. IT.
Then why not do what customers seem to be clamoring for and put it in the box.
IT. COULD. JUST. SIMPLY. BE. IN. THE. BOX. AFTER. ALL. EVERYTHING. ELSE. IS.
Quote from: Mistwell;751271I've read. You sound nuts right now.
There is nothing else you have to do to get the rules you're talking about. Your objection is totally vacuous at this point.
I, uh, have to object here. You are the one that sounds crazy. You're even desperately posting on several different sites hocking your wierd scheme to make it all sound like it's going to be OK. It might not be OK. In fact it really is sounding like it isn't going to be OK.
I'm not saying I can read your mind, but the above is what it looks like to me.
Quote from: Simlasa;751342Why would they want to drive potential players into brick n mortar stores? There are only a few left around here and the action there is all CCGs and 40K... those store owners aren't looking to have their tables taken up for hours on end by a game that doesn't push impulse buys that can be put to immediate use.
Or maybe WOTC has some new angle on that...
More importantly.
Why would they now be pushing players to FLGS when they went out of their way to ape Games Workshop's ploy of deliberately killing off FLGS wherever they had their own shop up? There is STILL bad blood over that stunt all these years later.
Well they could be planning to glue on another CCG experiment like 4e D&D Gamma World? Or maybee its all just a big ploy to get players in the FLGS where their MTG stuff is where the real sales will be...
Probably not. But WOTC, they'z not the most smartest of companies sometimes ya knowz?
Honestly this sort of move by WOTC is a step in the right direction if it does not have some retarded ulterior motive hidden in there somewhere. It gives some incentive to get out to the FLGS or conventions more one way or another. And to non-FLGS/Con goers its still making the game more accessible.
Wether this plays out as well as we would like to hope remains to be seen.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751364That's is explicitly NOT what is meant here. That much I can say.
This we are gathering slowly. Thanks.
Yes, making a "real" RPG is HARD. But they have lots of money and lots of professionals doing it. Actually, I have no idea whether it's hard or not. The pros are making it look hard though.
And the marketing is still kind of a mess.
Honestly, Pundit says it's good, so I'm not sweating it. I will probably ask Rob over at Rivendell if it's any good, even though he is a Pathfinder kind of a guy and go by his opinion.
And a little personal thought that came up during the recent info.
What if the Adventurer League rules are packed in the box like the other inserts and flyers boxed sets sometimes come with? It is not a part of the game and thusly the game doesnt come with chargen. But see that free AL booklet in there? That adds more stuff.
Probably not. But it would be a move that makes the "no chargen" part true while still having it in there AND advertising Next, and I'll keep calling it Next because its more hassle to type out than 5e, but sounds better. nya!
Quote from: Mistwell;751425We already know they are intentionally delivering to game stores 2 weeks earlier than Amazon, for that very reason.
As any
sane publisher would do.
Generally, a b&m sale is more money than a sale via Amazon.
Also, regarding the b&m question: If 5e really is depending on an Organized Play format WotC needs venues for that.
A thought about why the chargen booklet isn't in the box: maybe the team is working around some set of corporate bureaucracy edicts as best they can? I've seen that sort of thing happen in other contexts.
Maybe HQ has mandated that the box set must come in below a certain manufacturing cost and sales price because of their market and likely profit margin research. It's then up to the team to decide what is most essential in a starter, and the market research says youngsters and noobs don't mind a World of Warcraft / Diablo approach of "make 1 to 3 choices and start playing NOW!" as an intro.
Maybe the cost of making and distributing the physical booklet is being taken out of the marketing budget as a clever ploy to work around a corporate mandate.
Maybe the booklet will also end up being a free online PDF rather than a piece of web-dependent software, something that can be printed out easily by anyone in large quantities. Only the most die-hard purist could object to that if it enables a cheaper starter box and encourages beginner GMs to distribute the rules to more potential customers, right?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751483A thought about why the chargen booklet isn't in the box: maybe the team is working around some set of corporate bureaucracy edicts as best they can? I've seen that sort of thing happen in other contexts.
Maybe HQ has mandated that the box set must come in below a certain manufacturing cost and sales price because of their market and likely profit margin research. It's then up to the team to decide what is most essential in a starter, and the market research says youngsters and noobs don't mind a World of Warcraft / Diablo approach of "make 1 to 3 choices and start playing NOW!" as an intro.
Maybe the cost of making and distributing the physical booklet is being taken out of the marketing budget as a clever ploy to work around a corporate mandate.
Maybe the booklet will also end up being a free online PDF rather than a piece of web-dependent software, something that can be printed out easily by anyone in large quantities. Only the most die-hard purist could object to that if it enables a cheaper starter box and encourages beginner GMs to distribute the rules to more potential customers, right?
1: WOTC suffers this alot more than people suspect.
2: 4e D&D Gamma World was on a very tight budgeting leash set by Hasbro. Would not surprise me if the Basic boxed set was too in some manner. Im guessing it will be either low art, or all retread art. Will be surprised if its BW art.
3: Unlikely if theres a physical version and un-needed if its electronic only. More likely it is simply a marketing idea or mandate to tie into the Adventurer League.
4: Will be very interesting to see what direction they take. Depends on how tight a leash Hasbro has WOTC on for this one. I am still hopeful that the AL booklet is packed with the starter as an insert extra.
Current info, what little there is yet, has me a-lot more hopefull that the starter will not be a botch.
What happens if we all go out and buy the Starter Set (I want to keep calling it the Red Box) and there are pregens to take newbie up and away and through campaigns and toward the new PHB.
Meanwhile there is also a small sheet of paper with guidance and advice for using characters with the starter set that have been created with Mentzer, 1E AD&D, 2E AD&D and 3.X?*
You know, the premium reprints and digital offerings that have been flying out of WoTC recently. How would you feel?
*Oh, and 4E. How could I forget.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;751492What happens if we all go out and buy the Starter Set (I want to keep calling it the Red Box) and there are pregens to take newbie up and away and through campaigns and toward the new PHB.
Meanwhile there is also a small sheet of paper with guidance and advice for using characters with the starter set that have been created with Mentzer, 1E AD&D, 2E AD&D and 3.X?*
You know, the premium reprints and digital offerings that have been flying out of WoTC recently. How would you feel?
*Oh, and 4E. How could I forget.
I'd be really confused and wondering why they were giving me conversion notes instead of character generation rules for the edition that I was actually buying.
Quote from: Scott Anderson;751460Yes, making a "real" RPG is HARD. But they have lots of money and lots of professionals doing it. Actually, I have no idea whether it's hard or not. The pros are making it look hard though.
Making an RPG to please yourself and three other people is not hard.
Making an RPG to please 1,000 who share your tastes is harder, but still within the capability of many hobbyists. The biggest difficulty is probably getting your hands on some decent artwork and laying the thing out well enough that it doesn't look like garbage.
Making an RPG to please 5,000 people (about the size of the more successful mid-market RPG these days) is considerably harder. It requires a degree of professionalism, flexibility, and acumen most hobbyists lack. You need to be broadly popular and accessible enough not to lose your shirt in the (relatively) big production values and print runs.
Making and RPG to please 100s of thousands of people, many of them lapsed players who played a similar game 25 years ago, and attracting tens of thousands of players new to the game and hobby - that's an entirely different kettle of fish. It's probably impossible for WotC at this point to make any decision of A or B that won't piss off thousands of advocates/opponents of A or B (some of whom will erupt on RPG forums with volcanic nerdfury, dominating online discussion). They need to make a game that will appeal to a remarkably diverse audience: people who have kept up with every edition for 35 years, people who dropped out 25 years ago but could be enticed back into the fold, people who started with 3E, people who started with 4E, people who like a simpler game, people who like complexity, people who don't really know what they want, and most difficult of all people who have never played an RPG in their lives. And they need to not only make a system that will be as broadly appealing as possible, but publish it with the best production values in the industry, and in the format that balances the interests of that wildly various audience.
Sure, that seems like an accurate summary. Where's the problem?
;)
Quote from: Haffrung;751553Making an RPG to please yourself and three other people is not hard.
Making an RPG to please 1,000 who share your tastes is harder, but still within the capability of many hobbyists. The biggest difficulty is probably getting your hands on some decent artwork and laying the thing out well enough that it doesn't look like garbage.
Writing an RPG that is NOT just another derivative of some existing system, D&D for example is bitchingly hard unless your brain really clicks to that sort of stuff. Balancing it all is probably the big hurdle. You have everything lined up how you want. THEN playtesters do things with it you never foresaw and you realize that you now have to go back and re-balance things.
Some designers have mentioned that the mechanics is easy. Its the background and data on things that they stall at. Why some get someone else to handle that part.
Then comes editing, art, etc. And art is costly unless you are also the artist.
Quote from: matthulhu;751223It doesn't seem like the Starter Set is meant to be a beginner's box. Mearls has said it's for DMs. It seems the Set is about getting existing D&D players playing this D&D ASAP. An actual welcome-to-the-hobby "red box" might be (should be) forthcoming, although by any standard that will be confusing, if the Starter Set and BB are on the shelves at the same time.
Yeah, for now I'll assume that Pundit is right and that Wizards has some magical shit in the starter set that will be perfect for bringing in players.
Otherwise their first product is useful only by DMs and not players, and they're targeting maybe 20% of their market instead of 100%. Which would be insane.
Doesn't precisely address the marketing issue here, but a post at Enworld today says that, at the very least, WotC will have some free character generation rules on its website. About 15% of the PHB!
Same post also has pics of the back of the books.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355344-BoardGameGeek-at-a-5e-Seminar&prefixid=dndnext
"(!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets. [EDIT: @thalmin mentioned the rules will be for BASIC characters (emphasis from the WotC rep)]"
Not what I was hoping for - still chargen rules in the Player's Guide, and a free app.
That's what the big noise was about?
I'm slightly underwhelmed.
Quote from: Mistwell;751425We already know they are intentionally delivering to game stores 2 weeks earlier than Amazon, for that very reason.
It's 11 days and only to stores in the Wizards Play Network.
Quote from: Saplatt;751573Doesn't precisely address the marketing issue here, but a post at Enworld today says that, at the very least, WotC will have some free character generation rules on its website. About 15% of the PHB!
Same post also has pics of the back of the books.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355344-BoardGameGeek-at-a-5e-Seminar&prefixid=dndnext
And now we can see exactly what's going in on the Starter set. Pretty good for $20, IMO. Especially since players will have a way to generate their own PCs
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751570Otherwise their first product is useful only by DMs and not players, and they're targeting maybe 20% of their market instead of 100%. Which would be insane.
Releasing book after book of content geared at players - and the rules-heavy char op mode of play it encouraged - is what made me walk away from D&D in the 3E era. I find it encouraging that 5E will be a game that's simple enough where players don't need to buy books, and where most of the published content will be aimed at DMs.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;751583And now we can see exactly what's going in on the Starter set. Pretty good for $20, IMO. Especially since players will have a way to generate their own PCs
Now I'm really hoping that the free 15% will be in an easy-to-print format. If that's the case it should lay all reasonable complaints to rest.
Quote from: Back of the Starter Set BoxGame Components
- 64-page adventure book with everything the Dungeon Master needs to get started
- 32-page rulebook for playing character levels 1-5
- 5 pregenerated characters, each with a character sheet and supporting reference material
- 6 game dice
Eh. Seems fine to me, but I don't see anything special about it.
I wouldn't expect character creation to be in the box anyway.
Quote from: Mistwell;751579"(!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets. [EDIT: @thalmin mentioned the rules will be for BASIC characters (emphasis from the WotC rep)]"
Not what I was hoping for - still chargen rules in the Player's Guide, and a free app.
Pundit, was this the thing you were expecting that'd make us feel more excited about the Starter Set?
Quote(!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets.
Well, then.
I'm sure there will still be complaints that the chargen rules aren't physically in the box itself. But it's a non-issue for me.
I'm probably the least computer-savvy person in my entire circle and I figure that if I can find it, just about anyone can.
Quote from: Haffrung;751584I find it encouraging that 5E will be a game that's simple enough where players don't need to buy books, and where most of the published content will be aimed at DMs.
Players rarely "need" to buy books. :) However, WotC does "need" to keep cranking out player books in order to keep the revenue stream going. It's simple math - you can sell to 1 DM or 5 players.
Even the back of the new PHB hints at what's coming (bold emphasis mine):
"Use this book to create exciting characters from among the most iconic D&D races and classes."That implies (or at least I infer) that the 'lesser iconic' races and classes will be coming in another book. That's fine - WotC needs to make money - but I'll be very surprised if most of their future content targets DMs.
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592That implies (or at least I infer) that the 'lesser iconic' races and classes will be coming in another book. That's fine - WotC needs to make money - but I'll be very surprised if most of their future content targets DMs.
They have already announced that Warforged will be in the DMG. I pretty much expect all races heavily tied to campaign settings will also be in DM hands.
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592Players rarely "need" to buy books. :) However, WotC does "need" to keep cranking out player books in order to keep the revenue stream going. It's simple math - you can sell to 1 DM or 5 players.
Are there really groups where every player buys multiple books a year? And Paizo has shown you be a successful RPG company selling mainly to DMs. Their bread and butter are their adventure paths.
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592Even the back of the new PHB hints at what's coming (bold emphasis mine):
"Use this book to create exciting characters from among the most iconic D&D races and classes."
That implies (or at least I infer) that the 'lesser iconic' races and classes will be coming in another book. That's fine - WotC needs to make money - but I'll be very surprised if most of their future content targets DMs.
No doubt there will be books aimed at players. But I really doubt it will be anything like 3E - the Next devs have repeatedly said not to expect nearly as much crunch released as in previous editions, and that they made the mistake in the past of catering the game too much to hardcore players. The driving principles of Next is dialing back the complexity to make the game more accessible. Splat books undermine that principle.
I expect most of the Next books to be setting and adventure material, with player content embedded in them (new backgrounds, feats, sub-classes).
It seems reasonable to me that if the optional rules modules are in the DMG then future products that add to characters based on those modules would also be included in DM centered material.
Also, I think the DMG should include a magical tea party module just to piss off the 3E/4E crowd.
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592Players rarely "need" to buy books. :) However, WotC does "need" to keep cranking out player books in order to keep the revenue stream going. It's simple math - you can sell to 1 DM or 5 players.
Is that sounds logical but is that a good strategy overall? Now that we are in our second decade of companies following the "splat book" model where has it got them?
It seems that the only way to sustain a splatbook method of publishing is to reset the line every three to five years and start it over.
It also seems that every time this is done it fractures their fanbase.
Sure if you do nothing your overall sales will continue to decline so you have to somehow appeal to a new generation.
What if there is a different way? Instead of focusing on selling to the players. You focus on the experience i.e. the adventures, campaigns, and setting.
There can still be player oriented products that support what currently being focused on. The focus on crafting a package of products that support an interesting experience. A campaign in a city in a volcano caldera, a campaign about carving your realm out of the wilderness, and so on.
Fans your game can jump in and out whenever they like. In addition what they mastered about the game will still apply as the same "edition" is still being used.
The trick is that you have to craft an "interesting" experience that people want to play. It like trying to write a good book, or make a great film. There are things you can do improve the odds but it all still boils down to correctly guessing your audience's tastes.
It seems to me that if you want to publish for the long term the above "Paizo" model will work better than the White Wolf/Wizard model of new editions + splatbooks.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;751583And now we can see exactly what's going in on the Starter set. Pretty good for $20, IMO. Especially since players will have a way to generate their own PCs
I think this is not the end of the world.
Keep the starter set super simple.
Don't include the 15% of the PHB -- so as to not confuse the newbs at the beginning with all the extra material. Keep it lean and let them get right into it.
Include a sheet in the box telling them where to go to get the chargen rules.
It's a compromise. Not the way I would have preferred, but it's not super bad either. I mean, I bought a digital camera, and it didn't come with a full printed manual. Manual was on CD. Instead of throwing in the CD, I just googled the PDF from their website. Was easier. I think many people are like me. Grabbing a PDF off the website when you're ready for chargen should be no problem. Everybody does this for tonnes of stuff nowadays, kids and fogeys alike.
Also, this will get them interested in what else is for sale for D&D. Brings them to your website.
I would have preferred char gen in the box, but maybe they were wanting just to keep things dead simple for the newbs.
Well, I would have bought a complete game in a box, to give it a try. Would have paid up to maybe $40, the price of a typical RPG these days. I'm not buying their starter box or their $150 full game, and I doubt I'll bother trying to read stuff on their website - I hate reading stuff online unless it's HTML, ie actually designed for online presentation, but WoTC always use horrible pdfs. Guess I'll stick with my existing umpteen versions of D&D.
Quote from: estar;751605Is that sounds logical but is that a good strategy overall? Now that we are in our second decade of companies following the "splat book" model where has it got them?
It seems that the only way to sustain a splatbook method of publishing is to reset the line every three to five years and start it over.
It also seems that every time this is done it fractures their fanbase.
I didn't say it was a
good strategy - but that fact that we're in our second decade of it tells me that it's likely to happen again. I'm not sure that WotC has learned enough from their mistakes - or that Hasbro will be interested in following the Paizo model. Maybe I'm wrong.
Oh, one side note - I'm guessing that a decent chunk of Paizo's operating revenue comes from their online store, where they sell their own and other products directly to the fanbase. In contrast,
all WotC product goes through retailers and distributors who each take a significant cut of the MSRP.
Maybe they're planning to do what they did with 4e:
- The traditional DMG/PHB/MM game (for hardcore gamers)
- A more accessible Essentials-style game (for more casual gamers)
Perhaps the Starter Set is actually the beginning of the Essentials line and there are as-yet-unannounced products that will fill the chargen gap.
NB: I'm not saying that this is a good/logical idea/strategy. I'm just throwing it out there in a brainstorming sense...
It has just been announced that 15% of the Players Handbook will be online, free. This will be a PDF covering basic character generation.
Quote from: elfandghost;751621It has just been announced that 15% of the Players Handbook will be online, free. This will be a PDF covering basic character generation.
Stupid question: will it also be in the player's handbook?
Quote from: estar;751605Is that sounds logical but is that a good strategy overall? Now that we are in our second decade of companies following the "splat book" model where has it got them?
It seems that the only way to sustain a splatbook method of publishing is to reset the line every three to five years and start it over.
It also seems that every time this is done it fractures their fanbase.
Sure if you do nothing your overall sales will continue to decline so you have to somehow appeal to a new generation.
What if there is a different way? Instead of focusing on selling to the players. You focus on the experience i.e. the adventures, campaigns, and setting.
There can still be player oriented products that support what currently being focused on. The focus on crafting a package of products that support an interesting experience. A campaign in a city in a volcano caldera, a campaign about carving your realm out of the wilderness, and so on.
Fans your game can jump in and out whenever they like. In addition what they mastered about the game will still apply as the same "edition" is still being used.
The trick is that you have to craft an "interesting" experience that people want to play. It like trying to write a good book, or make a great film. There are things you can do improve the odds but it all still boils down to correctly guessing your audience's tastes.
It seems to me that if you want to publish for the long term the above "Paizo" model will work better than the White Wolf/Wizard model of new editions + splatbooks.
This is a really interesting point, and is related to something that rarely gets mentioned. Paizo is often touted as "doing it right" in these discussions (I've done it myself in the last couple days with respect to the Starter Set), but what doesn't get considered is what it costs Paizo to do so. Sure, the Pathfinder Adventure Paths are profitable, and have other ancillary benefits (network effects, shared stories, driving purchases of other materials) for the Pathfinder game, but we don't know what they spend to do that. Put another way, they could be bringing in $10 million, but spending $9.95 million to do so. I can't imagine WotC/Hasbro ever deciding that that's a business they're interested in. So it's not simply about "well, WotC wants to make money like any other business", or even that Hasbro wants D&D to be a $50 million brand, but that Hasbro wants margins that are impossible to maintain in the RPG business, no matter the revenue.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;751624Stupid question: will it also be in the player's handbook?
Well, if the 15% is taken from the Player's Handbook, then I'd say there's a pretty good chance that what they reproduce from the Handbook will be in the Handbook.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;751624Stupid question: will it also be in the player's handbook?
So will the PHB contain 100% or only 85% of itself?
:rotfl:
Didn't Pundit specifically say that an online chargen pdf and/or chargen website was not what he was talking about?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751628So will the PHB contain 100% or only 85% of itself?
:rotfl:
If it's 85% we'd create a paradox where the 15% from the PHB wasn't in the PHB, and therefore couldn't be taken from there. Thus, the universe would implode.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751629Didn't Pundit specifically say that an online chargen pdf and/or chargen website was not what he was talking about?
You know, all this coy double talk is probably driving an awful lot of traffic on this site...
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;751624Stupid question: will it also be in the player's handbook?
Sounds like 15% of the book. So not extra, and therefore in the book.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751632You know, all this coy double talk is probably driving an awful lot of traffic on this site...
Heh look at the aggregator on Enworld, every single game except 5e and d20 Modern is down from last check, 5e is up and almost a third of total measured traffic.
Quote from: estar;751605It seems that the only way to sustain a splatbook method of publishing is to reset the line every three to five years and start it over.
Or do what Margaret Weis Productions have done.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751629Didn't Pundit specifically say that an online chargen pdf and/or chargen website was not what he was talking about?
Yeah, i think so.
With news that the DMG will have sidebars with advice on how to convert previous editions to this one, i'm wondering whether part of the roll-out is to make all the pdfs at Drivethru free.
They've driven revenue for the last 2 years, so once next comes out they can reign that revenue stream in - all at once you've got an online library of material and notes on how to convert it.
I might be blowing smoke, but that also pretty much removes any criticism over a lack of an OGL or similar license.
they lost another old-timer (as in moldvay basic era). i would've tossed down $20 for a look at the starter--but no chargen inside is a dealbreaker.
sure, i'll check out the free online stuff when they post it. but WotC won't get any of my chump change, either :idunno:
Saw this a moment ago at ENWorld:
Quote from: GX.SigmaTwitter update: This PDF is "part of" what Mike and Pundit were talking about (and the "key part" as far as the starter set is concerned).
Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355344-BoardGameGeek-at-a-5e-Seminar/page3#ixzz32TBBsNP3
A PDF? That's the magical middle step between the starter set and the $100 you have to spend to fully dive in?
Quote from: beeber;751639they lost another old-timer (as in moldvay basic era). i would've tossed down $20 for a look at the starter--but no chargen inside is a dealbreaker.
sure, i'll check out the free online stuff when they post it. but WotC won't get any of my chump change, either :idunno:
So you would have paid $20 for the basic character creation rules?
Quote from: CRKrueger;751629Didn't Pundit specifically say that an online chargen pdf and/or chargen website was not what he was talking about?
Having a free online pdf of chargen rules does not preclude a free widely distributed chargen booklet. In fact they should have both for maximum coverage.
Quote from: Omega;7514871: WOTC suffers this alot more than people suspect.
You have no idea.
Quote from: Dodger;751581It's 11 days and only to stores in the Wizards Play Network.
Really, you're nitpicking me over that? Really?
Quote from: Mistwell;751579"(!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets. [EDIT: @thalmin mentioned the rules will be for BASIC characters (emphasis from the WotC rep)]"
Not what I was hoping for - still chargen rules in the Player's Guide, and a free app.
Sorry, but who actually stated this, and where? It wasn't Mike Mearls, I assume?
In any case, I can say this is a very underwhelming way of stating things that are planned. Its like they intentionally chose the dumbest or least uplifting way of stating things.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Dodger;751636Or do what Margaret Weis Productions have done.
As I understand they have a core system (codex) that they adapt, aka chaosium, to a specific licensed property. Once the license is done, they move on to the next line.
They specialize in creating interesting experience around licensed properties with a somewhat common system between them. Chaosium has been successful with something similar for a long time.
Quote from: Saplatt;751645So you would have paid $20 for the basic character creation rules?
i would have paid that to see what entry-level 5e turned out to be, to get an idea of "what the kids are playing these days" etc. my idea of a starter set is moldvay basic--which did not say "play only these characters from levels 1-3 (5 in the case of 5e)." it's a usable introduction with plenty of room for beginning adventures. hate to use the term that's been tossed around, but only pregens = crippleware, period.
hells, a WoW starter account is free, and lets you play whatever you want up to level 20. not "choose from one of these 5 characters to try."
but hey, i don't have a group, so not like i would've actually blown the $150 or whatever for all 3 books. they wouldn't have got more that $20 outta me anyway.
Quote from: Haffrung;751584Releasing book after book of content geared at players - and the rules-heavy char op mode of play it encouraged - is what made me walk away from D&D in the 3E era. I find it encouraging that 5E will be a game that's simple enough where players don't need to buy books, and where most of the published content will be aimed at DMs.
Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity. When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".
Quote from: RPGPundit;751652Sorry, but who actually stated this, and where? It wasn't Mike Mearls, I assume?
In any case, I can say this is a very underwhelming way of stating things that are planned. Its like they intentionally chose the dumbest or least uplifting way of stating things.
RPGPundit
This was just someone reporting what was mentioned at another event - not the text of the announcement itself.
Quote from: Warthur;751589Pundit, was this the thing you were expecting that'd make us feel more excited about the Starter Set?
The only way I can honestly answer this is to say "I don't know..."
If it is what this guy (some WoTC guy??) is talking about, then it is the absolute most underwhelming way possible to explain the news, and I would go so far as to accuse it of being inaccurate.
Its so off-mark from what I've heard that I wonder if this isn't just something different, some stopgap no one bothered to tell me about.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751632You know, all this coy double talk is probably driving an awful lot of traffic on this site...
If I could just say everything I know, I would. Instantly. And I think that it would be best for WoTC, too.
Quote from: Mistwell;751651Really, you're nitpicking me over that? Really?
Look, you're going to have to come up with something better than pointing at a pre-existing programme to back up your "They're leaving chargen out of the Starter Set to help retail stores" theory.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751655Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity. When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".
I also think that GMs are largely who you need to inspire because game masters are the ones who start games and keep them going.
If it's confirmed as a PDF then I'm satisfied. Most of the rulebooks I use these days are PDFs or printouts of PDFs. Most kids capable of digesting D&D these days are fully capable of reaching a PDF. Furthermore, I can't help but squint in bemusement at anyone who would find printing out a free PDF to include with a box set to be too onerous for their gamer purity.
As far as I'm concerned, this was an acceptable move, and if Pundit is right then it isn't even the whole story yet.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751660If I could just say everything I know, I would. Instantly. And I think that it would be best for WoTC, too.
No doubt.
Quote from: beeber;751639they lost another old-timer (as in moldvay basic era). i would've tossed down $20 for a look at the starter--but no chargen inside is a dealbreaker.
sure, i'll check out the free online stuff when they post it. but WotC won't get any of my chump change, either :idunno:
I find your username hilariously appropriate to the whining. You can add the god damn character generation rules to the fucking box set for fucking free. FREE. You can customize the pre-gens or make a whole slew of them yourself. The box set is now TWELVE. FUCKING. DOLLARS. ON Amazon!!!! That's less than I spent to see Godzilla in that fancy new fuck cares all RDX whatever format at Regal. I mean fuck a mega dungeon backwards riding a My Little Pony are you fucking kidding me? At this point, anyone bitching about "there's no character generation IN the boxed set is a deal breaker" is so THICK in the head it's pretty obvious you had no intention of liking the new game anyways.
I mean for fucks sake, I'm not a fan of WOTC, or D&D for that matter and everything I've seen so far gives me (a non fan, non D&D player) hope that they got it right. And yet, there's what 15 or 20 grog-tards here that are so fucking rage-blind that WOTC didn't stick their childhood fantasy of a game into a pretty box and play with thier pee-pees with it that they have to stop by and inform us WOTC lost them as a customer because "I didn't get what I wanted" BOO HOO. Holy Christ. This thread is how many pages now and still some ding dong has to roll in like a recently released patient from the prison halfway house and declare his/her inane complete misunderstanding.
Look. It's really fucking simple. The box set was not designed to be a "complete game" in and of itself. The whole LINE is supposed to be a complete game. They didn't cater to your cheap miserable ancient grogtardia nonsense because the $100 they COULD have made off the lot of you was hardly worth it. Nor will it every be. Instead, they are creating a game that will have a broader appeal and support a business model that actually works. Not some fucking stupid "oh god save our little hobby because my dick is wrinkled" non-profit geriatric AARP article on page 27 of the magazine. An actual fucking business plan. It doesn't include you. Or the other dozen pee-hole whining morons who are going to be playing some goddamn $5 OSR spin off anyways (probably pirated to boot).
TL: DR - You are a fucking idiot. Go back into your basement and play your stolen OSR games with your stuffed recently departed cat.
Looks like somebody needs a xanax. :D
Quote from: Dodger;751661Look, you're going to have to come up with something better than pointing at a pre-existing programme to back up your "They're leaving chargen out of the Starter Set to help retail stores" theory.
I understand it doesn't persuade you, but then this quote of yours doesn't answer my question nor addresses the issue we're talking about in any meaningful way.
You nitpicked 3 days, and you think that makes a good point? You think that leads one to conclude something about whether or not WOTC is trying to support retailers more? It does not.
Here is the information so far:
Quote from: Thaumaturge;6304305Some tidits from twitter (@boardgamegeek)
- Attending a seminar w/ WotC showing off the new D&D volumes; new $20 starter set on July 19, 2014.
- New emphasis on villainous organizations in the 2014 D&D Monster Manual to match the number of monsters in it.
- Sidebars in the new DMG help DMs to customize the game to match past editions of D&D.
- WotC rep: We're focused on D&D right now, but another expansion for Lords of Waterdeep will come at some point.
- WotC rep: D&D staggered release dates for books is a result of editing; focus on one book at a time. (Says I, ?)
- WotC rep on what it has that Paizo/Pathfinder doesn't: We can build on the D&D brand through multiple channels to get players to your store.
- Then the WotC rep hinted at a D&D movie being in the works. Again?
- (!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets. [EDIT: [MENTION=662]thalmin[/MENTION] mentioned the rules will be for BASIC characters (emphasis from the WotC rep)]
- @twick516 — he mentioned that you can make the game more tactical or sweeping as desired, so I'm guessing optional rules.
- D&D Starter Set has 5 pregenerated characters & 64-page adventure that's "the best intro adventure ever". But of course he'd said that...
- WotC rep: WizKids miniatures to accompany the D&D Starter Set will not be an Alliance exclusive.
- The back of the PHB [ATTACH=CONFIG]61770[/ATTACH]
- The back of the DMG [ATTACH=CONFIG]61771[/ATTACH]
- The back of the MM [ATTACH=CONFIG]61772[/ATTACH]
- Back of the Starter Set [ATTACH=CONFIG]61773[/ATTACH]
Ok, guys. 15% of the PHB free on the WotC site. That's pretty cool. Right?
Thaumaturge.
Images did not carry through but you can view them here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355344-BoardGameGeek-at-a-5e-Seminar).
Trying to post them here:
(http://i1314.photobucket.com/albums/t577/markcronan/BoP4vAtCcAQu8tzjpg-large_zps9adc13e8.jpeg)
(http://i1314.photobucket.com/albums/t577/markcronan/BoP45e1CIAEu8Jejpg-large_zps4966503a.jpeg)
(http://i1314.photobucket.com/albums/t577/markcronan/BoP6iBDCAAAiI50jpg-large_zps61bd8594.jpeg)
(http://i1314.photobucket.com/albums/t577/markcronan/BoP5ld9CQAEMHAvjpg-large_zpsfaedca01.jpeg)
It seems evident to me what happened here - Wizards had to stick to a strict budget on the manufacturing and shipping costs of those boxes, and taking out the character gen rules and providing them separately made it possible to do that without compromising on all the other stuff the boxed set needs to do.
If that free PDF is also going to be distributed at game stores (and toy stores) as a free booklet then all's dandy.
Quote from: trechriron;751679I find your username hilariously appropriate to the whining. You can add the god damn character generation rules to the fucking box set for fucking free. FREE. You can customize the pre-gens or make a whole slew of them yourself. The box set is now TWELVE. FUCKING. DOLLARS. ON Amazon!!!! That's less than I spent to see Godzilla in that fancy new fuck cares all RDX whatever format at Regal. I mean fuck a mega dungeon backwards riding a My Little Pony are you fucking kidding me? At this point, anyone bitching about "there's no character generation IN the boxed set is a deal breaker" is so THICK in the head it's pretty obvious you had no intention of liking the new game anyways.
I mean for fucks sake, I'm not a fan of WOTC, or D&D for that matter and everything I've seen so far gives me (a non fan, non D&D player) hope that they got it right. And yet, there's what 15 or 20 grog-tards here that are so fucking rage-blind that WOTC didn't stick their childhood fantasy of a game into a pretty box and play with thier pee-pees with it that they have to stop by and inform us WOTC lost them as a customer because "I didn't get what I wanted" BOO HOO. Holy Christ. This thread is how many pages now and still some ding dong has to roll in like a recently released patient from the prison halfway house and declare his/her inane complete misunderstanding.
Look. It's really fucking simple. The box set was not designed to be a "complete game" in and of itself. The whole LINE is supposed to be a complete game. They didn't cater to your cheap miserable ancient grogtardia nonsense because the $100 they COULD have made off the lot of you was hardly worth it. Nor will it every be. Instead, they are creating a game that will have a broader appeal and support a business model that actually works. Not some fucking stupid "oh god save our little hobby because my dick is wrinkled" non-profit geriatric AARP article on page 27 of the magazine. An actual fucking business plan. It doesn't include you. Or the other dozen pee-hole whining morons who are going to be playing some goddamn $5 OSR spin off anyways (probably pirated to boot).
TL: DR - You are a fucking idiot. Go back into your basement and play your stolen OSR games with your stuffed recently departed cat.
Tell us what you really think. Don't sugar coat it.
I must admit that I find all this hub bub about the Dungeons & Dragons starter set amusing, considering that the Shadowrun Fifth Edition introductory box set was originally scheduled to ship in February, and has since been broken into two separate box sets for a total price of $80.00, neither of which has been released. CGL still hasn't given release dates for either of the Shadowrun Fifth Edition box sets either.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751655Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity. When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".
I know many people think an RPG with the market expectations of D&D can only be successful with reams and reams of player-targeted books. But with that model, the kind of game you have on your hands gets less and less accessible. So you're selling more books per customer, but the customer-base is shrinking. You have X customers buying 2.5 books per year each. It makes more sense to me for D&D to aim to be a game where you have 2X people playing the game and buying 1.5 books per year each (with the DM accounting for several a year, and most players not buying any). Fewer books bought per player, but many more players.
Quote from: Celestial;751698I must admit that I find all this hub bub about the Dungeons & Dragons starter set amusing, considering that the Shadowrun Fifth Edition introductory box set was originally scheduled to ship in February, and has since been broken into two separate box sets for a total price of $80.00, neither of which has been released. CGL still hasn't given release dates for either of the Shadowrun Fifth Edition box sets either.
Shadowrun's publishers doesn't have an online community of hundreds of dick-hurt geeks who despise their very existence and desperately want them to fail.
Speaking of two separate boxed sets, I note that Pundit's posted to his blog suggesting people pay close attention to the tweet that said "@thalmin mentioned the rules will be for BASIC characters (emphasis from the WotC rep)".
So, calling it now: there's going to be a complete Basic D&D game, either something that's 100% free to download or its own boxed set/book, which expands on the Starter Set without getting as complex as the Big Three books (whilst maintaining compatibility with them).
Quote from: Haffrung;751704Shadowrun's publishers doesn't have an online community of hundreds of dick-hurt geeks who despise their very existence and desperately want them to fail.
Yes, we all know that Wizards of the Coast has
never alienated any of their customer base over the last 15 years.
Quote from: Haffrung;751702...It makes more sense to me for D&D to aim to be a game where you have 2X people playing the game and buying 1.5 books per year each (with the DM accounting for several a year, and most players not buying any). Fewer books bought per player, but many more players.
Not to mention the fact that the more players you have, the easier it is to find a game and the easier it is for a gaming group to grow.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751697Tell us what you really think. Don't sugar coat it.
Hey, I was completely on board with him until he got to the part about the stuffed cat.
I'm here to tell you that stuffed cats are a lot easier to manage than live ones.
That will work.
It's not elegant, but having free Character Generation available from the PHB, in lieu of having chargen included in the starter set will work. Shouldn't be too much trouble to print the pages. ...Probably too late to add chargen to the starter set...
This just made it back into the buy list to try.
Quote from: Endless Flight;751683Looks like somebody needs a xanax. :D
"You didn't tell me he'd gone
that crazy."
Quote from: Saplatt;751714Hey, I was completely on board with him until he got to the part about the stuffed cat.
I'm here to tell you that stuffed cats are a lot easier to manage than live ones.
The tell, as to where he's coming from in his frothing rage, is in the "stolen OSR games" comment.
More on sources of this info:
Quote from: Thaumaturge;6304572Well, since I'm the one quoted, without attribution, on RPG Pundit, here (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/05/continued-5e-update.html), I figured I'd update the first post with more on where the information came from. I should have done this originally.
