Quote from: jhkim on September 06, 2024, 03:25:37 PMWorking for years at a low-paying gig doesn't necessarily lead to great things.

No, it doesn't. But working for years is, in most cases, a prerequisite to making a modest living. It's a prerequisite, but not a guarantee. However, most people are unwilling or unable to do that.

Again, it's like the gym. If you come three times a week for ten years and eat a whole lot of good food, will you squat 200kg? Probably not. But if you don't do those things you certainly won't squat 200kg.

Most people won't put the work in, so they never get to find out. You mentioned how many new RPGs were being written - something which probably not even drivethrurpg knows is the average number of titles per authour. I'd expect it's fewer than 3-4. There'll be a stack of authours who wrote one, a very few authours who wrote dozens, and almost nobody who wrote hundreds of titles.

Most people get into things, realise how much work they'll have to do for how long in order to have a chance of significant results - and quit. So it's not about it being the niche of a niche and all that. After all, what's the most popular media on the internet? Pornography. And how many people make a living from that? Few of those performing in it, that's for sure. So it's not a matter of how popular the particular genre is. It's a matter of working hard for a long time - and then maybe being successful.

Quote from: Mishihari on September 06, 2024, 07:58:09 PM?
The TLDR is that the dynamics of the RPG industry basically suck if you want to make a profit, especially for new entrants.  Since the cost of getting in is minimal, a lot of folks are going to try it, find out there's little money in it, and quit.  Hence many abandoned games, even pretty good ones.

Exactly. Ttrpgs give you a lot of creative freedom and expression compared to other mediums like tv or movies or prose. You can put your series bible in the customer's hand and let them write their own episodes. Unfortunately, it's not an industry you go into for profit and you need to really nurture your work to attract players.

I recently chatted with a writer who published his own indie rulebook. He told me he wasn't gonna publish a setting book unless the sales justified it.

Ttrpgs are basically the old adage "don't go into writing as your job, go into it as a hobby."

I've tried pitching ttrpgs before and it's like herding cats. Rabid cats.

That's why I'm only ever writing simple rules and giving stuff away for free.

Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2024, 02:20:00 AMIt sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.

I'm not enjoying any media. Hollywood movies are crap. Books are crap. Video games are crap. Everything is crap. A huge part of that is because they're relying on nostalgia for properties from the 80s rather than creating anything with soul. It's all just content that has nothing to say beyond "buy product and get excited for more product." I don't understand why anyone keeps buying this slop beyond simple pressure to conform. I want to see new franchises with new ideas, not endless requels.

If you hate everything, it's you.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.

^^This^^

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.

Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap.  Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 08:01:25 AM

QuoteIt sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.

I'm not enjoying any media. Hollywood movies are crap. Books are crap. Video games are crap. Everything is crap. A huge part of that is because they're relying on nostalgia for properties from the 80s rather than creating anything with soul. It's all just content that has nothing to say beyond "buy product and get excited for more product." I don't understand why anyone keeps buying this slop beyond simple pressure to conform. I want to see new franchises with new ideas, not endless requels.

I sympathize. It can be easy to look at the entertainment landscape and conclude that Western Culture burned itself out somewhere around the turn of the milennium, and has been limping along on fumes ever since. As unsatisfying as it is, the answer is that if you want new, seek old. Lemme try and make some actually useful recommendations.

Videogames: This is the easiest. Browse Good Old Games, and/or take up emulation. I use Retroarch for everything PS2 and earlier. If you like shooters, the "GManLives" Youtube channel has reviewed pretty much every one ever made. If you like RPGs, then between "Mortismal Games" and "Click4gameplay" they've probably covered them all.

Movies: A bit tougher. If you have Turner Classic Movies, just watching at random times will clue you into some interesting stuff. HBO Max has a few TCM movies at any given time, but it tends to be the famous stuff. Amazon Prime has an insane number of 70s and 80s low-budget genre movies, but you need a high schlock tolerance to enjoy them. Shudder used to be good. No idea if it still is.

Books: This is going to sound like a joke, but its a serious recommendation. Take a day off; put "used bookstores" into google maps and just wander around. My job occasionally lands me in a strange city with nothing to do for a few hours, and this is what I always do. I've found some of my favorite books this way.

Quote from: Mishihari on September 07, 2024, 10:28:49 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.

Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap.  Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.

True, but you can still find good stuff, mainly in realms where true indies can exist like books, comics, ttrpgs.

