There once was a Tekumel box (Gardasiyal?) set that lacked character generation. You had to go get another product to do that. How'd that work out?

Didn't they just get some 3D printer for minis? Chargen is probably online then you can order a mini of your character, all custom like.

From the Enworld frontpage summarizing some of the tweets:

QuoteMike Mearls also adds "You will not need the MM or DMG to run a campaign. Or the PH or Starter Set to make a character" and "You will be able to run a complete campaign starting in August, with the release of the PH."  He also adds "To clear up the Starter Set - it's aimed at DMs, so no PC creation in the box. But players will be able to make characters without it. For a DM running the starter set, there will be pregens to hand out. Players who want to make characters will be able to do so."

My [Russ Morrissey's] complete wild guess? "You will not need PH or Starter Set to make a character" means simply that there will be an online character builder from launch. That's only a guess, though. On digital stuff in general (including PDFs), Mike said "Sorry, can't talk about that yet - still some issues to iron out on the digital front." Very secretive, but it sounds hopeful.

Smells like digital tools/offerings, apps whatnot to me.

Whatever else there is, the starter set is a glorified add without chargen. Whatever this secret is can it be part of a toys for tots donation with that add 'starter set' or instead of it? Cause otherwise it doesn't much change the fact that it's cripple ware.

Quote from: tenbones;750897But to me, D&D is like the high-school girlfriend that turned into a whore.

D&D...do it in the butt.

Quote from: CRKrueger;750920Pundit however, who's been pretty harsh on crippleware, says it's not crippleware, and there's something we don't know. :hmm:

Crippleware + Pundy's name in the credits = Awesomeware!

I am betting on the transmedia piece. Online chargen so if you buy the crapass box set, you can make your own character via an app or website.

Anyone taking bets that the transmedia launch is going to go off without a technical glitch??? Maybe we're getting that online game table we were promised in the back of the 3e PHB. Ah, the memories.

Quote from: Benoist;750780No character gen in the starter set is a no buy from me. I will not buy a D&D boxed set to offer my cousins, nephews, the kids I know etc, that does not include the primary feature of a tabletop role playing game: creating an alter-ego of your own to explore the worlds of your imagination pretending to be whoever you want, however you want. This is not rocket science. Really.

Yes, the ability to create characters of your imagination in the box is a pretty damn minimal requirement for any starter set. It's far more important to bringing in new players to RPGs than anything else I can think of. It's also vital to giving the box enough playability to assess the game.

When all WoTC has to do is copy Paizo's example, with the benefit of the D&D brand and without the disbenefit of a hopelessly complex rules system to work around*, why do they fail so hard?

*The Paizo PBB does a good job of working around 3e's inherent clunkiness, but they could have done even better if able to start from scratch and make a cleaner system.

Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.

No, a good move (for a game more complex than Mentzer Red Box) is to include both pregens and full chargen rules. Again, the Pathfinder Beginner Box shows how to do it, with a sample pregen for each of the four classes. This gives you the best of both worlds.

Paizo does it for $35, but that includes a $15 flipmat, plus three sheets of excellent heavy cardstock pawns, and their plastic bases. Also the PBB has a 64 page player's book and a fat 96 page GM's book with tons of GMing advice, encounter tables etc - they could have had a 64 page GM's book and still been pretty comprehensive. If WoTC had to skimp on some of that lavishness to get the price point down, they could have - a 64 page player's book with full rules to level 5 and just a 32 page GM's book if they had to be stingy.

Quote from: David Johansen;750846You know what I'd like to see in a starter box one day.  Mapping stickers.  One sheet for doing your dungeons and another for doing your own world.   Because the number one feature they should be pushing is that this is a game where you can create something of your own.

Stickers? That's a fantastic idea, especially for dungeon geomorphs! Wow! :cool::cool::cool:

We have tons of those child's sticker books about the house - the netbook I'm typing this on is plastered with Lego Movie stickers. The technology would be absolutely perfect for swift and easy dungeon creation. I'd buy that for a dollar (or ten).