I grabbed BoardGameGeek (https://twitter.com/boardgamegeek)'s twitter feed. He attended ACD Distribution's 2014 Gamesday (http://revista.acdd.com/gamesday/).
I wasn't there, but those are my sources.
Thaumaturge.
Quote from: Morrus;6304573I think lots of people grabbed BGG's twitter feed - I know I did, and Jon Bolding at The Escapist did, too. It's a popular feed! That aside, Mearls confirmed it too, so there's no doubt as to its veracity.
Quote from: Warthur;751706So, calling it now: there's going to be a complete Basic D&D game, either something that's 100% free to download or its own boxed set/book, which expands on the Starter Set without getting as complex as the Big Three books (whilst maintaining compatibility with them).
A complete Basic D&D box/book would be a good option. A free PDF of just PC Creation is a bad option (and something that was also possible under 3e and it didn't make that edition's Starter Set any less poor).
Quote from: thedungeondelver;751719The tell, as to where he's coming from in his frothing rage, is in the "stolen OSR games" comment.
Really? I think there's some very interesting and well done things going in with with the OSR. I was not speaking as if "people who make OSR or clones are stealing from D&D". I was speaking more of the miserly cheapness I'm picking up on. Pirating stuff is popular, I believe the people whining are also cheap, therefor I make a joke about them pirating stuff because even the OSR prices (many being free...) are too expensive...
Let me be more clear. I feel like the hard core "D&D for life" grognard crowd tends to prefer older editions of D&D. There's some nostalgia here sometimes tinged with maybe some near-religious devotion. Which is cool. I'm a nerd after all so I can hardly criticize. Enthusiasm is the lifeblood of a hobby. This crowd also seems to appreciate low cost or free. They want some mileage out of a gaming product. The tight budgets are painted all over the membership cards.
I feel the jabs at the D&D 5e box set and approach are ignorant. You can buy a very inexpensive box set, download a free PDF, and play D&D. A complete game now for $12. Even better, you can use the thing as a true recruiting tool setting up DMs with groups of new players. It's a savvy approach and all the lamenting seems to be missing that point. It's very "but what about MY box set?". I'm listening to people complain that WOTC is not going to let them buy in to a whole game for $12 and walk away (which they could do actually). I keep hearing things like "why is this so hard?" "WOTC fails again..." which really chaps my ass. They haven't failed. If they are going to, we'll have to wait for several more months (if not the rest of the year) to determine that.
Where D&D goes, the hobby (and industry) follows. 1980 is behind us. The world has changed and will continue to do so. It's obvious WOTC has figured that out and is trying a new approach with a starter box set (and maybe even a Basic vs. Advanced game...) that capitalizes on current realities. In addition, the current reality is that WOTC needs to regularly sell stuff to stay in business. I cannot believe people with the tenure in this hobby that grognards have don't see that. It's like asking your local grocer if you can get a $12 vegetables for life card and then later (after he stupidly agrees) being surprised the store is closed. I don't believe the basic box set is targeted at grognards anymore because grognards are not a viable market (certainly not to the extent WOTC needs to remain solvent). The hobby can succeed without grognards.
It's likely going to HAVE to. (especially now with the prevailing attitude of the old forum-addled peeps all throwing up their arms in disgust) In many ways that's too bad. There's a lot of brain trust in the veterans. It would be a shame to see the "new" D&D move on without some of their influence on the new comers.
Quote from: trechriron;751755Where D&D goes, the hobby (and industry) follows.
The OGL ensured that wouldn't be the case any longer. Pathfinder is now the kind of the hill. The reason for some of the angst here is that Paizo released an excellent beginner box and people want Wizards to take a cue from that and create a comparable product. They do not see one here, at least from what everyone's been told.
Who knows. It may succeed, it may not. Let's hope it does. There's definitely less room for error now than there was 15 years ago.
Quote from: trechriron;751755I feel the jabs at the D&D 5e box set and approach are ignorant. You can buy a very inexpensive box set, download a free PDF, and play D&D. A complete game now for $12.
How is that different from the crippleware D&D3e Starter Box and the SRD? Or the crippleware D&D4e Starter Box and DDI (+$10)? And how does it stack up to Pathfinder's full Beginner Box and the OGL?
What WotC are doing here is from the looks of it exactly the same as what they have done before. The only noteworthy thing is that they have valued an extra $10 against having a complete Starter Box. You can judge that appropriate if you want (as you would have done with 3e or 4e) but I don't agree for the many reasons that have been hashed over in detail already.
Make the entry point into the RPG complete and replayable for a decent length of time, especially if its just a matter of $10. Over time, the immediate return you get from impulse buys and by rushing people to buy your $150 Core Set sooner is unlikely to beat the overall return of genuinely hooking players by making that first experience as best as it possibly can and encouraging experienced RPGers to gift that entry point to potential customers.
The first hit is cheap/free [STARTER SET! GOING CHEAP! 15%!!]. You go to the dealers house to pick it up.
You have to use his gear/kit/tools to enable the hit[DOWNLOAD THE CHARACTER GENERATION/15% of the PHB].
You then get in to more and more and more of this stuff[BUY ALL THE STUFF!! SUBSCRIBE! CONSUME!].
Marketing or drug dealers? You decide... When hobby meets business and concessions are made.
Quote from: Skywalker;751767How is that different from the crippleware D&D3e Starter Box and the SRD?
The SRD is not reader friendly or artfully presented like I presume this booklet/pdf will be?
Quote from: Skywalker;751767Or the crippleware D&D4e Starter Box and DDI (+$10)?
The description of this box thus far looks much better than the shit 4e one which was shit for a whole host of reasons other than the character gen? The booklet/pdf is free, unlike DDI?
Quote from: Skywalker;751767And how does it stack up to Pathfinder's full Beginner Box and the OGL?
It's more affordable and accessible, which does count for something, right?
Quote from: Skywalker;751767... and encouraging experienced RPGers to gift that entry point to potential customers.
I don't know if as many "experienced RPGers" are going to care in the real world as you are suggesting. If this really is the arrangement (very affordable 20$-or-less box that starts as fast as
World of Warcraft / Diablo and has free and easily accessible/printable content that makes it deeper than those two highly addictive titles) it sound perfectly reasonable to me and countless others I'm sure.
...and just to note here. Pathfinder was originally released as a free PDF... The entire game. Then they sold a real dead tree copy.
So when folks here talk about ...how could the grogs let Wotc....??? .
Wotc will do what WOTC does. Doesn't really have much to do with us. We will call them on it though, when they release a starter set, that is not a starter.
Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game.
Yes, we'll call them on that. every. time. because the new players and GMs deserve better!!!
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774The description of this box thus far looks much better than the shit 4e one which was shit for a whole host of reasons other than the character gen?
Where's the pawns and maps? Even if they don't use 5' movement like 3e/4e, a nice map and pawns to look at and fiddle with would be cool.
I mean, at least the shit 4e box had those.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774The SRD is not reader friendly or artfully presented like I presume this booklet/pdf will be?
So, the point of distinction is that this time it has layout?
Does the SRD get any bonus points for being 100% of the rules, not just 15%?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774The description of this box thus far looks much better than the shit 4e one which was shit for a whole host of reasons other than the character gen?
So, you revert to a subjective opinion to avoid the arguing the point?
But yes, it did cost $10, though you got a whole lot more than 15% of the PHB.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774It's more affordable and accessible, which does count for something, right?
Yes, as noted in my post. You can value that difference how you like.
TBH I am cool that people may be happy with the 5e approach. What I don't understand is how some of these people are trying to pretend that this approach is "in every respect better" than previous approaches.
What we are getting here is simply the same as before. If you were cool with what came before, then you will be cool with this too. If you weren't, then surely its understandable to be non-plussed by what you are seeing.
Quote from: Endless Flight;751777Where's the pawns and maps? Even if they don't use 5' movement like 3e/4e, a nice map and pawns to look at and fiddle with would be cool.
I mean, at least the shit 4e box had those.
But the holy Mentzer box didn't, right? (I'll admit I could be wrong)
This feels like moving the goalposts here.
But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751782But the holy Mentzer box didn't, right? (I'll admit I could be wrong)
This feels like moving the goalposts here.
But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.
You are correct, the Mentzer box didn't.
I'm not really shifting the goalposts.
The 4e box was $20 and included tokens and two double sided maps, if my memory serves me correctly. The 5e box is also $20 but has no maps or tokens. Shouldn't there be a price difference or is that just inflation?
I'm not really keen on tactical combat driven by 5' squares on maps, but I like seeing those kinds of goodies in boxes anyway, just for the visual aid, if nothing else.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751655Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity. When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".
I really did LOL at that.
Quote from: GameDaddy;751776...and just to note here. Pathfinder was originally released as a free PDF... The entire game. Then they sold a real dead tree copy.
So when folks here talk about ...how could the grogs let Wotc....??? .
Wotc will do what WOTC does. Doesn't really have much to do with us. We will call them on it though, when they release a starter set, that is not a starter.
Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game.
Yes, we'll call them on that. every. time. because the new players and GMs deserve better!!!
And we will continue to call you on that. Every. Time. Because it's not gimped, and when pressed for how it is gimped we get incredibly lame answers like "if it's not in the box then it magically doesn't count, even if you already had access to the missing part for free".
In addition, as an OGL game, Paizo had NO CHOICE. In fact, THEY didn't put it online first, someone else did and they responded to that with their own online version. That's what happens when you leach from the industry leader under their licensing system. Note that WOTC did have a choice about putting it online, and did anyway. But you trumpeting Paizo for putting it online like it was some beneficent act of kindness is fucking hilarious, and a misrepresentation.
Quote from: Skywalker;751781So, the point of distinction is that this time it has layout?
Sure. As others have mentioned, it matters.
Quote from: Skywalker;751781Does the SRD get any bonus points for being 100% of the rules, not just 15%?
Of course, but only devoted gearheads delve into a document that forbidding, not new players looking for an easy upgrade to something they are tentatively contemplating as a longer term hobby.
Quote from: Skywalker;751781So, you revert to a subjective opinion to avoid the arguing the point?
Sure. This whole conversation is rife with subjectivity.
Quote from: Skywalker;751781But yes, it did cost $10, though you got a whole lot more than 15% of the PHB.
Yes you did, but 10$ is 10$ when you're debating taking a few more tentative steps into a hobby. And I had DDI; it was NOT printer friendly and it could be quite intimidating to navigate.
Quote from: Skywalker;751781What I don't understand is how some of these people are trying to pretend that this approach is "in every respect better" than previous approaches.
Fair enough. I think it's not as good as Mentzer (from what I've seen) better than 4e, and more accessible than Pathfinder.
Quote from: Skywalker;751781Does the SRD get any bonus points for being 100% of the rules, not just 15%?
You don't get bonus points for doing what you had to do in the process of leaching from the industry leader under their licensing scheme.
Again, Paizo isn't even the people that put that SRD up initially - someone else did (because they could, based on the license rules) and Paizo followed later to try and repaid the damage.
I don't think chargen out of the box is strictly necessary. In my experience you hook noobs by letting them play, not forcing them to read rules or fumble through chargen. Making that stuff available free online seems like a more than acceptable compromise, especially if losing the extra 50 page booklet is helping to keep the price down.
Quote from: Endless Flight;751783The 4e box was $20 and included tokens and two double sided maps, if my memory serves me correctly. The 5e box is also $20 but has no maps or tokens. Shouldn't there be a price difference or is that just inflation?
Hmm, you're on point, same price, less content. Well, looks like inflation all right. Guess we'll just have to hope that the lighter rule set will mean the two booklets will cover more ground that the 4e ones could.
(I also note that legendary Mentzer only goes to level 3, right? Well this one goes to 5 and has more complex characters overall, so that must count for something in terms of that precious play time.)
Quote from: Mistwell;751785And we will continue to call you on that. Every. Time. Because it's not gimped, if it's not in the box then it magically doesn't count, even if you already had access to the missing part for free".
Hrmmm?
No. That was announced the day after they figured out no one would be buying a starter set without having some character generation included.Then they pulled a section directly out of their new PHB for that.
Poor planning, followed up with a poor initial press release. I'd call it a sound recovery for 5e though, a recovery from a major oversight. At least now, new players may actually be able to try the whole game.
Quote from: Mistwell;751788You don't get bonus points for doing what you had to do in the process of leaching from the industry leader under their licensing scheme.
How did Paizo leach? Did they violate the OGL, which was provided freely by Wizards?
Quote from: Endless Flight;751777Where's the pawns and maps? Even if they don't use 5' movement like 3e/4e, a nice map and pawns to look at and fiddle with would be cool.
I mean, at least the shit 4e box had those.
That would be an automatic no-buy for me.
We want a roleplaying game, not a wargame.
Don't you remember the tagline on the original Red Box?
No game board required because the action takes place in your imagination.
We need to showcase the uniqueness of the RPG, not make it look like another board game where you move pieces around a board.
Quote from: GameDaddy;751793Hrmmm? No. That was announced the day after they figured out no one would be buying a starter set without having some character generation included.
Then they pulled a section directly out of their new PHB for that.
Not good planning. Not really good execution. I'd call it a sound recovery for 5e though from an initial major oversight. At least now, new players may actually be able to try the whole game.
Mearls announced that chargen would be available for the Starter Set within
hours of the announcement. It literally went, "Starter Set!" "Is there chargen?" "Yes, it will be available."
Then people said, "In the box?" "No, not in the box itself." And people
lost their shit because it wouldn't be in the box.
Quote from: Endless Flight;751794How did Paizo leach? Did they violate the OGL, which was provided freely by Wizards?
Did mistwell just call Paizo a bunch of leeches?
Quote from: Skywalker;751781TBH I am cool that people may be happy with the 5e approach. What I don't understand is how some of these people are trying to pretend that this approach is "in every respect better" than previous approaches.
What we are getting here is simply the same as before. If you were cool with what came before, then you will be cool with this too. If you weren't, then surely its understandable to be non-plussed by what you are seeing.
Again, you still haven't got all the information yet.
Quote from: 1989;751795No game board required because the action takes place in your imagination.
Quote from: 1989;751795the action takes place in your imagination
Quote from: 1989;751795your imagination
(http://i.imgur.com/j9Lx2ZJ.gif)
Quote from: RPGPundit;751799Again, you still haven't got all the information yet.
Cool. I continue to watch and wait. Good to know that the free character generating PDF doesn't constitute the amazing new approach.
Quote from: GameDaddy;751793Hrmmm? No. That was announced the day after they figured out no one would be buying a starter set without having some character generation included.
Then they pulled a section directly out of their new PHB for that.
Poor planning, followed up with a poor initial press release. I'd call it a sound recovery for 5e though, a recovery from a major oversight. At least now, new players may actually be able to try the whole game.
Um, no. The plan I'm excited about was conveyed to me in general terms way back around October of last year and was conveyed to me in concrete terms around March.
They're not just making shit up as they go along; what they ARE doing is being pretty fucking goofy at what they choose to reveal and when.
RPGPundit
Quote from: 1989;751795That would be an automatic no-buy for me.
We want a roleplaying game, not a wargame.
Don't you remember the tagline on the original Red Box?
No game board required because the action takes place in your imagination.
We need to showcase the uniqueness of the RPG, not make it look like another board game where you move pieces around a board.
There's been maps and minis in RPGs since the 70s. I'm not sure why you think they are foreign objects.
Quote from: dar;751798Did mistwell just call Paizo a bunch of leeches?
That's how I took it. Pretty low blow, really.
Quote from: Warthur;751690It seems evident to me what happened here - Wizards had to stick to a strict budget on the manufacturing and shipping costs of those boxes, and taking out the character gen rules and providing them separately made it possible to do that without compromising on all the other stuff the boxed set needs to do.
If that free PDF is also going to be distributed at game stores (and toy stores) as a free booklet then all's dandy.
I find it far more likely that testing with their primary intended audience for the project showed that character creation rules bogged things down and bored/confused/frustrated new players.
Quote from: trechriron;751755Let me be more clear. I feel like the hard core "D&D for life" grognard crowd tends to prefer older editions of D&D. There's some nostalgia here sometimes tinged with maybe some near-religious devotion. Which is cool. I'm a nerd after all so I can hardly criticize. Enthusiasm is the lifeblood of a hobby. This crowd also seems to appreciate low cost or free. They want some mileage out of a gaming product. The tight budgets are painted all over the membership cards.
I feel the jabs at the D&D 5e box set and approach are ignorant. You can buy a very inexpensive box set, download a free PDF, and play D&D. A complete game now for $12. Even better, you can use the thing as a true recruiting tool setting up DMs with groups of new players. It's a savvy approach and all the lamenting seems to be missing that point. It's very "but what about MY box set?". I'm listening to people complain that WOTC is not going to let them buy in to a whole game for $12 and walk away (which they could do actually). I keep hearing things like "why is this so hard?" "WOTC fails again..." which really chaps my ass. They haven't failed. If they are going to, we'll have to wait for several more months (if not the rest of the year) to determine that.
Where D&D goes, the hobby (and industry) follows. 1980 is behind us. The world has changed and will continue to do so. It's obvious WOTC has figured that out and is trying a new approach with a starter box set (and maybe even a Basic vs. Advanced game...) that capitalizes on current realities. In addition, the current reality is that WOTC needs to regularly sell stuff to stay in business. I cannot believe people with the tenure in this hobby that grognards have don't see that. It's like asking your local grocer if you can get a $12 vegetables for life card and then later (after he stupidly agrees) being surprised the store is closed. I don't believe the basic box set is targeted at grognards anymore because grognards are not a viable market (certainly not to the extent WOTC needs to remain solvent). The hobby can succeed without grognards.
It's likely going to HAVE to. (especially now with the prevailing attitude of the old forum-addled peeps all throwing up their arms in disgust) In many ways that's too bad. There's a lot of brain trust in the veterans. It would be a shame to see the "new" D&D move on without some of their influence on the new comers.
Don't make the mistake of believing the grognards who post on RPG forums are representative of the lapsed and long-time D&D players who WotC are hoping to bring back into the fold. Pissing and moaning about WotC and everything official D&D since 1986 is a hobby unto itself for a lot of forum grogs. The guys I know in the real world who have played D&D on an off for 35 years don't post on forums, have no idea what the OSR is, have no feelings about WotC one way or another, and are excited about 5E. The nerdfury of a couple dozen forum grogs around here won't mean any more to the ultimate success or failure of Next than the nerd fury of the couple dozen 4E system wonks who dominate the RPGnet forums.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751782But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.
Pretty much. I can't for the life of figure out why so many people who obviously want WotC to fail with Next are shedding so many crocodile tears over their 'disappointment' with the Starter Set.
It's not just here, but on RPGNet too (although that's an entirely different group of people who hate WotC for entirely different reasons). Why do people who are clearly emotionally invested in the prospect of WotC failing with Next pretend to have even the barest shred of objective concern about the game's success? Something about D&D seems to tap into an abyss if unreason. I don't see it in any other hobby (though granted, D&D is by far the geekiest of my interests, so maybe this kind of passive-aggressive obsession is not all that peculiar among geeks). A sociologist could have a field day with D&D online edition wars.
Quote from: trechriron;751755The hobby can succeed without grognards.
Based on my being on various grogesque forums for several years and hearing the term "nephew," "niece," and "cousins" thrown around much more often than "my kids," "little hellions," and "embiggened poo machines" I think the hobby is a bit hindered by the forums bait grognards. Procreation and growing the hobby go hand in hand if you know what I mean. This is not the case for all grognards though!
Quote from: Haffrung;751813Pretty much. I can't for the life of figure out why so many people who obviously want WotC to fail with Next are shedding so many crocodile tears over their 'disappointment' with the Starter Set.
So no one here has laid out any valid concerns? They all just want 5e to fail miserably? They have some reservations after plunking down hard-earned cash for previous shitty starter sets and it's just crocodile tears?
Quote from: Endless Flight;751818So no one here has laid out any valid concerns? They all just want 5e to fail miserably? They have some reservations after plunking down hard-earned cash for previous shitty starter sets and it's just crocodile tears?
Sure there are valid concerns. But let's not pretend there aren't people on the forums who desperately want Next to fail out of resentment of WotC or a need to validate their tribe/prefered edition. The people who hate that 4e was published, the people hate that it isn't published anymore, and the people who hate everyone who 'stole' the game from Gygax. It's a veritable rogue's gallery of haters.
Quote from: GameDaddy;751776...and just to note here. Pathfinder was originally released as a free PDF... The entire game. Then they sold a real dead tree copy.
So when folks here talk about ...how could the grogs let Wotc....??? .
Wotc will do what WOTC does. Doesn't really have much to do with us. We will call them on it though, when they release a starter set, that is not a starter.
Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game.
Yes, we'll call them on that. every. time. because the new players and GMs deserve better!!!
And that's the truth.
That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?
Quote from: Haffrung;751821It's a veritable rogue's gallery of haters.
I'm not hating any of those things... what I'm hating is the idea of buying a 'starter' set where 'starter' doesn't mean 'start playing' it means 'start figuring out what else you need to play'.
I can buy an actual game for $20... I don't need to shell that out for a preview of a coming attraction.
If it turns out to be a complete game there'll be nothing to hate. Simple enough.
Quote from: David Johansen;751825That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?
It does make you wonder. They obviously couldn't compact a simplified version of character creation inside a 32 page booklet. Does this mean that space is going to be taken by one of those poorly written choose-your-own adventures?
If I have to play a d20 system* (and I do), I'd kinda rather do Pathfinder based on this news about the D&D Starter Set.
*= the game mechanic, not the copyright.
Quote from: Mistwell;751785That's what happens when you leach from the industry leader under their licensing system.
Is that what Paizo did? I thought Paizo stepped into the massive vacuum left by WotC as they willingly and by design abandoned the majority of their fans and their business partners leaving behind a publishing house they just told to go fuck off with nothing to publish besides an open system that WotC thought no one else would use?
The OGL was always holding the tiger by the tail, WotC let go. All the 4e butthurt in the world isn't going to put that on Paizo.
Quote from: David Johansen;751825That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?
Uh, they didn't. That's just speculative musing by Robiswrong about why pregens might be the default mode of play for newbies using the Starter Set.
Keep in mind the goal expressed by the designers is for newbies to able to sit down and start playing within 15 minutes.
I see how this works now.
Just come in and post the same misleading ignorant bullshit over and over and hopefully the thread dies with your diarrhea clogging up the end of it.
OK.
I can do that too. Let me restate with some fire on the words. Hopefully the burning sensation in the pucker hole will have a cognitive enhancing effect to the "repeat the same shit" crowd.
The Starter Box Set is a tool geared towards DMs with 5 PRE GENERATED CHARACTERS that gives the DM everything they need to setup and play. Immediately. BAM. As in YOU OPEN THE FUCKING BOX, HAND OUT CHARACTERS, AND PLAY. THE. FUCKING. GAME. How is that gimped? Is the XBox gimped because it only has one controller and one game? Is Munchkin gimped because the box set has only 100 cards? Is marbles crippled because the nice lady at the toy store didn't sell you ALL THE MARBLES. EVAR?!?!?! How many fucking ways can we possibly illustrate it so you get it? Do I have to break out Visio and diagram this shit?
In addition, you can download a free PDF that includes character generation so you can make more characters. Or, if you're so inclined, share with your new players and have them make new characters. Or print it out, and wrap a fucking {COLOR OF YOUR CHOICE} RIBBBON around the sacred holy missing parchments and place them ever so gently into the symbolic icon of your CHILDHOOD FUCKING FANTASIES where you can now store said adequately-weighted placeholder for your fragile ego in a glass case for all to look upon and be AMAZED! "Look!! The sacred box is NOW COMPLETE!! Hallowed be thy contents!!!"
If I don't come in every 3 pages or so and decry the NEXTantrums, kittens somewhere in the world die a horrible fiery death. I'm certain of it.
Quote from: trechriron;751836I can do that too...(snip)
So what you're saying is there's STILL no rules for character generation in the box? Yeah, gimped. Purposefully kept short of being a fully playable game (because fully playable RPGs include chargen).
It's a fucking $20 appetizer.
Quote from: trechriron;751836The Starter Box Set is a tool geared towards DMs with 5 PRE GENERATED CHARACTERS that gives the DM everything they need to setup and play. Immediately. BAM. As in YOU OPEN THE FUCKING BOX, HAND OUT CHARACTERS, AND PLAY. THE. FUCKING. GAME
Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.
Thank you.
Perhaps it is that we hope against hope that if there is enough outrage they'll rethink repeating a bad decision that hurts the entire hobby.
Even mmorpgs know that making your own character is one of the most awesome things about gaming and lead with it. Yes they pretty much keep it to pick a name, pick a class, pick a race. Huh, reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons, the most popular rpg on the planet, funny that.
Quote from: Benoist;751840Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.
Thank you.
Are you going to make me list all the early TSR D&D modules that included pregens in them? And I guess my buddies who let me make up characters for our last AD&D adventure I ran because they don't have time for that stuff these days have missed the entire point of roleplaying games?
Man, I gotta bookmark this thread for the next time the 'your character isn't what's on his sheet' meme erupts out of the grognard jihad.
Quote from: Simlasa;751838So what you're saying is there's STILL no rules for character generation in the box? Yeah, gimped. Purposefully kept short of being a fully playable game (because fully playable RPGs include chargen).
It's a fucking $20 appetizer.
To be cleqar and slightly less frantic than some (funny though :') )
You do not need a charcter generation system to start playing a game.
As have been noted you can sit down take a pregen and play.
If this is your first ever game, ie you are a starter, then this is probably a good idea.
Just like when you play Arkham Horror you don't need to make up your own character or when you play Talisman you accept one of the premade characters.
So far so good right?
Now if there was no way for you to make new characters without spending 50 bucks then that might be "crippleware" because making up your own PCs is definitely part of the whole RPG thing. But if the company give you access to a free resource to enable you to add that to your game to keep on playing with the rules in that box set but with your own characters (which cost you nothign and are fully compatible with the future game line as it develops) then I can't see it as crippleware.
Like I stated earlier I would have put the character book in the box and charged 10 bucks more and also sold the character book stand alone for 10 bucks but WotC are giving it away for free instead. There are lots of reasons they might be doing this -
i) The character book would cost money to edit etc into a single book format - just taking the character section of the PHB avoids that - no extra costs
ii) The fans would cry foul if the box set contained a chunk of stuff that was just repeated in the PHB because they would decry that they were paying for stuff twice
iii) For new players, 9 or 10 years old, who have no experience of RPGs just taking a premade character and getting started might very well be the best option as an introduction to play. I suspect the adventure will feel like a "choose your own adventure book" as well to a degree because you want the kids to open the box, decide who is DM, divy out the characters and then start playing and not have the DM kid have to take away a 64 page book and read through it at length interpret a load of rules and then reconvene all his mates for a game.
iv) The character section is probably going to be c. 50 pages (15% of the PHB). Adding that to a box set with c 120 pages of stuff increases weight and shipping by a hefty % so then they have to charge more even if they were going to give that stuff away for free anyway. Someone at WotC worked out that a $20 entry point was where they wanted to be to get the casual purchase to be.
So in short to the grognards... this isn't aimed at you. It's a starter set. Before you judge put yourself in the shoes of a 10 year old who's only exposure to RPGs is killing folk in Rennaisance Italy or shooting Russian separatists from a long way away on his console.
Quote from: David Johansen;751844Perhaps it is that we hope against hope that if there is enough outrage they'll rethink repeating a bad decision that hurts the entire hobby.
Even mmorpgs know that making your own character is one of the most awesome things about gaming and lead with it. Yes they pretty much keep it to pick a name, pick a class, pick a race. Huh, reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons, the most popular rpg on the planet, funny that.
Now you're just being purposely obtuse.
As far as I can tell the Starter set is for one of 2 groups.
A) People who have never played an rpg before, had no idea dice came in shapes other than a cube, complete newbs.
B) People who have some experience with rpgs and want to try out the 5th edition rules, in a simple affordable way. Everything you need to play is there, its a full game just with pregens. Its a full game, like any other game you might buy: Munchkin, Heroquest, Decent you get the idea. Also there's some free PDF content.Its not crippleware because its the rules, same ones in the PHB and you will need to know those to play.
People In group A in my experience do not want complication. Nothing glazes over a persons eyes like too many options that mean nothing because they have no idea how to play. The best way to learn is by doing, not by having someone tell you how to make a PC, which is what has happened almost every time I've played with brand new people trying Chargen in a complicated system like Pathfinder.
People in group B can read the basic rules, maybe run the adventure once with pregens, and then do one of 2 things: Download the PDF for Chargen or figure it out on their own using basic rpg know how and also come up with their own content. You know like every single person that has ever played a basic form of DnD usually ends up doing. You know the reasons DnD like B/X is praised, for its simple structure from which to hang your own house rules and ideas off of. Yeah that. If you cant figure out one of those 2 things then maybe you belong in group A.
Either way the Starter set seems to fit what you need, and all for $20.
Quote from: Haffrung;751846Are you going to make me list all the early TSR D&D modules that included pregens in them? And I guess my buddies who let me make up characters for our last AD&D adventure I ran because they don't have time for that stuff these days have missed the entire point of roleplaying games?
OK. This is SUCH a moronic statement that just comes up to muddy the waters when the matter of fact is that the OD&D set of 1974, the Holmes set of 1977, the AD&D PH of 1979, the Moldvay-Cook set of 1981, and the Mentzer set of 1983 each came up with character gen that I will just ask you to go fuck yourself. Fuck you and your ignoramus bullshit pretending to know what it is you are talking about when you in fact have no fucking clue or pretend to have no fucking clue (intimating if true that you consider the people you are talking to to be fucking morons in the first place) in order to make up LIES out of thin air. Fuck that partisan "I'll just support Next because FACTION" bullshit.
I don't have a problem with WotC. Or Next. I want them to succeed. I have a big problem with fucking assholes such as yourself who transform every criticism of a game system you have already given your heart and soul to as being problems themselves. You are doing exactly what the hardcore 4e gamers were doing at the time it came out, and it is absolutely AWFUL in terms of actually getting people to sympathize for your standpoint. It just makes you look like a moron, a troll, a douchebag, and ends up unselling people on your game of choice who would have otherwise considered playing it. YOU are the problem here, buddy. Go fuck yourself!
NOBODY here has a problem with pregens, which INDEED have been a part of the game (not in boxed sets, but in modules) from close to day one. The ACTUAL point is that you don't have to do one or the other. You can do both, and there is no sane reason to not include character gen in an introduction set to the world's premier role playing game, unless of course you understand fuck all about role playing games in the first place.
As in: Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game
and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.
That's the point. Thanks again. :hatsoff:
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751849As far as I can tell the Starter set is for one of 2 groups.
A) People who have never played an rpg before, had no idea dice came in shapes other than a cube, complete newbs.
B) People who have some experience with rpgs and want to try out the 5th edition rules, in a simple affordable way. Everything you need to play is there, its a full game just with pregens. Its a full game, like any other game you might buy: Munchkin, Heroquest, Decent you get the idea. Also there's some free PDF content.Its not crippleware because its the rules, same ones in the PHB and you will need to know those to play.
People In group A in my experience do not want complication. Nothing glazes over a persons eyes like too many options that mean nothing because they have no idea how to play. The best way to learn is by doing, not by having someone tell you how to make a PC, which is what has happened almost every time I've played with brand new people trying Chargen in a complicated system like Pathfinder.
People in group B can read the basic rules, maybe run the adventure once with pregens, and then do one of 2 things: Download the PDF for Chargen or figure it out on their own using basic rpg know how and also come up with their own content. You know like every single person that has ever played a basic form of DnD usually ends up doing. You know the reasons DnD like B/X is praised, for its simple structure from which to hang your own house rules and ideas off of. Yeah that. If you cant figure out one of those 2 things then maybe you belong in group A.
Either way the Starter set seems to fit what you need, and all for $20.
Exactly :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;751847...because making up your own PCs is definitely part of the whole RPG thing.
So it follows that a boxed set without chargen IS NOT A WHOLE RPG... right?
Doesn't matter if you can find it online, in a shop, tatooed on the head of a blind prophet... it's not in the box. The box is not complete. That was done on purpose... for some reason that smells more of corporate scheming more than it does concern over confused players.
And no, pre-gens are not in of themselves a bad thing... keep those in the box too.
Quote from: Simlasa;751853So it follows that a boxed set without chargen IS NOT A WHOLE RPG... right?
Doesn't matter if you can find it online, in a shop, tatooed on the head of a blind prophet... it's not in the box. The box is not complete. That was done on purpose... for some reason that smells more of corporate scheming more than it does concern over confused players.
Okay a few points again
i) its not a complete game its a starter set
ii) almost by definition the complete game can never be in a box set because it will include a myriadd of add ons and supplements - if the starter set had a book with 4 Classes but only humans would it be complete?
You can play an infinite number of games with a pregenerated PC. Infinite.
Folk have laid out a number of possible reasons why not starting with Char gen might be a reasonable idea for newbies.
Quote from: Simlasa;751853So it follows that a boxed set without chargen IS NOT A WHOLE RPG... right?
Doesn't matter if you can find it online, in a shop, tatooed on the head of a blind prophet... it's not in the box. The box is not complete. That was done on purpose... for some reason that smells more of corporate scheming more than it does concern over confused players.
Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
I think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on. However I've found they are much more receptive to actually playing and then become more interested in chargen once they know the game.
Im fully understanding of peoples views on WoTC due to past record hell I agree most of the time but I do hope that the starter set really is just that, a way to start with 5ed. get to know the rules, try it out and go from there.
Maybe some parallels
i) A mavel superheroes game with every single Marvel superhero ever from Spiderman to Cypher. But no rules for making up your own heroes. The tag line beng you can play any hero in the marvel universe... an rpg or not an rpg?
ii) You download a game for your phone some sort of roleplay thing it's great fun but you get bored with playing Greg the dwarf or the other 5 basic characters after a while. The company lets you download an add on that allows you to create any character you like. The download is free. Crippleware?
iii) You use an art editing suite on your PC for creating maps. It's great but you need some custom brushes for doing mountains. You find out that the company has a downloadable patch that allows you to custom build your own brushes which is usually part of the expensive "professional edition". The patch is free. Are you being ripped off?
Quote from: Benoist;751840completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination
Everyone is so angry!
Rolling dice, picking a few feats and writing it on a piece of paper isn't the end all be all of creating a character. Investing a pregen with a unique personality and history all it's own through play can be just as meaningful and fun as coming up with one from scratch.
Quote from: Raven;751857Everyone is so angry!
To be clear, I am NOT angry at the game. I'll still pick up the three core books (the starter box is out the window, because it's obvious crap), judge for myself, play a few games, and so on. Just like I did with 3e (which I loved) and 4e (which I didn't like).
What really annoys me is those posters who keep taking the counter-point because [NEXT]. As in "I'm already sold to Next, I want it to succeed, so every criticism needs to be squashed before it hatches out."
Well news flash, people: I TOO would like Next to succeed. And me saying stuff like "The starter set is actually crippleware that does not sell the actual core value of role playing games" IS criticism that is aimed at raising awareness about what is so fucking brain dead wrong about this shit, and how it could be improved.
Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still. So FUCK YOU guys. My criticism is ACTUAL criticism, as in, "that's a flaw, right there". After, you guys are all welcome to turn it into some spite war of shit about those mythical "grogtards" you hate so much, but I sure as hell hope that other people are looking, people with actual brains, preferably, people who might have a clue as to what's so fucking wrong here.
Quote from: Benoist;751859To be clear, I am NOT angry at the game. I'll still pick up the three core books (the starter box is out the window, because it's obvious crap), judge for myself, play a few games, and so on. Just like I did with 3e (which I loved) and 4e (which I didn't like).
What really annoys me is those posters who keep taking the counter-point because [NEXT]. As in "I'm already sold to Next, I want it to succeed, so every criticism needs to be squashed before it hatches out."
Well news flash, people: I TOO would like Next to succeed. And me saying stuff like "The starter set is actually crippleware that does not sell the actual core value of role playing games" IS criticism that is aimed at raising awareness about what is so fucking brain dead wrong about this shit, and how it could be improved.
Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still. So FUCK YOU guys. My criticism is ACTUAL criticism, as in, "that's a flaw, right there". After, you guys are all welcome to turn it into some spite war of shit, but I sure as hell hope that other people are looking, who might have a clue as to what's so fucking wrong here.
Are you sure you aren't angry? That sounded angry. Especially the grown up sweary words in capitals.
Quote from: Benoist;751859So FUCK YOU guys.
Wow. Ok then.
Quote from: jibbajibba;751860Are you sure you aren't angry? That sounded angry. Especially the grown up sweary words in capitals.
That's the magic of internet. People believe what they want to believe: where there is emphasis, they see anger. Where there is forcefulness, they see unbound, irrational chaos that-must-be-stopped!
The reality is that people just post what they feel when they feel it, with the emphasis they feel like giving, and people should just take it in, however they feel like. Which includes you totally misinterpreting (or attempting to misinterpret) what I was actually saying.
Quote from: Raven;751863Wow. Ok then.
