Quote from: Daztur;879560Also the seeming lack of digestion seems rather undead...

This reminds me of Attack on Titan. The giants in that series crave human flesh even though their digestive systems are incomplete; they have stomachs, but no intestines or anuses. They just chew people up so they can regurgitate them later.

*edit*
Also, what did you make of the wolf disguising itself as grandma? Illustrations always show the silly image of a rather obvious wolf simply dressed up like a grandma. Did you get that impression from reading the story?

Quote from: Cave Bear;879563This reminds me of Attack on Titan. The giants in that series crave human flesh even though their digestive systems are incomplete; they have stomachs, but no intestines or anuses. They just chew people up so they can regurgitate them later.

*edit*
Also, what did you make of the wolf disguising itself as grandma? Illustrations always show the silly image of a rather obvious wolf simply dressed up like a grandma. Did you get that impression from reading the story?

The relevant bit of the story goes like this:

Quote"Oh, my God, how frightened I feel today, and usually I like to be at grandmother's." Then she went to the bed and drew back the curtains. There lay her grandmother with her cap pulled down over her face, giving her a strange appearance.

Then it goes into the standard question and answer about the wolf's appearance.

So she can FEEL the presence of the wolf before even seeing it. Interesting.

Also if we assume that these wolves can regenerate like a lot of werewolves and vampires then the "cut the belly open and fill it with stones" gambit starts to make more sense. Having a belly full of stones is not the sort of thing that regeneration can heal.

Fairy Tale 27: Death and the Goose Boy

This one is a strange little riff on Charon the boatman. A goose boy is herding cheese by a river and sees death come across, the talks to Death about what he's doing and asks if Death can take him across the river. Death says he has some things to do first and goes and pushes a rich man into the river so he drowns. The rich man's cats and dogs follow him in and also drown.

Then Death takes the goose boy willingly across the river and his geese turn into sheep. He's happy because he heard that in this country shepherds can become kings, so he's obviously in heaven and talking about Jesus.

Not a lot to chew on here. While we do have people travelling to other planes through portals (namely a well in fairy tale 24) in most cases people can just go to supernatural places by taking a hike. I think it's important, though, in making a fairy tale setting to not map out where stuff is, at least not precisely. You get to the right place by following the road or a guide, not by following a map. Fairy tale navigation is HARD and an RPG should reflect that.

My question for you is what's the deal with the cats and dogs that got drowned following their rich master into River non-Styx?

Up next: The Singing Bone

Quote from: Daztur;879650The relevant bit of the story goes like this:



Then it goes into the standard question and answer about the wolf's appearance.

So she can FEEL the presence of the wolf before even seeing it. Interesting.

Also if we assume that these wolves can regenerate like a lot of werewolves and vampires then the "cut the belly open and fill it with stones" gambit starts to make more sense. Having a belly full of stones is not the sort of thing that regeneration can heal.

More importantly, it's been pushed in running water. It's a purifying ritual, and both vampires and werewolves are unclean, despite their current status as sex symbols (propagated by the ignorant:)).
And regeneration doesn't help with drowning, either.

Quote from: Daztur;879654Fairy Tale 27: Death and the Goose Boy

This one is a strange little riff on Charon the boatman. A goose boy is herding cheese by a river and sees death come across, the talks to Death about what he's doing and asks if Death can take him across the river. Death says he has some things to do first and goes and pushes a rich man into the river so he drowns. The rich man's cats and dogs follow him in and also drown.

Then Death takes the goose boy willingly across the river and his geese turn into sheep. He's happy because he heard that in this country shepherds can become kings, so he's obviously in heaven and talking about Jesus.

Not a lot to chew on here. While we do have people travelling to other planes through portals (namely a well in fairy tale 24) in most cases people can just go to supernatural places by taking a hike. I think it's important, though, in making a fairy tale setting to not map out where stuff is, at least not precisely. You get to the right place by following the road or a guide, not by following a map. Fairy tale navigation is HARD and an RPG should reflect that.

My question for you is what's the deal with the cats and dogs that got drowned following their rich master into River non-Styx?