BCT is just blackpilled to the extreme, because he wants to be able to use the same IPs he decries as nostalgia and can't

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 08:01:25 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on September 06, 2024, 07:58:09 PM?
The TLDR is that the dynamics of the RPG industry basically suck if you want to make a profit, especially for new entrants.  Since the cost of getting in is minimal, a lot of folks are going to try it, find out there's little money in it, and quit.  Hence many abandoned games, even pretty good ones.

Exactly. Ttrpgs give you a lot of creative freedom and expression compared to other mediums like tv or movies or prose. You can put your series bible in the customer's hand and let them write their own episodes. Unfortunately, it's not an industry you go into for profit and you need to really nurture your work to attract players.

I recently chatted with a writer who published his own indie rulebook. He told me he wasn't gonna publish a setting book unless the sales justified it.

Ttrpgs are basically the old adage "don't go into writing as your job, go into it as a hobby."

I've tried pitching ttrpgs before and it's like herding cats. Rabid cats.

That's why I'm only ever writing simple rules and giving stuff away for free.

Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2024, 02:20:00 AMIt sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.

I'm not enjoying any media. Hollywood movies are crap. Books are crap. Video games are crap. Everything is crap. A huge part of that is because they're relying on nostalgia for properties from the 80s rather than creating anything with soul. It's all just content that has nothing to say beyond "buy product and get excited for more product." I don't understand why anyone keeps buying this slop beyond simple pressure to conform. I want to see new franchises with new ideas, not endless requels.

Be the change you want to see, I'm working on a Sword & Planet ttrpg, The main setting is Venus, but I could use a few other planets, write up a totally-not-mongo, with it's own creatures and history (the lore you sometimes hate), give me a list with all the monsters and sentients and I'll stat them up for my game.

I do the editting, formatting also, we go 50/50 of any hypothetical profits.

It has become clear to me that I am no longer the target demographic for most media these days.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 12:39:45 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on September 07, 2024, 10:28:49 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.

Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap.  Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.

True, but you can still find good stuff, mainly in realms where true indies can exist like books, comics, ttrpgs.

BCT is just blackpilled to the extreme, because he wants to be able to use the same IPs he decries as nostalgia and can't

I don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 07, 2024, 10:43:45 AMBooks: This is going to sound like a joke, but its a serious recommendation. Take a day off; put "used bookstores" into google maps and just wander around. My job occasionally lands me in a strange city with nothing to do for a few hours, and this is what I always do. I've found some of my favorite books this way.

I do this too.  It's also a good way to find interesting parts of town that aren't in the tourist guides and meet interesting people.  Highly recommended. 

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 07, 2024, 10:43:45 AMI sympathize. It can be easy to look at the entertainment landscape and conclude that Western Culture burned itself out somewhere around the turn of the milennium, and has been limping along on fumes ever since. 

  Cultural Ground Zero. 1997.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2024, 04:01:31 PMOr, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?

Quote from: estar on September 06, 2024, 03:11:01 PMThere are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone.

I think this is a big part of the reason why.  There are so many ttrpgs available that no one can even keep track of them all let alone buy, read or use them.  There's just too many.  How does a small publisher get their product noticed in the sea of other products competing for the attention of a relatively small number of customers?  I think, inevitably, a lot of them just don't.             

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 05:00:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 12:39:45 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on September 07, 2024, 10:28:49 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.

Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap.  Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.

True, but you can still find good stuff, mainly in realms where true indies can exist like books, comics, ttrpgs.

BCT is just blackpilled to the extreme, because he wants to be able to use the same IPs he decries as nostalgia and can't

I don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.

Well, you're not looking really hard if at all:

Pundit's stuff
Kevin Crawford
DCC (even if they're going woke at breakneck speed)
Rob Necronomicon's Terminus
The zombie city by Grim Jim

And that's just of the top of my head without stopping to think, none of which is a retro-clone nor does it use other's IP.

IMHO you're blackpilled, want to remain like that and will rationalize to justify doing so.

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 07, 2024, 08:27:30 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2024, 04:01:31 PMOr, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?

Quote from: estar on September 06, 2024, 03:11:01 PMThere are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone.

I think this is a big part of the reason why.  There are so many ttrpgs available that no one can even keep track of them all let alone buy, read or use them.  There's just too many.  How does a small publisher get their product noticed in the sea of other products competing for the attention of a relatively small number of customers?  I think, inevitably, a lot of them just don't.             

Which brings us to the next question, what can be done? Can we (the royal we) do it?

IMHO what we need is a filter, someone or several someones to go find the good stuff and help both the public find it and the creator to sell it.

I think we can do it, and as soon as I figure out OBS Studio I'm going to start a podcast for that. Also need a co-host(s) in the same time zone or close enough.