No problem. I'm just tired of this bullshit. Not YOUR bullshit. The bullshit in general.
Quote from: Benoist;751864That's the magic of internet. People believe what they want to believe: where there is emphasis, they see anger. Where there is forcefulness, they see unbound, irrational chaos that-must-be-stopped!
The reality is that people just post what they feel when they feel it, with the emphasis they feel like giving, and people should just take it in, however they feel like. Which includes you totally misinterpreting (or attempting to misinterpret) what I was actually saying.
Not really. I just thought you sounded angry.
As for misinterpretting what you said ... hmmm...
If I can paraphrase
You aren't angry with the game just people that are defending what we know so far about the starter set.
Despite not knowing all the facts you believe a box set without chargen is "crippleware".
Without your personal input Next wouldn't exist because thanks to you everyone realised 4e was shit (I may be misinterrpretting you a little on the last one :) ).
have I got the gist of it?
Minor point, but it sounds to me like more of an "anti-Grog" then "Yay Next" kind of thing, Ben. The only person here who may qualify as a 5anatic is Sacrosanct, but we won't know for sure until all the books come out. :D
Quote from: Skywalker;751767Make the entry point into the RPG complete and replayable for a decent length of time, especially if its just a matter of $10. Over time, the immediate return you get from impulse buys and by rushing people to buy your $150 Core Set sooner is unlikely to beat the overall return of genuinely hooking players by making that first experience as best as it possibly can and encouraging experienced RPGers to gift that entry point to potential customers.
This fits my experience with Pathfinder - I was a reluctant purchaser, but a 12 session campaign running the Pathfinder Beginner Box prepped me to buy into the Core Rules and the whole game. I've spent hundreds of £ on Pathfinder even though the system is clunky and intimidating. I would not have got into it if not for the Beginner Box.
Don't see what the big deal is about the starter box on a website full of players with decades of experience playing.
From what I've played of 5e, I like it. But liking something has no bearing on good criticism. Starter Boxes shooting themselves in the foot is definitely worth criticism.
Currently L5R CCG fills clan starter decks with TWO rulebooks, one basic, and one advanced. The total (glossy, full ink, chock full of ads) page count is well over 100. The basic rulebook runs a mock play, covering the barest rules, in about 30+ pages. The advanced rulebook covers quite a many rules in its 60+ pages, but is incomplete.
Did you know how they fixed that? They released the full rules online, and both basic and advance rulebook tells the player to refer to the website. Except when it came to the new Ivory block release, they had to push it back months and let everyone play with spoiled proxies, so everyone could try the new cards with the vastly new rules.
The release was screwed up, yet finally arrived. But the online rulebook was not up yet -- for months. Because shit happens. And it all could have been prevented by putting the full rules in the box first...
Any lessons here?
Quote from: Opaopajr;751878From what I've played of 5e, I like it. But liking something has no bearing on good criticism. Starter Boxes shooting themselves in the foot is definitely worth criticism.
Currently L5R CCG fills clan starter decks with TWO rulebooks, one basic, and one advanced. The total (glossy, full ink, chock full of ads) page count is well over 100. The basic rulebook runs a mock play, covering the barest rules, in about 30+ pages. The advanced rulebook covers quite a many rules in its 60+ pages, but is incomplete.
Did you know how they fixed that? They released the full rules online, and both basic and advance rulebook tells the player to refer to the website. Except when it came to the new Ivory block release, they had to push it back months and let everyone play with spoiled proxies, so everyone could try the new cards with the vastly new rules.
But the online rulebook was not up yet -- for months. Because shit happens. And it all could have been prevented by putting the full rules in the box first...
Any lessons here?
Make simple rules - under 10 pages using an exception based rule sets where exceptions are printed on the individual cards ?
The full online rules to MtG are pages long. You don't want to include a 400 page paperback rule book with every starter set..... do you?
As I drink the pain flowing from this thread, I will surely piss out rainbows.
Quote from: jibbajibba;751879Make simple rules - under 10 pages using an exception based rule sets where exceptions are printed on the individual cards ?
The full online rules to MtG are pages long. You don't want to include a 400 page paperback rule book with every starter set..... do you?
CCGs can and have included full rules in their starter boxes for generations now.
Perhaps you are confused and talking about MtG tournament rules, judging, etc. Blocked sets with reminder text and the Stack have very little legacy rules to deal with and are remarkably concise given all these years.
When I was doing demos for new players at conventions (which I did for about a decade), the first thing I did was HAND THEM PREGENS, no way would I normally subject new players to character generation in any game. I have no intention of buying anything 5e, though I will likely play it at some point, so I'm not in any way a 5anatic. I'm sorry, but thinking that a starter set has to have character generation misses the point of it being a STARTER set, especially when they are planning to give away character generation in some manner for those who are beyond "starters" but want to use the rest of the set.
Quote from: jibbajibba;751879Make simple rules - under 10 pages using an exception based rule sets where exceptions are printed on the individual cards ?
Wasn't that the general idea behind this game form?
(CCGs, not RPGs, I mean.)
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751855Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
I think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on. However I've found they are much more receptive to actually playing and then become more interested in chargen once they know the game.
Im fully understanding of peoples views on WoTC due to past record hell I agree most of the time but I do hope that the starter set really is just that, a way to start with 5ed. get to know the rules, try it out and go from there.
I do not agree with this here. One big point of tabletop roleplaying games is that they enable you to choose or build your "genre" character amongst every possible genre archetype (or at least this is what they try to accomplish). This is what is going to hook newbies and newbies need at least to see how this is going to be possible. That they can be the character they want but cant in every other game around. This hooking aspect comes first. Learning the game rules come second.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751782But the holy Mentzer box didn't, right? (I'll admit I could be wrong)
This feels like moving the goalposts here.
But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.
I dont think any of the basics had a seperate map.
Moldvay and Mentzer basics do have maps in the booklet of a dungeon.
It is not till Expert that you got maps. And In both again those were in the book or part of the pack in module.
And that is something the new starter doesnt mention?
Where is the usual module that comes with the starter?
No Borderlands? (Caves of Chaos) Or is that the aformentioned 64 page adventure book?
Quote from: David Johansen;751825That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?
No. It would just indicate that WOTC had some really stupid focus groups or totally misread what results were.
Really unlikely the rules were left out due to some group being too dim witted to comprehend the chargen.
More likely it is budgetary or just some marketing execs pet idea. "Hey! Lets lock off 50% of the cool tech great and mutations into a CCG that we cant even afford to differentiate the card backs on! Great idea huh?" thus 4e D&D GW gets the above CCG.
Now if they go ahead and print off the missing stuff ANYHOW then the whole scheme is pointless. Why not have packed it in if you were printing it out anyhow? If they dont have physical copies out then ok. 25c saved per book. Its odd, but nothing overly new. Annoying to some.
I am actually getting more interested in the starter as this progresses now.
ADDENDUM: It seems in retrospect that leaving out the chargen may have possibly been part of the design goal to make a starter that is pick up and play very fast?
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751855Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
Yes... well... as 'newb to the concept' as a person can be with so many video games using similar elements.
QuoteI think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on.
See, that right there is bullshit. It's only 'overwhelming' if the person teaching them is stressing the stupid optimization angle... the Numberwang crap.
That's NEVER been the approach that I've used and seldom has anyone tried to teach me a game from that angle.
No, what you say is, "Want to play a game of make-believe?", "What sort of character would you like to play as?"... and then you maybe make suggestions of well known characters in popular media that might fit the game setting. Most of the time there's no need.
The 7yr old I played Mermaid Adventures with got the idea right off. She knew precisely what sort of mermaid she wanted to be. Some pre-gen mermaid wouldn't have cut it.
It's just 'make believe'... that's all RPGs are... with a bit of rules to keep people honest and fair. Everyone has already done it as kids. It's not some lofty tower of secret knowledge or exalted pursuit of art. Approach it as 'play' and not as 'rules' or 'mathwank' and EVERYONE gets it.
I remember 4e's CCG power cards... wow was that a terrible idea. Still have the pack I got for free. Somewhere out there are people who were that detached from how the hobby works that they thought shoehorning that idea was good.
I suspect them to have failed upwards into greater management — or politics — because I'm that jaded.
Quote from: Simlasa;751895Yes... well... as 'newb to the concept' as a person can be with so many video games using similar elements.
It bears repeating that the vast,
vast majority of video games with RPG elements that
bother with chargen at all have an extremely quick and easy procedure that is largely automated for the player. One to three choices from a handful of options, all made with simple buttons clicks and less-than-a-paragraph descriptions in non-technical language. No picking skills, no picking powers until you're well into the game, and certainly no extended reading session. The longest part of this process for most people is choosing facial features, an entirely aesthetic activity.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751898It bears repeating that the vast, vast majority of video games with RPG elements that bother with chargen at all have an extremely quick and easy procedure that is largely automated for the player. One to three choices from a handful of options, all made with simple buttons clicks and less-than-a-paragraph descriptions in non-technical language. No picking skills, no picking powers until you're well into the game, and certainly no extended reading session. The longest part of this process for most people is choosing facial features, an entirely aesthetic activity.
Keep in mind that in many CRPGS large chunks of the rules are picked up as you go and learned from reading the item, spell, or skill descriptions as opposed to in the manual. Quite a few CCGs did that later as well. The rules are on the cards as it were.
Quote from: Haffrung;751813Pretty much. I can't for the life of figure out why so many people who obviously want WotC to fail with Next are shedding so many crocodile tears over their 'disappointment' with the Starter Set.
It's not just here, but on RPGNet too (although that's an entirely different group of people who hate WotC for entirely different reasons). Why do people who are clearly emotionally invested in the prospect of WotC failing with Next pretend to have even the barest shred of objective concern about the game's success? Something about D&D seems to tap into an abyss if unreason. I don't see it in any other hobby (though granted, D&D is by far the geekiest of my interests, so maybe this kind of passive-aggressive obsession is not all that peculiar among geeks). A sociologist could have a field day with D&D online edition wars.
I totally agree. Its not like its hard to tell the difference, either, between those who genuinely would like Wizards to succeed but feel great trepidation either based on things they've heard or on having felt betrayed before; and on the other hand those who feign deep concern but are very obviously gleeful with the notion of taking down D&D in general or WoTC in particular.
Quote from: Benoist;751824Quote"
Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game."
And that's the truth.
Nope. That's actually just about the precise opposite of the truth.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751898It bears repeating...
No it doesn't. The question wasn't about whether they were new to 'chargen in TTRPGs' it was 'newb to the concept of RPGs'... the idea of playing a game as a single character with distinct powers and abilities. Any kid whose got a Playstation gets that idea. Anyone who has played 'make believe' gets that idea.
And so what if CRPGs have quick/simple chargen? I'm not going to just plop a new person alone in a room with a book, I'm gonna walk them through the process from the viewpoint of them creating whatever sort of character they'd like to play. Their imagination comes first, the rules interpretation of that comes second.
Quote from: Simlasa;751826I'm not hating any of those things... what I'm hating is the idea of buying a 'starter' set where 'starter' doesn't mean 'start playing' it means 'start figuring out what else you need to play'.
I can buy an actual game for $20... I don't need to shell that out for a preview of a coming attraction.
If it turns out to be a complete game there'll be nothing to hate. Simple enough.
It is by any sane person's definition a complete game.
Quote from: Benoist;751840Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.
Thank you.
Ok, never mind the fact that if you live anywhere but Burkina Faso or the Disputed Zone where internet doesn't exist, you can in fact create characters with this game, and thus have EVERYTHING you need to run any number of campaigns you want to run forever (with 2 MORE levels than the almost relic-like D&D Basic set of old had). Never mind that. Let's take a look at your statement: are you seriously saying "creating a character is the entire fucking point of role playing games"?
So you mean the Denners were totally right? Its been about charop the whole time?
But by that logic shouldn't the "point" then be about having 20000 feats and point-buy options and advancement-trees so that you can map out precisely how your guy will look at level 20 before you've rolled his first stat?
Because if not that, I don't get what you're saying here. The precise argument that many use against how "limited" Old-School D&D character creation is, is what you are now using against the Starter set. They claim that old-school D&D sucks because you can "only ever make one fighter". There's no way to individualize the character, because we all know that individualizing the character is about what mechanical options you get to pick from or generate, right? Is that really what you're saying?
Because I think if I have 5 pregen characters, I hand them out to total newbs at random, and I tell them "Ok, this is a Dwarf Fighter, that's a human cleric, etc. But now you have to decide how they act and what they like and what they think and how they make decisions and how they feel about things.." then THAT, dude, is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of Roleplaying games.
The set-up Wizards has chosen will let a group of kids do exactly that, from the moment they open the box. AND it will also let those kids then go on to create characters, and theoretically keep playing this game forever, with everything they need just in the box, without having to ever buy another product again if they don't want to.
That, to me, is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE OF CRIPPLEWARE. Its something we should be praising WoTC to the fucking rafters for. It means they actually got the point this time, and it also must have been a pretty bold and scary move for them, from their point of view: they're betting on actually giving people a game that gives them everything they need for $19.95 (and yes, typing out a URL, which people are suddenly pretending is an immense hurdle because.. what.. we all know 12 year-olds today have no idea how to use the internet and hate to be online??). Instead of going with the (failed) technique of giving them half-a-game and then demanding they pony up money for the full experience, they're going to give them a full game and then trust that game will be awesome enough the kids will want to pay more for other stuff. That's really what they always should have been doing, but we should still be impressed because its been so very long since they had really tried doing it this way. If they only manage to actually promote the starter set in the right ways and to the young-teen demographic, it might even bring a whole new generation into the hobby.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Simlasa;751905Their imagination comes first, the rules interpretation of that comes second.
There's only so far imagination can take you when you're plowing through race, class, skill, spell, power and equipment selection for four or five people in the same session at the same time.
Four or five people who are new to this style of play and are used to getting into a video game RPG quickly and dealing with the complexity and options later.
Four or five people who are rarely going to bother reading any of the material before the first session in this day and age. Certainly not for something they aren't completely sold on yet.
Quote from: Simlasa;751895No, what you say is, "Want to play a game of make-believe?", "What sort of character would you like to play as?"... and then you maybe make suggestions of well known characters in popular media that might fit the game setting. Most of the time there's no need.
The 7yr old I played Mermaid Adventures with got the idea right off. She knew precisely what sort of mermaid she wanted to be. Some pre-gen mermaid wouldn't have cut it.
It's just 'make believe'... that's all RPGs are... with a bit of rules to keep people honest and fair. Everyone has already done it as kids. It's not some lofty tower of secret knowledge or exalted pursuit of art. Approach it as 'play' and not as 'rules' or 'mathwank' and EVERYONE gets it.
You do realize you just described the exact fucking angle this starter set seems to be promoting right? Lets play make believe, here are a few rules to do it. take these stats already done (pregen) give it a name and personality and go! Last time I checked pregens dont come with personalities or anything, and guess what if they do then just change it, its all imagination right?
when you taught these total non gamers in this way (which is the same way I use by the way) you didnt get glazed looks when they had to look over a feat list to figure out if Frodo had dodge or awarness. Or if Conan should take climb or swim?
Its just in my experience that many people get slightly overwhelmed in chargen in modern systems if they have to chose more than say a name and what they hit stuff with. Not all but many.
I dont even care overmuch one way or the other 5ed wise. I'd like it to succeed so more people can start the hobby with a nice simple in print ruleset. I can also definitely see how it might get fucked up like 4ed.
either way its clear everyone thats lasted this long into the thread has already made up their mind one way or the other.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751655Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity. When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".
:rotfl:
Which the DM then decides to include in the game or not.
Quote from: trechriron;751755Really? I think there's some very interesting and well done things going in with with the OSR. I was not speaking as if "people who make OSR or clones are stealing from D&D". I was speaking more of the miserly cheapness I'm picking up on. Pirating stuff is popular, I believe the people whining are also cheap, therefor I make a joke about them pirating stuff because even the OSR prices (many being free...) are too expensive...
For some, the issue has nothing to do with price. If I decide to get a starter set, it will be because I want one, and I will support my FLGS and buy it at retail price because I appreciate them being there to sell it to me.
The decision to buy in the first place will be based on whether I think the makers of the product actually get what rpgs are all about. If I'm not sold on that, then I don't really want the product at any price. Does that clear anything up?
Quote from: Simlasa;751826I'm not hating any of those things... what I'm hating is the idea of buying a 'starter' set where 'starter' doesn't mean 'start playing' it means 'start figuring out what else you need to play'.
I can buy an actual game for $20... I don't need to shell that out for a preview of a coming attraction.
If it turns out to be a complete game there'll be nothing to hate. Simple enough.
Exactly
Quote from: Haffrung;751846Are you going to make me list all the early TSR D&D modules that included pregens in them? And I guess my buddies who let me make up characters for our last AD&D adventure I ran because they don't have time for that stuff these days have missed the entire point of roleplaying games?
Man, I gotta bookmark this thread for the next time the 'your character isn't what's on his sheet' meme erupts out of the grognard jihad.
A module is a complete roleplaying game?
Check your ears, the shit from your brains is starting to leak out of them.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;751855Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
I think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on. However I've found they are much more receptive to actually playing and then become more interested in chargen once they know the game.
Im fully understanding of peoples views on WoTC due to past record hell I agree most of the time but I do hope that the starter set really is just that, a way to start with 5ed. get to know the rules, try it out and go from there.
Chargen only becomes overwhelming once you start requiring 900 pages of rules to pretend to be an elf.
Moldvay basic covered the whole deal in 64 pages for players AND DMs. If you are convinced that you need dozens of mechanical widgets to make your own character then I see the issue.
How many people completely new to rpgs think that they would need over a dozen dial and switch doodads to make their own character if some more experienced player didn't convince them of that?
It is likewise the same with game rules. All that needs to be explained at the start is that you are playing the role of (insert character name), play begins in the town of (town name), what do you do?
That formula still works for new gamers today.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908That, to me, is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE OF CRIPPLEWARE. Its something we should be praising WoTC to the fucking rafters for. It means they actually got the point this time, and it also must have been a pretty bold and scary move for them, from their point of view: they're betting on actually giving people a game that gives them everything they need for $19.95 (and yes, typing out a URL, which people are suddenly pretending is an immense hurdle because.. what.. we all know 12 year-olds today have no idea how to use the internet and hate to be online??). Instead of going with the (failed) technique of giving them half-a-game and then demanding they pony up money for the full experience, they're going to give them a full game and then trust that game will be awesome enough the kids will want to pay more for other stuff. That's really what they always should have been doing, but we should still be impressed because its been so very long since they had really tried doing it this way. If they only manage to actually promote the starter set in the right ways and to the young-teen demographic, it might even bring a whole new generation into the hobby.
RPGPundit
Okay, but why leave what the game needs to have any considerable replay value only online?
Was it a matter of cost? Was it a matter of not having enough time to write character creation rules for newbies? Was it both? What do you think about exactly this question that many have reasonably asked so far?
It was a combination of reasons, which included maximizing the affordability of the starter set, a conscious choice of making the starter set in-the-box something that would be as straightforward as possible for total newbies to just pick up and play, and also because the FREE online content is not just some kind of afterthought but will be part of the main strategy for D&D overall.
You guys may want to note what Wolfgang Bauer wrote in the interview he gave to the Escapist: the Tyranny of Dragons adventures can be playable using only the Starter Set.
OK let me tell you about my early experience with D&D
basically I had a 1e PHB and and 2e DMG, as well as the 1e monster books and a few of the late 1e 'options' books (Unearthed Arcana etc.)
so, essentially, I had all the chargen rules I could handle but nevertheless I FUCKING HATED D&D (emphasis not rage, honest) for the very simple reason that I had no idea how to structure a good D&D adventure, and so DMing a game was hard and annoying (making dungeons entirely from scratch totally sucks guys, and I am too proud - than and now - for modules). All the 2e DMG has in it is a bunch of random encounter charts and some dumb guidelines, and obv. UE is fucking useless in every particular
(meanwhile I was playing the shit out of Heroquest, in which character gen consisted of picking one of four guys, giving my little dude a name, and then picking an adventure out of the little book)
fast forward to now and I'm DMing a Searchers of the Unknown/OD&D/a bunch of rules I pulled out of my arse mash up, and you know what, this might be the best game I've ever run. The reason why, again, is simple - I've combed the OSR blogosphere and the clones and cobbled together a set of useable, simple random generation rules that make creating dungeons simple and pleasureable
(it's always really hard, when I meet other people who play WotC D&D, not to proselytise about how they should be playing one of the TSR editions instead, because I am totally converted and am overflowing with evangelical zeal)
I'm seeing all this spazzing about chargen, and I can't help but wonder why anyone cares - if WotC provide space for the player's to draw their own picture and name their own adventurer then that's pretty much all the real newbies are going to give a shit about (and if they do give a shit - oh look, free content) - since what will actually keep them coming back is a simple, structured approach to making their own adventures, ie. random fucking tables to help the DM when inspirado is running low. THAT'S replayability! (not sitting around throwing 3d6 at your table over and over again like some kind of dusty robot. The sort you sometimes get in cheap post apocalyptic films, doomed to repeat their programming over and over again no matter how futile it has become)
too long didn't read: adventures rule, characters drool
Quote from: Lord Rocket;751921I'm seeing all this spazzing about chargen, and I can't help but wonder why anyone cares - if WotC provide space for the player's to draw their own picture and name their own adventurer then that's pretty much all the real newbies are going to give a shit about (and if they do give a shit - oh look, free content) - since what will actually keep them coming back is a simple, structured approach to making their own adventures, ie. random fucking tables to help the DM when inspirado is running low. THAT'S replayability! (not sitting around throwing 3d6 at your table over and over again like some kind of dusty robot. The sort you sometimes get in cheap post apocalyptic films, doomed to repeat their programming over and over again no matter how futile it has become)
I been advocating for some time that the way to "fix" tabletop RPGs is to make a better referee. And this including giving tools to help the referee create adventures, campaigns, and settings.
I say tools because guidelines don't cut it. Don't get rid of the advice but you have to back it up with an implemented example or, just like you said, the novice referee will still have no clue.
For example the B/X edition of D&D had a dungeon stocking table, among other things. While starts out with the usual vague guideline approach B/X followed up with a short but practical how-to on how to actually setup a dungeon.
1) Draw a maze with rooms.
2) Use the dungeon stock table generate the general contents of the room
3) Use the other random table to find out specifics.
4) Tweak
5) Run your campaign.
Quote from: jibbajibba;751868Not really. I just thought you sounded angry.
As for misinterpretting what you said ... hmmm...
If I can paraphrase
You aren't angry with the game just people that are defending what we know so far about the starter set.
Despite not knowing all the facts you believe a box set without chargen is "crippleware".
Without your personal input Next wouldn't exist because thanks to you everyone realised 4e was shit (I may be misinterrpretting you a little on the last one :) ).
have I got the gist of it?
You fail to understand that Benoist is the one man in the world who can SAVE D&D AS WE KNOW IT.
Quote from: Benoist;751840Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.
A couple of comments in no particular order.
I been playing around with my own ruleset. One a complete standalone version of my Majestic Wilderlands supplement The other a Fudge/Fate fantasy games again for my Majestic Wilderlands.
I decided that if I would publish either that in addition to the character creation rules I would provide a section with a series of pre-made character ready to run with the character sheets filled out.
This is because of my experience with running a game store campaign with a revolving kaleidoscope of players with varying experience. A couple of years back, I made a set of pre-generated characters with some customization notes on the back. Mainly dealing with equipment because it Swords & Wizardry i.e. OD&D.
I feel now that a properly designed tabletop roleplaying game corebook needs to have pre-gens. That part of it needs to be devoted to ready to run content.
So I have no problem with the Starter Set having pre-generated characters. Provided that the character creation rules (and a few other things like equipment lists and spells) are readily available in another form.
It might even be a smart thing if creature creation rules are part of a marketing booklet. Because the marketing budget is used to make the rules booklet. While the boxed set budget is used to make more content.
Of course if character creation rules are not readily available then your criticism is justified and Wizards rightly deserves the ridicule heaped on them.
As a final comment on this point, in the western world there is going to be a time where internet only distribution is NOT A PROBLEM but the norm. It may not be right now in 2014, but it will be soon. Print is never going away but it is becoming just one option among many. Used when you need it, discarded when you don't.
What this means for this conversation is that until we know all of Wizard's distribution plans we don't have enough information to judge critically.
Are you going to continue to criticize the Starter Set if there is a rack in the stores where the character creation booklets are stored for anybody to pick up?
Are you going to criticize Wizards if they make a freely downloaded 8 to 16 page PDF booklet with B/X style character creation (four classes and associated detail)?
Quote from: RPGPundit;751920You guys may want to note what Wolfgang Bauer wrote in the interview he gave to the Escapist: the Tyranny of Dragons adventures can be playable using only the Starter Set.
Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:
Just rename the box
Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the
Tyranny of Dragons series to
Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...
Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.
Try to view the criticism from that angle.
Quote from: estar;751922I been advocating for some time that the way to "fix" tabletop RPGs is to make a better referee. And this including giving tools to help the referee create adventures, campaigns, and settings.
I say tools because guidelines don't cut it. Don't get rid of the advice but you have to back it up with an implemented example or, just like you said, the novice referee will still have no clue.
For example the B/X edition of D&D had a dungeon stocking table, among other things. While starts out with the usual vague guideline approach B/X followed up with a short but practical how-to on how to actually setup a dungeon.
1) Draw a maze with rooms.
2) Use the dungeon stock table generate the general contents of the room
3) Use the other random table to find out specifics.
4) Tweak
5) Run your campaign.
I've mentioned this before here, maybe even in this thread (can't recall), but WoTC should have some sort of online workshop for teaching people how to DM. Maybe a video series of putting an adventure together and then showing a group playing through it.
Quote from: xech;751917Okay, but why leave what the game needs to have any considerable replay value only online?
Was it a matter of cost? Was it a matter of not having enough time to write character creation rules for newbies? Was it both? What do you think about exactly this question that many have reasonably asked so far?
If they left it out, my guess is it probably had to do with keeping cover cost down. I am still unclear on what will and will not be contained in the set but it sounds like they figured since everyone pretty much has the internet, shifting the character creation to an online tool would be a solid money saver. I can sort of see their point if that is the case, I just feel it is still something you probably ought to include if only for the convenience factor of not needing to go online if you already have the set before you. But it is hardly the end of the world. Starter sets have neverhad much appeal to me. What is going to grow the game is enthusiastic GMs sharing the system with new players. I can do that with a solid PHB.
Quote from: RunningLaser;751929I've mentioned this before here, maybe even in this thread (can't recall), but WoTC should have some sort of online workshop for teaching people how to DM. Maybe a video series of putting an adventure together and then showing a group playing through it.
Sure, but honestly this stuff need to be in the main rulebook. Rather trying to pack it with kewl stuff, take the time to TEACH the players and referees how to make the kewl stuff on their own. Along with specific tools to support this. Don't be afraid to go for the traditional tropes like the Dungeon Maze because a lot of novice gamers need help with that along with the more exotic or complex setups.
I'm afraid I have to agree with Pundit, and I noticed it myself the past couple of days. It's awfully odd that we keep having the same argument that a fighter isn't the same as every other fighter regardless of complex char op rules because it's based on how you play it, but in the past couple days, the same people arguing that are complaining that the starter box isn't charoppy enough.
Strange. It's a Starter Set, so I wouldn't expect anything but the basic classes to be included anyway. And there are rules accessible to anyone, even those who don't get the set, to create these basic characters.
So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled? What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not? More monsters maybe?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;751940So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled? What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not? More monsters maybe?
Because one was seen through the lenses of 12 year old, and the other through the lenses of 55 year old.
I'm a little surprised that this is so controversial, but I guess people here have some very strong opinions about introducing new players to RPGs and I don't think many minds are going to be changed by the discussion.
Personally, as between a boxed set that contains chargen rules - but no free support afterwards, vs. a set with only pregens that does allow for free support afterwards, including not only chargen rules but maybe some additional levels, races, spells, equipment, etc. there's no doubt in my mind that the latter is a better deal - both objectively and in terms of teaching the game and expanding the fanbase.
Could they have done both? Yes, but probably not for the same price, so it really boils down whether the savings translate to greater sales and exposure.
I suspect that it will, and dramatically so, but time will tell.
Comparing this to B/X seems to me a mistake. B/X was its own game, while the hardback AD&D books were for another game. They're theoretically unrelated to each other, so of course B/X had to be "complete," because it wasn't supposed to lead into anything else.
But the 5e starter set and the 5e PHB/DMG/MM all belong to the same game. The idea, to me, seems: you pick up the starter set, get a feel for how the game is played, and then decide whether you like it enough to go the full monty with the Big Three.
Maybe it's me but I don't see any problem here. I also don't see the big deal about the lack of chargen instructions. I've introduced new players to the game, and the last thing I want to do with a complete newbie right at the outset is explain all the nitty gritty details of rolling up a new character. I'd rather say, "Here are a few characters, You pretend to be one as I describe the situations you're in. Tell me what you want to do, and in the process I'll explain to you what all the crap on your sheet means. ... Having fun? Want to make your own guy? Cool, let's download the instructions and get down to it." Again, I see no problem here.
The people talking about using the starter set to train new players and the first step is talking them through chargen ... I think you are missing a trick. You want this to be accessible to a group with no previous RPG experience.
5 10 year olds get together for the first time with the new starter set they look at the cool pics of the pre gens and then pick one then they get started.
After playing for a while they want to make up their own characters but by that point they have downloaded the complete rules meh....
I think a lot of the consternation comes down to some people looking at the starter set through their eyes as a 16 year-old in say 1984, versus the realities of a 16 year-old picking up a game in 2014. People hate change, but there's been a lot of it in thirty years. Computers, Internet access, smartphones, tablets, etc. are ubiquitous now, and a ten year-old would have no difficulty accessing the character generation online. In fact, for them, it would be odd if there wasn't some on-line support for the game.
Quote from: jibbajibba;751945The people talking about using the starter set to train new players and the first step is talking them through chargen.
Which would be the surest way to turn them completely off to the thing. Who in their right mind (having never played D&D) would want to go through all that shit to play a damn game? They can play Clue instead. Take your pick: Col. Mustard, Prof. Plum, or Miss Peacock. Now figure out whodunnit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Ok, never mind the fact that if you live anywhere but Burkina Faso or the Disputed Zone where internet doesn't exist, you can in fact create characters with this game, and thus have EVERYTHING you need to run any number of campaigns you want to run forever (with 2 MORE levels than the almost relic-like D&D Basic set of old had). Never mind that. Let's take a look at your statement: are you seriously saying "creating a character is the entire fucking point of role playing games"?
Getting to identify with your character and consider it your own creation exploring worlds of your own imagination is the fucking point of role playing games. That's what I'm saying. And in a starter set, that means featuring it on both sides of the screen, with elements including practical tools and advice that help DMs make up their own starting dungeon/environment to explore, and for the players to create characters of their own.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908So you mean the Denners were totally right? Its been about charop the whole time?
But by that logic shouldn't the "point" then be about having 20000 feats and point-buy options and advancement-trees so that you can map out precisely how your guy will look at level 20 before you've rolled his first stat?
Nope.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Because if not that, I don't get what you're saying here. The precise argument that many use against how "limited" Old-School D&D character creation is, is what you are now using against the Starter set. They claim that old-school D&D sucks because you can "only ever make one fighter". There's no way to individualize the character, because we all know that individualizing the character is about what mechanical options you get to pick from or generate, right? Is that really what you're saying?
Nope.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Because I think if I have 5 pregen characters, I hand them out to total newbs at random, and I tell them "Ok, this is a Dwarf Fighter, that's a human cleric, etc. But now you have to decide how they act and what they like and what they think and how they make decisions and how they feel about things.." then THAT, dude, is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of Roleplaying games.
Nope. The entire fucking point is that if the player says "Oh I'd like to play a human fighter" he can, and doesn't get answered with "There's only a dwarf fighter in the box, here" but instead "OK roll the dice six times, choose your equipment and let's go!"
Again, the point I'm making is not rocket science. Seriously. What is it with people treating role playing games like it's some sort of consumerist item like a series of movies or comics?
Speaking of which, it reminds me of Stan Lee when he was asked whether electronic comics would replace the printed ones. He answered, paraphrasing: "Well, comics are like tits. They are nice to see on the screen and all, but I'd rather hold them in my hands."
Well. Same thing about a role playing game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908The set-up Wizards has chosen will let a group of kids do exactly that, from the moment they open the box. AND it will also let those kids then go on to create characters, and theoretically keep playing this game forever, with everything they need just in the box, without having to ever buy another product again if they don't want to.
That, to me, is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE OF CRIPPLEWARE.
Now THIS specifically I understand. And I see where you're coming from. BUT, and there's a but here, if the starter set basically contains the first adventure of Tyranny of the Dragons in it with some shoddy advice about how to "build stories" and crap in the boxed set besides, then yeah, I totally start to get this vibe out of it:
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751926Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:
Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...
Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.
Try to view the criticism from that angle.
Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Its something we should be praising WoTC to the fucking rafters for. It means they actually got the point this time, and it also must have been a pretty bold and scary move for them, from their point of view: they're betting on actually giving people a game that gives them everything they need for $19.95 (and yes, typing out a URL, which people are suddenly pretending is an immense hurdle because.. what.. we all know 12 year-olds today have no idea how to use the internet and hate to be online??). Instead of going with the (failed) technique of giving them half-a-game and then demanding they pony up money for the full experience, they're going to give them a full game and then trust that game will be awesome enough the kids will want to pay more for other stuff. That's really what they always should have been doing, but we should still be impressed because its been so very long since they had really tried doing it this way. If they only manage to actually promote the starter set in the right ways and to the young-teen demographic, it might even bring a whole new generation into the hobby.
RPGPundit
Now, I actually went to my wife who has been a teacher for close to 15 years, mostly teaching to the exact age demographics we are talking about, and I asked her very straightforwardly: "If you have a boxed set with pregens and stuff, and in the boxed set it tells you 'go to dnd.com to get the full character generation rules', will they be able to do it with no problem at 10 years old?"
Her answer was: "Yes, about half of them will be able to, and the other half with the help of an adult will be able to as well. But that means that on the dnd.com page you'd have a big red button to download the rules that you could find at all times, that wouldn't be confusing for the kids or parents."
So on that score it seems you guys are right: that it's no big deal now for a kid to just do it on his own. It's still an extra step/click/move to get the full breadth of the game that I think shouldn't have been there in the first place, however, and Wizards has such a TERRIBLE track record on web design and applications that I can't help but hold my breath on this one.
Also, if it requires anything like a subscription, DDI, whatever, it's dead in the water. Fuck no.
Quote from: Benoist;751859To be clear, I am NOT angry at the game. I'll still pick up the three core books (the starter box is out the window, because it's obvious crap), judge for myself, play a few games, and so on. Just like I did with 3e (which I loved) and 4e (which I didn't like).
What really annoys me is those posters who keep taking the counter-point because [NEXT]. As in "I'm already sold to Next, I want it to succeed, so every criticism needs to be squashed before it hatches out."
Well news flash, people: I TOO would like Next to succeed. And me saying stuff like "The starter set is actually crippleware that does not sell the actual core value of role playing games" IS criticism that is aimed at raising awareness about what is so fucking brain dead wrong about this shit, and how it could be improved.
Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still. So FUCK YOU guys. My criticism is ACTUAL criticism, as in, "that's a flaw, right there". After, you guys are all welcome to turn it into some spite war of shit about those mythical "grogtards" you hate so much, but I sure as hell hope that other people are looking, people with actual brains, preferably, people who might have a clue as to what's so fucking wrong here.
What laugh it is hilarious to see how angry you are about a product not even aimed at players. You do know it's the 10 year olds that have the 4G phones in a typical family?
The PHB is 320 pages, 15% of that is going to be online for free, so 48 pages.
On the one hand I can see the argument that to put that 48 page booklet into the Starter Set is going to mess up the "Open and Play" experience. I don't buy it though. It's money, and it's not that WotC couldn't afford to put the box out with the booklet, it's that doing so would have dropped the profit margin on the box probably .5% below what Hasbro demanded.
So, we get online chargen rules, ok, love it or hate it, it is what it is.
I think people are missing something.
If Tyranny of Dragons is playable with only the Starter Set, then that means that the 15% of the PHB that will be online for free isn't just Chargen it's Advancement. If the advancement rules are for free, then that means...
Starter Set plus free download is a complete game with no level limits, which means all the PHB, DMG, MM content really is optional.
This Starter Set plus download might be the most complete boxed set in gaming history. :hmm: Because of chargen isn't in the box, what is? DM stuff according to Mearls, so either the DM stuff is totally oriented around Tyranny of Dragons, or it's beginning DM advice, again making it very useful.
Dragonlance II or the Boxed Set to Rule them All...we'll just have to see.
Pundit, ask Mearls why the hell the Amazon PHB preorder keeps jumping around on price.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751951Starter Set plus free download is a complete game with no level limits, which means all the PHB, DMG, MM content really is optional.
The pictures of the back covers of all the core books confirm this really. All of them say 'if you want more material, check out the PHB, DMG, MM' etc.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751951The PHB is 320 pages, 15% of that is going to be online for free, so 48 pages.