Up next: The Singing Bone

You know what they say about the camel and the rich guy? Well, that's Heavens.
And whoever follows the rich one, shall perish as well.

I'm sure there is another explanation, too. But that one also conforms to fairy tale logic, where being the mother of a murderer also makes you a target, just ask Beowulf about Grendel;).

Quote from: Daztur;879650Also if we assume that these wolves can regenerate like a lot of werewolves and vampires then the "cut the belly open and fill it with stones" gambit starts to make more sense. Having a belly full of stones is not the sort of thing that regeneration can heal.

If the wolf is a sort of undead with regeneration then perhaps it doesn't even feel pain; hence how they are able to cut the wolf open without it noticing.

Quote from: AsenRG;879672More importantly, it's been pushed in running water. It's a purifying ritual, and both vampires and werewolves are unclean, despite their current status as sex symbols (propagated by the ignorant:)).
And regeneration doesn't help with drowning, either.

Yup, that's what happens in the Seven Kids story but in the Little Red Riding Hood addendum the wolf falls down due to all the rocks and smashes his head. Still, interesting. I like these ideas about the ways to get rid of evil critters in which just chopping them to bits with a sword isn't enough.

I'm also edging more towards explicit Christianity. I was thinking of having a fairy tale trinity of deities but will probably repurpose them:
1. The Lady in Green: influenced by the Lady of the Lake and Artemis. The goddess of prophesy, animals, ponds and springs and all green things. Famous for favoring certain mortals while screwing other ones over with terrible curses.
2. The Man in the Moon: influenced by Odin, Herne the Hunter, the Wild Hunt and fairy tale Satan. The lord of hunter and darkness with a surprisingly strong sense of fair play. Famous for testing and striking deal with mortals, usually to their detriment.
3. The Queen in Splendour: sun goddess influenced by Hera at her worst and the Queen of Hearts. The goddess of light, fertility, motherhood. Incredibly domineering and famous for making mad demands of mortals.

Fairy Tale 28: The Singing Bone

A wild boar is causing "great damage" and kills anyone who goes in the forest so the king offers his daughter to anyone who can kill it.

Three brothers decide to go hunt it and the third is an idiot so he's the hero of course. Then the youngest son enters the forest a "little man" gives him a lance to kill the boar with.

He kills the boar and is carrying it home and on the way back sees his older brothers drinking and they invite him to join them. On the way back they beat him to death, bury him under a bridge and the eldest brother marries the princess.

Later a shepherd makes a flute out of one of the youngest son's bones and when he plays it the flute tells the story of what happened.

The shepherd takes the bone to the king and when he finds out what happened he throws the has the older brothers killed and thrown in a river while the younger brother gets reburied in a fancy grave.

What can we get from this one?

Pigs > Kings

Some initial thoughts are that damn is this kingdom weak if it needs to beg for help to deal with a pig. This fits with my older ideas about these kingdoms being pocket sized. They're almost more like overgrown independent farm steddings (Icelandic-style) than proper countries so marrying a princess and becoming a king is an important milestone for a PC but not really something that'd give him armies at his disposal and completely upend the campaign.

Also note how the magical is mundane (the supernatural threat is just a pig) and the mundane (a random guy's bone) is magical. For fairy tales it's vital to blur the line between what's magical and what isn't. In most version of D&D this line is far too clear.

Will have to think more about these "little men" of the woods and what sort of elves they represent.

On Death and Burial

The way I'm imagining the mechanics of magic in a fairy tale world, all long-term magic is powered by spell slots. So if you want to enchant your house so that all of the cookies stay fresh for ever that'll cost a first level spell slot and you can never get that spell slot back as long as the effect remains in place.

This applies to magical items as well which is why so many are made with a certain specific purpose in mind: so that the caster can get their damn spell slot back after its used.

Now the interesting thing here is that the death of the caster does not necessarily end these magical effects. Just killing the witch who cursed you isn't necessarily going to break the curse. You have to either extinguish the witch's soul entirely or sever its connection to the mortal realm.

