How many pages or how long should even the most complex, detailed, setting take? Or is it more the way it's presented than the amount?

I don't think total amount of volume is very important if you're not OCD about all of it being CANON AND IN YOUR FACE. But I think you should really try to fit all the important parts of it (that you need to understand to start playing) in like 10-20 pages, tops. If it doesn't fit, choose just the parts that are most relevant and keep the detailed wank in the back of the book.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;619448How many pages or how long should even the most complex, detailed, setting take? Or is it more the way it's presented than the amount?

Eh, how long is a piece of string. I can only give my opinions:

1/ Know your audience and attention span.
2/ It is all about the way it's presented.

A friend of mine has recently compared the effort preparing "freeforms" (Live Action murder-mystery type stuff) and LARP, in terms of amount written per head and per hour of play. It varies an awful lot, for the same standard of result (i.e. positive feedback from the players that they had a great time).

There is no should. I do have OCD with this kind of thing and have trained myself out of writing screeds of text. These days the players get half a page if they're lucky. Trick is to write killer not filler.

My peers write much longer backgrounds and it works for them, but there comes a point where players stop taking notice--say, after 2 pages of briefing. IMHO we don't value the skill of editing highly enough, it makes a big difference to how your message is received.

FWIW I have little respect or patience for fluff (White Wolf, etc).

Update: for writing settings for campaign play, I'm wary about writing things that the players will never experience.

I would say you would need to encapsulate it in about 200 words or less.

Ever read a book you didn't want to end? If it's good, it can be as long as you like. If it's not, why are you writing it?

I was just thinking about this this morning, and how some settings seem very easy to explain/jump into with a minimal amount of discussion, while others remain pretty inaccessible.

Stuff like Kalamar, Shadow World always seemed to just be too much to jump into. On the other hand, Hellfrost, which has about as much material written for it as any active setting out there, is pretty easy to get. I'm not so certain it's as much about volume as just how the material is presented.

Definitely in the presentation.

You need the High Concept version, the Elevator Pitch version, the "What would my character know about my home" version, and then reveal other stuff as the campaign unfolds.  I've found if a player wants to know something, they'll ask, if there's something a player definitely should know and they don't, I tell them.  Usually if you tell the player something key about the setting and they realize that adjusted what they were going to do, they'll figure out that they need to learn more and will start asking more questions.

Also it has a lot to do with names.  Kalamar for example has different languages and you eventually learn just by looking at the name of something what language it comes from, but it can be hard to get into.

What do you mean by the high concept version?

High Concept is a one or two word summary of something to get an idea of what it is about.  The movie Snakes on a Plane supposedly was named for the high concept that was the original pitch.

Rohan would be "Anglo-Saxons on Horses".
"Hamlet in WWII" or any other funky remake
Firefly could be "Reconstruction meets Han Solo"
"Robin Williams in Drag" Mrs. Doubtfire

Used in gaming to usually give a easily identifiable mental hook that players can relate to.
Celtic Sea Raiders
Black Elven Mongols riding Warcats
Forest Iriquois Elves
The capital is like Moorish Cordoba before the Reconquista.
Rohirrim bound to the worship of a L/E war god
Etc.

I like a broadly detailed world, with at least one region very detailed (as a starting area).

A one-page overview presented using bullet points is far more interesting to me than a lengthy three-page summary/manifesto from the woods.

Quote from: CRKrueger;619528You need the High Concept version, the Elevator Pitch version, the "What would my character know about my home" version, and then reveal other stuff as the campaign unfolds.

This is terrific advice, really good structural thinking. I may steal.

Sorry, bit drunk.

Quote from: CRKrueger;619528Definitely in the presentation.

You need the High Concept version, the Elevator Pitch version, the "What would my character know about my home" version, and then reveal other stuff as the campaign unfolds.  I've found if a player wants to know something, they'll ask, if there's something a player definitely should know and they don't, I tell them.  Usually if you tell the player something key about the setting and they realize that adjusted what they were going to do, they'll figure out that they need to learn more and will start asking more questions.

How do you achieve this in an rpg book?

I would say definitely in the presentation.

I've seen gamebooks where there was 200 pages of setting material, and the whole thing was just counterproductive, ponderous and failed to really transmit any kind of zeitgeist of the world; and I've seen books with 16 pages of setting material that gave you a rich and full world full of spirit and sufficient material to run a decent campaign.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;619912I would say definitely in the presentation.

I've seen gamebooks where there was 200 pages of setting material, and the whole thing was just counterproductive, ponderous and failed to really transmit any kind of zeitgeist of the world; and I've seen books with 16 pages of setting material that gave you a rich and full world full of spirit and sufficient material to run a decent campaign.

RPGPundit

Out of curiosity (because I'm always on the lookout for this sort of thing), would you have a good example or two of something approaching the latter?