On the one hand I can see the argument that to put that 48 page booklet into the Starter Set is going to mess up the "Open and Play" experience. I don't buy it though. It's money, and it's not that WotC couldn't afford to put the box out with the booklet, it's that doing so would have dropped the profit margin on the box probably .5% below what Hasbro demanded.
So, we get online chargen rules, ok, love it or hate it, it is what it is.
I think people are missing something.
If Tyranny of Dragons is playable with only the Starter Set, then that means that the 15% of the PHB that will be online for free isn't just Chargen it's Advancement. If the advancement rules are for free, then that means...
Starter Set plus free download is a complete game with no level limits, which means all the PHB, DMG, MM content really is optional.
This Starter Set plus download might be the most complete boxed set in gaming history. :hmm:
Took you awhile to figure out that is EXACTLY what Mearls said days ago.
Quote from: Marleycat;751953Took you awhile to figure out that is EXACTLY what Mearls said days ago.
Mearls says a lot and most of it is horseshit if you've been paying attention for a while. You have a link to the tweet (great way to release info btw :rolleyes:) where he says all the advancement rules are in the download?
So far it seems to me that the "basic" version of the game is going to be a total of a $20 investment (less depending on where you get it). That's the starter box + free digital info.
Can't see how this is a bad thing in any way, shape or form.
Quote from: Benoist;751949Her answer was: "Yes, about half of them will be able to, and the other half with the help of an adult will be able to as well. But that means that on the dnd.com page you'd have a big red button to download the rules that you could find at all times, that wouldn't be confusing for the kids, and so on."
The first part sounds a lot like how we learned the game back in the late 1970s so no real loss. As you point out, given Wizards' track record for user interface design that second part is ominous.
Quote from: Benoist;751949Nope. The entire fucking point is that if the player says "Oh I'd like to play a human fighter" he can, and doesn't get answered with "There's only a dwarf fighter in the box, here" but instead "OK roll the dice six times, choose your equipment and let's go!"
The relative degree of freedom versus constraint is the product design decision people can complain about but I dunno whether this is worth going nuclear on. Back in the day if the player said "Oh I'd like to play a gnome cleric" he got answered with "There's only a human cleric and a gnome illusionist in the box, here" and rolling the dice couldn't take you there. Or if the player said "I wanna be a bug man or a talking duck or a lawful werebear or a samurai or a baby dragon."
What's in the box will always be a subset of the real possibilities. The old boxes supported free chargen in a fairly limited race/class set. The new box sounds like it won't support free chargen at all right out of the box, so to speak. Starting player freedom has declined but it was never BTB infinite.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;751956So far it seems to me that the "basic" version of the game is going to be a total of a $20 investment (less depending on where you get it). That's the starter box + free digital info.
Can't see how this is a bad thing in any way, shape or form.
Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?
In this day and age, with 40 years of experience to draw from, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, Mentzer Basic, and especially the Pathfinder Beginners Box to show them how its done; Its was unconscionable to leave it out... IT could have been done, IT should have been done... And yet, they chose not to...
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;751959Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?
In this day and age, with 40 years of experience to draw from, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, Mentzer Basic, and especially the Pathfinder Beginners Box to show them how its done; Its was unconscionable to leave it out... IT could have been done, IT should have been done... And yet, they chose not to...
Maybe because adding that additional information would increase the costs of the set. And if it's available for free, why include it to drive up those costs? Also, how many people would get the starter set and enjoy playing it, with no intention or desire to play the actual full game? I imagine not many. I imagine most would treat it exactly like it is, as something to give people the idea of what the game is all about, and if they enjoy it, they will end up getting the core books.
Quote from: econobus;751958The first part sounds a lot like how we learned the game back in the late 1970s so no real loss. As you point out, given Wizards' track record for user interface design that second part is ominous.
The relative degree of freedom versus constraint is the product design decision people can complain about but I dunno whether this is worth going nuclear on. Back in the day if the player said "Oh I'd like to play a gnome cleric" he got answered with "There's only a human cleric and a gnome illusionist in the box, here" and rolling the dice couldn't take you there. Or if the player said "I wanna be a bug man or a talking duck or a lawful werebear or a samurai or a baby dragon."
What's in the box will always be a subset of the real possibilities. The old boxes supported free chargen in a fairly limited race/class set. The new box sounds like it won't support free chargen at all right out of the box, so to speak. Starting player freedom has declined but it was never BTB infinite.
No you're right, it's not worth going nuclear about. And someone earlier (I forget who) brought up Heroquest and how it came with the warrior, the dwarf, the elf and the wizard. That was a very good point in this discussion (the point that actually made the most sense to me, anyway).
Quote from: RPGPundit;751919It was a combination of reasons, which included maximizing the affordability of the starter set, a conscious choice of making the starter set in-the-box something that would be as straightforward as possible for total newbies to just pick up and play, and also because the FREE online content is not just some kind of afterthought but will be part of the main strategy for D&D overall.
I wonder if we'd be having these arguments if the "Starter Set" was called a "Pick-Up-and-Play Pack". Probably not.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;751940Strange. It's a Starter Set, so I wouldn't expect anything but the basic classes to be included anyway.
So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled? What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not?
The way I understand the criticism (and I might be wrong) is this:
B/X and Mentzer were both intro sets and complete games. The first Basic set was a starter set for AD&D1, one that was so "complete" that players use that as basis for their games even today. Same for Mentzer.
(I would argue that without Expert, and without the carrot of more levels and rules dangling in front of consumers, one could play many many campaigns with either Basic set, making lots of different characters.
Characters in older D&D were not that different from pre-gens. There was not very much to choose (for non-casters, anyway) as special skills came automatically with level. It all came down to your equipment (which weapon and armor?) and the variance that your stat bonuses gave (which felt greater than it really was, IMO, and served more how you pictured your dude in the head).
So, if the Next Starter included four basic classes and four basic races, advancement to level 3 (or even 5!), and rules how to roll your stats, all would be well. That's more than B/X and Mentzer had.
And that's what Pathfinder Beginner basically has (with pre-selected feats for level advancement, just like in the old days). But PF has even more. It
also has Pre-Gens so that you can start
immediately.
That's enough to play full campaigns, if you don't want to upgrade to full PF. (But of course you want, anyway. The carrot of more levels and rules smells nicely.)
It is possible to present that kind of info in the page count that the Next Starter Set has. It's all a question of
how much info and
how to present it.
It's a question of how Next's "Pre-Gens" are presented. Are they named Iconics with fixed stats? (Dragonlance all over again...) Or are they character sheets pre-filled with class/race specific info, and stats left blank?
Even the Iconic Pre-Gens from the Pathfinder Beginner box are customizable - you still get to choose skills!
That's the difference between Tanis and a character template from Star Wars d6. But in Star Wars it was enough to make a player feel that this character was
his. And I guess it would be enough in Next.
What people get so riled up against is how close Next feels to be from the platonic ideal of a Starter Set that combines the best parts of the old world and today (and even more - the 15% PHB download is an awesome bonus).
But the
physical product of the Starter Box should feel as complete as at least B/X. On its own, without stuff to download. Without a stack of ugly printouts I'd have to add.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;751959Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?
No, because that free 15% PHB is much much more than needed. It's a very generous freebie, but it's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the 4 pages - or maybe just 4 sentences! - that make the Pre-Gens customizable.
And for all we know, that might still be the case! WotC just doesn't want to call that "character creation". (But for old schoolers, it would absolutely be!)
Maybe WotC is shooting themselves in the foot with their information policy, as always...
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751967And for all we know, that might still be the case! WotC just doesn't want to call that "character creation". (But for old schoolers, it would absolutely be!)
Maybe WotC is shooting themselves in the foot with their information policy, as always...
Now that also IS a good point. It's totally possible that customization is discussed in the boxed set if only with a few sentences, and WotC is putting its foot in its mouth again.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751967And for all we know, that might still be the case! WotC just doesn't want to call that "character creation". (But for old schoolers, it would absolutely be!)
That's a good point. They're trying to communicate with entirely different camps simultaneously. What the OSR thinks of as chargen isn't even in the same galaxy as what a 3e or 4e person thinks of.
Quote from: Benoist;751968Now that also IS a good point. It's totally possible that customization is discussed in the boxed set if only with a few sentences, and WotC is putting its foot in its mouth again.
It's a point that was brought up very early in the life cycle of these three threads. We really don't have enough information to make the jump-off-the-cliff conclusion you've drawn, and won't until it's released or WotC communicates a great deal more information a great deal more clearly.
I write user documentation for a living, and part of tailoring something for a new user is not including any content that will confuse him or that he won't need until later. If you're targeting complete newbs, there is a real downside to including both pregens and character generation.
Quote from: Bobloblah;751974It's a point that was brought up very early in the life cycle of these three threads. We really don't have enough information to make the jump-off-the-cliff conclusion you've drawn, and won't until it's released or WotC communicates a great deal more information a great deal more clearly.
I think these threads have proven pretty conclusively that a sizeable contingent is ready to jump off the cliff at the first hint of minor inconvenience, so they might as well jump now before
real issues like the ruleset come around and send them flying anyway.
I'm not even being nasty when I say that, as I've cliff jumped over trivial things too in my time. Fun and aesthetic satisfaction are fragile things and can afford to be in a world that offers so many solid alternatives.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;751959Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?
In this day and age, with 40 years of experience to draw from, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, Mentzer Basic, and especially the Pathfinder Beginners Box to show them how its done; Its was unconscionable to leave it out... IT could have been done, IT should have been done... And yet, they chose not to...
Here's the thing. People are looking at this like it's a Basic Set. But it's not
that. It's something completely different.
Here's what we know:
- Mearls said that that character generation will be available for the Starter Set.
- Related to this, approximately 15% of the PHB (so 48 out of 320 pages), the section concerning "basic" character generation will be available as a free PDF.
- Mearls also said that people will be able to run campaigns with just the PHB.
- Mearls has said there's a step between the Starter Set and the Big 3.
So, the trending theory (which I guess Pundit can neither confirm nor deny) is that the step between the Starter Set and the Big 3 is the Basic Rules -- provided for free, online, in PDF format. One poster on EN World broke it down like this:
15% of the PHB (probably released around the same time as the Starter Set)
15% of the MM (probably released around the same time as the PHB)
15% of the DMG (probably released around the same time as the PHB)
Since each book is going to be in the range of 320 pages, that'd be 48*3 = 144 pages, give or take, very close to the 128 pages of B/X. That's your Basic Set. Want to give someone the equivalent of B/X? Send them the URL, or have the PDFs printed out and bound at Kinkos. If they're a tablet user, they're totally set. If you've got someone you think will get into D&D, and enjoy making characters, and won't get put off with reading 90-some pages before getting into the game (we'll stipulate that they won't need to read through all the MM pages), this is what you point them to.
The Starter Set, then, works like a pre-Basic Set. It tries to recreate the experience of trying out the game with a pre-gen with an existing group. You've got some quick start rules, you've got some pre-gens, you've got an adventure that last 8-10 sessions. The game guides you to where the free Basic Rules are if you like what you've seen.
Then the PHB, MM, and DMG all expand on this with more options for characters and campaigns. And you don't have to pay for duplicated material! So you have a smooth on-ramp into the hobby, even if you never played before, and don't have an experienced group. And you can get into the game at just the level of commitment you want. Just want to play your pre-gen? Good to go. Want to create your own? Free chargen, when you decide you want it. Want even more options? PHB. Want to DM? Try out the Starter Set. Want some more options? Free rules expansion is available. Want to go whole hawg? Get the DMG and MM.
So, in a sense, sure, the Starter Set makes a bad Basic Set, because it wasn't designed to be a Basic Set. But the
actual Basic Set is even cooler than past Basic Sets because it's more like a free B/X that you can expand at your leisure.
A lot of this is still speculation, but it's a theory that covers all the facts.
Check it! I just found pics of the pre-gens!
(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1176530_md.jpg)
(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1739704_md.jpg)
(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2001717.png)
But, seriously, and without any more disguised 4e hate, I'm disappointed that the Starter Set is not the Basic Set. I think I was hoping/expected THE complete game 1-5, not _A_ complete game.
IIRC, at one point the first few levels in 5e were throw away, like "kill 1 monster and gain a level" sorts of things. Is that still the case?
EDIT: I'm sure its being done this way to get in to WalMart and the other big box stores. Mainsteam is Revenue stream..
Quote from: bryce0lynch;751981Check it! I just found pics of the pre-gens!
I recognize the second set as Heroquest and the third set as Descent Second Edition. What is the first set?
I remember when D&D4 was in the ramp up to release I was on the #RPGNET channel and said I had found a picture of the PHB cover. Then I linked everyone to some promotional art for Final Fantasy: Crisis Core. I got a few good natured fuck yous from that one. :)
Quote from: Gabriel2;751983I recognize the second set as Heroquest and the third set as Descent Second Edition. What is the first set?
IIRC Warhammer Quest.
Heh Warhammer Quest in French no less. Damn I miss that game. The iPad one kicks ass but I still miss the original, have most of the minis too. I wish Games Workshop would realize they could make more money by re-releasing old stuff from back when they were worth something.
@ Iosue:
Not so sure about your release date projections, but otherwise I think you nailed it.
Quote from: CRKrueger;751985Heh Warhammer Quest in French no less. Damn I miss that game. The iPad one kicks ass but I still miss the original, have most of the minis too. I wish Games Workshop would realize they could make more money by re-releasing old stuff from back when they were worth something.
Yeah, good stuff, especially when you use the extra rules and mechanics from the campaign book. It was also back when the Warhammer universes still allowed cartoony colorful art that lightened the brutality of the premise. It's all too serious and
brownish-black now.
Quote from: Iosue;75197815% of the PHB (probably released around the same time as the Starter Set)
15% of the MM (probably released around the same time as the PHB)
15% of the DMG (probably released around the same time as the PHB)
that'd be 48*3 = 144 pages, give or take, very close to the 128 pages of B/X. That's your Basic Set.
So, in a sense, sure, the Starter Set makes a bad Basic Set, because it wasn't designed to be a Basic Set. But the actual Basic Set is even cooler than past Basic Sets because it's more like a free B/X that you can expand at your leisure.
... and then the lamentation would start.
"Why can't we have this Basic Set as a print product?"
"This is so much better than the so-called 'full game'!"
But at least it would explain why we never got a reprint of the Cyclopedia ...
While I and others have used the Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer Basic sets as examples, I never expected a full game like that now.
I also repeatedly used the Pathfinder's Beginner's Box as an example of a modern Starter set. IT set a precedent for how Starter Sets should be. Sadly, neither WoTC (with 5e) or Fantasy Flight Games (Edge of the Empire) seemed to even care that even exists and shows without a doubt how to do it right...
If you cannot match the content, quality, or value per dollar of the Pathfinder's Beginner's Box then you are fucking doing it wrong...
I'm not even a fan of 3.x/Pathfinder, but the PBB is one of the best RPG products to ever be released in the 40 years of RPGs.
I'm not going to waste money on a piece of shit 5e starter set when the developers cant even be bothered to TRY and do it fucking right...
Quote from: Benoist;751859To be clear, I am NOT angry
I'm glad. We wouldn't like you when you're angry.
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751966I wonder if we'd be having these arguments if the "Starter Set" was called a "Pick-Up-and-Play Pack". Probably not.
The whole key is in the word
STARTER in that it is not
BEGINNER it really is that simple. Because they imply two totally different things.
Quote from: Benoist;751949Nope. The entire fucking point is that if the player says "Oh I'd like to play a human fighter" he can, and doesn't get answered with "There's only a dwarf fighter in the box, here" but instead "OK roll the dice six times, choose your equipment and let's go!"
No doubt that's something that will happen, but if you're talking about a group that is all beginners (including the GM) there's no reason they'll expect that to happen right off the bat. I think that when they're still learning what the hell they're doing because one of their uncles got them the Starter set for their birthday, they will be more than fine with picking one of the pregens. For right after that, when they start thinking about making different characters, that will be available to them.
QuoteAgain, the point I'm making is not rocket science. Seriously. What is it with people treating role playing games like it's some sort of consumerist item like a series of movies or comics?
Seriously, dude? We're talking about D&D here, and WoTC. D&D has ALWAYS been a "consumerist item". Whether it was TSR or WoTC, it has ALWAYS been about making money for the company that produces it. And that's a good thing, because the hobby needs a giant capable of bringing the hobby to new people.
My criticism isn't some kind of idealist/socialist utopian vision of why can't WoTC just make the game out of the goodness of their hearts with no expectation of profit; my criticism is that for a very long time D&D's owners have been failing to be effective enough at doing what they're supposed to be doing!
I want them to be good enough at being "consumerist" that they end up recruiting thousands and thousands of new gamers who'll love D&D.
QuoteNow, I actually went to my wife who has been a teacher for close to 15 years, mostly teaching to the exact age demographics we are talking about, and I asked her very straightforwardly: "If you have a boxed set with pregens and stuff, and in the boxed set it tells you 'go to dnd.com to get the full character generation rules', will they be able to do it with no problem at 10 years old?"
Her answer was: "Yes, about half of them will be able to, and the other half with the help of an adult will be able to as well. But that means that on the dnd.com page you'd have a big red button to download the rules that you could find at all times, that wouldn't be confusing for the kids or parents."
Having long since stopped being a kid myself, I didn't have much experience firsthand with what the kids are up to these days; until this past year when I got close to a very good friend's sons (or rather, they got close to me, because they, like their dad, love RPGs). I was blown away and my perspective got seriously changed (or certain other perspectives confirmed) by seeing all kinds of first-hand evidence of what they're like and what they do, and how some things that are big deal to people from my generation are not at all for theirs.
The 10 year old kid (the younger of the two) is playing a Wizard in my DCC game and his favorite spell, Magic Missile, came with the 'mercurial magic' effect that causes him to change gender whenever he casts it. Now, thinking back to my own childhood, I was expecting him to get grossed out or weirded out by that, to either be embarrassed (and either cast the spell less often or go out of his way to always cast it twice so as to get back to his male gender), or to end up being all goofy about it and making childish fun of his character turning into a girl. But it didn't affect him at all. For him, it was no big deal whatsoever.
As for technology, when he's sitting next to me he immediately (and without so much as asking permission) starts fiddling with my tablet, doing pretty much everything with it and almost intuitively getting it all. I use the Crawler app quite a lot for DCC, and he figured out every nook and cranny of the program in seconds.
I'm quite sure that if I gave him the starter set unsupervised, he'd be downloading the PDF on his netbook in seconds and be using it without the slightest qualm or any of the aesthetic concerns any of us older folk feel about the difference between PDFs and books. For him, its just something that's always been part of his life.
QuoteSo on that score it seems you guys are right: that it's no big deal now for a kid to just do it on his own. It's still an extra step/click/move to get the full breadth of the game that I think shouldn't have been there in the first place, however, and Wizards has such a TERRIBLE track record on web design and applications that I can't help but hold my breath on this one.
I can't absolutely confirm it but what I've heard so far suggests they're trying to keep things very simple this time.
RPGPundit
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;752041I'm not going to waste money on a piece of shit 5e starter set when the developers cant even be bothered to TRY and do it fucking right...
See, I find this extremist compared to some of the other objections here, especially since we haven't seen the finished product and the Pundit says there's still more to be revealed.
I mean, all of this is highly subjective of course, but there's "George Lucas made some very poor decisions in this film despite his best intentions" subjective and there's "If Disney doesn't use any muppet practical effects in
Star Wars VII then it has effectively shat on my childhood out of incompetent laziness" subjective.
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;752041... Sadly, neither WoTC (with 5e) or Fantasy Flight Games (Edge of the Empire) seemed to even care that even exists and shows without a doubt how to do it right...
While we're on the subject of Star Wars, does anyone know how the Edge of the Empire starter did, financially and critically?
Quote from: One Horse Town;751952The pictures of the back covers of all the core books confirm this really. All of them say 'if you want more material, check out the PHB, DMG, MM' etc.
Good catch!
Quote from: Mistwell;752042I'm glad. We wouldn't like you when you're angry.
Nope. You would not like me angry.
Quote from: Marleycat;752049The whole key is in the word STARTER in that it is not BEGINNER it really is that simple. Because they imply two totally different things.
What makes you think the difference in meaning there is so obvious... particularly to these hypothetical (and alternatingly stupid/brilliant) newcomers? "Lil Timmy can figure out any device I put in front of him, but sadly would be stymied into a coma by full chargen rules in an RPG."
Quote from: Benoist;752069Nope. You would not like me angry.
It was an Incredible Hulk reference, in case that was unclear.
Or, if you prefer, the Credible Hulk:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-C7bqGPLp5lA/UQAW-iWU2EI/AAAAAAAAba8/9M3LzFAI8C4/s640/You+wouldn't+like+me+when+I'm+angry.jpg)
Quote from: Simlasa;752070What makes you think the difference in meaning there is so obvious... particularly to these hypothetical (and alternatingly stupid/brilliant) newcomers? "Lil Timmy can figure out any device I put in front of him, but sadly would be stymied into a coma by full chargen rules in an RPG."
Because starter box aimed at a DM means play NOW with no explicit limits. A beginner box aimed at everyone means you can play this limited version.
Quote from: Marleycat;752079Because starter box aimed at a DM means play NOW with no explicit limits. A beginner box aimed at everyone means you can play this limited version.
So your saying that a box with chargen is more limited than one without?
Uh... because whatever happens with the 'secret' from wotc your comment doesn't seem quite right.
Wouldn't it be nice to see a professionally printed Basic D&D book right next to the starter set in Target? One that might even fit in the Starter box.
144 pgs, $20
I would pay $40 for an updated Mentzer Basic Box Set using modern rules.
Oh, and Fuck Kinkos/Staples/Office Max and pdf printing. None of those assholes can figure the difference between printing actual size or printing to fit.
Ben is right and everyone seems dismiss his concerns because WOTC is offering 15% of their PH (Basic Character creation) presumably for free on their site. But we're expected to print this shit out on our own? And seriously, for us old bastards that like to use our hands to caress tits instead of stare at Photoshopped balloons, How about WOTC use their economy of scale and do the printing for us. You know, take pride in being the flagship RPG company. Instead of expecting me to introduce people to RPGs with my ghetto-bound, double-sided, laser-printed (or expensive color-inkjetted) 20lb crap paper printout of the character creation rules. I expect that from the hobbists in the OSR, but WOTC, seriously.
I bought Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy Role-playing Game for $5 on Amazon. I heard it was sold at cost, but after reading, it's well worth $20 or more. Seriously WOTC. I so want 5e to succeed, and I am sure I'm in an overly pissy mood about the Starter set not being the Basic set that I want, but my vision seems so close, so within reach that I am baffled as to why it doesn't seem to be the way this new D&D is rolling out.
Quote from: JasperAK;752094I would pay $40 for an updated Mentzer Basic Box Set using modern rules.
See, that's what I was hoping this boxed set would be. I've got no real burning interest in D&D but a basic all-in-one box that would get me up to date and playable on modern D&D grabbed my interest. I've got zero interest beyond that though, I'm not hot to buy the $50 corebooks.
I was interested, curious... and now I'm not. Oh well.
Quote from: Simlasa;752108See, that's what I was hoping this boxed set would be. I've got no real burning interest in D&D but a basic all-in-one box that would get me up to date and playable on modern D&D grabbed my interest. I've got zero interest beyond that though, I'm not hot to buy the $50 corebooks.
I was interested, curious... and now I'm not. Oh well.
40 bucks? To get something for 20 bucks and download a PDF? Get real and fuck off. The former I can't even sniff the latter I can afford. If I cared.
Key is.... I don't care because I'M A PLAYER. I already have the rules as do anyone I care about. Let the DM sweat the details.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;751916Chargen only becomes overwhelming once you start requiring 900 pages of rules to pretend to be an elf.
Moldvay basic covered the whole deal in 64 pages for players AND DMs. If you are convinced that you need dozens of mechanical widgets to make your own character then I see the issue.
How many people completely new to rpgs think that they would need over a dozen dial and switch doodads to make their own character if some more experienced player didn't convince them of that?
It is likewise the same with game rules. All that needs to be explained at the start is that you are playing the role of (insert character name), play begins in the town of (town name), what do you do?
That formula still works for new gamers today.
So... Im pretty sure we are actually in agreement then? I love Moldvay for the reasons you just listed, thats why I'm hoping the new edition will allow for that style of play. My hope is that there will be a current in print rule set that supports that sort of play.
Its funny I think most of the people in this and similar threads for the most part agree with each other when it comes to rules style and have just gotten themselves mizzled over word definitions and such.
I think something we can all agree on though is that Heroquest was and still is awesome.
Lots of very very angry grown men in this thread. Some don't want their precious childhood conceptions of D&D messed with, others don't like D&D but love a good bitch fest. Thing is none of you are the target audience. The box set is for the kids new to D&D. A simple game you can play right out of the box is the order of the day. What will make of break this is the execution of what is inside, not the fact that chargen rules aren't.
Honestly. We are getting precious about downloading some extra content? Geez I remember playing D&D with a badly photocopied 1E PHB. The key is igniting interest. The rest takes care of itself.
Besides I bet that there will be a free app for chargen.
Quote from: Marleycat;75211140 bucks? To get something for 20 bucks and download a PDF? Get real and fuck off.
No goofy, not the $40 part... the content part.
Quote from: Marleycat;75211140 bucks? To get something for 20 bucks and download a PDF? Get real and fuck off. The former I can't even sniff the latter I can afford. If I cared.
Key is.... I don't care because I'M A PLAYER. I already have the rules as do anyone I care about. Let the DM sweat the details.
I dislike PDFs despite the lower cost and ownership of a printer. But that doesn't mean a combination strategy that has online components won't work.
But the best thing is to lower the barrier to having fun as quickly as possible. A huge tome, like Pathfinder, takes a long time to master if you have never played before. A starter set should focus on the low barriers to entry, and it sounds like this really is the focus.
Quote from: Fiasco;752122Lots of very very angry grown men in this thread. Some don't want their precious childhood conceptions of D&D messed with, others don't like D&D but love a good bitch fest. Thing is none of you are the target audience. The box set is for the kids new to D&D. A simple game you can play right out of the box is the order of the day. What will make of break this is the execution of what is inside, not the fact that chargen rules aren't.
Honestly. We are getting precious about downloading some extra content? Geez I remember playing D&D with a badly photocopied 1E PHB. The key is igniting interest. The rest takes care of itself.
Besides I bet that there will be a free app for chargen.
Logic and realism gets in the way of Ben's ranting that's no good don't you understand?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751926Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:
Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...
Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.
Try to view the criticism from that angle.
Scary thing is, Tyranny might be the remnant of the old proposed Dragonlance reboot.
But if the boxed set is like the 1st Next playtest then what you'll get is a statted and geared out character with no name essentially. Kinda like a HeroQuest or Warhammer Quest character. Add name and go.
Quote from: dar;752088So your saying that a box with chargen is more limited than one without?
Uh... because whatever happens with the 'secret' from wotc your comment doesn't seem quite right.
No, I am saying getting 15% of the PHB free is way more than a line or two saying 4d6 drop 1. Odds are you will get advancement rules in the PDF. Of which any 8 year old with a phone understands better than me or you.
Again in the average family it's the kids that have the cutting edge phones not the parents. I know this as fact because I worked in the cell phone insurance industry for several years.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;751940So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled? What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not? More monsters maybe?
BX had that little extra bit of chargen. Small as it was. You learned the whole game right there. Neet and simple.
For some it just feels wrong to leave that element out of a game thats supposed to teach you how to play the game.
Which happens to be my gut feeling too. It just feels wrong as a player, a GM, a game designer, and even a really small time publisher.
But.
I was around for the 1st Next playtest and still have said 1st playtest and the new Starter is sounding like just about
EXACTLY what you were handed.
5 pregen characters that you put a name on. They could go to level 3. All the class info was only on the character sheet.
The DM section was all of 9 pages. The 34 page monster section covered just the monsters found in the module. Which happened to be the re-named Keep on the Borderlands sans the actual Keep. Hence why it is just called Caves of Chaos I guess.
The 31 page player section was 15 pages on how to do checks and use stats, exploration, combat, damage, healing, effects and then 7 on equipment and 9 on magic with some spells level 0-2. And the stats section took up 3 pages on stats. What the modifiers are and what each stat specifically does. What it is commonly checked for, what saves it effects, and for INT/WIS/CHA that it may effect certain classes spells. CON replaced spells with HP, DEX with Ranged attacks, AC and Initiative. STR with Melee attacks and Carrying.
Ditch some of the player info section or shuffle it to the DM or character sheet, move the monster info into the DM section or the module and you are getting very close to the page count of the Starter.
I am ok with the chargen stuff being off on a website. I might not think it was the best of ideas. But if it works it works.
Quote from: RPGPundit;752054No doubt that's something that will happen, but if you're talking about a group that is all beginners (including the GM) there's no reason they'll expect that to happen right off the bat. I think that when they're still learning what the hell they're doing because one of their uncles got them the Starter set for their birthday, they will be more than fine with picking one of the pregens. For right after that, when they start thinking about making different characters, that will be available to them.
I could see one potential minor problem there.
It is setting the stage for a certain mindset of playstyle right out the gate.
"You need these 4 classes." Or "You need these classes and they should be these races."
Very Minor. But potentially vexing later down the line when you have to wean them off that idea.
Now if they give out in the starter multiple sheets of each pregen then that might negate the issue.
I started roleplaying back in 1978 with nothing more than a copy of Judges Guild's Ready Ref Sheets, a set of dice, and third hand advice on what role playing was. Oh and the unbounded enthusiasm of youth. I had a hoot.
Looks to me that the starter set (plus the ubiquity of the Internet) will do just fine for its purpose.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751926Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:
Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...
Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.
Try to view the criticism from that angle.
Epic post. Troll Pundit by name dropping Dragonlance.
Sweet!
The 4e red box came with instructions for downloading a free adventure pdf. Maybe they used the results from that and decided that enough people who bought the red box also downloaded the pdf and figured the gimmick was worth trying again.
Quote from: Benoist;751859Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still.
Maybe that's their problem - you/everyone else that thought 4E was a shitty RPG were vocal enough to get it cancelled in record time.
I'm reasonably sure 4e failed because it was a poor replacement for D&D, not because some guys were loud about it on the internet.
Yeah, but the whiners need to blame someone...
Quote from: kythri;752215Yeah, but the whiners need to blame someone...
and the other whiners need to take credit :-P
Quote from: RPGPundit;751919It was a combination of reasons, which included maximizing the affordability of the starter set, a conscious choice of making the starter set in-the-box something that would be as straightforward as possible for total newbies to just pick up and play, and also because the FREE online content is not just some kind of afterthought but will be part of the main strategy for D&D overall.
I don't disagree with you Pundit in general but I think maybe, just maybe (and only time will tell which of us is righter) that they might be throwing away dollars to save pennies: the starter set with those chargen rules
included put in a retail space like Target or Wal-Mart or even Toys-R-Us would, to my mind, have been ideal.
Now if better brains than yours or mine looked at that and said "That's not a viable area for us to try and compete for shelf space in," well, obviously what I said doesn't apply, I just wonder (and none of us will ever know short of getting an NDA'd job at WotC/Hasbro marketing) if they looked at that angle.
My concern over the way the Starter Set is being offered comes from there, not from a desire to see WotC stumble and fall (quite the opposite, and I'll say why momentarily), but from a place where I'm worried that this wasn't in fact a missed opportunity. Now they
may still target those retail spaces! They may put the product there, it is, of course, advertised as a game-in-a-box, ready to play thing, and it is. Something in the box that says "Hey if you want to make your
own characters and have your
own adventures, go here...www.wizards.com/dnd/etcetera" just might work. Up to level 5 could be endless hours of gaming for some folks without ever thinking about "Oh well I want a new character" etc.
And the point, regarding me and WotC and why I don't want to see them fall is they complete 180' they did to get to where they are now: all old editions re-released. PDFs re-released. 4e defenestrated, and essentially what amounts to 5e: The Apology Edition being released, something stripped
utterly of 4e's ... 4e-ness, and instead a game that looks a lot like RC + Moldvay Basic + some 3e-stuff (inverted armor classes, feats - although one can argue I think that feats have always been with D&D and the term itself and hard codification and feat trees came with 3e).
So...yeah.
I am sure Hasbro's CEO wept every night as he read oldschool blogs. He was probably literally shaking from anger over being misunderstood by grognards.
Quote from: rincewind1;752222i am sure hasbro's ceo wept every night as he read oldschool blogs. He was probably literally shaking from anger over being misunderstood by grognards.
trigger warning: Gygax
my preferred pronouns are: Ken/kin/kender. Respect them. It's not my job to educate you, cisgrog!
Quote from: thedungeondelver;752223trigger warning: Gygax
my preferred pronouns are: Ken/kin/kender. Respect them. It's not my job to educate you, cisgrog!
After seeing "transnigger", this isn't even funny anymore ;).
WotC obviously wants the Grognard's money back, and it's cool - I like the old D&D much more than I like 4e. But it wasn't the quality of old D&D that brought 4e down, it was the lack of qualities in 4e.
To say that RPGsite, K&K or Dragonsfoot brought down 4e is foolish as hell, because people who are the target, who are interested in 4e don't go to those places, so they'll be not persuaded by them to stop buying 4e.
Quote from: Rincewind1;752224After seeing "transnigger", this isn't even funny anymore ;).
WotC obviously wants the Grognard's money back, and it's cool - I like the old D&D much more than I like 4e. But it wasn't the quality of old D&D that brought 4e down, it was the lack of qualities in 4e.
To say that RPGsite, K&K or Dragonsfoot brought down 4e is foolish as hell, because people who are the target, who are interested in 4e don't go to those places, so they'll be not persuaded by them to stop buying 4e.
Yeah, in spite of everything (and things I've said) I am inclined to agree. Edsel flopping has little to do with the sex appeal of a deSoto.
cisgrog
I love it. And I'm stealing it :-)
Quote from: Raven;752212I'm reasonably sure 4e failed because it was a poor replacement for D&D, not because some guys were loud about it on the internet.
+1
If people bought it and said, "wow, this is good D&D," it would now be near the end of its cycle instead of already dead and buried.
4e is a really cool game that has almost nothing to do with D&D.
BTW, did everyone suddenly forget how to make a character for D&D? The six ability scores, race, class, armor, weapons, hit points, skills/spells/other advantages, alignment, and a name. Even if people forget that recipe, I'm sure it will be given passing mention in the starter box. Plus, the pre-generated PCs are all the guidance one needs - unless you're a total noob, in which case, just use the pre-gens!
I'm glad there's a cool introductory adventure included. That's the tricky part. Generating a character is easy.
VS
Quote from: kythri;752195Maybe that's their problem - you/everyone else that thought 4E was a shitty RPG were vocal enough to get it cancelled in record time.
It would have been phased out no matter due to the 5 year plan. The negative reaction just accelerated the process. A negative reaction WOTC themselves fostered right out the gate. But it would have been replaced around now no matter.
Quote from: Omega;752245It would have been phased out no matter due to the 5 year plan. The negative reaction just accelerated the process. A negative reaction WOTC themselves fostered right out the gate. But it would have been replaced around now no matter.
Not really. Their intention was to make Essentials evergreen products and cashing in on their DDI investment for as long as possible. But 4e was a highly inefficient roleplaying game by its design principles.
Simplest Questions: Will it be Fun?
Will gamers want to buy "D&D" again?
Those are the biggest two questions.
...Maybe I should start a thread....
- Ed C.
Quote from: kythri;752195Maybe that's their problem - you/everyone else that thought 4E was a shitty RPG were vocal enough to get it cancelled in record time.
I for one never thought 4e was a shitty RPG. A shitty Dungeons & Dragons yes but not a shitty game. If the OSR contributed meaningfully to 4e demise it is only because by making the history of D&D more accessible.
how soon everyone forgets. Remember when the PDF's came down? Remember WotC removing 'free' pdf's that had been on their site for ages and ages? Remember when the management decided to create 4e instead of going with something more like what D&D had been in earlier iterations?
A starter set with chargen in it on the shelves means that it'll always be a part of it. A pdf means that a policy decision could disappear it tomorrow, at least legitimate copies.
Either way, a lame starter set might not mean much to the corporation. 3rd edition was a success despite a poor starter set. Maybe that's all that matters to them. Not to me.
I had a discussion last night. If any other company turned round and said that their strategy going forward would involve supporting real world products with online support to expand and enrich the consumer experience, everyone would be patting them on the back. Especially if the company released this stuff for free.
OPP/WW starter PDFs, Eclipse Phase "Hack packs" of PDFs, art work, etc etc, FFE (Marc Miller) releases a big old CD-Rom full of stuff), and so on.
One moment "the community" is going "ooh, I like PDFs they are so good for RPGs and worth the money. I like reading on tablets. I like getting things online blah blah blah."
The next they (the community of consumers) are crucifying WoTC for releasing a product that has not been seen yet. Through innuendo and suggestion this product is deemed to need online support for what the community decides would be a maximising of the product and the experience using it.