Sometimes a Christian burial will do the trick but for really nasty people you need a proper symbolic death that will be so shocking that it drives off their soul and dispels their magic. Hence rolling witches around in barrels of snakes and making them dance in red hot iron shoes (thanks for the great idea upthread!) or dumping the brothers into the same spot where they killed their brother.

I also like the idea of players wondering if they should give a Christian burial to the bandits they just killed (reduces the chance of ghosts) or just leave them there and press on ahead (saves time).

Also is people are killed in a way that keeps their soul in the mortal realm the power of their ghost or of the magical effect that happens after their death (such as making their bone sing) is determined by how many spell slots they have free at the time of their death.

Whenever I hear the fairy tales tell me that a character is an idiot, the first thing I think is magic-user. Their good fortune (like meeting the helpful elf) fits right in with the kind of mundane magic that these fairy tales seem to focus on, the kind of magic where a powerful and useful spell is "summon normal fish." That's why the third brother's bone sang.

Up next: The Devil and the Three Golden Hairs

Quote from: Daztur;882357I'm also edging more towards explicit Christianity. I was thinking of having a fairy tale trinity of deities but will probably repurpose them:
1. The Lady in Green: influenced by the Lady of the Lake and Artemis. The goddess of prophesy, animals, ponds and springs and all green things. Famous for favoring certain mortals while screwing other ones over with terrible curses.
2. The Man in the Moon: influenced by Odin, Herne the Hunter, the Wild Hunt and fairy tale Satan. The lord of hunter and darkness with a surprisingly strong sense of fair play. Famous for testing and striking deal with mortals, usually to their detriment.
3. The Queen in Splendour: sun goddess influenced by Hera at her worst and the Queen of Hearts. The goddess of light, fertility, motherhood. Incredibly domineering and famous for making mad demands of mortals.

You could take a syncretic approach where your heathen trinity exists as relict pagan holdovers alongside explicit Christianity.
Christianity is practiced among civilized people, and pagan idolatry becomes more prevalent as you get farther from civilization. That seems like it fit in with some of the themes you are working with.

QuoteWhenever I hear the fairy tales tell me that a character is an idiot, the first thing I think is magic-user. Their good fortune (like meeting the helpful elf) fits right in with the kind of mundane magic that these fairy tales seem to focus on, the kind of magic where a powerful and useful spell is "summon normal fish." That's why the third brother's bone sang.

Maybe magic is more closely associated with the Charisma ability than Intelligence?

Quote from: Daztur;882357Yup, that's what happens in the Seven Kids story but in the Little Red Riding Hood addendum the wolf falls down due to all the rocks and smashes his head. Still, interesting. I like these ideas about the ways to get rid of evil critters in which just chopping them to bits with a sword isn't enough.

I'm also edging more towards explicit Christianity. I was thinking of having a fairy tale trinity of deities but will probably repurpose them:
1. The Lady in Green: influenced by the Lady of the Lake and Artemis. The goddess of prophesy, animals, ponds and springs and all green things. Famous for favoring certain mortals while screwing other ones over with terrible curses.
2. The Man in the Moon: influenced by Odin, Herne the Hunter, the Wild Hunt and fairy tale Satan. The lord of hunter and darkness with a surprisingly strong sense of fair play. Famous for testing and striking deal with mortals, usually to their detriment.
3. The Queen in Splendour: sun goddess influenced by Hera at her worst and the Queen of Hearts. The goddess of light, fertility, motherhood. Incredibly domineering and famous for making mad demands of mortals.

I like them:).

Quote from: Daztur;882365Some initial thoughts are that damn is this kingdom weak if it needs to beg for help to deal with a pig.

Also note how the magical is mundane (the supernatural threat is just a pig) and the mundane (a random guy's bone) is magical. For fairy tales it's vital to blur the line between what's magical and what isn't. In most version of D&D this line is far too clear.

Keep in mind, various epics from today's UK mention boars attacking a kingdom, too, and knights being sought after to fight them, and not managing to stop them outright;). A huge boar is a murder machine.
Also, those boar talked, and didn't want to give a haircomb.
I get the impression that in the older myths,which this is based on, the boar has the place of the Grandfather Bear in what is known as Slavic myth.