Quote from: S'mon;750929Yes, the ability to create characters of your imagination in the box is a pretty damn minimal requirement for any starter set. It's far more important to bringing in new players to RPGs than anything else I can think of. It's also vital to giving the box enough playability to assess the game.

When all WoTC has to do is copy Paizo's example, with the benefit of the D&D brand and without the disbenefit of a hopelessly complex rules system to work around*, why do they fail so hard?

*The Paizo PBB does a good job of working around 3e's inherent clunkiness, but they could have done even better if able to start from scratch and make a cleaner system.

But (and agreed it a big but) there is a free phone app for PC generation then you can generate your own PCs whenever you like.
Everyone with a phone (and that is about 90% of the population over 12 , shit I was in Burma last week and everyone in Burma has a smartphone and they have a GDP per capita of $1300) can create D&D characters whenever they like. So anyone coming to your game can get their PC set up and either ewrite it up for play if you are bing a grouch and not allowing phones at the table or track it on an onlice Character sheet.

Quote from: jibbajibba;750934But (and agreed it a big but) there is a free phone app for PC generation then you can generate your own PCs whenever you like.
Everyone with a phone (and that is about 90% of the population over 12 , shit I was in Burma last week and everyone in Burma has a smartphone and they have a GDP per capita of $1300) can create D&D characters whenever they like. So anyone coming to your game can get their PC set up and either ewrite it up for play if you are bing a grouch and not allowing phones at the table or track it on an onlice Character sheet.

Phone apps are a perfectly fine supplement to paper rules, though not something I'd use. But I hate it when my players bring their PF or 4e PC 'on their phone' and then take 5 minutes to locate the necessary info. There's no substitute for paper IME.

IMO "No printed chargen, but you can make one on your phone" is epic marketing fail. It might work for some demographics; it's not going to work for the parents & children 'family game' demographic, which I would have thought was an important target market these days. Nor will it work for people who value the tactile game experience of tabletop play as a break from computer gaming.

I'm getting flashbacks to "shut up! you're not the target market!"

Quote from: Benoist;750780No character gen in the starter set is a no buy from me. I will not buy a D&D boxed set to offer my cousins, nephews, the kids I know etc, that does not include the primary feature of a tabletop role playing game: creating an alter-ego of your own to explore the worlds of your imagination pretending to be whoever you want, however you want. This is not rocket science. Really.

Wait and see.

Quote from: The_Shadow;750786Sounds like Pundit is weaseling around the fact that there is no chargen in the set, which he well knows makes it crippleware.

What part of "this will absolutely not be crippleware" is in the least bit 'weasely'?
You could infer that I'm lying, if you think I'm a liar.

Alternately, you could trust me in that I sincerely feel that the starter set is going to be good.

Quote from: S'mon;750935Phone apps are a perfectly fine supplement to paper rules, though not something I'd use. But I hate it when my players bring their PF or 4e PC 'on their phone' and then take 5 minutes to locate the necessary info. There's no substitute for paper IME.

IMO "No printed chargen, but you can make one on your phone" is epic marketing fail. It might work for some demographics; it's not going to work for the parents & children 'family game' demographic, which I would have thought was an important target market these days. Nor will it work for people who value the tactile game experience of tabletop play as a break from computer gaming.

But you could like you know write the generated PC down on a bit of paper once its done.... Fits on an A5 index card after all.

I have stated elsewhere I would have added a player book to the base set for an extra 10 bucks at about 50 pages and I would sell it stand alone next to the box set as well ... but the Nerdrage at them not providing chargen in a starter set aimed as an entry point product in tandem it would seem with some sort of free char gen option is hysterical.

Why would anyone here be interested in a starter set? Especially if the base rules are exposed as has been suggested. It's truly a sign that you simply can not please RPG fans.

Quote from: Skywalker;750800IMO the move makes it clear that WotC's intended utility of the starter set is a "pay to preview" rather than a set to get new players into the game.

No. My position (again, the ONLY actually INFORMED rather than speculative position here) is that this set will be specifically ideal for bringing new players into the game.