WoTC, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;752314I had a discussion last night. If any other company turned round and said that their strategy going forward would involve supporting real world products with online support to expand and enrich the consumer experience, everyone would be patting them on the back. Especially if the company released this stuff for free.
OPP/WW starter PDFs, Eclipse Phase "Hack packs" of PDFs, art work, etc etc, FFE (Marc Miller) releases a big old CD-Rom full of stuff), and so on.
One moment "the community" is going "ooh, I like PDFs they are so good for RPGs and worth the money. I like reading on tablets. I like getting things online blah blah blah."
The next they (the community of consumers) are crucifying WoTC for releasing a product that has not been seen yet. Through innuendo and suggestion this product is deemed to need online support for what the community decides would be a maximising of the product and the experience using it.
WoTC, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I largely agree with the thrust of your post here, but I do think there's something of a presentation issue.
If, for example, WotC announced at the beginning, "We're releasing the Basic rules of the game for free, in PDF format, with a print on demand option," (which for all we know they may indeed be doing), and then said, "In addition to these free Basic rules, we'll be releasing a very affordable Starter Set that will come with dice, a quick How-to-Play guide for players, and an adventure designed to help first time DMs take new players into the game," they'd probably be getting a lot of accolades.
What happened is they announced the Starter Set, and as yet have not made all their plans as revealed to us as they are to Pundit. And since a lot of folks really want to see a quality Basic Set, people knock the Starter Set for not being that, and knock WotC for not making it that.
I myself think a good Basic Set (distinct from a Starter Set) is really needed to keep the game growing (and mitigating the need to quick-infuse revenue into the line by releasing a new edition of core books). But that doesn't mean I'm averse to alternate strategies, particularly 31 years after Mentzer Basic.
If it was a case of the Starter Set as is being expected to bring people to the Big 3, I, too, would be all over the announced Starter Set for not being enough. But apparently they have additional plans for the step between the Starter Set and the Big 3, so I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what they've got. If it is indeed something along the lines of setting up an on-ramp of Starter Set -> free Basic Set PDF -> Big 3, I think that's a great way of doing it without making the new player/DM pay for duplicated material.
It also makes sense in terms of targeting old school folks who don't want all the bells and whistles of the Big 3, and who have a plethora (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik&feature=kp) of free rulesets and other material, and are not inclined to actually pay for a new Basic Set.
Quote from: estar;752278I for one never thought 4e was a shitty RPG. A shitty Dungeons & Dragons yes but not a shitty game. If the OSR contributed meaningfully to 4e demise it is only because by making the history of D&D more accessible.
I didn't say it's a shitty game, but I did say it's a shitty RPG.
And I'm not laying the credit on the OSR. I'm laying it on all of the vocal critics of said shitty RPG.
Quote from: Iosue;752332And since a lot of folks really want to see a quality Basic Set, people knock the Starter Set for not being that, and knock WotC for not making it that.
The standard game presented in the core rules
is the basic set. It's the most basic iteration of the system, and can be expanded (in the core books and I presume in future books) with options that add complexity and variants.
Quote from: kythri;752337I didn't say it's a shitty game, but I did say it's a shitty RPG.
And I'm not laying the credit on the OSR. I'm laying it on all of the vocal critics of said shitty RPG.
I'm pretty sure WotC care more about sales than what a bunch of geeks who represent a fraction of their customers say on the internet. If 4E was pulled early it's because it didn't meet sales targets. If it did meet those targets, they'd still be publishing 4E, regardless of how many geeks pissed and moaned about it on RPG forums.
And to be honest, I don't think 5E will be warmly embraced by the online D&D wonks, who tend towards the dogmatic and combative. It lacks the cutting-edge mechanics that please the system-wonks, and it won't be old-school enough to suit the OSR taliban (nothing is). But I do think it will be a commercial success. And I think it will demonstrate how out of step the RPG forum community is with the far larger, and far more casual and easy-going market of people who play the game and don't argue about it on the internet.
Quote from: Haffrung;752343But I do think it will be a commercial success. And I think it will demonstrate how out of step the RPG forum community is with the far larger, and far more casual and easy-going market of people who play the game and don't argue about it on the internet.
Yeah, we'll see, because comments like that were the same shit the 4vengers were crowing whenever anyone made any comment critical about 4E:
"RPG Forums are out of step"
"The Internet echo-chamber is an infinitesimally small portion of the greater RPG community and doesn't represent them"
or, my absolute favorite,
"4E has been a commercial success"
And we all know how that turned out.
It's the same here - people are critical of the game, the execution of its release, etc. and they're met with the same reception that critics of 4E received.
I've ultimately got little to no interest in 5E, but I do hope that it's successful, because, regardless of what some believe, I feel D&D as a name/brand is important to the hobby.
I truly do wish it was something I wanted to play, instead of something I find myself shaking my head in disgust about any time I see some new bit of news or some new foot-chewing comment by people like Mearls.
Halfrung is "all in" as far as 5e is concerned, so read his posts in that light.
Quote from: kythri;752351Yeah, we'll see, because comments like that were the same shit the 4vengers were crowing whenever anyone made any comment critical about 4E:
"RPG Forums are out of step"
WOTC tested this hypothesis, and it can be true.
They asked survey questions, and then compared answers in the thousands, to the same answers found on message boards.
The message boards, regardless of topic, were much more negative (about any question) than the survey responses.
RPG forums can be out of step, AND 4e can have been a failure of a game that in many ways was bad. They're not mutually exclusive claims.
Forums attract the most negative voices, and those negative voices might be representative of the larger group of all opinions, or they can be entirely not representative at all. But the bottom line is, you shouldn't go by forum opinions, because they will always skew negative and so it's not a good measurement tool.
IN 5e's case the surveys, which are measuring a lot more people than the internet message board posters, are showing they are going in the right direction with 5e. That's something they did not do with 4e. It is however something Paizo did with Pathfinder, before they made those rules. And it's something TSR did a bit of as well.
Quote from: Mistwell;752361WOTC tested this hypothesis, and it can be true.
They asked survey questions, and then compared answers in the thousands, to the same answers found on message boards.
The message boards, regardless of topic, were much more negative (about any question) than the survey responses.
RPG forums can be out of step, AND 4e can have been a failure of a game that in many ways was bad. They're not mutually exclusive claims.
Forums attract the most negative voices, and those negative voices might be representative of the larger group of all opinions, or they can be entirely not representative at all. But the bottom line is, you shouldn't go by forum opinions, because they will always skew negative and so it's not a good measurement tool.
IN 5e's case the surveys, which are measuring a lot more people than the internet message board posters, are showing they are going in the right direction with 5e. That's something they did not do with 4e. It is however something Paizo did with Pathfinder, before they made those rules. And it's something TSR did a bit of as well.
4E itself was arguably built around complaints common on rpg forums at the time. I think forums can provide a useful window but you have to be careful because they don't necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of gamers (in most game groups I have been in lije 1 in 4 or 5 guys are regular forum posters).
Quote from: Endless Flight;752352Halfrung is "all in" as far as 5e is concerned, so read his posts in that light.
Yeah, I'm frankly amazed that WotC is designing a version of D&D that suits my preferences. I've played it, and it's damn close to the hybrid version of the game I've been cobbling together myself over the years.
I don't share the seething resentment towards WotC that so many RPG forum posters seem to have - I don't feel any emotions at all towards WotC (or any other company that makes things I buy). So the reflexive hostility and suspicion expressed towards a game that hasn't even been published yet, and which most of the critics didn't bother to playtest, strikes me as childish. And as I've noted already, I get he strong impression that a great many of the people taking the time to express their criticism aren't even interested in playing 5E regardless of how WotC designs or markets it. Maybe this was also the case with 4E - I didn't bother to follow the release and reaction to 4E because I wasn't interested in the game. Apparently a lot of people who didn't intend to play 4E spent much time and energy denouncing it - motivated by impulses I can't begin to fathom.
I'm not bothered that some people won't like or play 5E. There are reasoned arguments being made against 5E. They stand out because they aren't expressed with a tone of anger and contempt. And they deal in specifics. But it looks to me like most of the criticism comes from people who hate WotC or hate any alternative to their cherished version of the game. And that's to be expected - each edition of D&D, regardless of its qualities, seems to spark an eruption of nerdfury in a segment of the fanbase.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;7523624E itself was arguably built around complaints common on rpg forums at the time. I think forums can provide a useful window but you have to be careful because they don't necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of gamers (in most game groups I have been in lije 1 in 4 or 5 guys are regular forum posters).
Yep. Theory-wanks endlessly carped on pre-4E D&D as broken because of LFQW, boring fighters, etc, and fostered a forum meme that the game needed to be redesigned from the ground up to balance it. WotC made the mistake of believing those attitudes expressed on forums were widely held among the D&D player base. They were wrong.
Quote from: Haffrung;752372Yep. Theory-wanks endlessly carped on pre-4E D&D as broken because of LFQW, boring fighters, etc, and fostered a forum meme that the game needed to be resigned from the ground up to balance it. WotC made the mistake of believing those attitudes expressed on forums were widely held among the D&D player base. They were wrong.
Well they kinda had to choose what people to listen to, cause I remember others arguing against those things or stating they really weren't problems.
I also remember some of those folks not liking the actual changes made to address those complaints.
The exclusion of the middle here by so many - including Pundit - is kind of funny.
You see, it's not a case of "either you love 5e, forsaking all others, or you are actively trying to be a charop grognard destructoid bent on ruining it and shitting on Mike Mearls' works" -
I want the Starter Set to have included character building rules so it could make it in spaces that pen and paper RPGs have been out of for ages. Places like Toys R Us. Target. Wal-Mart. Retail spaces, where it'd be on game shelves again. I think that could be a Good Thing.
But kids who're bought things from those shelves are very instant gratification especially if it's a birthday/holiday gift. No character creation is very batteries-not-included, to me.
I am okay with "BNI" for the Starter Set. For the sake of people starting D&D for the first time I would have liked to have seen the character creation rules in there. I don't think it's the worst I just think it could have been better. Get it?
I'm buying the starter set. I'm going to try it. I'm going to see where the playtests I played and the various L&L Columns condensed, and what they condensed to. Do you 5Vengers get that? Do you? We don't want to see D&D fail. We want it to do better. Of course, acknowledging this doesn't get controversy ginned up, 1000+ message threads here, and bozillions of clicks on Pundit's blog so, in the name of generating traffic and having people look at him and look at his forums here, it's best to pretend that it's all about some bogeymen trying to kill 5e in the crib. Right?
Also the people saying "WELL THERE WERE NO REAL CHARACTER CREATION RULES IN ANY OTHER STARTER D&D'S EITHER!" in reference to the Holmes edition of D&D, or Basic D&D edited by either Tom Moldvay or Frank Mentzer need to stop, because that's wrong and stupid.
Anyway, I doubt this will have any impact so screech on.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;752362(in most game groups I have been in life 1 in 4 or 5 guys are regular forum posters).
About one in twelve here. I easily post more in one week than the rest of my real-life crowd has posted in their entire collective lives.
Quote from: Saplatt;752380About one in twelve here. I easily post more in one week than the rest of my real-life crowd has posted in their entire collective lives.
Of the three big AD&D groups I've had in the last 14 years (first one lasted 3 or so years, second one 5, the other currently ongoing) and dozen or so convention AD&D games I've had I am literally the only person to be a regular forum poster, so that's ... psh, not including the conventions, 25-30 people?
So true.
Right now we just have what amounts to pieces of a puzzle and no idea what the final picture really is.
What all IS in the starter? What all IS in the online part? What IS the pack in adventure module and is it even a module?
Its like trying to decipher what the new Dungeon board game will be based just on the box cover.
At first I was a bit... vexed that it lacked the chargen.
Then I was kinda... meh, when it looked like the chargen was elsewhere.
But now after some thought it seems like it might actually be a potentially good idea. IF WOTC hasnt somehow botched it. I still think the chargen should be in the starter. But if the current set up is what it appears then I am fine with that and I am leaning heavily to get it.
REALLY wish they would just come out and say flat out whats what and whats where.
Quote from: Haffrung;752370I don't share the seething resentment towards WotC that so many RPG forum posters seem to have - I don't feel any emotions at all towards WotC (or any other company that makes things I buy). So the reflexive hostility and suspicion expressed towards a game that hasn't even been published yet, and which most of the critics didn't bother to playtest, strikes me as childish.
Well, you have a capitalist viewpoint of things. Nothing wrong with that. "I buy stuff that I like!" and it's sort of in a vacuum. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone. In the lead-up to 4e, Wizards basically told fans of older editions "you are playing it wrong!!! try the new and shiny!!!" That didn't really go over too well with a fairly large contingent of older fans. I think it did permanent damage. I think that Wizards now needs to get more new blood into the game to make up for old blood that's gone, but it's no longer a one for one, it's more like a two for one. Many people are now diehard Paizo fans, never to return to Wizards. Others moved back to older editions/OSR games, never to return.
It cannot be underestimated how shitty they handled themselves in 2008. It's like they failed customer service 101. It's an uphill battle, which is why 5e better be good. Not for our sake, but for their sake.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;752378I want the Starter Set to have included character building rules so it could make it in spaces that pen and paper RPGs have been out of for ages. Places like Toys R Us. Target. Wal-Mart. Retail spaces, where it'd be on game shelves again. I think that could be a Good Thing.
But kids who're bought things from those shelves are very instant gratification especially if it's a birthday/holiday gift. No character creation is very batteries-not-included, to me.
Bolded for emphasis.
I have kids. The idea of jumping online for something compatible with what they are doing is a non-issue with people who were raised with computers and the internet being as ubiquitous as they are now.
A hybrid product, especially when we don't know exactly how it is going to roll out (is it a pdf? an online character gen? an app?) could be very strong with kids now, especially at a price point so low that parents don't balk.
People tend to forget that portion of getting kids in the game. Not everyone is having their starter box bought for them by that uncle who has a vested interest in gaming, like several people talked about here, who are all OK with paying 30 bucks for the starter set. But a lot of those kids are going to see it and ask their parents to buy it, or are going to be using their allowance.
I'll just say that if my kid asks for something that is 20 bucks that I don't know a lot about, I'm waaaay more likely to buy it than if its 30 dollars. Granted, there isn't a whole lot of hobby stuff I don't know a good bit about, but still.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;752383Of the three big AD&D groups I've had in the last 14 years (first one lasted 3 or so years, second one 5, the other currently ongoing) and dozen or so convention AD&D games I've had I am literally the only person to be a regular forum poster, so that's ... psh, not including the conventions, 25-30 people?
Yup. In nearly 20 years of gaming I've met EXACTLY 2 other people who posted on RPG fourms. Out of hundreds of gamers spread across 3 continents.
3 people, myself included.
Quote from: Endless Flight;752385It cannot be underestimated how shitty they handled themselves in 2008. It's like they failed customer service 101. It's an uphill battle, which is why 5e better be good. Not for our sake, but for their sake.
They made a new game. It was different from the previous game. Some people (and nerds in particular) get personally insulted at the idea that other people like different things than they like, or that the company they buy things from is making things for different tastes now*. Thats why you see expressions like 'slapped in the face'. It's an emotional grievance. I know companies are expected to manage these expectations and resentments. But I've also seen enough forum anger blasted at every option (more/less, heavy/light, new/old, big/small, fast/slow, etc. etc) to conclude it's largely impossible to avoid pissing off legions of geeks with change.
People who don't like something new still have the old. Especially with D&D, where every edition has mountains of material available for it, and where you can make up your stuff up forever.
* Anyone read tech forums when the iPad came out? It was ridiculed. Apple were absolute fucking morons. Why would anyone need a tablet when everyone already had a laptop and a smart phone? Who was going to buy the thing - especially at that price? The iPad was going to be a disaster. Now, I'm not a fan of Apple in general. But I ended up being one of the 10s of millions of people who love their iPad. And the experts and tech bloggers proved how badly out of touch they were.
Quote from: kythri;752337I didn't say it's a shitty game, but I did say it's a shitty RPG.
Well, I'm over three years into a fun 4e campaign; it's been successful for me. I would agree more with Rob that 4e makes a poor D&D game - and that's one reason WotC's 4e adventures are so bad. IME it makes a good fantasy superheroes game in the Marvel style, and it works best when played that way.
Quote from: Haffrung;752392They made a new game. It was different from the previous game. Some people (and nerds in particular) get personally insulted at the idea that other people like different things than they like, or that the company they buy things from is making things for different tastes now*. Thats why you see expressions like 'slapped in the face'. It's an emotional grievance. I know companies are expected to manage these expectations and resentments. But I've also seen enough forum anger blasted at every option (more/less, heavy/light, new/old, big/small, fast/slow, etc. etc) to conclude it's largely impossible to avoid pissing off legions of geeks with change.
And yet it shouldn't have been *that* different from 3.5, considering Pathfinder's success. If anything, they could have simplified 3.5 and made a "basic" Dungeons & Dragons, keeping the fans of 3.5 happy while satisfying the D&D-lite gamers. Paizo would have never gotten the traction that they did. How could they have screwed the pooch so badly?
Quote from: Emperor Norton;752389The idea of jumping online for something compatible with what they are doing is a non-issue with people who were raised with computers and the internet being as ubiquitous as they are now.
Y'know, this keeps getting said, yet it's being repeated over and over again to people that are active on an Internet RPG forum.
By their very nature, these are people that don't have a problem with jumping online for things - to the point that they're participants in a niche aspect of a niche hobby.
So, maybe there's something else there?
Quote from: S'mon;752398Well, I'm over three years into a fun 4e campaign; it's been successful for me. I would agree more with Rob that 4e makes a poor D&D game - and that's one reason WotC's 4e adventures are so bad. IME it makes a good fantasy superheroes game in the Marvel style, and it works best when played that way.
Yep. The early 4E adventures published by WotC would have made great AD&D or 5E adventures (if Hoard of the Dragon Queen isn't to my liking, I'll probably kick off my 5E campaign with a conversion of Thunderspire Labyrinth). But they're really poorly suited for a game where combats take 60-90 minutes. My 4E Essentials campaign has no more combat than my last AD&D game. The difference is a 5 hour session consists of 2.5 hours of exploration and roleplay, and 2 combats, instead of 2.5 hours of exploration and roleplay and 6 combats.
Quote from: kythri;752402Y'know, this keeps getting said, yet it's being repeated over and over again to people that are active on an Internet RPG forum.
By their very nature, these are people that don't have a problem with jumping online for things - to the point that they're participants in a niche aspect of a niche hobby.
So, maybe there's something else there?
You might also notice that plenty of people on forums are still anti-pdf, something I've never seen really from the younger crowd. Just because someone learns how to use forums, doesn't mean they are accepting of other digital offerings.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;752378I am okay with "BNI" for the Starter Set. For the sake of people starting D&D for the first time I would have liked to have seen the character creation rules in there. I don't think it's the worst I just think it could have been better. Get it?
Ditto.
Ok, can we get real and toss the cost argument down the toilet where it belongs? Paizo delivered way more content then WotC is going to do, way more then the difference in cost would account for.
If Paizo made money on the Pathfinder Beginner Box, then WotC could easily add the chargen rules into the D&D Starter Set and still make money.
But..Capitalism! Yeah, the Beginner Box didn't sink Paizo did it? No, think it probably did a little bit of good, eh? Tripping over gold bars on your way to pick up a penny is not the sort of blind knee-jerk calculation WotC should be looking at.
Now if the guys at WotC sat down, knocked the ball around and came up with:
1. The intended use of the Starter Set, ie. 'Pick up and Play, Now!" could actually be hurt with chargen.
2. The intended target, new gamers unfamiliar with older RPG models but very familiar with digital products wouldn't be bothered in the slightest by a digital addition, in fact they'd probably think it was modern, natural and cool.
Then they're making good decisions. You may disagree with the reasoning, but they have sound reasoning.
If what happened was...
Hasbro: You need to hit the $20 price point and must have a per unit profit of X otherwise it's a no-go, and the only way they can hit X is by cutting chargen, then it's unfortunate, because they don't have their shit together.
We're never gonna know which one it is. One thing for sure though is that the mini-me Gordon Geckos who think WotC should be counting pennies on this one should flush their shit for brains out with Drano and then go back to school. Brand Damage is a thing. Like it, love it or hate it, the fact is, WotC damaged the Brand with 4e. Worrying about rounding errors and significant digits at this point is asinine.
Yeah they need to make money, they also need to recapture the lead in a market in which they've been overtaken due to their own mismanagement and incompetence. You don't do that without spending. Period.
Unless Hasbro and WotC have the same interns in place who were running the show in 2008, I doubt highly it's a cost issue, or at least I hope the hell for their sake it's not.
The fact that the 3 core books are listed as being optional tells me that WotC is putting way more thought into this from the game design point of view, and the idea that they would chop chargen out of the box for the first time in 40 years due to some fraction of a percentage is just...well, not a very good one.
You don't retake the lead in a market without doing something bold. So far, it looks like they're being pretty damn bold.
Quote from: kythri;752402By their very nature, these are people that don't have a problem with jumping online for things - to the point that they're participants in a niche aspect of a niche hobby.
So, maybe there's something else there?
I may jump online for things - but I don't run games unless I have them in hardcopy. So I get a hardcopy of eg OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord before I run them, just like I get 4e hardbacks and don't rely on the 4e online tools.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;752405You might also notice that plenty of people on forums are still anti-pdf, something I've never seen really from the younger crowd. Just because someone learns how to use forums, doesn't mean they are accepting of other digital offerings.
Yep, if I'm going to use a pdf in play, I print it out.
I'd add that somebody at WotC thinks chargen is important for a certain set of buyers of the starter set, after all they are going to provide it for free on line.
Quote from: S'mon;752415Yep, if I'm going to use a pdf in play, I print it out.
same here. Not a fan of referring to digital media when I'm running an adventure
So then. Playing Paizo Pathfinder Society and adventure things with D&D 5E.
Any takers?
Quote from: CRKrueger;752411Ok, ...
If Paizo made money on the Pathfinder Beginner Box, then WotC could easily add the chargen rules into the D&D Starter Set and still make money.
But..Capitalism! Yeah, the Beginner Box didn't sink Paizo did it? No, think it probably did a little bit of good, eh? Tripping over gold bars on your way to pick up a penny is not the sort of blind knee-jerk calculation WotC should be looking at.
...
I wonder how many new gamers Paizo's beginner box generated.
I'm sure there were some, but I haven't heard much about it.
The thing that somewhat inexplicably gets my goat the most is that they seem to be planning to charge 20 bucks for 4 minis in a blind booster.
I say "inexplicable" because minis are more window dressing than requirement for my personal D&D experience. Maybe it's that they have the temerity to call a package of minis a "booster" like it's a freakin' CCG.
This seems like the most obvious naked grab for cash, but if I they make their filthy lucre that way and are more giving with things like free character gen rules that aren't part of some crippleware then maybe I can give them a pass on the mini thing.
We may not all agree on the strategy of a starter box vs. beginner box vs. the complete game however we all agree that the recent strange marketing efforts have spawned some heated debate (read: PR). Amirite? Guys? Yeah?
Quote from: Piestrio;752390In nearly 20 years of gaming I've met EXACTLY 2 other people who posted on RPG fourms.
In 2010, I did a survey at every con game I did that year asking if anyone in my RPG games have ever heard of RPG.net, OSR, retroclones, etc.
Out of dozens of gamers, I found one. Just as gamers who go to cons is a subset of gamers, gamers who are involved in RPGs online is another subset.
Quote from: CRKrueger;752411The fact that the 3 core books are listed as being optional tells me that WotC is putting way more thought into this from the game design point of view
PHB Optional? Do you have a link?
The Amazon page for the 5e PHB says this:
The Player's Handbook® is the essential reference for every Dungeons & Dragons® roleplayer.
Optional =/= Essential
MMs & DMGs are always optional for players, just not DMs.
Quote from: CRKrueger;752411You don't retake the lead in a market without doing something bold. So far, it looks like they're being pretty damn bold.
If you think 5e is "pretty damn bold", let me introduce you to chicken broth which you will find "very spicy."
Quote from: trechriron;752460Amirite?
If lame ass marketing is still marketing, then you are rite. Its almost laughable how badly this launch is going. Oddly, I have never seen any of this clusterfuckery when WotC launches new Magic editions. Clearly, the RPG division is the short bus of the company.
Quote from: Natty Bodak;752458The thing that somewhat inexplicably gets my goat the most is that they seem to be planning to charge 20 bucks for 4 minis in a blind booster.
I say "inexplicable" because minis are more window dressing than requirement for my personal D&D experience. Maybe it's that they have the temerity to call a package of minis a "booster" like it's a freakin' CCG.
This seems like the most obvious naked grab for cash, but if I they make their filthy lucre that way and are more giving with things like free character gen rules that aren't part of some crippleware then maybe I can give them a pass on the mini thing.
In their defense... WOTC's been selling blind-bag minis since fairly early in 3.5. At that point they had a miniatures skirmish game to support, though. It remains to be seen if they have any plans to do something like that again.
Quote from: LibraryLass;752463In their defense... WOTC's been selling blind-bag minis since fairly early in 3.5. At that point they had a miniatures skirmish game to support, though. It remains to be seen if they have any plans to do something like that again.
I am curious if it really does drive additional purchases enough to be worth the annoyance on the part of consumers in getting a lot of a mini they do not like?
I am actually not sure. Many marketing strategies that aren't my preference do seem to work for others.
Quote from: CRKrueger;752411One thing for sure though is that the mini-me Gordon Geckos who think WotC should be counting pennies on this one should flush their shit for brains out with Drano and then go back to school. Brand Damage is a thing. Like it, love it or hate it, the fact is, WotC damaged the Brand with 4e. Worrying about rounding errors and significant digits at this point is asinine.
Yeah they need to make money, they also need to recapture the lead in a market in which they've been overtaken due to their own mismanagement and incompetence. You don't do that without .
Soooo.... the 5e roll out strikes you as an actual attempt to retake the RPG market lead?
Quote from: Spinachcat;752462PHB Optional? Do you have a link?
Back of Starter Set.
(http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61776&d=1400773985)
Back of PHB
(http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61780&d=1400774079)
Back of MM
(http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61778&d=1400774026)
Back of DMG
(http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61779&d=1400774051)
Quote from: Spinachcat;752462Optional =/= Essential
The Starter contains Essential Rules, with free chargen. The PHB is "essential reference", meaning it has what you need above 5th like the text of higher level spells mainly I would assume.
However Tyranny of Dragons can be run just with the Starter Set, so the PHB is really as optional as ECMI were.
Quote from: Spinachcat;752462If you think 5e is "pretty damn bold", let me introduce you to chicken broth which you will find "very spicy."
They're attempting to reach all the fragments of the playerbase, they're putting out a Starter Set without chargen relying on pdfs and they're giving away free sections of the PHB and who knows what else. For WotC, that's as bold as they've been since the OGL.
Quote from: Spinachcat;752462Clearly, the RPG division is the short bus of the company.
Yeah I really doubt they could have handled the announcement worse if they had tried.
Quote from: Windjammer;752466Soooo.... the 5e roll out strikes you as an actual attempt to retake the RPG market lead?
Maybe, maybe not. It might be just an attempt to salvage the brand enough to make it marketable in alternate revenue streams, who knows.
Variable rarity miniatures for a roleplaying game is braindead, always has been, unless they intend dual use for something else, like a D&D Tactics based on the core of 4e or the boardgames.
It does seem like it's an attempt to "Unite the Clans" as it were, or at least get everyone who ever played any version of D&D to take another look, and the decent organized-play ground game seems like they're aiming at Pathfinder Society.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;752422So then. Playing Paizo Pathfinder Society and adventure things with D&D 5E.
Any takers?
If I were to buy 5e it would almost certainly be for running Paizo APs/adventures with it, yup. For me the full Pathfinder system is much too clunky, and lacks 4e's virtue of reasonable class balance. I'm not sure if it's worth learning 5e over using OSRIC/1e, that's why I had been thinking of getting the starter set, to get familiar with 5e and find out if it was worth adopting. With no chargen in the box it sounds as if that's probably not worth doing, though. I should probably trust my instincts and get my 4e group to try OSRIC/1e after our 4e campaign ends, rather than worry about 5e.
Quote from: Saplatt;752423I wonder how many new gamers Paizo's beginner box generated.
I'm sure there were some, but I haven't heard much about it.
If you go to Paizo's Beginner Box forum you'll see a fair number. And a friend of mine told me her 6 year old got hooked on 'D&D' after I ran a Beginner Box game for them a few weeks ago, so there's one. :)
'Upgrading' from the PBB to the (IMO insanely overwrought) Pathfinder Core Rulebook is very intimidating, though. Makes me wonder if the best transition for new players & GMs in future might be from PBB to full 5e.
Quote from: Natty Bodak;752458The thing that somewhat inexplicably gets my goat the most is that they seem to be planning to charge 20 bucks for 4 minis in a blind booster.
I say "inexplicable" because minis are more window dressing than requirement for my personal D&D experience. Maybe it's that they have the temerity to call a package of minis a "booster" like it's a freakin' CCG.
This seems like the most obvious naked grab for cash, but if I they make their filthy lucre that way and are more giving with things like free character gen rules that aren't part of some crippleware then maybe I can give them a pass on the mini thing.
The Wizkids Pathfinder Battles minis are priced the same way - ca £13 for 1 Large & 3 small/medium in a blind box. Veeery expensive, but the paint job quality is mostly* very nice indeed, far superior to the old WotC plastic prepaints. I got a bunch a few days ago (three Legends of Golarion & two Wrath of the Righteous) and the cost to quality seems reasonable. Presumably the WotC ones will be of equivalent quality.
*I did have to touch up Queen Ileosa. :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;752462If lame ass marketing is still marketing, then you are rite. Its almost laughable how badly this launch is going. Oddly, I have never seen any of this clusterfuckery when WotC launches new Magic editions. Clearly, the RPG division is the short bus of the company.
They (M:TG people) seem to be forbidden to talk to the RPG side, given that one lot by all accounts run a professional & successful operation, and the other lot are (in recent years) laughably amateurish at best, incompetent at worst. Maybe there's some issue that MTG staffers get paid a lot more and it'd be an unproductive use of their time to advise on RPG marketing, but there does seem to be some weird constraint. It doesn't help that Hasbro-WoTC seems to consistently fire their best RPG people. If Paizo did that ("Hey Lisa, James Jacob's salary is looking kinda big...") they'd be where WoTC are now.
Quote from: Windjammer;752466Soooo.... the 5e roll out strikes you as an actual attempt to retake the RPG market lead?
I wonder about that. I think it might not be. They seem to care more about rebuilding the general D&D brand, rather than their position in the RPG market. Which makes sense - it doesn't matter how many actual comics Marvel sell or don't sell, if their brand strength lets them make tons of money from movies etc. RPGs seem a lot like comics these days.
Quote from: S'mon;752487I wonder about that. I think it might not be. They seem to care more about rebuilding the general D&D brand, rather than their position in the RPG market. Which makes sense - it doesn't matter how many actual comics Marvel sell or don't sell, if their brand strength lets them make tons of money from movies etc. RPGs seem a lot like comics these days.
Precisely. Which is why D&D would be better off with a smaller company. Large companies don't give a shit about the hobby, they just want to squeeze every dime possible out of the brand. Hasbro really wouldn't care if there was a D&D tabletop rpg anymore as long as the brand was churning out MtG money.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;750870This.
And I hated feeling like I had to have a computer handy to roll up a character in 4e or even level up. I'm not saying that is the case but I really don't want to even need a PDF or char gen program. That was my one hope, a complete game no computer anything.
sorry, whining like my toddler, I know
Yeah if you need a computer to make a character count me out, if I can't print out a sheet and write one up with a pencil & pen, then its just 4e all over again. I don't mind a computer generation helper at times but not as a requirement because the games too damn complex.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;752389I have kids. The idea of jumping online for something compatible with what they are doing is a non-issue with people who were raised with computers and the internet being as ubiquitous as they are now.
A hybrid product, especially when we don't know exactly how it is going to roll out (is it a pdf? an online character gen? an app?) could be very strong with kids now, especially at a price point so low that parents don't balk.
Exactly. I'm very much about the DIY aspects of D&D, but even I see the mistake many make in this thread of assuming that chargen in the starter box is important for kids or others who have never played an RPG. A couple pregens in the box and a sentence in the book saying you can really play a wide variety of characters, and there are full rules online and in the PHB is all you really need.
Now, whether WotC has actually done this right is a different matter, and one only time will reveal.
Quote from: flyingcircus;752518Yeah if you need a computer to make a character count me out, if I can't print out a sheet and write one up with a pencil & pen, then its just 4e all over again. I don't mind a computer generation helper at times but not as a requirement because the games too damn complex.
Character generation will be in the PHB - same place its been in every edition of D&D. The Starter Set is for total newbs. The confusion over this strikes me as willful at this point.
Quote from: Haffrung;752569Character generation will be the PHB - same place its been in every edition of D&D. The Starter Set is for total newbs. The confusion over this strikes me as willful at this point.
It is. We're dealing with bad faith at this point. Same sort of passive aggressive bullshit you find on EnWorld and RPG.net, only it's here now, and even some moderators are engaging in it just like fucking Umbran.
Quote from: Mistwell;752577It is. We're dealing with bad faith at this point. Same sort of passive aggressive bullshit you find on EnWorld and RPG.net, only it's here now, and even some moderators are engaging in it just like fucking Umbran.
Que?
I'd have to agree.
1. It's aimed at DM's
2. It's aimed at newbies
3. It's aimed to immediately grab a group and jump in no instruction needed
4. It's probably best to try with Tyranny of Dragons
5. Character generation will be freely available online at minimum and likely cover levels 1-20.
In otherwords as an experienced player that doesn't DM the game it's not a product I'm interested in or even aimed at me.
Quote from: One Horse Town;752578Que?
I doubt he means you.
Quote from: Mistwell;752577It is. We're dealing with bad faith at this point. Same sort of passive aggressive bullshit you find on EnWorld and RPG.net, only it's here now, and even some moderators are engaging in it just like fucking Umbran.
Aw man, that's harsh! Umbran is the main reason I barely read/post on ENW anymore.
Umbran and the goddamnawful UI. :(
Quote from: Windjammer;752466Soooo.... the 5e roll out strikes you as an actual attempt to retake the RPG market lead?
Yes, and your faux-superiority contempt hardly changes that.
Quote from: S'mon;752594Umbran and the goddamnawful UI. :(
What is the UI?
Quote from: Windjammer;752466Soooo.... the 5e roll out strikes you as an actual attempt to retake the RPG market lead?
The fact the 5E release isn't catered to the online population of dogmatic grumblers is the most hopeful sign yet that they're aiming to retake the RPG market lead. Because when D&D is thriving, it's because it's market is built on a foundation of tens of thousands of casual gamers out there actually playing the game, not the hundreds of theorists, BNGs, and edition-warriors who complain about it endlessly online. Frankly, I'd be worried about the prospects of 5E if the OSR Taliban, denners, and RPGnet system-wonks were praising the roll-out.
Quote from: Mistwell;752577It is. We're dealing with bad faith at this point. Same sort of passive aggressive bullshit you find on EnWorld and RPG.net, only it's here now, and even some moderators are engaging in it just like fucking Umbran.
At least Benoist is now trying to back away from his outlandish claim that we should thank him for personally overthrowing 4E. You wouldn't get that at the big purple, just thread bans and the stamping out of all dissidents to the all holy mod.
Quote from: Fiasco;752619You wouldn't get that at the big purple, just thread bans and the stamping out of all dissidents to the all holy mod.
Yeah, sometimes, it's a shame...
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;752613What is the UI?
User Interface - thinking specifically of the posting box; the Smilies hang down into the text area and there seems no way to stop that.
Quote from: Fiasco;752619At least Benoist is now trying to back away from his outlandish claim that we should thank him for personally overthrowing 4E.
What I said is that, if it weren't for critics like me, which doesn't mean only me, or me and two guys, but really, "critics" in general, WotC would still be on course with 4e and pretend like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Your attempts to shut people up for criticizing the starter set have the exact reverse effect as what you hope it does: it doesn't shut people up, it just annoys them and makes them want to be more vocal before turning their back and not looking back. That is exactly what the people who defended 4e accomplished before you. Some grand tent of reconciliation you are building for yourselves right here, 5e fans! People have opinions, like and dislike things, and you'll excuse me if I feel like I have a goddam right to give my opinion about what I think should or shouldn't be in a boxed set I'd offer people to introduce them to role playing games.
I'm not responsible for you or anyone else holding grudges over whatever the fuck you think I did to your cheerios at some point or other in the past. Likewise, if you think using "fuck" makes someone insane or outlandish on the internet, please turn off your computer immediately: you might end up with some brain damage staring at this screen for too long. And please, please! Don't ever go on YouTube. Your brain will explode. You have no idea.
Jesus H! Just buy the fucking starter and tape basic character generation options to it!!!! If you think your relatives and friends are COMPLETELY computer irrliterate that is? How hard is it to write up an array and 2-3 random methods? It's not. Focus on the fact that it's 12-13 dollars and fully supported online and with adventure paths up to 15th level.