Totally agree that the mundane should have repercussions in the invisible world. It's hard to overemphasize this.
Also, you really want to read Artesia for an example of a game that does that:D!

Quote from: Cave Bear;882441You could take a syncretic approach where your heathen trinity exists as relict pagan holdovers alongside explicit Christianity.
Christianity is practiced among civilized people, and pagan idolatry becomes more prevalent as you get farther from civilization. That seems like it fit in with some of the themes you are working with.

Maybe magic is more closely associated with the Charisma ability than Intelligence?

Yes, but that's actually not enough. Make people believe the heathen trinity is equal to, or actually the same as the Christian trinity (different people would believe differently, and this might be grounds for arguments and murder).
And yet others would recognise they are not related, but still would pay "protection racket". Leaving a cup of milk for the Domovoy was done until the 20th century in, say, Belarus;).

And magic is definitely Charisma-based.

Quote from: Cave Bear;882441You could take a syncretic approach where your heathen trinity exists as relict pagan holdovers alongside explicit Christianity.
Christianity is practiced among civilized people, and pagan idolatry becomes more prevalent as you get farther from civilization. That seems like it fit in with some of the themes you are working with.

That's sort of what you get in the Pendragon games, but I'm not sure that's what I want here. Seems anachronistic. I like the approach to Grandmother Frost a few fairy tales ago in which she's pretty obviously a pagan goddess but nobody would think to call her that or worship her.

So sort of I Can't Believe They're Not Deities. Plenty of people going to church on Sunday after asking for the Man in the Moon's protection on Saturday night. They wouldn't grant spells but they would certainly be able to teach a witch some. No temples, no priests, but everyone respects them.

For the fairy lord trinity the seed of the idea was that while in English the sun is male and the moon is female in German it's the other way round.

I think I've got a good handle on the Man in the Moon and the Lady in Green but am still struggling a bit to get the Queen in Splendour how I want her.

The Man in the Moon shows up in disguise to test people like Odin, cuts bargains like Satan and leads the Wild Hunt. That's easy to inject into a campaign.

The Lady in Green is enigmatic, makes pets of various beasts and monsters (think Artemis), provides prophesies, blessings and curses and lies in ponds distributing swords. Again, easy.

The Queen in Splendour is easy in the abstract. Terrifying avatar of sunshine, the hearth, motherhood and fluffy bunnies. Combine Hera's jealous rages and the Queen of Heart's arbitrary demands. But having a harder time thinking of how to have her interact with PCs that would give the right tone. Any ideas?

And yes, bowls of milk for the Domovoy are in. Will hit Russian and Korean fairy tales after the Grimms (will take a long time but am in no hurry). Am damn glad my great-grandfather got the hell out of Belarus in 1905 though...

For cha-based casting that's for certain. Fairy tale magic is mostly getting a good reaction roll with the universe. Might have int (learning spells) and wis (more spell slots?) matter a bit too, but cha will be the core magic stat just like str is the core combat stat.

OK, let's procrastinate my report cards a bit more and write another entry.

Fairy Tale 29: The Devil and the Three Golden Hairs

A princess and a woodcutter fall in love so the king tells his daughter "don't you know you can only marry the guy who brings me three golden hairs from the devil?" So off the woodcutter goes to collect them.

On the way to hell the woodcutter claims to random people that he knows everything (why?) so they ask him to solve problems and he tells them "when I return."

The last of these people is not-Charon who asks when he'll be relieved of his ferrying duty. When he gets across into hell (both heaven and hell are reached by crossing rivers, interesting) the devil isn't home so the woodcutter talks to the devil's wife who agrees to help him.

When the devil gets home he does the fe fi fo fum routine but his wife distracts him and puts him to bed. While the devil sleeps his wife pulls his golden hairs out and each time claims it was a nightmare about the various problems that the woodcutter got asked about on his way to hell and when he wakes up the devil grumbles and talks about how they don't know the solution to those problems.