If critics could achieve something, Uwe Boll'd not make films.
Quote from: S'mon;752594Aw man, that's harsh! Umbran is the main reason I barely read/post on ENW anymore.
Umbran and the goddamnawful UI. :(
Fuck ENworld, its weekly redesign, and Umbran's weekly bitchiness.
Quote from: JasperAK;752663Fuck ENworld, its weekly redesign, and Umbran's weekly bitchiness.
Damn right. Combined with their little point system? FUCK THAT!
Quote from: Marleycat;752659Jesus H! Just buy the fucking starter and tape basic character generation options to it!!!! If you think your relatives and friends are COMPLETELY computer irrliterate that is? How hard is it to write up an array and 2-3 random methods? It's not. Focus on the fact that it's 12-13 dollars and fully supported online and with adventure paths up to 15th level.
I don't think anyone would argue the value of what WOTC is offering here.
It is just that at a fundamental level some (myself included) believe that character generation should not be divorced from the play experience. Otherwise I don't see this starter set being much different than Wrath of Ashardelon or Legend of Drizzt.
I think the question comes down to what should be emphasized in a product solely designed to bring new blood into the hobby.
Quote from: Marleycat;752659Jesus H! Just buy the fucking starter and tape basic character generation options to it!!!! If you think your relatives and friends are COMPLETELY computer irrliterate that is? How hard is it to write up an array and 2-3 random methods? It's not. Focus on the fact that it's 12-13 dollars and fully supported online and with adventure paths up to 15th level.
From where I'm standing right now you guys are the ones who are pissing your pants because someone dared to criticize the starter set. Are you guys alright? Will you be okay? This isn't the end of the world, you know? It isn't for me, and neither does it have to be for anyone else, yourselves included.
Well, I guess Mearls was right. 5e is the unifying edition. It's managed to unify the irrational 4e fans, irrational 3e fans, and irrational OSR grognards all in their hate for it. I mean, some of things people are really getting worked up over and digging their trenches for is...well...odd to say the least.
Quote from: JasperAK;752667I don't think anyone would argue the value of what WOTC is offering here.
It is just that at a fundamental level some (myself included) believe that character generation should not be divorced from the play experience. Otherwise I don't see this starter set being much different than Wrath of Ashardelon or Legend of Drizzt.
I think the question comes down to what should be emphasized in a product solely designed to bring new blood into the hobby.
I understand your POV but even for myself (30+) if I have access to a PDF or SRD this isn't even an issue. And I only need it 1 time!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;752670Well, I guess Mearls was right. 5e is the unifying edition. It's managed to unify the irrational 4e fans, irrational 3e fans, and irrational OSR grognards all in their hate for it. I mean, some of things people are really getting worked up over and digging their trenches for is...well...odd to say the least.
It's like Seattle Seahawk envy from Nina fans. No logic or sense.
Quote from: JasperAK;752667It is just that at a fundamental level some (myself included) believe that character generation should not be divorced from the play experience. Otherwise I don't see this starter set being much different than Wrath of Ashardelon or Legend of Drizzt.
.
Except one's a board game and the other is not. Do you mean to seriously tell me that unless there are rules for char gen included in the starter box, that there isn't much difference between that and the games you listed?
Seriously? That has to be a joke.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;752674Except one's a board game and the other is not. Do you mean to seriously tell me that unless there are rules for char gen included in the starter box, that there isn't much difference between that and the games you listed?
Seriously? That has to be a joke.
At my FLGS and my buddy's home game, I found it difficult to distinguish by listening, what games people were playing between Wrath, Legend, or 4e's intro adventure Keep on the Shadowfell.
I believe part of that is because the players in the 4e game had no connection to their characters. Some roleplaying emerged during play, but that was equal across all of the games I mentioned. I say this not as a slight against any of those games, but to reinforce my argument that unless players are invested in their characters, then they might as well be playing a boardgame. Using your own imagination is key to what TTRPGs do best.
Now of course some will take their pre-gens and roleplay the hell out of them--those people will find a good home with RPGs regardless, but others may not grok roleplaying. That's where I think generating their own characters would be beneficial. Let them use their own imagination and learn what all those things on the character sheet mean by doing it themselves.
I think generating BASIC characters help new players with the fundamental rules of the game. Simple character sheets where players have to fill in their Ability Scores, Hit Points, Saves, Calculate their AC, List their class special abilities, choose their spells, and purchase their equipment works much better to teach the game than having everything handed to them and then answering the inevitable, 'what do all these things do?'
I hate how both of these threads are now talking about the same thing. Having a difficult time remembering where I said what.
What frustrates me is that nobody on this board is the target market. My kids, my friends kids, my sister's and brother's kids each far more computer and internet saavy then the majority of us ARE the target and most of you have not one clue about what you're complaining about.
Quote from: Marleycat;752713What frustrates me is that nobody on this board is the target market. My kids, my friends kids, my sister's and brother's kids each far more computer and internet saavy then the majority of us ARE the target and most of you have not one clue about what you're complaining about.
Except my 11 year old daughter is not as computer savvy as 41 year old me. I have to constantly warn her about certain websites that may contain viruses, show her how to install/upload programs (including Minecraft/Sims), etc.
Now my 65 year old parents are another matter. They call me up and ask me to help them with their computer issues as well.
You can't shortchange our generation. :)
For myself, having something in a book implies a type of tangibility that the 'cloud' can never really duplicate. I've had gaming books in places where I didn't have power and I didn't have internet connection. These days, with smart phones and such, it's probably less of an issue. But as long as I can read, books are compatible with whatever technology I do or do not have available.
Anything outside of printed material becomes a little more suspect. I certainly have computer games and files that I can no longer access - the technology has advanced to the point where they are no longer useful. Books never go out of date.
Personally, I'd be afraid of 'permanent changes' that I didn't care for. Imagine if the original theatrical release of Star Wars (Episodes 4-6) was gone forever because it had been 'updated online' for us and that was the only way you could ever see it. That's the type of tragedy you can avoid with a physical product.
Quote from: Endless Flight;752718Except my 11 year old daughter is not as computer savvy as 41 year old me. I have to constantly warn her about certain websites that may contain viruses, show her how to install/upload programs (including Minecraft/Sims), etc.
Now my 65 year old parents are another matter. They call me up and ask me to help them with their computer issues as well.
You can't shortchange our generation. :)
You have a point. Thing is the character generation piece isn't relevant to her because one she has you and two you know WotC's URL is safe.
Quote from: Marleycat;752744You have a point. Thing is the character generation piece isn't relevant to her because one she has you and two you know WotC's URL is safe.
Yeah, but it's another step in the process that's kind of unnecessary. She has to get my permission to use certain sites, even Wizards'. I'm sure a lot of parents have this kind of control over their kid. If she just buyed a set with the creation rules inside, this step is avoided. It speeds things up to skip a step. Yes, I would allow her to download the PDF file because I would like to read it myself, being a gamer. Who knows what other parents might say? What if some kid's parents are really strict about computer access?
Not having chargen does not bode well under any circumstances. There is no way in hell you can persuade anyone that this is a selling point.
I fear that it very possibly means that whoever put this together decided that chargen is "too complicated" for the new guy. Which either underestimates new players or means they haven't learned this particular lesson from 4e.
Whether it "cripples" the starter set, we'll see. But it's not a good sign in any case.
Quote from: Marleycat;752713What frustrates me is that nobody on this board is the target market. My kids, my friends kids, my sister's and brother's kids each far more computer and internet saavy then the majority of us ARE the target and most of you have not one clue about what you're complaining about.
FWIW I have two kids of my own, run RPGs for a local high school and organise a local under 14 year old event at my local RPG Con. Despite it seeming like younger players may have more ready access to the internet and be tech savvy, a PDF download presents a bigger barrier than you would expect. For one, many younger players are restricted or monitored when it comes to downloading off the net.
More importantly, younger players tend to have a shorter concentration span and a good chunk of them will only play with what's in the box and think that's the limits of what an RPG is capable of. They may well lose interest following down a link noted in the box to another document. In comparison, if the character generation was in the box then this would help shape their understanding of what they hold in their hands from the get go.
When dealing with younger players or new players, you need to give them a glimpse of what they are getting into in the first experience they have. The entirety of it. You don't want to overload them, of course, but omitting a core part of the appeal of the hobby is not a good approach for the target market.
Quote from: Saplatt;752380About one in twelve here. I easily post more in one week than the rest of my real-life crowd has posted in their entire collective lives.
Yeah, I don't know a single other gamer that posts at all, let alone like I do. I'd guess that forum posters make up maybe 5% of the fanbase, if that.
You can find that with any hobby, or any other thing, for that matter. How many motorcycle riders post about their bikes online? .005%? More? Less?
Forums are kind of a dying breed in the age of Twitter and Facebook anyway.
Quote from: Endless Flight;752771You can find that with any hobby, or any other thing, for that matter. How many motorcycle riders post about their bikes online? .005%? More? Less?
Forums are kind of a dying breed in the age of Twitter and Facebook anyway.
Well that sucks. If there are no forums what is the internet good for? Boobie pictures?
Quote from: Marleycat;752791Well that sucks. If there are no forums what is the internet good for? Boobie pictures?
It does suck!!! It's hard to pull people away from those evil social media sites.
Quote from: Marleycat;752713What frustrates me is that nobody on this board is the target market.
My bad. I must have heard something wrong about bringing people back into the game, appealing to everyone, whatever D&D style you like, and so on. Silly me. The kids will buy their boxed sets on their own. It wouldn't come to my mind to offer them myself thinking that'll feature the greatest strengths of tabletop role playing games right out of the box.
The thing is, if nobody's the target market on this board, these are that many people who will shrug and not get the starter set for Christmas because it doesn't include the features they think should be there to introduce their kids to pen and paper RPGs on their own, via the box. I know I wouldn't. I'd get Moldvay Cook instead at this rate. Or Pathfinder Beginner Box. Or whatever.
I mean, for WotC to say they want to bring back people and everyone's together playing D&D and stuff, you'd think they'd give some thought about how their products are bought, by whom, and how the hobby actually spreads more often than not: from person to person, from role player to newbie, and not magically to newbies directly cold turkey picking them up like this. Now, with all the competition for attention the kids are bombarded with, I bet you that is even less true than it ever was during the 80s.
I'll respond to you when I'm on a computer not a phone. It deserves that much justice for you to get it I guess. No worries.:)
Given you refuse to either admit or use OBVIOUS and EASY solutions without internet access which is ignorant, obtuse and willfully stupid given YOUR internet access is far more easy then mine and I can easily get said instructions along with my kids or friends using only MY current access points.
But yes, you're bad and remember it. At least it's better then your nonsensical arguments and whining.
Quote from: Benoist;752793My bad. I must have heard something wrong about bringing people back into the game, appealing to everyone, whatever D&D style you like, and so on. Silly me.
That's a pretty passive aggressive and snarky response to a pretty benign observation.
There are great things in this game, being marketed to you. The Starter Set isn't one of them. Now if you want to buy it for new players, and introduce them to the game WITH chargen, you're in a position where you can download and print it out and give it to them with the starter set.
Now if instead it's a hypothetical...then the passive aggressive snark was misplaced because it wasn't as personal as you made it out to seem.
Mistwell, it is aimed at him THAT IS HIS ISSUE. WotC is being very literal in that it's a Starter Set. For DM's.
Quote from: Mistwell;752802That's a pretty passive aggressive and snarky response to a pretty benign observation.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Quote from: Benoist;752808Pot. Kettle. Black.
Thank you for entertaining me until football season. This is awesome!
So, Pundit, is Basic the missing link you've been hinting at?
Quote from: Benoist;752641What I said is that, if it weren't for critics like me, which doesn't mean only me, or me and two guys, but really, "critics" in general, WotC would still be on course with 4e and pretend like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Your attempts to shut people up for criticizing the starter set have the exact reverse effect as what you hope it does: it doesn't shut people up, it just annoys them and makes them want to be more vocal before turning their back and not looking back. That is exactly what the people who defended 4e accomplished before you. Some grand tent of reconciliation you are building for yourselves right here, 5e fans! People have opinions, like and dislike things, and you'll excuse me if I feel like I have a goddam right to give my opinion about what I think should or shouldn't be in a boxed set I'd offer people to introduce them to role playing games.
I'm not responsible for you or anyone else holding grudges over whatever the fuck you think I did to your cheerios at some point or other in the past. Likewise, if you think using "fuck" makes someone insane or outlandish on the internet, please turn off your computer immediately: you might end up with some brain damage staring at this screen for too long. And please, please! Don't ever go on YouTube. Your brain will explode. You have no idea.
You are a pompous ass and take yourself far, far too seriously. As others have stated its sales and revenue that WOTC pays attention to not some lone voice on the Internet.
You certainly haven't pissed in my cheerios but sometimes I take the trouble of letting a bit of air out of overfilled balloons. If you think you are winning friends or changing minds in this thread then you are sadly mistaken.
People can buy or not buy the box set, its fine. Clearly the precious chargen rules are a massive deal breaker for some, ok. I suspect its not for the under 20s it is pitched at.
Quote from: flyingcircus;752518Yeah if you need a computer to make a character count me out, if I can't print out a sheet and write one up with a pencil & pen, then its just 4e all over again. I don't mind a computer generation helper at times but not as a requirement because the games too damn complex.
4e chargen never required a computer. No more than 3e did. The online chargen tools made stuff easier if you wanted to pull options from a dozen books as pull down menus instead of having books in front of you, but if you were just making a 4e character using 1 or 2 books, then there was zero reason to use a computer.
I made dozens of pregens for convention events over the years, all by having a blank word processor page and the PHBs. If I had stylish handwriting, I would have just used paper.
Quote from: talysman;752549A couple pregens in the box and a sentence in the book saying you can really play a wide variety of characters, and there are full rules online and in the PHB is all you really need.
Perhaps.
Parents might get pissed when the kids print out the 100 page PDF because the kid says his new game is incomplete. Ink ain't cheap.
Quote from: Rincewind1;752662If critics could achieve something, Uwe Boll'd not make films.
Uwe has my respect for calling out his critics to the boxing ring and then wailing on the fuckers. I bet even successful directors were chuckling about that one.
Mearls might want to start working out.
Quote from: Marleycat;752713What frustrates me is that nobody on this board is the target market.
Isn't that a problem when the new Starter Set for D&D isn't getting veteran gamers excited about buying it as a gift for their friends???
I know that if I was buying a 12 year old kid a RPG, it would not be this Starter Set based on the info I have seen so far.
Quote from: Marleycat;752791If there are no forums what is the internet good for?
Porn and LOLcats. As the good Lord intended.
Quote from: Spinachcat;752867Isn't that a problem when the new Starter Set for D&D isn't getting veteran gamers excited about buying it as a gift for their friends???
I know that if I was buying a 12 year old kid a RPG, it would not be this Starter Set based on the info I have seen so far.
.
it might be a problem if lots of 45 year old D&D players have large numbers of 12 year old friends. You thought the satanic panic was bad just think how that one would read in the tabloids. :)
so you wouldn't buy this even at $12:50 on amazon?
What about telling the kid to check ou the free D&D Basic game on line?
I agree a URL to free content isn't a great gift and there is a market for gifts that cost 19:99 or 24:99 that middle aged men can give to young boys they want to invite over to play at their house sometime. I think D&D might be missing a trick here as I don't think the Starter set or the basic game are filling that niche.
Gotta say, after all this time of Sacroscant and Mistwell being the only two folks really advocating for 5e here, it's surprising at how many gamers are coming out of the woodwork to reveal they were just itching to gift the Starter Set to their nieces, nephews, and other small children acquaintances...if only it came with chargen!
Is LoLcats where everyone gets those wonderful GrumpyCat pictures?
Quote from: Iosue;752873Gotta say, after all this time of Sacroscant and Mistwell being the only two folks really advocating for 5e here, it's surprising at how many gamers are coming out of the woodwork to reveal they were just itching to gift the Starter Set to their nieces, nephews, and other small children acquaintances...if only it came with chargen!
It may mean something.... :eek:
Quote from: Iosue;752873Gotta say, after all this time of Sacroscant and Mistwell being the only two folks really advocating for 5e here, it's surprising at how many gamers are coming out of the woodwork to reveal they were just itching to gift the Starter Set to their nieces, nephews, and other small children acquaintances...if only it came with chargen!
(http://i.imgur.com/lREm0f9.gif)
Quote from: Iosue;752873Gotta say, after all this time of Sacroscant and Mistwell being the only two folks really advocating for 5e here, it's surprising at how many gamers are coming out of the woodwork to reveal they were just itching to gift the Starter Set to their nieces, nephews, and other small children acquaintances...if only it came with chargen!
Are you suggesting some people here might be arguing in... Bad faith?
:)
I agree for the sake of completion it would be great to have chargen too. But there is a large gap between perfection and disaster.
Basic D&D will be its own thing and levels 1 - 20 will be available online for free:
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140527
VS
For people not comfortable with using online content, everything will be in the PHB. Just like it was for AD&D, and has been for every edition of D&D released in the last 30 years.
Quote from: Haffrung;752922For people not comfortable with using online content, everything will be in the PHB. Just like it was for AD&D, and has been for every edition of D&D released in the last 30 years.
That alleviates any concerns I have in that regard.
Quote from: Haffrung;752922For people not comfortable with using online content, everything will be in the PHB. Just like it was for AD&D, and has been for every edition of D&D released in the last 30 years.
Plus it can be easily printed out for those who can't or simply don't want to get it online.
VS
Quote from: VengerSatanis;752927Plus it can be easily printed out for those who can't or simply don't want to get it online.
VS
I'm thinking of getting the free PDF and printing it to see for myself. I don't hate 5E but I get the feeling at one of "my" gaming groups that it's taken off, and that part of why it's taken off is my fiancée's opposition to Wizard's marketing practices as shown by 4E (note - not to 5E itself!).
I wouldn't mind it if I didn't have to work evenings and weekends. Stupid retail.
Quote from: Fiasco;752888I agree for the sake of completion it would be great to have chargen too. But there is a large gap between perfection and disaster.
Nobody's talking of a disaster. It is a disappointment, a fuck up on WotC's part, and for the life of me I still cannot understand why character generation rules are not in the starter set to begin with. I'll keep saying it.
Is it the end of the world? No. Do I want WotC to fail? No. Will I get the three core books despite Basic being free in PDF? Yes I will.
The Basic game being free in PDF is very good news for the fans, and for WotC potentially. Now if that Basic game could be packaged in print as well, after the release of the big three, that'd be cool.
So much for chargen not being online only. :(
It is nice that the basic game will be free but printing it out will be almost as costly to the end user as buying a printed copy due to economy of scale and whatnot.
Character generation is important to impart upon new players and it has nothing at all to do with optimization or assembling mechanical tidbits. You roll stats, select a class/race, and equip the character. No matter how many or how few moving parts the character has the important bit is that it is YOURS.
Having 20 or more things to decide upon does not in any way whatsoever make your character unique. Unless no other player has access to the same options as you when making a character, then your character (in a mechanical sense) is no more unique mechanically than a B/X fighter. If Joe builds a particular style of fighter, and Bob likes those options and builds an exact mechanical replica of Joe's character, exactly where have all those decisions brought us? Right back to square one as far as individuality is concerned. Looking at both character sheets without names it would next to impossible to tell the two apart.
What makes a character special, especially a first character, isn't the availability of mechanical options, its that the character sprang to life from the player's imagination. What didn't exist moments before now suddenly does.
Being handed a character someone else made up has its place in some types of games, especially public play games with strict time limits. I just don't know if D&D would have been quite as exciting an experience if my first game began with " you wanna be the car, the thimble, the shoe, or the dog?"
Given that the new Basic D&D will be as feature-rich as it is supposed to be, and that moreover it is free, I'm entirely at peace with the chargen rules being a download-rather-than-included part of the Starter set.
I would like to see Basic as a retail product but a picture is forming as to why they're not doing that...
AD&D and Basic D&D were...unique. Gary once told me flat out that the Basic/AD&D sales did not cannibalize one another, rather, that many people bought both and were happy with it, and mixed and matched.
That time has passed.
If we were in say the 1990s, a full-bore Basic ruleset might live comfortably with an "A" D&D - and, in fact, it did! - but I understand it now.
1e AD&D will always be my go-to game and my passion but I'm back behind 5e as a good "2nd" D&D.
So I'm excited again.
I was thinking about picking up the Starter Set, but it sounds like the free PDF is more like what I'd want to look over to decide about 5th.
It's still a little unclear from the announcement, but from this:
QuoteIf Basic D&D is the equivalent of the classic Rules Cyclopedia, then the three core rulebooks are analogous to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Want more character options? Pick up a Player’s Handbook. Looking for more critters for your campaign? The Monster Manual has you covered. Want to sculpt a unique campaign? Pick up the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Still, Basic D&D is the true heart of the game and could easily provide a lifetime of gaming.
(Italics from the original, boldface is mine.)It looks like their Basic D&D will be playable by itself. Has anyone heard how long it is? Page count wise? They say it's 15% of the Player's Handbook and I guess a little of the Monster Manual from what I bolded above, but I hadn't seen a page count yet.
I guess the one thing this (good) news doesn't do is make me any more interested in the Starter Set.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;752943So much for chargen not being online only. :(
It is nice that the basic game will be free but printing it out will be almost as costly to the end user as buying a printed copy due to economy of scale and whatnot.
Character generation is important to impart upon new players and it has nothing at all to do with optimization or assembling mechanical tidbits. You roll stats, select a class/race, and equip the character. No matter how many or how few moving parts the character has the important bit is that it is YOURS.
Yeah, but the Pundit nailed it upthread (was it this thread?) The Starter really isn't for "us" and today's kids won't think twice about needing a PDF. My son doesn't take a book to bed with him. He takes his tablet.
As for myself, I'll buy the PH and assuming I like it enough to run it, I'll take out whatever bits I want, mash em up with whatever other gaming shit I please, and go from there.
Quote from: Warlord Kro;752998I was thinking about picking up the Starter Set, but it sounds like the free PDF is more like what I'd want to look over to decide about 5th.
It's still a little unclear from the announcement, but from this:
(Italics from the original, boldface is mine.)
It looks like their Basic D&D will be playable by itself. Has anyone heard how long it is? Page count wise? They say it's 15% of the Player's Handbook and I guess a little of the Monster Manual from what I bolded above, but I hadn't seen a page count yet.
I guess the one thing this (good) news doesn't do is make me any more interested in the Starter Set.
People have theorized it would be 15% of the PHB, DMG, and MM when finished so around 144ish pages long.
Quote from: Endless Flight;752746What if some kid's parents are really strict about computer access?
Those kids will get the Forbidden Things from their friends' houses, like they have since time immemorial.
Quote from: Marleycat;753014People have theorized it would be 15% of the PHB, DMG, and MM when finished so around 144ish pages long.
144 pages isn't too bad a length really - Moldvay, Cook, and Marsh did it in 128, but I guess six more levels could easily cost 16 pages.
I like the sound of the 5th Ed "Basic D&D" product so far - free, low page count, complete (by complete I mean playable) rules, not too fiddly. Of course, there's no way to know if it'll be something I'd like until I actually pick it up. But I am looking forward to that PDF release.
Quote from: Warlord Kro;753091144 pages isn't too bad a length really - Moldvay, Cook, and Marsh did it in 128, but I guess six more levels could easily cost 16 pages.
I like the sound of the 5th Ed "Basic D&D" product so far - free, low page count, complete (by complete I mean playable) rules, not too fiddly. Of course, there's no way to know if it'll be something I'd like until I actually pick it up. But I am looking forward to that PDF release.
How high did Moldvay go? Because when finished the BASIC rules allow for 1-20th level.
Moldvay (B of B/X) was 1-3, with Marsh/Cook (X of B/X) going from 4-14
I see where he got the numbers now thanks.
Quote from: Marleycat;753104I see where he got the numbers now thanks.
Rules Cyclopedia was 304 pages. Though sans the maps and appendices and such it was closer to something like 270 pages.
Quote from: Mistwell;752577It is. We're dealing with bad faith at this point. Same sort of passive aggressive bullshit you find on EnWorld and RPG.net, only it's here now, and even some moderators are engaging in it just like fucking Umbran.
That's a load of bull. I think the starter set should include printed character creation rules because it'd be better for the game, the hobby, that product, and WotC. No hidden agenda. It's all there in black in white.
Now having said that, the Basic set is fucking awesome.
Quote from: dar;753209That's a load of bull. I think the starter set should include printed character creation rules because it'd be better for the game, the hobby, that product, and WotC. No hidden agenda. It's all there in black in white.
Now having said that, the Basic set is fucking awesome.
I don't think he's referring to the people who think there should have been a chargen (even a basic rules page) included in the starter set. I mean, has anyone said that they
don't want chargen in the rules?
No, I think his comment was in reference to the comments like:
"The starter box should die in fire for not having chargen"
"If you play with pre-gens, that defeats the entire point of the game."
"Without chargen, the starter box is little different than a boardgame."
And more to the point of his mod reference, one certain mod who continues to argue that only the 5e defenders (or 5anatics as he put) are throwing fits and blowing things out of proportion while conveniently ignoring comments like those I just mentioned (which are obviously comments that are blowing things out of proportion).
On a different subject, I saw this posted and thought it was interesting
Quote from: Rygar;6306593I disagree. There will be an OGL, but it'll be very different from what people are expecting.
WOTC is going to go the Steam or App store route and let people sell their works through their own webstore for a cut of the profits. It'll give visibility to products that otherwise never would've been seen by anyone, "Crowd" source adventure development so that TPP's and creative individuals can easily get their product in front of players, and then WOTC won't have to worry about budgeting writers saving alot of money. It would plug the only hole in the original OGL, that WOTC didn't receive any revenue from it, while being a huge benefit to TPP who traditionally have trouble with visibility, and invests some number of users as content creators.
I think we'll also see WOTC leverage its extensive printing contracts to offer a print on demand service for the above material and Dungeon/Dragon.
A *really* smart WOTC would cut a contract with Paizo that treats them as a special tier partner with a higher percentage of sales, giving them back Dungeon/Dragon duties, and letting them sell Pathfinder through WOTC's store as well.
There've been a number of clues that this is what is coming...
-They've said several times that there'll be an OGL and it is still being finalized.
-At GenCon last year they commented (paraphrased) "We know people want to sell or give away their creations, and we're looking into how to support that".
-They keep referring to D&D as a "Brand" not a product line.
-It looks like 5th edition will use something other than DDI given their recent comments about the 4th edition character builder and subscriptions. A 5th edition character builder is fairly useless since there's little complexity. So what is the online goal? What product is being made?
Quote from: Mistwell;753253On a different subject, I saw this posted and thought it was interesting
A *really* smart WOTC would cut a contract with Paizo that treats them as a special tier partner with a higher percentage of sales, giving them back Dungeon/Dragon duties, and letting them sell Pathfinder through WOTC's store as well.
I think the amicable relationship is well and truly over. I mean even if things are amicable on a personal level between key individuals, the businesses are now clearly in competition.
Interesting speculation, but the supporting evidence looks pretty thin. Seems more like what the poster (and many others, no doubt) would like to see.
Quote from: The_Shadow;753255I think the amicable relationship is well and truly over. I mean even if things are amicable on a personal level between key individuals, the businesses are now clearly in competition.
It is my honest opinion they are not. I really think WOTC is focusing on brand over game, and I really thing Paizo is focusing on game over brand. We on the internet love to talk about the competition between the two, but I don't think they think of it that way at all. Every single panel they're in together they mention this, and yet every single time partisans on the internet ignore it or outright disbelieve it.
Quote from: Bobloblah;753256Interesting speculation, but the supporting evidence looks pretty thin. Seems more like what the poster (and many others, no doubt) would like to see.
I was predicting the exact Basic game we got, over a year ago. I was told it was wishing thinking based on thin evidence back then by pretty much everyone. I am not going to dismiss this theory just because it's something I want to see.
Quote from: Mistwell;753274I was predicting the exact Basic game we got, over a year ago. I was told it was wishing thinking based on thin evidence back then by pretty much everyone. I am not going to dismiss this theory just because it's something I want to see.
I think you're probably correct. I expect movies, CCG, boardgames and accessories to be the money makers. Enough so they can use the RPG as the pivot point like B&M stores. That's why the push for coherent organized play with seperate but baseline rules. You got to hook'em before you can sell them something.
Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon. They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age, and what use would they have for an online magazine?
Paizo especially doesn't need to sell anything through a WotC portal.
Quote from: kythri;753284Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon. They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age, and what use would they have for an online magazine?
Paizo especially doesn't need to sell anything through a WotC portal.
Agreed, but stranger alliances have happened. Imagine adventure paths having a 5E PDF option. It might never happen, but I think Paizo would put business success first. If nothing else it might help make Pathfinder the end of the complexity chain of games.
Quote from: kythri;753284Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon. They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age, and what use would they have for an online magazine?
Paizo especially doesn't need to sell anything through a WotC portal.
I wasn't speaking to that part..but I can see a scenario where they might. If they can promote Pathfinder right in Dragon from WOTC? Take advantage of all those marketing dollars Hasbro will pour into the D&D brand and get Pathfinder exposure in the primary source of communication with fans in those magazines? I can see them being interested in that. I am not predicting it will happen, just I can see it.
Ultimately this is about money. If both parties think they can make more of it through a joint venture, then the odds of that joint venture happening go up.
Quote from: Votan;753294Agreed, but stranger alliances have happened. Imagine adventure paths having a 5E PDF option. It might never happen, but I think Paizo would put business success first. If nothing else it might help make Pathfinder the end of the complexity chain of games.
14 years later and WOTC is STILL finding ways to fuck with Talsorian. Not all dealings with WOTC go well. Though that is the only one I am aware of where dealings with WOTC went less than optimal.
Business-wise a partnership for Pazio with WOTC could be a poor choice if they are aware of WOTC's rep for poor marketing. Working with WOTC garners Pazio... what?
I think Pazio will adapt a wait and see stance to see what the player reaction is to Next. They wouldnt want to hitch their wagon to a possibly leaky boat.
Quote from: Omega;75332214 years later and WOTC is STILL finding ways to fuck with Talsorian. Not all dealings with WOTC go well. Though that is the only one I am aware of where dealings with WOTC went less than optimal.
Eh? I wasn't aware of any beef between WotC and R. Talsorian. What's the deal?
Quote from: kythri;753284Paizo doesn't want or need Dragon and Dungeon. They certainly wouldn't be selling a print magazine in this day and age
Their numbered Pathfinder Adventure Path series is actually an expensive print magazine in all but name. It's a brilliant trick. 96 pages, but only half of that is the adventure; it's heavily padded out with fiction, monster write ups, various articles etc. It's basically Dungeon magazine without the ads.
I could definitely see a case for them complementing it with a renewed print Dragon magazine, were they offered the license.
Quote from: Votan;753294Agreed, but stranger alliances have happened. Imagine adventure paths having a 5E PDF option. It might never happen, but I think Paizo would put business success first. If nothing else it might help make Pathfinder the end of the complexity chain of games.
I don't think this would happen. If Paizo supports 5th edition, they're encouraging their fans to switch to that edition. If they only support Pathfinder, people that value the adventures and campaign support products will have to choose - either stay with the Pathfinder products they love or go to 5th edition and forget about that type of support.
It's not in Paizo's interest to fracture the fan base. Lisa Stevens knows all about this, so I can't imagine she'd move in that direction.
WotC still has a lot of bad will with the way they moved from 3.x to 4th. Paizo captured a large amount of good will when it appeared they had been treated shabbily - and they've largely maintained it.
Ultimately, I'm more interested in a Pathfinder II than in D&D Next. Paizo has a better track record of supporting their game line. I was disastisfied with Pathfinder because it chose not to address too many issues with 3.x - but if Pathfinder II is a 'real improvement', I'd be sorely tempted to adopt it.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;753410I don't think this would happen. If Paizo supports 5th edition, they're encouraging their fans to switch to that edition. If they only support Pathfinder, people that value the adventures and campaign support products will have to choose - either stay with the Pathfinder products they love or go to 5th edition and forget about that type of support.
Or they can do their own conversion. I'm running Rise of the Runelords in 1e/OSRIC, no problem. If anything it takes less time to restat for 1e than it does to fully read a PF stat block; running PF I often miss stuff.
If 5e is reasonably simple then it could likewise be used for PF adventures.
Quote from: S'mon;753354Their numbered Pathfinder Adventure Path series is actually an expensive print magazine in all but name. It's a brilliant trick. 96 pages, but only half of that is the adventure; it's heavily padded out with fiction, monster write ups, various articles etc. It's basically Dungeon magazine without the ads.
I could definitely see a case for them complementing it with a renewed print Dragon magazine, were they offered the license.
Given that they've stated there would be no way they'd do that again? I don't.
They've made a number of posts detailing what a poor profit model publishing a magazine provides, and they've explicitly declared a number of times that they have little to no interest in licensed products any longer.
Quite frankly, based on their comments over the last seven years regarding the magazines, I don't even think they'd publish them if they were GIVEN the magazines. I don't believe those magazine titles hold any value, past nostalgia, for the Paizo folks.
Quote from: Mistwell;753274I was predicting the exact Basic game we got, over a year ago. I was told it was wishing thinking based on thin evidence back then by pretty much everyone. I am not going to dismiss this theory just because it's something I want to see.
Ah! So, obviously, all speculation is actually going to happen? That's idiotic. Some speculation is much more plausible. A year ago a portion of the game being freely released was plausible. A marriage between Paizo and WotC, less so. This isn't to say that it won't happen - who knows, stranger things have happened - but that I don't find the speculation plausible, or the argument behind it compelling. There are other points raised that are more believable (like a common webstore), although even there I don't think the arguments given make much sense. We can all make all sorts of wild, speculative guesses; if we make enough of them, some will turn out to be correct. That doesn't really say much about the arguments made for those theories, or evidence presented, beforehand.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;753410I don't think this would happen. If Paizo supports 5th edition, they're encouraging their fans to switch to that edition. If they only support Pathfinder, people that value the adventures and campaign support products will have to choose - either stay with the Pathfinder products they love or go to 5th edition and forget about that type of support.
Paizo survives largely off a fanbase generated by another company. Yes, they have great customer support and loyal fans. But RPG players relentlessly attrit away as they get older. How is Pathfinder going to create enough new gamers to replace the ones they're losing every year? The same way every single other RPG does - by selling stuff to bored or disaffected D&D players.
It's in the interests of Paizo that a healthy and successful D&D continues to draw tens of thousands of new people into the hobby. Pathfinder may be well-established in the existing hardcore RPG crowd, but it has only a tiny fraction of the name recognition of D&D. In in the long run, Pathfinder's fortunes are tethered to those of D&D.
Ah alright. Mistwell your of the hook for now. Tired of being lumped in the same groups as some other assholes who are clearly not my kind of asshole.
OGL. I keep hearing it like it is going to happen. I hope so. I sure hope so.
And I think a thriving D&D is only good for Paizo.
Quote from: Bobloblah;753435Ah! So, obviously, all speculation is actually going to happen? That's idiotic.
It would be if that's what I said.
I said I am not going to dismiss it. I am following the golden rule here - I didn't like it when people dismissed my theory out of hand even though my theory turned out to be true (much later), so I am not going to dismiss out of hand someone else's theory that could be true (even if I think it's unlikely).
You conflating me saying I am not going to dismiss it, with me saying "it must be TRUE!" seems pretty damn idiotic to me.
QuoteThis isn't to say that it won't happen - who knows, stranger things have happened
Which is my position as well, so I am glad we agree even if you were unaware we were agreeing.
Then why did you take issue with what I said in the first place when you quoted me, you idiot? I didn't start off by dismissing the quoted post out of hand, I pointed out that the speculation isn't based on much (other than what might appear to be wishful thinking). Which it isn't. Holding up the fact that you don't "dismiss" speculation for which there is neither evidence nor much plausibility doesn't make you look virtuous, it makes you look foolish. Or like a White Knight.
I'm beginning to see why you get dismissed as doing nothing but white knight-ing; you can't help yourself, can you?
Quote from: Bobloblah;753582Then why did you take issue with what I said in the first place when you quoted me, you idiot? I didn't start off by dismissing the quoted post out of hand, I pointed out that the speculation isn't based on much (other than what might appear to be wishful thinking). Which it isn't. Holding up the fact that you don't "dismiss" speculation for which there is neither evidence nor much plausibility doesn't make you look virtuous, it makes you look foolish. Or like a White Knight.
I'm beginning to see why you get dismissed as doing nothing but white knight-ing; you can't help yourself, can you?
You did appear to be dismissing it, which is why I replied that way.
To be clear, you and I hold the same position on the same issue, and I am a white knight and you are not. Is that correct?
Yes, that is. You know why? Because I haven't rushed off to defend the post. To people agreeing with me, no less.
Quote from: Haffrung;752569Character generation will be in the PHB - same place its been in every edition of D&D. The Starter Set is for total newbs. The confusion over this strikes me as willful at this point.
I'm not referring to where the chargen is located, I was implying that if its like PF & 4e where the need because of so many variables from feats, math & spells (aka. Power Cards 4e) are required to be written up and take you a life time to do without the help of a PC program, then the game is too complex and needs to be stripped down a tad, to where a human being can put together a character on a two sided sheet in less than an hour, with just his paper and pencil.
I also noticed, why are they not releasing all 3 books PHB, DMG & MM all at the same time, why spread out over 3 months, what damn use is that to anyone? I think that is just the damn stupidest thing anyone can do for a game that requires all three books.
OK I got my PHB, we can make characters but we have to wait until November before we can actually play, thats when we'll have the DMG and MM at last. Fuckin' dumb.
Actually that was pretty much what happened with AD&D1e.
Best idea? Probably not. But they survived somehow...
Quote from: flyingcircus;753651I also noticed, why are they not releasing all 3 books PHB, DMG & MM all at the same time, why spread out over 3 months, what damn use is that to anyone? I think that is just the damn stupidest thing anyone can do for a game that requires all three books.
OK I got my PHB, we can make characters but we have to wait until November before we can actually play, thats when we'll have the DMG and MM at last. Fuckin' dumb.
Why the spacing? Simple so the books aren't a clusterfuck like 4e and to a lesser extent 3e. Also what part of you don't need the PHB/DMG/MM to play or run the game aren't you understanding? I thought geeks were generally smart and reasonably proficient with computers and the internet?
I kind of thought you'd know about spacing the books out given you're an AD&D player, silly me obviously.
Quote from: flyingcircus;753651I also noticed, why are they not releasing all 3 books PHB, DMG & MM all at the same time, why spread out over 3 months, what damn use is that to anyone? I think that is just the damn stupidest thing anyone can do for a game that requires all three books.
OK I got my PHB, we can make characters but we have to wait until November before we can actually play, thats when we'll have the DMG and MM at last. Fuckin' dumb.
If you hadbeen keeping up with the announcements, then you would know that the basic game would be free and available when the PHB is released.
The PHB, MM, and DMG will provide additional content and will not be required to play at all.
Quote from: flyingcircus;753651I also noticed, why are they not releasing all 3 books PHB, DMG & MM all at the same time, why spread out over 3 months, what damn use is that to anyone? I think that is just the damn stupidest thing anyone can do for a game that requires all three books.
OK I got my PHB, we can make characters but we have to wait until November before we can actually play, thats when we'll have the DMG and MM at last. Fuckin' dumb.
They explained why. It's for editing. They can release them as-ready, or wait until all are ready and release all at once. They opted to release as-ready. And since we will have the Basic edition at that time, we will have plenty of monsters to work with when the PHB comes out.
For what it is worth, 1e took YEARS to come out, and 3.0e was released on this same schedule. Only 2e and 4e had an all-at-once schedule.
Quote from: Warthur;753336Eh? I wasn't aware of any beef between WotC and R. Talsorian. What's the deal?
They clashed over particulars on Netrunner which ended with WOTC chucking product into an incinerator amongst other brilliant moves. Years later WOTC sells off the game to FFG. Keeping the name, but removing the Cyberpunk RPG refferences. Apparently Talsorian got nothing out of that deal. Theres been some other jabs at them too. But the Netrunner one is the big one that comes to mind.
Why? Havent a clue. I dont recall FASA having that level of trouble with WOTC.
WOTCs partnership with White Wolf did not go so well either with some executive meddling on d20 GW. Otherwise seemed ok?
FFG though seems to be doing ok dealing with them. Aside from the Merchant of Venus incident which was Hasbro in action rather than WOTC.
Quote from: Omega;753660WOTCs partnership with White Wolf did not go so well either with some executive meddling on d20 GW. Otherwise seemed ok.
Vampire CCG had to go on hiatus, again, because WotC would not come to an agreement with WW about renewal of the Deckmaster trademark. There's only three Deckmaster games, MtG, VtES, and Netrunner. I believe it is this year that the trademark becomes open, but WW/Onyx Path (or CCP) doesn't seem to have reissuing a CCG as a priority. We'll see...
Quote from: Mistwell;753659For what it is worth, 1e took YEARS to come out, and 3.0e was released on this same schedule. Only 2e and 4e had an all-at-once schedule.
Make that 4E only. I remember getting the 2E PHB in March and the DMG not being released until June.
Would have been nice to have the chargen rules in the box, and frankly it feels a bit weird.
In a less old fart way of thinking, we live in 2014. Having the character generation be online makes quite a bit of sense.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;753723Make that 4E only. I remember getting the 2E PHB in March and the DMG not being released until June.
3.5 also had a simultaneous release, but it's debatable as to whether that counts as a new edition.
And originally, 4E was supposed to be a staggered release over 3 months, but for some reason--I don't know if it was production issues, fan demand or something else--they pushed the PHB back a month and pulled the MM (I think) forward a month so all three released at once.
Quote from: kaervas;753728In a less old fart way of thinking, we live in 2014. Having the character generation be online makes quite a bit of sense.
Makes it easy to take it away later...
Quote from: kythri;753741Makes it easy to take it away later...
Once something is released for free on the internet, it never goes away.
Quote from: kaervas;753728In a less old fart way of thinking, we live in 2014. Having the character generation be online makes quite a bit of sense.
Of course... it's the 'only online and not in the box' that cause the turmoil.
Quote from: Simlasa;753814Of course... it's the 'only online and not in the box' that cause the turmoil.
You could always print it out like a normal human does. Set your printer up to use less ink or spend $15 at the library or something.
Quote from: Marleycat;753822You could always print it out like a normal human does. Set your printer up to use less ink or spend $15 at the library or something.
Sure... but aesthetically that printout is not going to fit in well with the other contents of the box... a bunch of loose pages... or bound in some different way.
I'm an artist/graphics person and it just bugs me when things aren't cohesive that way.
Quote from: Simlasa;753827Sure... but aesthetically that printout is not going to fit in well with the other contents of the box... a bunch of loose pages... or bound in some different way.
I'm an artist/graphics person and it just bugs me when things aren't cohesive that way.
I know it's a bit inconvenient but there are workarounds and the product is free. I would bug WotC to sell it POD or go to Kinko's and get it bound up professionally if it's a huge concern. Or maybe use a 3-hole punch and put the whole thing in a 3 ring binder with some seperators. But that's just me.
Quote from: Marleycat;753830I know it's a bit inconvenient but there are workarounds and the product is free. I would bug WotC to sell it POD or go to Kinko's and get it bound up professionally if it's a huge concern. Or maybe use a 3-hole punch and put the whole thing in a 3 ring binder with some seperators. But that's just me.
It's not that it's inconvenient... and I know I could have it nicely bound at Kinkos... but it wouldn't match, would it?
Would you notice/care if the PHB/DMG/MM were each of different dimensions... didn't line up on a bookshelf? What if the fonts/D&D logos on them were all different?
That's the sort of stuff I mean when I say 'aesthetics'... and yeah, it's a little thing, but at my low level of need/interest in 5e it's enough to keep me off. There are a lot of great/better options out there... including Basic once it takes on full content.
Quote from: Simlasa;753858It's not that it's inconvenient... and I know I could have it nicely bound at Kinkos... but it wouldn't match, would it?
Would you notice/care if the PHB/DMG/MM were each of different dimensions... didn't line up on a bookshelf? What if the fonts/D&D logos on them were all different?
That's the sort of stuff I mean when I say 'aesthetics'... and yeah, it's a little thing, but at my low level of need/interest in 5e it's enough to keep me off. There are a lot of great/better options out there... including Basic once it takes on full content.
I do get you but it is true that Mearls did say they would look into putting into a hardbound book when directly asked. So it may be a moot point in a year and you would have your book on the shelf.
Quote from: Marleycat;753864I do get you but it is true that Mearls did say they would look into putting into a hardbound book when directly asked. So it may be a moot point in a year and you would have your book on the shelf.
So in a year I'll buy that, if it appears. Foregoing the Starter entirely.
@Haffrung
Ultimately attrition may be an issue, but I think Pathfinder has grown both in Player base and product sales. They don't have to release sales figures, but I don't think they need D&D to survive. The old rules don't apply.
They may be growing in a shrinking hobby, but they seem to be doing alright.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;7537393.5 also had a simultaneous release, but it's debatable as to whether that counts as a new edition.
And originally, 4E was supposed to be a staggered release over 3 months, but for some reason--I don't know if it was production issues, fan demand or something else--they pushed the PHB back a month and pulled the MM (I think) forward a month so all three released at once.
3 months extra editing on the 4e books might have saved a lot of grief, so I guess WoTC may have learned a lesson.
Quote from: Marleycat;753864I do get you but it is true that Mearls did say they would look into putting into a hardbound book when directly asked. So it may be a moot point in a year and you would have your book on the shelf.
I may skim a pdf but I'm about 20 times more likely to run 5e if I can get a printed & bound hardcopy of the Basic rules. PoD would be ok. So I'm looking forward to this being available; my long running 4e campaign will end around early 2016 and I'm open to a much simpler system for the campaign after that.
Quote from: S'mon;7539573 months extra editing on the 4e books might have saved a lot of grief, so I guess WoTC may have learned a lesson.
See, for instance, skill challenges (the rules for which I believe were framed in the DMG). It's bad enough that the mechanic for "anything which isn't a fight or a conversation" was tucked away, but the original version wasn't remotely fit for purpose and they brought out errata for it almost immediately, which not only started the errata avalanche for 4E but also really sucked the credibility out of the game. After all, you have this RPG which has very obviously been designed from the ground up with an eye to mechanical rigorousness - not my cup of tea, granted, but some people dig that and it's a legitimate preference - and you release rules which are
that sloppy? You have to see that as a huge failure even if you're 100% onboard with the mechanical approach of 4E.
Of course, so far as I'm aware none of the subsequent versions of the skill challenge rule ever quite managed to feel right, but if 3 extra months of editing could have stopped the insta-errata debacle that'd have been something at least.
Quote from: Warthur;753967Of course, so far as I'm aware none of the subsequent versions of the skill challenge rule ever quite managed to feel right, but if 3 extra months of editing could have stopped the insta-errata debacle that'd have been something at least.
Who knows, 3 extra months might have persuaded them to junk skill challenges as a failed mechanic, and avoid the whole issue. Mearls went to great efforts in Dungeon magazine trying to present SCs as useful and valuable, a huge waste of time IMO.
Editing and proofing three 320 page books is an enormous undertaking. Releasing them all on the same day is simply foolish - WotC would need to hire several editors on a short-term contract, and having a single editor properly oversee everything would be impossible. It would need to be run as three largely independent projects - a big mistake for an integrated game system. Every publisher worth their salt tries to stagger the release of this sort of document if at all possible.
New Q&A with Rodney answering a few questions about the Starter set and Basic: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dndqa/20140530
Well whatever a free PDF is stupid IMO, rather have a bound book. I hate PDF's they're more trouble than they're worth in the long run. 2nd a staggered release IMO is also dumb assery, which means if I even get into it, I will just wait until the whole thing is released before I even drop one cent on it, their up front loss I guess. AD&D 1e (BTW, I bought all at once, same for 2nd & 3rd editions), I hate unfinished works and wont invest in a product unless it has everything needed to game with. I'm not interested in a starter set, never buy them, never will, they're always vaporware to me.
Quote from: S'mon;753959I may skim a pdf but I'm about 20 times more likely to run 5e if I can get a printed & bound hardcopy of the Basic rules. PoD would be ok.
Yup, same here. I'm good with reading PDFs but I generally want hardcopy for the table.
Quote from: flyingcircus;754423Well whatever a free PDF is stupid IMO, rather have a bound book. I hate PDF's they're more trouble than they're worth in the long run. 2nd a staggered release IMO is also dumb assery, which means if I even get into it, I will just wait until the whole thing is released before I even drop one cent on it, their up front loss I guess. AD&D 1e (BTW, I bought all at once, same for 2nd & 3rd editions), I hate unfinished works and wont invest in a product unless it has everything needed to game with. I'm not interested in a starter set, never buy them, never will, they're always vaporware to me.
Then don't. All you sound like right now is a spoiled brat. Because you already know the reason they are doing it and it's a good one. Obviously you have a computer so print the PDF out and stop whining. Also Mearls already said they are looking into putting the whole thing into a hardbook book. So my guess is that it will happen because they already know the demand is there.
I don't see how you could buy 1e or 3e at once when it came out given the former took years to come out and 3e has the exact publishing roll out as 5e. Not certain about 2e because we mixed and matched 1/2e so much it was irrelevant actually.
Let me sum up the past 69 pages:
(http://content7.flixster.com/movie/11/17/36/11173661_800.jpg)
Quote from: flyingcircus;754423Well whatever a free PDF is stupid IMO, rather have a bound book. I hate PDF's they're more trouble than they're worth in the long run. 2nd a staggered release IMO is also dumb assery, which means if I even get into it, I will just wait until the whole thing is released before I even drop one cent on it, their up front loss I guess. AD&D 1e (BTW, I bought all at once, same for 2nd & 3rd editions), I hate unfinished works and wont invest in a product unless it has everything needed to game with. I'm not interested in a starter set, never buy them, never will, they're always vaporware to me.
There are good reasons to prefer things like printed products and simultaneous releases and such. But presented as you just presented them, I have a sudden lack of sympathy.
Quote from: Mistwell;754469There are good reasons to prefer things like printed products and simultaneous releases and such. But presented as you just presented them, I have a sudden lack of sympathy.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTR7-0V8W4hpwDv3Gps33VLCVKB5bFAqz0_J3RWJp0M6eWOlxfR)
Quote from: Marleycat;754431Then don't. All you sound like right now is a spoiled brat. Because you already know the reason they are doing it and it's a good one. Obviously you have a computer so print the PDF out and stop whining. Also Mearls already said they are looking into putting the whole thing into a hardbook book. So my guess is that it will happen because they already know the demand is there.
I don't see how you could buy 1e or 3e at once when it came out given the former took years to come out and 3e has the exact publishing roll out as 5e. Not certain about 2e because we mixed and matched 1/2e so much it was irrelevant actually.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnYQMNkoZpgoQrIAu2BKFYRKoCGdi8SaTTS_ofqbQVrQGlMziN)
Quote from: Marleycat;754431I don't see how you could buy 1e or 3e at once when it came out given the former took years to come out and 3e has the exact publishing roll out as 5e. Not certain about 2e because we mixed and matched 1/2e so much it was irrelevant actually.
I could have sworn that the three core 3e products all came out at once, but I don't remember and am not going to bother researching it.
I do recall that the core 2e products came out at one month intervals over the summer of 1989. That was pretty convenient for me at the time because I was a jobless teen. It gave me a month to scrape together the $20+ tax for each product. (Well, really $20, $18, and $20)
That said, in the short term I think it's pretty stupid to release a new product in three parts over a span of time in this day and age. If I were to buy the game, I certainly wouldn't bother wasting my time on it until all three corebooks are out.
(http://i.imgur.com/ekavNrEl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/ekavNrE)
... I'm sorry, I saw we were posting funny pictures now and I wanted to get in on the fun.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;754515(http://i.imgur.com/ekavNrEl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/ekavNrE)
... I'm sorry, I saw we were posting funny pictures now and I wanted to get in on the fun.
It's probably a more constructive use of the bandwidth going into this thread, frankly.
Quote from: flyingcircus;754510(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnYQMNkoZpgoQrIAu2BKFYRKoCGdi8SaTTS_ofqbQVrQGlMziN)
You are so entertaining in a 12 year old kind of way. Kind of disappointed you're smack is on that level also. If you're going to talk the talk at least interest me bitch and start walking the walk. Dance monkey dance!!!
Quote from: Gabriel2;754512I could have sworn that the three core 3e products all came out at once, but I don't remember and am not going to bother researching it.
I do recall that the core 2e products came out at one month intervals over the summer of 1989. That was pretty convenient for me at the time because I was a jobless teen. It gave me a month to scrape together the $20+ tax for each product. (Well, really $20, $18, and $20)
That said, in the short term I think it's pretty stupid to release a new product in three parts over a span of time in this day and age. If I were to buy the game, I certainly wouldn't bother wasting my time on it until all three corebooks are out.
3.0 was in 1 month intervals 3.5 was like 4e at the same time. Ordinarily I would agree with you except WotC is using the internet and the traditional in conjunction.
Quote from: Marleycat;7545253.5 was like 4e at the same time.
That's probably what I'm dimly recalling then.
Quote from: Gabriel2;754529That's probably what I'm dimly recalling then.
Meh, like it's that important anyway.
Why are there still complaints on this forum?
Our very own RPGPundit, the Savior of D&D, has spoken and how dare any of you continue to dribble on with your blatherings. The box without chargen is NOT crippleware and the PDF with 1/5th the game is going to save the hobby. Goalposts, you say? What goalposts? Our Savior, when not saving D&D, also took the time to slay all the goalposts.
But as for the staggered release, I don't blame them. They want to sell Starter Boxes.
That said, I think WotC is losing money by not selling the Basic PDF (don't call it a quickstart) in dead tree, at least via POD.
Quote from: Spinachcat;754584Why are there still complaints on this forum?
Our very own RPGPundit, the Savior of D&D, has spoken and how dare any of you continue to dribble on with your blatherings. The box without chargen is NOT crippleware and the PDF with 1/5th the game is going to save the hobby. Goalposts, you say? What goalposts? Our Savior, when not saving D&D, also took the time to slay all the goalposts.
But as for the staggered release, I don't blame them. They want to sell Starter Boxes.
That said, I think WotC is losing money by not selling the Basic PDF (don't call it a quickstart) in dead tree, at least via POD.
You mad bro?
Quote from: Marleycat;754586You mad bro?
About what? I've already eaten my plate of makeup. I'm fucking beautiful on the inside now. My kidneys are porn star fuckable. You better start chewing on yours to catch up with me.
But let's play a game of let's pretend...appropriate for this site.
Just imagine if this level of "marketing genius" was done by White Wolf and what RPGPundit's response would have been. Or even if it was done by WotC, but without his consulting gig?
Somehow, I doubt we'd be hearing the same Kumbaya for a starter set without chargen and PDF quickstart.
c
Quote from: Spinachcat;754592About what? I've already eaten my plate of makeup. I'm fucking beautiful on the inside now. My kidneys are porn star fuckable. You better start chewing on yours to catch up with me.
But let's play a game of let's pretend...appropriate for this site.
Just imagine if this level of "marketing genius" was done by White Wolf and what RPGPundit's response would have been. Or even if it was done by WotC, but without his consulting gig?
Somehow, I doubt we'd be hearing the same Kumbaya for a starter set without chargen and PDF quickstart.
He already said they did everything ass backwards and he's 100% correct. Next?
Please stop posting pictures in lieu of content. Pundit no likey.
Quote from: Spinachcat;754592But let's play a game of let's pretend...appropriate for this site.
Just imagine if this level of "marketing genius" was done by White Wolf and what RPGPundit's response would have been. Or even if it was done by WotC, but without his consulting gig?
That's indeed the hundred dollar question. Very well put.
In terms of originality, it also hurts the cause if someone else (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4060/roleplaying-games/whither-the-new-gamer) put out a better articulated version of your 'vision for D&D' before you (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17027), and then claim it as your own. (See also here (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4050/roleplaying-games/essentials-starter-set).) And in contrast to Pundit, Justin Alexander has recordable evidence that his input shaped an edition of D&D.
I think it's hilarious what he said about 3e in 2007. My have times and expectations changed in 15 years.
Quote from: Windjammer;754659That's indeed the hundred dollar question. Very well put.
Yup.
This quote I saw elsewhere today seems apropo
"For fear of becoming dinosaurs we are turned into sheep."
Quote from: Spinachcat;754592...
Somehow, I doubt we'd be hearing the same Kumbaya for a starter set without chargen and PDF quickstart.
Pointless conjecture. If the Pundit hurts your butt so bad seek medical help or counseling. We don't give a fuck. Many of us have chimed in with our thoughts and positive kudos to WOTC on the approach. If you don't like Pundit, ignore him. What about the rest of the discussion? That goes to your boyfriend Windfucker or whatever he calls himself.
Quote from: Simlasa;754668Yup.
This quote I saw elsewhere today seems apropo
"For fear of becoming dinosaurs we are turned into sheep."
Exactly. How ironic. You don't think this applies to a bunch of people decrying WOTC's approach? Lamenting the lack of character creation in the Starter Set? Sharing pointless anecdotes about the "blissful past" and "remember that perfect boxed-set?" and "but that's it's always been done!" WOTC's plan is a brave one. They are not being sheep, doing the same old thing over and over again. They are taking a chance and trying to match modern expectations with the game. The Sheep are bitching about the plan. The Dinosaurs are extinct. WOTC has quietly evolved and flew out of the valley.
Just wave goodbye dudes and nibble on the dog-eared copies of your red-box books. Bahhhhhhh.
Quote from: Marleycat;754660I think it's hilarious what he said about 3e in 2007. My have times and expectations changed in 15 years.
What did he say?
Quote from: Raven;754693What did he say?
I went deeper into the site and read an article he said got his blog noticed something about matching your expectations about high level play circa 2007 in relation to him play testing 3.0 since 1999 and possibly consulting but that latter isn't clear. Anyway it was a breakdown of how awesome 3.0 was and balanced etc.
Quote from: trechriron;754688Exactly. How ironic. You don't think this applies to a bunch of people decrying WOTC's approach?
I think you misread the quote... or something.
Quote from: Simlasa;754788I think you misread the quote... or something.
No he didn't, Windjammer has a hate-on for Pundit something fierce and it's long standing and would be banned for that post at any RPG site beyond here. He's just good with passive aggressive bullshit. I keep waiting for him to grow a set and actually do something directly, it might be entertaining at least.
I mean we are talking about Justin Alexander here, come on he isn't an authority anymore then anyone else. He's just as vitriolic as Pundit. At least Pundit is entertaining when he goes full metal jacket much like Benoist. They aren't full of themselves just a bit passionate.
Trechriron is being purposely hyperbolic for effect and humor (he's trolling you and everybody else because it's just so easy). It's just how it works here.
Basically this place is like Adult Swim or the Wild West and you have to know what's bullshit or real on your own without a moderator telling you which is which.
Quote from: Marleycat;754790Basically this place is like Adult Swim or the Wild West and you have to know what's bullshit or real on your own without a moderator telling you which is which.
And thank goodness for that.
On the subject of hilarious old opinions preserved in amber on the internet, this 1998 review of Alternity by James Maliszewski (the Grognardia and former "OSR pope" guy) is quite revealing:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_943.phtml
Here are some prime quotes from it:
QuoteHaving done this much, players must choose a "profession," which is Alternity-speak for a (ominous music, please) character class... I imagine that a lot of people will react in horror at the rather retrograde notion of using character classes; I know that I did... The problem with this, however, is that many more experienced gamers might be unwilling to give Alternity a fair hearing because of its use what appear at first glance to be character classes. TSR may well have made the wide acceptance of Alternity more difficult as a result.
QuoteAgain, Alternity inexplicably employs the rather reactionary concept of "levels." Like the notion of professions, I see little reason why this was included in the game.
Just for the record, I actually learned a lot of interesting and useful things from James' blog. I just found is passive-aggressive zeal for the "one true way" of OSR a bit much.
Quote from: Marleycat;754523You are so entertaining in a 12 year old kind of way. Kind of disappointed you're smack is on that level also. If you're going to talk the talk at least interest me bitch and start walking the walk. Dance monkey dance!!!
Ewww good comeback...NOT!
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;754801And thank goodness for that.
On the subject of hilarious old opinions preserved in amber on the internet, this 1998 review of Alternity by James Maliszewski (the Grognardia and former "OSR pope" guy) is quite revealing:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_943.phtml
Here are some prime quotes from it:
Just for the record, I actually learned a lot of interesting and useful things from James' blog. I just found is passive-aggressive zeal for the "one true way" of OSR a bit much.
It just tells you that it's always better to be even tempered but on the internet if you do that you'll be ignored more often then not if you do that. So sometimes people make absolute statements just as an attention grabber.
Quote from: flyingcircus;754423AD&D 1e (BTW, I bought all at once . . .
That makes you a late adopter.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;754860That makes you a late adopter.
Or an at complete release adopter, if you bought all 3 in 79 ( with those that got the books as they were released being early adopters- glass half full and all that)
I was an actual late adopter. Was still playing with my B/X stuff until I got a huge stack of AD&D stuff in 83.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;754862Or an at complete release adopter, if you bought all 3 in 79 ( with those that got the books as they were released being early adopters- glass half full and all that)
I was an actual late adopter. Was still playing with my B/X stuff until I got a huge stack of AD&D stuff in 83.
Got the MM in 78 and was using it with the white bookset. Didn't see the DMG in our favorite local hybrid comic book store/rpg shop until 1980 though.
Quote from: GameDaddy;754907Got the MM in 78 and was using it with the white bookset. Didn't see the DMG in our favorite local hybrid comic book store/rpg shop until 1980 though.
LOL, I was the next generation after you, we had a whole Players Handbook to work with, but still no ... DMG .... yet...
(we used xerox copies of the saving throw and xp chart pages from Men & Magic, to supplement the Holmes Basic set). 10 cents a page. I don't even know what set they came from, they were probably copies of copies of copies, of copies.
What I want to know is: since Mearls flattered Pundit's ego by bringing him into the design process for this thing, is this going to become the D&D5e forum?
Because, fuck, I hope not.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;755015What I want to know is: since Mearls flattered Pundit's ego by bringing him into the design process for this thing, is this going to become the D&D5e forum?
Because, fuck, I hope not.
Just because its the new big release several message boards may become 5E fixated forums for a while, at least until all the hoopla dies down a bit. Once the new shiny has worn off it will become just another edition to use as nerdfight fodder just like all the others.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;755015What I want to know is: since Mearls flattered Pundit's ego by bringing him into the design process for this thing, is this going to become the D&D5e forum?
Because, fuck, I hope not.
Yeah, how shitty would it be if this became a forum for people to talk about the most popular RPG in the hobby? Better it stay a particularly snarky offshoot of the OSR.
Quote from: Haffrung;755033Yeah, how shitty would it be if this became a forum for people to talk about the most popular RPG in the hobby?
Isn't that the Paizo forums? :D
Quote from: Haffrung;755033Yeah, how shitty would it be if this became a forum for people to talk about the most popular RPG in the hobby? Better it stay a particularly snarky offshoot of the OSR.
As far as i can see there are only 2 OSR threads on the front page.
2/10.
Quote from: One Horse Town;755038As far as i can see there are only 2 OSR threads on the front page.
2/10.
Isn't that what people are complaining about?
Quote from: Endless Flight;755035Isn't that the Paizo forums? :D
I lol'd.
But seriously, there's some 5e chatter over there too. Inevitable.
I wonder what percentage of Pathfinder players will jump to 5e specifically due to crunchy-rules fatigue and what percentage will secretly jump due to the power of the D&D brand.
How do we know the 20-30 year old players don't like the crunch? They grew up with the crunch.
How do we know the 20-30 year old players don't like the crunch? They grew up with the crunch. What if they see 5e as a game with too few options?
Quote from: Endless Flight;755059How do we know the 20-30 year old players don't like the crunch? They grew up with the crunch. What if they see 5e as a game with too few options?
I think there are some people who live for squeezing out every + bonus modifier they can and won't be happy until their BAB gets into the +40s. But I think those people are the exception, not the rule. I.e., I think a lot people who play PF and 3.x don't do so because they love all that crunch, but because that's the first D&D game this younger gen started on, and 4e didn't feel like D&D to them at all, so they stuck with what did.
5e doesn't nearly have the crunch of 3e, but if you play with all the crunch options turned on, they will still have skills, feats, and multi-classing choices--all key features of 3e/PF. Just not as drilled down as 3e or PF, but more general feat groups.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;754860That makes you a late adopter.
No makes me SMART. I bought them all after they all came out back then, so wasn't that late, was still using my BX D&D anyhow.
Quote from: Endless Flight;755059How do we know the 20-30 year old players don't like the crunch? They grew up with the crunch. What if they see 5e as a game with too few options?
I don't think the problem will be a lack of options. The issue with these numbnuts is that all the charop wank material IS optional and they will have to swallow gallons of their DM's semen to convince them to allow it into the game vs all of it being baked into the core and theirs to use BY RIGHT because the holy book sayest such.
Fuck them.
Quote from: Endless Flight;755059How do we know the 20-30 year old players don't like the crunch? They grew up with the crunch. What if they see 5e as a game with too few options?
They still have Pathfinder. If they can find someone to run it. Because the fact 5E will be a lot more DM friendly than Pathfinder will weigh into the scales.
More insider information via a Mike Mearls interview below.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/11554-Inside-the-Launch-of-the-New-Dungeons-Dragons-With-Designer-Mike-Mearls
Quote from: Haffrung;755073They still have Pathfinder. If they can find someone to run it. Because the fact 5E will be a lot more DM friendly than Pathfinder will weigh into the scales.
Wasn't 4e a lot more friendly to DM than 3e as well?
So Drow in the PHB as a subrace? This should work out just fine. :eek:
Quote from: Marleycat;755088So Drow in the PHB as a subrace?
House rule #1: No Drow PCs
Quote from: languagegeek;755089House rule #1: No Drow PCs
House Rule #2, no Halflings, no Gnomes and no Kender. I know they didn't say Kender, but I had to toss that in to be sure.
If you want to play a little man, you can play a Dwarf or a Human Dwarf. Mr. Dinklage (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0227759/) has helped to illuminate the power and influence one of the small folk can have, so I don't need any more childish portrayals of annoying miniature clowns THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Shenanigans I say, Shenanigans!
Quote from: languagegeek;755089House rule #1: No Drow PCs
Come on now it's been completely possible to play a good aligned drow since 3e.;)
Quote from: Marleycat;755091Come on now it's been completely possible to play a good aligned drow since 3e.;)
Since 1e, with Unearthed Arcana.
That said, any time someone says they want to play a drow, I roll my eyes a bit. But OK, I'm a fair guy. Most players seem to think they get the benefits without any of the in-game handicaps though. Imagine what reactions will be when a drow walks into town? Yep, that's right. Players may think I'm a dick, but I'm just playing out NPCs as they would normally react.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755096Since 1e, with Unearthed Arcana.
That said, any time someone says they want to play a drow, I roll my eyes a bit. But OK, I'm a fair guy. Most players seem to think they get the benefits without any of the in-game handicaps though. Imagine what reactions will be when a drow walks into town? Yep, that's right. Players may think I'm a dick, but I'm just playing out NPCs as they would normally react.
THATS RACIST!! :rolleyes:
Quote from: Exploderwizard;755098THATS RACIST!! :rolleyes:
That's Oerth :D
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755096Since 1e, with Unearthed Arcana.
That said, any time someone says they want to play a drow, I roll my eyes a bit. But OK, I'm a fair guy. Most players seem to think they get the benefits without any of the in-game handicaps though. Imagine what reactions will be when a drow walks into town? Yep, that's right. Players may think I'm a dick, but I'm just playing out NPCs as they would normally react.
I know all about it one of my favorite characters was my Drow Sword Dancer in 3e. All the hassling and negative NPC reactions made for a myriad of opportunities for roleplaying.
Drow are so last decade.
Quote from: Marleycat;755101I know all about it one of my favorite characters was my Drow Sword Dancer in 3e. All the hassling and negative NPC reactions made for a myriad of opportunities for roleplaying.
Forget hassling and negative reactions. I'm talking about the town militia coming to kill you. Or them hiring a party of adventurers to track you down in the same way most towns hire adventures whenever goblins or orcs are in the area.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755103Forget hassling and negative reactions. I'm talking about the town militia coming to kill you. Or them hiring a party of adventurers to track you down in the same way most towns hire adventures whenever goblins or orcs are in the area.
Like I said...opportunity knocking why do you think women love clothes and makeup so much? With the right ensemble the above is a petty concern.
Quote from: One Horse Town;755078More insider information via a Mike Mearls interview below.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/11554-Inside-the-Launch-of-the-New-Dungeons-Dragons-With-Designer-Mike-Mearls
Lots of good, solid information. Highly recommended for anyone interested in 5E. Some highlights:
On the release schedule: As I expected, it's a matter of resources and collaboration. It's pretty much impossible to edit, lay out, and proof three 320 pages books at the same time unless they are staffed as separate projects. And that means no collaboration between the teams, which is a bad idea for core RPG books.
On the Basic set as PDF vs book: If the basic rules are published as a hardcopy, it will be later in the game life cycle. If the whole idea is to promote D&D with a free basic set PDF, it's dangerous to put it out initially in hardcover as well. What happens when someone buys it for $35 off the shelf, and then find out he could have got if for free online? Again, makes sense.
On the content of the Basic set: Mearls basically went through the Moldvay Basic set and mirrored the content. Good news.
On using pre-gens in the Starter Set: Mearls comes out and says they want people to be able to buy it and start playing, the same way they would a boardgame. It's for players entirely new to D&D and RPGs, and getting them up and running as fast as possible is the purpose of the set. Also, the pre-gens are written up with hooks and ties into the adventure setting. They want to highlight what's different about RPGs from boardgames - the centrality of living PCs who are a dynamic part of the world around them. Backgrounds and hooks help with that. Again, makes sense considering the target market.
Monster Manual content: They want to make sure people can use the Monster Manual with basic without buying the DMG, so the rules for monsters, like Legendary Monsters, will be in the MM. And unless they're a spellcaster, monster stat blocks will include everything needed to run the monster.
DMG content: Will include dungeon and adventure design utilities, along with rules for creating new spells, monsters, and classes.
Quote from: Endless Flight;755081Wasn't 4e a lot more friendly to DM than 3e as well?
Yep. But in many other ways a radical departure from traditional D&D.
I know it's tempting to denounce 4E now that's been discontinued. But just because 4E did something doesn't automatically make it a bad idea of a failure. Compact and easy to use stat blocks? 4E had those, so it must be a terrible idea.
Quote from: One Horse Town;755102Drow are so last decade.
Sure doesn't feel that way in my circles, but that's anecdotal I guess.
Quote from: Haffrung;755108On the content of the Basic set: Mearls basically went through the Moldvay Basic set and mirrored the content. Good news.
Ok so there WILL be simple chargen in the box. Good news.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;755111Ok so there WILL be simple chargen in the box. Good news.
Basic is not in a box. Starter is the thing in the Box, Basic is the PDF thing.
Quote from: Haffrung;755108On the Basic set as PDF vs book: If the basic rules are published as a hardcopy, it will be later in the game life cycle. If the whole idea is to promote D&D with a free basic set PDF, it's dangerous to put it out initially in hardcover as well. What happens when someone buys it for $35 off the shelf, and then find out he could have got if for free online? Again, makes sense.
I don't quite get how it's 'dangerous'... these days I assume that most rulebooks have a PDF online and that it's cheaper if not free. If there was a hardcopy Basic I'd surely buy it, despite the free PDF.
Who are these hypothetical people who wouldn't know that but would then suddenly discover it and be angry about it?
How are they going to promote the free PDF vs. having an actual book on the shelves? Is the Starter the only way to discover it without prior knowledge of D&D?
It seems more like the concern is having a cheaper entry product that might serve as terminus, rather than the Starter which leads directly to the 3 corebooks. A bit of a railroad.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;755110Sure doesn't feel that way in my circles, but that's anecdotal I guess.
Yeah, I think Tieflings ate their lunch as the go-to "misunderstood guy" race.
Quote from: Simlasa;755115I don't quite get how it's 'dangerous'... these days I assume that most rulebooks have a PDF online and that it's cheaper if not free. If there was a hardcopy Basic I'd surely buy it, despite the free PDF.
Who are these hypothetical people who wouldn't know that but would then suddenly discover it and be angry about it?
How are they going to promote the free PDF vs. having an actual book on the shelves? Is the Starter the only way to discover it without prior knowledge of D&D?
It seems more like the concern is having a cheaper entry product that might serve as terminus, rather than the Starter which leads directly to the 3 corebooks. A bit of a railroad.
It's better to be safe then sorry because believe me there are the kinds of people out there and many love nothing more then to have the chance to complain about it on the internet. I figure they will see the demand is there quickly so it will be done in a reasonable amount of time.
Quote from: jadrax;755113Basic is not in a box. Starter is the thing in the Box, Basic is the PDF thing.
Presumably then it's modelled on Moldvay + Cook/Marsh Expert (levels 4-14) otherwise there'd be no wilderness adventures etc?
Quote from: trechriron;755090House Rule #2, no Halflings, no Gnomes and no Kender. I know they didn't say Kender, but I had to toss that in to be sure.
If you want to play a little man, you can play a Dwarf or a Human Dwarf. Mr. Dinklage (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0227759/) has helped to illuminate the power and influence one of the small folk can have, so I don't need any more childish portrayals of annoying miniature clowns THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Shenanigans I say, Shenanigans!
You mean no
TINKER gnomes.
Regular D&D gnomes are a totally different animal.
Quote from: Omega;755133You mean no TINKER gnomes.