Then woodcutter then goes to get ferried out of hell. On his way back home armed with the devil's knowledge he tells not-Charon that he can leave people stranded in hell until they agree to take over his work, he tells people that a wilted fig tree can be restored by killing the mouse gnawing at its roots, he tells people that a well can be restored by taking out a white stone,  and a princess can be healed by killing the white toad that's sleeping under her bed.

For this he gets various rewards (gold, soldiers, etc.) so he looks pretty good when he goes home to claim the princess as his wife. At this point he king gets cold feet and tries to back out of the marriage pact but the woodcutter threatens him with the soldiers he got as a reward and the wedding is back on and that's it.

A lot to chew on here. Let's hit it.

We're Not in Kansas Anymore

Noisms recent blog post gave me something to chew on here: http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2016/02/things-in-spaces-where-adventure-happens.html which is very much what I want to do with this fairy tale hack as well, magical places where adventures happen are fundamentally different from the farm where the PCs grew up. In some setting the difference is pretty clear like in Narnia or catching the train to Hogwarts while in others the threshold between the magical and the mundane realms are foggier. In some fairy tales the difference is fairy sharp (go down the well and you're in a magical land) but in others you just hit the road and end up in fairy. To make the line a bit more sharp I'm going to import something from Korean folklore, these babies:


These are 장승 (jangseung), basically Korean gargoyles that were places around villages and other spots to keep the evil spirits out or to keep demons from moving through realities. Have these things placed as a threshold around the lands of man in order to clearly show the line between the mundane and fairy. River crossings also generally take you to a new reality, same with wells, water is the best conductor.

It's Not That Easy to Marry the Princess

One common trend I've noticed is that often when a commoner performs a task to marry a princess then either the princess herself or the king try to weasel out of it by demanding more tasks, playing for time or outright murder attempts. Just winning the princess's hand often isn't enough, you generally need military power, wealth and/or social standing to make the marriage stick. This makes it a bit harder for players to get to the victory condition of a royal marriage.

This isn't only for males, in a lot of the stories about common women marrying princes they immediately have to deal with slander and machinations, often from evil mother in-laws.

More Thoughts on 혈 (hyeol)

As I've touched on before 혈 (hyeol) means "chakra point" of which I think there are many many more than the classic five. People have hyeol but so does the land.

Generally you can get good luck by building a house or tomb on top of one of these sites or channel its power by building a temple on it. In fact a whole line of temples were built alongside Korea's eastern mountain range in order to create a whole conduit of gi (qi/chi) from these sites.


OK, what does this have to do with the devil's hair? Western folklore isn't as mountain obsessed as Korea but the land often has focal points in certain holy sites. In Korea those are mountains but in German folklore those are holy groves and springs. And in this story we have the woodcutter proving his worthiness to be king by claiming the land by restoring the damaged well and tree (which are the hyeol of that land).

So in game terms what this means is that each hex has a holy (hyeoly?) site that serves as the focal point of that hex, generally trees or springs but they can be anything. If a king claims them and protects them then the hex becomes Lawful and part of his realm, but if these holy sites are corrupted or go feral then the surrounding hex slowly becomes Neutral (wild) or Chaotic (corrupted). Often the weird-ass royal requests for various items (like golden hairs) are the raw materials for rituals to claim these sites. Have to think more on the mechanics for this.

This is also why royal marriage is important. Patronage of these holy sites can be passed by blood or sex (am thinking of that scene in the Rome TV show where the protagonist symbolically claims his farm by having sex with his wife in the dirt of its fields). If a king dies then his son inherits his pact with the land and his son in-law can claim them through marriage with his daughter but if the king's line fails then the pact is broken and the kingdom begins to turn feral.

Basically good old-fashioned hex clearing but with more mystical blather. This could also explain why whole kingdoms get enchanted if the royal line gets screwed up (think Sleeping Beauty). The king is the land and the land is the king.

Up Next: Little Louse and Little Flea

Quote from: Daztur;882934That's sort of what you get in the Pendragon games, but I'm not sure that's what I want here. Seems anachronistic.

Why? It was being done in the early 20th century, when are you putting it:)?