Regular D&D gnomes are a totally different animal.
I actually like 4e's version of them and 3/4e halflings are fine as are 3e kender surprisingly (because there are 2 subclasses of them (1 being nearly the same as a typical halfling and the "handling" aspect is toned way down in any case).
Quote from: LibraryLass;755116Yeah, I think Tieflings ate their lunch as the go-to "misunderstood guy" race.
What I meant was that drow are still popular in my circles, but you're right, tieflings are strong contenders here too because they're more flexible in terms of character backgrounds. Promoting them was a good move in 4e.
Quote from: S'mon;755132Presumably then it's modelled on Moldvay + Cook/Marsh Expert (levels 4-14) otherwise there'd be no wilderness adventures etc?
Yes, its the 1981 Moldvay revision.
'With basic D&D you'll have the core monsters, magic items, all the rules for creating adventures, for Dungeon Master guidelines, for balancing encounters, for treasure, treasure tables, encounter tables. This is literally the process I used to outline it: I took the old basic set from 1981 and just the rules in there, the magic items, if it's in there it's in the basic set - except a few things that people don't see as iconic anymore.' - Mike Mearls
Quote from: jadrax;755154except a few things that people don't see as iconic anymore.' - Mike Mearls
What might those be?
Quote from: Simlasa;755155What might those be?
You know, that was the first question that came to my mind too. I may have to see if I can dig a copy out and look for likely candidates.
Quote from: Simlasa;755155What might those be?
Salamander?
Fire Beetle?
White Ape?
Stuff like that I imagine
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755164Salamander?
Fire Beetle?
White Ape?
Stuff like that I imagine
No FIRE BEETLE?!!! Fuck that shit, I'm out!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755164Salamander?
Fire Beetle?
White Ape?
Stuff like that I imagine
Thoul and Demon Boar too, I expect.
Edit: I could actually see Fire Beetles getting in, they're a classic. Maybe salamanders, but maybe not.
Quote from: LibraryLass;755168Thoul and Demon Boar too, I expect.
Edit: I could actually see Fire Beetles getting in, they're a classic. Maybe salamanders, but maybe not.
Is demon boar in basic? Maybe living statues are gone too.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755164Salamander?
Fire Beetle?
White Ape?
Stuff like that I imagine
Thoul was my first thought. Tuatara lizards will be lucky to make it in. Heck they're lucky they're not
extinct, damn archaeofauna! :D
Quote from: LibraryLass;755168Edit: I could actually see Fire Beetles getting in, they're a classic.
Fire beetles were featured prominently in a few 4e art pieces, so I think they're a shoe-in. They were also an amusing part of low-level
Everquest, so they still have the traction to make it into other modern fantasy properties too.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;755174Fire beetles were featured prominently in a few 4e art pieces, so I think they're a shoe-in. They were also an amusing part of low-level Everquest, so they still have the traction to make it into other modern fantasy properties too.
Oh, well THAT'S a relief... it wouldn't be D&D without the fire beetles!
Quote from: LibraryLass;755168Thoul and Demon Boar too, I expect.
Demon Boar? WTF is this, some generic retro clone! This is D&D motherfucker! We can call the monsters by their TRUE names here!
Its DEVIL SWINE and they better be included. :p
Quote from: Exploderwizard;755184Demon Boar? WTF is this, some generic retro clone! This is D&D motherfucker! We can call the monsters by their TRUE names here!
Its DEVIL SWINE and they better be included. :p
I always get mixed up which is which. It's a silly monster, anyway.
Quote from: LibraryLass;755186I always get mixed up which is which. It's a silly monster, anyway.
No sillier than wererats, werewolves, or other shape changers. Their ability to assume human form and their powerful charm abilities make them an interesting choice for a "monster" in town that could escape notice.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;755188No sillier than wererats, werewolves, or other shape changers.
Ehhh.
QuoteTheir ability to assume human form and their powerful charm abilities make them an interesting choice for a "monster" in town that could escape notice.
It seems a bit redundant to me if a spellcaster can become a wereboar, which I would expect 5e to be able to handle.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;755184Demon Boar? WTF is this, some generic retro clone! This is D&D motherfucker! We can call the monsters by their TRUE names here!
Its DEVIL SWINE and they better be included. :p
They prefer "Morally Challenged Porcine" now-a-days... :confused:
Seriously though there are a couple of BX monsters that seem to exist mostly in BX with the occasional strays.
B: Oil Beetle, Tiger Beetle, Cave Locust, Driver Ant, Robber Fly, Tarantella, The aformentioned Thoul
X: Caecilia, Water Termite.
Not counting the oddities in the modules.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755169Maybe living statues are gone too.
Nooooooo! :(
(http://i.imgur.com/3PYETwi.jpg?1)
Great Raven, now this thread needs a statblock for the crusty juggler.
Quote from: Omega;755210Robber Fly
Sadly missed all these years.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755064I think there are some people who live for squeezing out every + bonus modifier they can and won't be happy until their BAB gets into the +40s. But I think those people are the exception, not the rule. I.e., I think a lot people who play PF and 3.x don't do so because they love all that crunch, but because that's the first D&D game this younger gen started on, and 4e didn't feel like D&D to them at all, so they stuck with what did.
Could be, idk, the peeps around here who started with 3e had nearly the same reactions as older players when it came to 4e.
Quote from: Spinachcat;754592About what? I've already eaten my plate of makeup. I'm fucking beautiful on the inside now. My kidneys are porn star fuckable. You better start chewing on yours to catch up with me.
But let's play a game of let's pretend...appropriate for this site.
Just imagine if this level of "marketing genius" was done by White Wolf and what RPGPundit's response would have been. Or even if it was done by WotC, but without his consulting gig?
Somehow, I doubt we'd be hearing the same Kumbaya for a starter set without chargen and PDF quickstart.
Ignoring the factor of whether or not a Basic D&D would have happened even without me; if I'd have had nothing to do with it, and was told "there's going to be a PDF that will be completely FREE that will have the Basic D&D rules playable from levels 1-20 and will be the default rules which will be all you need to run any Wizards adventure without needing to buy the PHB/DMG/etc., and it will be generally old-school in lines of thinking, with an emphasis on simplicity and keeping out most of the 3.x+ ideas", I would be over the moon with praise.
Look at my history of blog posts. I've been arguing, pretty much for a decade now, about how essential it is for D&D to have a real simple set of Basic rules that will work for beginners and remove the high entry-fee (not just monetary, but in terms of the price paid in terms of how much you need to read/know), thus wresting the game from the cycle of rewarding the uber-nerds and punishing the casual gamers.
I had never thought of a PDF, its true, but I was arguing since forever for a set needing to be as cheap as possible to bring people into the hobby. Nothing is cheaper than free.
...and had White Wolf done it? Well, its really beside the point to do it if you're not a high-end industry leader, but if we were to pretend (since that's what we're doing at this point) that this was some alternate universe where WW was the number 1 or number 2 company on the market, I would probably be bemoaning the fact that D&D isn't doing something like that too.
Quote from: RPGPundit;756178Ignoring the factor of whether or not a Basic D&D would have happened even without me; if I'd have had nothing to do with it, and was told "there's going to be a PDF that will be completely FREE that will have the Basic D&D rules playable from levels 1-20 and will be the default rules which will be all you need to run any Wizards adventure without needing to buy the PHB/DMG/etc., and it will be generally old-school in lines of thinking, with an emphasis on simplicity and keeping out most of the 3.x+ ideas", I would be over the moon with praise.
Look at my history of blog posts. I've been arguing, pretty much for a decade now, about how essential it is for D&D to have a real simple set of Basic rules that will work for beginners and remove the high entry-fee (not just monetary, but in terms of the price paid in terms of how much you need to read/know), thus wresting the game from the cycle of rewarding the uber-nerds and punishing the casual gamers.
I had never thought of a PDF, its true, but I was arguing since forever for a set needing to be as cheap as possible to bring people into the hobby. Nothing is cheaper than free.
...and had White Wolf done it? Well, its really beside the point to do it if you're not a high-end industry leader, but if we were to pretend (since that's what we're doing at this point) that this was some alternate universe where WW was the number 1 or number 2 company on the market, I would probably be bemoaning the fact that D&D isn't doing something like that too.
He kind of gotcha there SpinachCat. Nothing beats FREE and it's amazing that WotC is saying whatever you buy is just optional.
Like what the fuck? That's impossible and insane. Give me a PDF of a full Dnd game that's free I would shoot it to my Dnd DM and friends that have the money to print it and have it bound at Kinko's in 3 seconds. I mean seriously?
Quote from: Marleycat;756185He kind of gotcha there SpinachCat. Nothing beats FREE and it's amazing that WotC is saying whatever you buy is just optional.
Let's underscore that, because that's the really huge departure here and I do't think it's emphasised enough. Wizards is basically saying that thanks to the Basic PDF,
nobody ever needs to buy a single RPG product from them again.
The PHB? Optional. The MM? Optiional. The DMG? Optional. Any future splatbooks and supplements? Even more optional. The Starter Set? Very fucking optional.
Of course, thanks to the shift to seeing D&D as a brand under which a plethora of products can blossom rather than an RPG and a bunch of tie-ins, Wizards can afford to do this. They make their real money with boardgames and MMOs and other revenue sources and the RPG is there less as a revenue generator (though revenue is of course welcome) and more as a testbed for producing IP to make other stuff out of. But even so, this is huge. This is a major player on the market saying two really important things:
- More obviously, they are saying that they are going to live or die by the quality of product they make. If everything is optional, then they are conceding that they can't expect to sell you a book just because it's necessary to run the latest hot adventure path or whatever. In other words, they are making a commitment to trying to make quality products which you will get excited about and want to buy, rather than feeling expected to buy.
- The subtler aspect, and the thing which might make this gamble worthwhile, is that they are saying "Nobody should need to pay anything to play our game or join our community, so here's the means to do just that." If D&D 5E is both popular enough that you can find a game in most towns where there's any RPG presence at all, and you don't need to buy anything to get involved, and the basic rules are simple enough to keep thee barrier to learning and starting play as low as possible, that could be huge.
Quote from: Warthur;756233Let's underscore that, because that's the really huge departure here and I do't think it's emphasised enough. Wizards is basically saying that thanks to the Basic PDF, nobody ever needs to buy a single RPG product from them again.
The PHB? Optional. The MM? Optiional. The DMG? Optional. Any future splatbooks and supplements? Even more optional. The Starter Set? Very fucking optional.
It's a big departure from 4e, but also from the company's own more distant past? When your direct competitor is basically doing this (http://paizo.com/prd/)?
No doubt, a basic PDF is a great step in the right direction, but I still fail to see why this is the same type of game-changer (no pun intended) that the SRD was in 2001. D&D has been free to play ever since, if free online content counts.
Quote from: Windjammer;756247No doubt, a basic PDF is a great step in the right direction, but I still fail to see why this is the same type of game-changer (no pun intended) that the SRD was in 2001. D&D has been free to play ever since, if free online content counts.
Because SRDs are written as copyright safe havens first, rules resources second, and gateways to the game a distant third.
Conversely, Basic D&D a) probably isn't an SRD (I suspect there will be a separate one for the third party licence, if it's even open enough to be OGL-like), and b) is being pitched is something that interested parties can use to learn and play the game from scratch (perhaps after playing the Starter Set to get a basic introduction to the hobby).
With 3.X and Pathfinder, whilst it's always been possible to play from the SRD, the assumption was always that people would learn the game and play the game from books, and the SRDs and subsequent products were written with that in mind. With 5E Wizards are turning that assumption around.
Whatever the intent, though--be it encouraging play or as a developer safe haven--isn't the end result essentially the same?
Pathfinder (Paizo) continually expands the SRD with new material from their books--Advanced Race Guide, Mythic Adventures, Ultimate Magic--essentially ensuring that players who haven't bought the book have access to the game.
It doesn't sound as if Wizards is going that far, but releasing this online essentially ensures that players who haven't bought the book have (basic) access to the game.
Both companies now have essentially said "to play our game, you don't have to buy anything". There have been plenty of games to say that same thing over the year (see: the massive amount of free rules online), but to have the #1 and #2 gaming companies do it, that wouldn't have been believed not too many years ago.
Quote from: Zachary The First;756253Whatever the intent, though--be it encouraging play or as a developer safe haven--isn't the end result essentially the same?
Well, there's a simple test you can do: plonk the Basic PDF and the Pathfinder SRD in front of someone who's interested in gaming but doesn't have prior experience with either system, and see which they prefer to learn from.
Quote from: Warthur;756254Well, there's a simple test you can do: plonk the Basic PDF and the Pathfinder SRD in front of someone who's interested in gaming but doesn't have prior experience with either system, and see which they prefer to learn from.
The problem with that, though (interesting an idea as it is!), is I think many people learn socially in RPGs--they join a group, and sort of learn in conjunction with the group. So wouldn't it also be a question of group utility?
I grant you, it'll be interesting to see how it is received--the PRD doesn't strike me as too daunting (see here (http://paizo.com/prd/gettingStarted.html)), but I suppose it could be, if a person is just reading on their own.
And all of this thanks to the OGL.
Quote from: Warthur;756233Let's underscore that, because that's the really huge departure here and I don't think it's emphasized enough. Wizards is basically saying that thanks to the Basic PDF, nobody ever needs to buy a single RPG product from them again.
The PHB? Optional. The MM? Optiional. The DMG? Optional. Any future splatbooks and supplements? Even more optional. The Starter Set? Very fucking optional.
Of course, thanks to the shift to seeing D&D as a brand under which a plethora of products can blossom rather than an RPG and a bunch of tie-ins, Wizards can afford to do this. They make their real money with boardgames and MMOs and other revenue sources and the RPG is there less as a revenue generator (though revenue is of course welcome) and more as a testbed for producing IP to make other stuff out of. But even so, this is huge. This is a major player on the market saying two really important things:
- More obviously, they are saying that they are going to live or die by the quality of product they make. If everything is optional, then they are conceding that they can't expect to sell you a book just because it's necessary to run the latest hot adventure path or whatever. In other words, they are making a commitment to trying to make quality products which you will get excited about and want to buy, rather than feeling expected to buy.
- The subtler aspect, and the thing which might make this gamble worthwhile, is that they are saying "Nobody should need to pay anything to play our game or join our community, so here's the means to do just that." If D&D 5E is both popular enough that you can find a game in most towns where there's any RPG presence at all, and you don't need to buy anything to get involved, and the basic rules are simple enough to keep thee barrier to learning and starting play as low as possible, that could be huge.
Really?
That is some mighty fine drugs you be on.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756313Really?
That is some mighty fine drugs you be on.
You have everything you need to play in a free product. What's not true about that?
Quote from: LibraryLass;756318You have everything you need to play in a free product. What's not true about that?
Who is going to play with
only the Basic PDF?
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
Irrelevant. The point is that you can, if so inclined, and there is no need to buy the rest unless one chooses to.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756318You have everything you need to play in a free product. What's not true about that?
What if you wanted to play a Barbarian or Bard and that was delegated out of Basic? (Unlikely, but the Q&A mentioned a limited class loadout.)
Moldvay BX is a complete game. Technically you could play Mentzer BECMI with just the BE part. It is still a limited experience though. But a darn good one.
We will see soon enough just what all is and is not in the Basic.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
No idea. I imagine some gamers might if they like the basic system and don't want to spend any money. While I personally still like having hard copy in my hand, I do know a lot of gamers who are happy to use, even prefer to use, PDFs when running or playing games. As time goes by I also find myself getting more used to the idea of people having laptops or tablets at the table for that purpose.
Quote from: Omega;756405What if you wanted to play a Barbarian or Bard and that was delegated out of Basic? (Unlikely, but the Q&A mentioned a limited class loadout.)
Moldvay BX is a complete game. Technically you could play Mentzer BECMI with just the BE part. It is still a limited experience though. But a darn good one.
We will see soon enough just what all is and is not in the Basic.
You get AD&D of course but your point is valid and only caused by TSR wanting Arenson out of the financial pie. Hence not by choice D&D vs.AD&D two complete games by the same company in direct competition. WotC isn't that stupid.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756410No idea. I imagine some gamers might if they like the basic system and don't want to spend any money. While I personally still like having hard copy in my hand, I do know a lot of gamers who are happy to use, even prefer to use, PDFs when running or playing games. As time goes by I also find myself getting more used to the idea of people having laptops or tablets at the table for that purpose.
Yep. Also I do know plenty that would just use BASIC, most actually have some way (friends) to download, print and bind it for others either free, cheap, or on an easy installment plan. If they can't do it themselves.
It's not a SRD it's a complete game even I might print it and use a 3-ring binder to consolidate it. Just to have it handy to use as a baseline to decide what should or shouldn't be in my game as suppliments come out in a quick but fair way.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
IF I play it at all that will be how I go into it and I really doubt I'll be hankering for the other 3 books... though maybe for the monsters book, those are always fun.
AFAIC... a Barbarian is a Fighter, played like barbarian. I'm not sure what a Bard is... if a player were to ask for it I'd probably say it was a Fighter with an instrument... Alan-A-Dale or Johnny Guitar. If they need some 'official' version it's not likely I'd be gaming with them anyway.
Quote from: Omega;756405What if you wanted to play a Barbarian or Bard and that was delegated out of Basic? (Unlikely, but the Q&A mentioned a limited class loadout.)
Moldvay BX is a complete game. Technically you could play Mentzer BECMI with just the BE part. It is still a limited experience though. But a darn good one.
We will see soon enough just what all is and is not in the Basic.
Is B/X an incomplete game because it does not have every class that's in AD&D?
Quote from: LibraryLass;756427Is B/X an incomplete game because it does not have every class that's in AD&D?
No both are complete in the strictest sense of the definition it's just that 5e BASIC gives you this generation's BMXI free it was never actually supposed to go beyond X. You were supposed to go into AD&D. Personally I said fuck this bullshit and used 1/2e in an unholy mix that guarantees my ticket to hell.:)
It wasn't supposed to go beyond the second expansion before you went to AD&D. But the actual starter box was far too complete for legal reasons and stupidity. Much like OGL is for any intelligent business or people therein not to use like a crack whore much like Pathfinder. It's just too easy and obvious not to.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756427Is B/X an incomplete game because it does not have every class that's in AD&D?
BX is its own self contained system. B is though somewhat incomplete without X. Playable to be sure. But 3 levels is a bit short.
Closer analogy might be how 3rd or 4th kept certain races and classes out of the core books. So they felt slightly incomplete.
With Next's Basic though we dont know whats in and whats not. Just the Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue? That is enough for most of us. But some may feel its incomplete without the Paladin, Ranger, Druid, etc.
Quote from: Omega;756492BX is its own self contained system. B is though somewhat incomplete without X. Playable to be sure. But 3 levels is a bit short.
Closer analogy might be how 3rd or 4th kept certain races and classes out of the core books. So they felt slightly incomplete.
With Next's Basic though we dont know whats in and whats not. Just the Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue? That is enough for most of us. But some may feel its incomplete without the Paladin, Ranger, Druid, etc.
Yes 4/4 is the core it's not 3/4e why do you think there's such uproar and entertainment for me at ENWorld and TBP from certain posters? They just can't grasp what's actually happened yet. WotC is entering the modern RPG landscape with MONEY. WotC is doing what TSR intended to do 30 years ago....BASIC is D&D the Big 3 are AD&D. All completely compatible ready to mix and match like 2e but no limits beyond your own. Even multiclassing is pure optional.
Quote from: Omega;756492With Next's Basic though we dont know whats in and whats not. Just the Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue?
We do, though. The Q&A video on Friday confirmed: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue. Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling.
Quote from: Marleycat;756494Yes 4/4 is the core it's not 3/4e why do you think there's such uproar and entertainment for me at ENWorld and TBP from certain posters? They just can't grasp what's actually happened yet. WotC is entering the modern RPG landscape with MONEY. WotC is doing what TSR intended to do 30 years ago....BASIC is D&D the Big 3 are AD&D.
Exactly so. Well, except for the race as class thing.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756495We do, though. The Q&A video on Friday confirmed: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue. Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling.
Exactly so. Well, except for the race as class thing.
I like race as class but I'm a minority there obviously.:)
And Race as class was RC (BEMI) or whatever before I actually played the game (I started when Unearthed Arcana came out right with 2e) which is after both RC and 1e.;)
Late 1980's-early 1990's to be helpful.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756346Irrelevant. The point is that you can, if so inclined, and there is no need to buy the rest unless one chooses to.
Sophistry.
I'm fine ignoring the .01% corner case.
However my reply wasn't only about the Basic PDF it was also targeted to the
"Of course, thanks to the shift to seeing D&D as a brand under which a plethora of products can blossom rather than an RPG and a bunch of tie-ins, Wizards can afford to do this. They make their real money with boardgames and MMOs and other revenue sources and the RPG is there less as a revenue generator (though revenue is of course welcome) and more as a testbed for producing IP to make other stuff out of. But even so, this is huge." Now we gots the "Well the RPG can tank but who cares it's a 'brand' now" excuse.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
Anyone who is interested in a simple version of D&D5. I think that eventually, most people will incorporate rules from full D&D5, but the base will be, well Basic D&D5.
Having both a basic and an advanced version of D&D is a very intelligent move. You satisfy both the übernerds and the casual players. It's like D&D BX/BECM and AD&D, or MERP and Rolemaster.
Quote from: Marleycat;756496I like race as class but I'm a minority there obviously.:)
And Race as class was RC (BEMI) or whatever before I actually played the game (I started when Unearthed Arcana came out right with 2e) which is after both RC and 1e.;)
Late 1980's-early 1990's to be helpful.
I think they meant those are the Class and Race options, rather than the class options as it were. The playtest did not have race-as-class past the first playtest.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;754801Just for the record, I actually learned a lot of interesting and useful things from James' blog. I just found is passive-aggressive zeal for the "one true way" of OSR a bit much.
The dude was a fraud. And it says a lot just how many people were willing to fall for him.
Quote from: Haffrung;755033Yeah, how shitty would it be if this became a forum for people to talk about the most popular RPG in the hobby? Better it stay a particularly snarky offshoot of the OSR.
As always, this forum will be whatever people want it to be. I don't control the posting of threads here (as long as they are topical in general).
If you don't like all the 5e threads, Kyle, then why not fucking post a thread about something other than 5e? That sounds like the kind of snarky advice you love giving others when you're not busy being a raging hypocrite.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
Me?
Depends on what is in it. I'm really liking the KISS paradigm with gaming nowadays.
Quote from: Marleycat;756496I like race as class but I'm a minority there obviously.:)
One possible way to get a similar effect with 5E (man, I just cannot stop calling it Next!) while preserving flexibility would be to limit certain race/sublcass combinations. Perhaps the Illusionist subclass is a secret art of the gnomes, or only those with elven blood can make pacts with fey nobles to become that kind of warlock?
QuoteLate 1980's-early 1990's to be helpful.
Middle/Lost School. Paladins & Princesses era. The kind of stuff that gets despised by both Pundit and many of his critics. :)
I'm hoping 5E will help fill that niche; 4E is a very good and underappreciated game for what it is, IMO, but it requires a lot of energy/brainpower/material investment and tends to shape the gameplay experience in different ways that were assumed by the M/LS. I'm warming more and more to 5E as we see more about it, it starts looking more professional, and I recognize that it's going to fill a different niche. I just worry it's going to turn out like 3.0 in terms of hidden traps and things that break the system. Well, that and Pundit's self-aggrandizement about how important he's been to the game. :) But then, I knew coming in here I'd be even more out of place here than I am on TBP. :)
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
I certainly plan on trying it for some short pick-up games. What makes you think it's not something people will do?
I am really looking forward to it actually. Sit down with a 2-hour time frame, players travelling from point A to point B through the wilderness as part of the larger campaign, roll on random tables to see what's in the hex they just entered, adjudicate encounter(s) there, rinse, repeat. Should be fun.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;756865One possible way to get a similar effect with 5E (man, I just cannot stop calling it Next!) while preserving flexibility would be to limit certain race/sublcass combinations. Perhaps the Illusionist subclass is a secret art of the gnomes, or only those with elven blood can make pacts with fey nobles to become that kind of warlock?
Neat idea. I was thinking something like that for certain games/settings.
Middle/Lost School. Paladins & Princesses era. The kind of stuff that gets despised by both Pundit and many of his critics. :)
I'm hoping 5E will help fill that niche; 4E is a very good and underappreciated game for what it is, IMO, but it requires a lot of energy/brainpower/material investment and tends to shape the gameplay experience in different ways that were assumed by the M/LS. I'm warming more and more to 5E as we see more about it, it starts looking more professional, and I recognize that it's going to fill a different niche. I just worry it's going to turn out like 3.0 in terms of hidden traps and things that break the system. Well, that and Pundit's self-aggrandizement about how important he's been to the game. :) But then, I knew coming in here I'd be even more out of place here than I am on TBP. :)
I don't mind Pundit he makes me laugh. But I do agree with the rest and definitely have my concerns about too much 3e in it because of the multiclassing system. I have to see it in action for a full game before I would tinker with it though.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
I will. Unless and until they release a print version of Basic. The only reason I'd buy the other books is if I enjoy Basic so much that I'd like more. Playing with a few classes and races is fine by me. Potentially for years.
Quote from: RPGPundit;756853If you don't like all the 5e threads, Kyle, then why not fucking post a thread about something other than 5e? That sounds like the kind of snarky advice you love giving others when you're not busy being a raging hypocrite.
I'm not gaming at the moment, it'd just be theory, alas :( I can tell old gaming stories but those get boring.
But I'm glad to see I've hit a nerve. You long boasted about being an outsider from the Swine mainstream, now you post threads about being an Insider - your capitalisation. We now see that your problem with shills was just that you'd never been asked to be one before.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756328Who is going to play with only the Basic PDF?
Quite a few, I'm betting. Particularly old-schoolers or people who prefer a more basic style of game.
In fact, I predict that people will take the basic PDF and create modifications for it that are totally different from the 3 rulebooks.
People may form communities online to exchange such ideas.
We may very well end up seeing a bunch of 5e Basic "Clones".
What I like about the basic/"advanced " split is Basic gives a great baseline that's hard to argue (from a "but this is a core book" perspective, at least— Lord knows people can argue anything). In other words: this campaign is Basic, plus Paladins, Monks, and Gnomes.
I intend to use Basic + the classes and races of 1e. Might restrict some classes by race, I have a hard time with demihuman paladins, and while I can stomach Elf rangers (eehhhhh) a Halfling ranger is a bit beyond the pale. Dragonborn Paladin? Go fuck yourself and fuck your character concept, go bitch on a forum.
Quote from: matthulhu;758039What I like about the basic/"advanced " split is Basic gives a great baseline that's hard to argue (from a "but this is a core book" perspective, at least— Lord knows people can argue anything). In other words: this campaign is Basic, plus Paladins, Monks, and Gnomes.
I intend to use Basic + the classes and races of 1e. Might restrict some classes by race, I have a hard time with demihuman paladins, and while I can stomach Elf rangers (eehhhhh) a Halfling ranger is a bit beyond the pale. Dragonborn Paladin? Go fuck yourself and fuck your character concept, go bitch on a forum.
You get it! It's all about configuration. For example my game will probably go something like this...everything in the PHB is fine but multiclassing works like so....and we are going with gritty baseline for healing and only 3 attuned magic items and feats/stat bumps are in. 2e with 3e easy peasey.:)
@GX_Sigma So what does a "living ruleset"
@mikemearls · basically, before we change anything we will make sure it is a problem for most groups
@mikemearls · we'll also share and public playtest changes *before* adding them to the game
@mikemearls · finally, if we have an idea for an improvement we will share and test before presenting it as an option
Quote from: Mistwell;758221@mikemearls · basically, before we change anything we will make sure it is a problem for most groups
This part is bemusing.
Quote from: RPGPundit;758030Quite a few, I'm betting. Particularly old-schoolers or people who prefer a more basic style of game.
Then we have different ideas of
quite a few when it comes to D&D. A couple thousand isn't quite a few for D&D.
Quote from: RPGPundit;758030In fact, I predict that people will take the basic PDF and create modifications for it that are totally different from the 3 rulebooks.
People may form communities online to exchange such ideas.
We may very well end up seeing a bunch of 5e Basic "Clones".
Oh, I'm sure. I don't see
quite a few buying it up. I see the same quite the few buying all the 5e Basic "Clones".
Quote from: RPGPundit;758030Quite a few, I'm betting. Particularly old-schoolers or people who prefer a more basic style of game.
In fact, I predict that people will take the basic PDF and create modifications for it that are totally different from the 3 rulebooks.
People may form communities online to exchange such ideas.
We may very well end up seeing a bunch of 5e Basic "Clones".
I'm not sure if you convinced me about 5th edition or 10th edition, where the design philosophy of 5th edition will be universally praised by people initiated by 5th edition as the model for 10th edition. All of the clones of 5th edition will be used as a model for this 10th edition.
The cyclical nature of D&D has been revealed. The prophecy of Old Geezer has begun.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;756992I'm not gaming at the moment, it'd just be theory, alas :( I can tell old gaming stories but those get boring.
But I'm glad to see I've hit a nerve. You long boasted about being an outsider from the Swine mainstream, now you post threads about being an Insider - your capitalisation. We now see that your problem with shills was just that you'd never been asked to be one before.
I'm not sure from the above that you get what Swine are. Unless by "Swine mainstream" you mean "Mainstream thinking among Swine", though even that wouldn't make a lot of sense because different sorts of Swine have radically different ideas, the one thing they all have in common being only their extreme pretentiousness about how the way they play RPGs is something "better" than the "unwashed masses" of standard D&D players.
The mainstream of Regular Roleplayers were never "swine". The mainstream of the industry, and the intellectual side of the hobby, was occasionally taken over by swine who tried to move the hobby into their ideological lines, which usually led to disaster. I railed against those attempted takeovers, sure; but its completely in line with my thinking that the people the industry and hobby SHOULD be listening to are regular roleplayers. Like me. And now, fortunately, they are.
Quote from: RPGPundit;758406but its completely in line with my thinking that the people the industry and hobby SHOULD be listening to are regular roleplayers. Like me. And now, fortunately, they are.
:) :D :rotfl:
This ranks up there as one of the most absurdly funny comments you have ever said.
I'm almost tempted to believe you're sincere about it.
Quote from: Sommerjon;758436:) :D :rotfl:
This ranks up there as one of the most absurdly funny comments you have ever said.
I'm almost tempted to believe you're sincere about it.
Why? Since you don't actually game? You admitted it 2-3 years ago right here like Ezekiel did on TBP to Black Vulmea a week ago.
Quote from: Marleycat;758439Why? Since you don't actually game? You admitted it 2-3 years ago right here like Ezekiel did on TBP to Black Vulmea a week ago.
What the fuck are you talking about? Since when do I not game?
Quote from: Sommerjon;758472What the fuck are you talking about? Since when do I not game?
Like I said you said so. I assumed you told the truth?
Quote from: Marleycat;758476Like I said you said so. I assumed you told the truth?
You have selective memory then, not surprising.
Quote from: Sommerjon;758478You have selective memory then, not surprising.
Dodging the question. Do you or do you not game?
Quote from: Fiasco;758494Dodging the question. Do you or do you not game?
Look it up yourself.
Quote from: Sommerjon;758636Look it up yourself.
That is pretty much looking like a no.
Quote from: dragoner;758689That is pretty much looking like a no.
Yep an armchair gamer, awesome.
Quote from: dragoner;758689That is pretty much looking like a no.
I don't know about all editions, but he did say he only breaks out AD&D books once a year. March of last year I believe
Well, that's not very exciting.
Number 5 violation. :nono:
Quote from: One Horse Town;758768Number 5 violation. :nono:
That movie "Short Circuit" from back in the early 90's! Amirite? Whaddu-ai get? :p
Quote from: Opaopajr;758785That movie "Short Circuit" from back in the early 90's! Amirite? Whaddu-ai get? :p
90's?
It was 1986 back when Ally Sheedy was still hot. :)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;75880990's?
It was 1986 back when Ally Sheedy was still hot. :)
Back when Steve Guttenberg was an A lister. I think he had a window of what? 2 years? Like a firecracker. Came at once, blew up huge, and then left just as quickly
Quote from: Fiasco;758494Dodging the question. Do you or do you not game?
Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Not-Actively-Playing-Old-School-D&D Swine? ;)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;758817Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Not-Actively-Playing-Old-School-D&D Swine? ;)
Well not quite :-) didn't specify old school, any gaming (preferably D&D related) would have been relevant to the discussion.
Quote from: dragoner;758689That is pretty much looking like a no.
Didn't realize that I have to defend myself from an unfounded accusation.
But since you fucknuts
need validation.
June 2013-June 2014
Wednesdays
June - September
Iron Kingdoms
Fridays
March-December: Earthdawn
December-January: 2e D&D
January- April: Shadowrun 5e
May - Now: 2e D&D
Saturdays
January(2012)-September Pathfinder
September - February Every other Saturday Pathfinder
September - February Every other Saturday Bushido
March - May: Usagi Yojimbo(we dropped the animorphs and used D&D races)
May - Now: FFG Star Wars
Sundays
June - September 4e D&D
Quote from: Sommerjon;759016Didn't realize that I have to defend myself from an unfounded accusation.
But since you fucknuts need validation.
June 2013-June 2014
Wednesdays
June - September
Iron Kingdoms
Fridays
March-December: Earthdawn
December-January: 2e D&D
January- April: Shadowrun 5e
May - Now: 2e D&D
Saturdays
January(2012)-September Pathfinder
September - February Every other Saturday Pathfinder
September - February Every other Saturday Bushido
March - May: Usagi Yojimbo(we dropped the animorphs and used D&D races)
May - Now: FFG Star Wars
Sundays
June - September 4e D&D
But we will also need written statements from players at each of those games along with your level of commitment in each case.
We will need your college statements an IQ test and a copy of your passport and birth certificate and we will still think you are a muslim Kenyan who works for Bin Laden even if you did end up killing him.
Quote from: Opaopajr;758785That movie "Short Circuit" from back in the early 90's! Amirite? Whaddu-ai get? :p
Nope. He's referring to No. 5 of the site's
Code of Conduct - sigged by yours truly, but compiled by the gentleman you're responding to.
Quote from: jibbajibba;759065But we will also need written statements from players at each of those games along with your level of commitment in each case.
We will need your college statements an IQ test and a copy of your passport and birth certificate and we will still think you are a muslim Kenyan who works for Bin Laden even if you did end up killing him.
Was going to add in Yes this is live face to face in person, not any of that play by post or over the net bullshit.
But that would be rubbing it in.
Quote from: Sommerjon;760121Was going to add in Yes this is live face to face in person, not any of that play by post or over the net bullshit.
But that would be rubbing it in.
Ooh burn. ssssst
Quote from: jibbajibba;759065But we will also need written statements from players at each of those games along with your level of commitment in each case.
We will need your college statements an IQ test and a copy of your passport and birth certificate and we will still think you are a muslim Kenyan who works for Bin Laden even if you did end up killing him.
Don't forget the sample of brain tissue. :D
Bottom line is. So far Pundit was right. Yes. Miracles do occur! Praise Gygax!
Despite Mearls and WOTCs best efforts to make things appear totally off kilter at first. Yes. Miracles do occur! Praise Loraine!
Points to WOTC and Mearls for previewing pages as they go.
Quote from: Omega;760149Bottom line is. So far Pundit was right. Yes. Miracles do occur! Praise Gygax!
Despite Mearls and WOTCs best efforts to make things appear totally off kilter at first. Yes. Miracles do occur! Praise Loraine!
Points to WOTC and Mearls for previewing pages as they go.
Hey at least it's something to talk about during football's offseason.:D
What? <---->.
Quote from: Marleycat;760157Hey at least it's something to talk about during football's offseason.:D
Offseason? The World Cup is happening right now!
Quote from: jeff37923;760164Offseason? The World Cup is happening right now!
Damn you, beat me to it.
Germany tied Ghana, today, I can't believe it. Sunday is a huge game for the US. If we can beat or tie Portugal tomorrow, we're guaranteed to get out of our group into the bracket.
Quote from: CRKrueger;760165Damn you, beat me to it.
Germany tied Ghana, today, I can't believe it. Sunday is a huge game for the US. If we can beat or tie Portugal tomorrow, we're guaranteed to get out of our group into the bracket.
I know!!! I am in shock. You know that the US squad has the top MSL guys from Seattle and Kansas City on it? Both kicking ass and taking names.:)
@Jeff, that's Futbol not football.;) Though we need to beat Portugal because Germany has a big goal differential against the whole Group.
Quote from: jeff37923;760164Offseason? The World Cup is happening right now!
I'm watching Full Metal Jousting. ow. just... ow.
Quote from: Marleycat;760180I know!!! I am in shock. You know that the US squad has the top MSL guys from Seattle and Kansas City on it? Both kicking ass and taking names.:)
@Jeff, that's Futbol not football.;) Though we need to beat Portugal because Germany has a big goal differential against the whole Group.
You'd be wanting maximum points against Portugal because Germany should get the full points against the USA.
Closed.