QuoteAnd yes, bowls of milk for the Domovoy are in. Will hit Russian and Korean fairy tales after the Grimms (will take a long time but am in no hurry). Am damn glad my great-grandfather got the hell out of Belarus in 1905 though...

Sadly, this only reminds me that I'm in front of the same dilemma as your great-grandfather;).

Quote from: AsenRG;883028Why? It was being done in the early 20th century, when are you putting it:)?


Sadly, this only reminds me that I'm in front of the same dilemma as your great-grandfather;).

I mean IIRC in Pendragon Christianity and paganism are separate faiths much like modern day religions in which paganism and Christianity are clearly separate while the fairy tales are full of stuff that are pretty clearly pagan survivals but the people didn't really think of them as anything that was in any way contradictory with Christianity, any more than we moderns think that the periodic table goes against Jesus.

And I hope you're not going to get sent to get shot at by the Japanese and end up dying of black lung in the Pennslyvania coal mines, that would be rough O.o

Fairy Tale 30:  Little Louse and Little Flea

A short animal fable, a louse got scalded while brewing beer in an egg shell (strange, when you brew the beer it isn't that hot otherwise you'll denature the enzymes maybe they're talking about the post-mash boil) and it sets off a chain reaction that results in the flea weeping, a door creaking, a broom sweeping, a cart racing, a dung heap burning, a maiden breaking a jug of water and EVERYONE DYING HORRIBLY!

The way it's set up it's more of a nursery rhyme than a fairy tale, not much here to chew on so what can we do?

Unleash Mothra

It's easy for players to get the feeling that their actions don't matter. This can not only happen in rail road adventures in which the future is mapped out by in badly-DMed sandbox campaigns as well.

The way a lot of sandboxes are set up in many hexes there's a certain event going on when the players show up and that event is going on no matter when the players show up or what they did before they showed up.

Of course having a world in motion is important but I think an especially important part of this is to have player actions unleash as many butterflies as possible, as in a homebrewing mishap resulting in everyone dying rather than having to mop the ceiling like usual.


This is harder the more detailed the setting is, as updating the world as the players smash their way through it can be pretty intense but there are shortcuts through this especially if the setting information is written with broad brush. The easiest way to do this is to have the first thing you think about when the players hit a new area be "how has what the players have been doing affected this area" or by using a wonderful little rule that I'm going to steal that says that each time the PCs start interacting with some random guy who you haven't even bothered to stat out roll a d6 and if it's a six it's someone they've met before.

I also like having the family of random NPCs that the PCs screw over show up a dozen sessions later all Inigo Montoya. Always great fun when the PCs don't even remember their victims from that long ago.

Up next: Maiden without Hands

Quote from: Daztur;883029I mean IIRC in Pendragon Christianity and paganism are separate faiths much like modern day religions in which paganism and Christianity are clearly separate while the fairy tales are full of stuff that are pretty clearly pagan survivals but the people didn't really think of them as anything that was in any way contradictory with Christianity, any more than we moderns think that the periodic table goes against Jesus.

Oh, that, gotcha. Well, I'm talking about only some people, probably a minority, considering it a separate way.
The rest of them would be just "paying spirit protection racket", or simply doing as people have always done. It's quite likely the village priest does that as well:).

QuoteAnd I hope you're not going to get sent to get shot at by the Japanese and end up dying of black lung in the Pennslyvania coal mines, that would be rough O.o

Definitely not, I already have a better life than that here! The idea of migration wouldn't be to worsen it all;).

Though I'm glad it worked out for your family!

Quote from: Daztur;883417This is harder the more detailed the setting is, as updating the world as the players smash their way through it can be pretty intense but there are shortcuts through this especially if the setting information is written with broad brush. The easiest way to do this is to have the first thing you think about when the players hit a new area be "how has what the players have been doing affected this area" or by using a wonderful little rule that I'm going to steal that says that each time the PCs start interacting with some random guy who you haven't even bothered to stat out roll a d6 and if it's a six it's someone they've met before.

Serious question, you mean people aren't doing that already? I just call them ripples on the water. Or sand ripples would do, I guess, since it's a sandbox:D!