Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 16, 2024, 04:59:23 PMSays:

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2024, 04:45:26 PMRegarding the characterization of "I'm above politics; therefore, both sides are wrong here" - that isn't my position.

Proceeds to explain he doesn't care about politics in game, doesn't think politics in RPGs affect the world, and therefore both sides are wrong.

Never change, jhkim.  Sure, the level of self-delusion and duplicitousness in the world would decrease, but so would the humor...

There's a huge difference between saying -

"I'm above politics"

and

"I don't think which RPG I play is important in changing the world politically"

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2024, 05:04:38 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 16, 2024, 04:59:23 PMSays:

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2024, 04:45:26 PMRegarding the characterization of "I'm above politics; therefore, both sides are wrong here" - that isn't my position.

Proceeds to explain he doesn't care about politics in game, doesn't think politics in RPGs affect the world, and therefore both sides are wrong.

Never change, jhkim.  Sure, the level of self-delusion and duplicitousness in the world would decrease, but so would the humor...

There's a huge difference between saying -

"I'm above politics"

and

"I don't think which RPG I play is important in changing the world politically"

No, not really.

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2024, 04:45:26 PMI don't think that tabletop RPGs are very impactful in politics.

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2024, 04:45:26 PMThe bold above is from Eirikrautha. To clarify on release - "Limited release" would mean only distributing certain people - like only at conventions or only to those who preordered. "General release" is when anyone can walk into a store and buy it. The 2024 PHB only goes into general release tomorrow (Sep 17). I stopped by my local hobby store yesterday after church - they confirmed that they can't sell it to me until Tuesday.

Interestingly enough, I just stopped by mine and there were several on sale. I mentioned I was surprised by that and was told that they had been on sale for "a few weeks, maybe a month now?" So they are very much out there in places.

Quote from: Tristan on September 16, 2024, 10:05:02 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2024, 04:45:26 PMThe bold above is from Eirikrautha. To clarify on release - "Limited release" would mean only distributing certain people - like only at conventions or only to those who preordered. "General release" is when anyone can walk into a store and buy it. The 2024 PHB only goes into general release tomorrow (Sep 17). I stopped by my local hobby store yesterday after church - they confirmed that they can't sell it to me until Tuesday.

Interestingly enough, I just stopped by mine and there were several on sale. I mentioned I was surprised by that and was told that they had been on sale for "a few weeks, maybe a month now?" So they are very much out there in places.

Yep. I just noted that in Reply #239. There was a claim that "hobby stores" would get it a month early, but apparently my local store (Game Kastle in Redwood City) didn't get the deal.

It's still limited release in that not all stores are allowed to sell it. i.e. I go to Amazon, and it says "This item will be released on September 17, 2024. Pre-order now."

Quote from: blackstone on September 16, 2024, 10:08:44 AMPlaying yourself in a RPG lacks creativity and shows narcissism.

This is false.

There are alot of reasons why players sometimes play effectively themselves. Its been a thing since the start of D&D. And it was a thing in writing long long before that.

Quote from: Omega on September 17, 2024, 06:13:13 AM

Quote from: blackstone on September 16, 2024, 10:08:44 AMPlaying yourself in a RPG lacks creativity and shows narcissism.

This is false.

There are alot of reasons why players sometimes play effectively themselves. Its been a thing since the start of D&D. And it was a thing in writing long long before that.

Longevity doesn't establish correctness.  Generally speaking, self-insert characters are toxic, whether in literature or RPGs.  The fact that people have been doing it for a long time just confirms that garbage roleplaying is not a new thing... and it's not.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 17, 2024, 06:39:07 AM

Quote from: Omega on September 17, 2024, 06:13:13 AM

Quote from: blackstone on September 16, 2024, 10:08:44 AMPlaying yourself in a RPG lacks creativity and shows narcissism.

This is false.

There are alot of reasons why players sometimes play effectively themselves. Its been a thing since the start of D&D. And it was a thing in writing long long before that.

Longevity doesn't establish correctness.  Generally speaking, self-insert characters are toxic, whether in literature or RPGs.  The fact that people have been doing it for a long time just confirms that garbage roleplaying is not a new thing... and it's not.

Coversely, survival horror campaigns (zombies, nuclear holocaust, alien invasion, etc.) where everyone plays themselves and your starting gear is whatever you have in your pockets/car are honestly way more fun than playing an anonymous starter character (it can also be hilarious).

Longevity may not establish correctness, but it does suggest it, particularly given the absence of evidence beyond your statements (I went looking and there's zip, squat and zilch to back your claims).

 You know what does show up as narcissistic behavior? Gaslighting people with claims that what they like to do is badwrongfun in order to get them to do what the narcissist wants.

Quote from: Omega on September 17, 2024, 06:13:13 AM

Quote from: blackstone on September 16, 2024, 10:08:44 AMPlaying yourself in a RPG lacks creativity and shows narcissism.

This is false.

There are alot of reasons why players sometimes play effectively themselves. Its been a thing since the start of D&D. And it was a thing in writing long long before that.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 17, 2024, 06:39:07 AM

Quote from: Omega on September 17, 2024, 06:13:13 AM

Quote from: blackstone on September 16, 2024, 10:08:44 AMPlaying yourself in a RPG lacks creativity and shows narcissism.

This is false.

There are alot of reasons why players sometimes play effectively themselves. Its been a thing since the start of D&D. And it was a thing in writing long long before that.

Longevity doesn't establish correctness.  Generally speaking, self-insert characters are toxic, whether in literature or RPGs.  The fact that people have been doing it for a long time just confirms that garbage roleplaying is not a new thing... and it's not.

I agree with Omega here. I have no issue with self insert characters in RPGs. If someone basically wants to play themselves, that is fine. Now if they are doing that in a way that disrupts the feel of the setting or table, that is a different story. And it works in literature sometimes as well. In Divine Comedy, the narrator is Dante describing his experiencing passing through hell, purgatory and heaven. In a case like that it actually works better. And granted that is less self insert and more his literal self being the main character, but there are writers who have self insert characters (HP Lovecraft does it all the time), and it can work for certain stories.   

If a player wishes to play as themselves it is their decision and I don't really care. Insisting that the campaign  world mimic modern society is a different matter and that will not be happening unless the game being run takes place in current time on Earth where such a world would be entirely fitting.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 17, 2024, 09:03:44 AMIf a player wishes to play as themselves it is their decision and I don't really care. Insisting that the campaign  world mimic modern society is a different matter and that will not be happening unless the game being run takes place in current time on Earth where such a world would be entirely fitting.

I would agree these are distinct things. I find there is a threshold for how much anachronism I can take in a campaign. The stuff I see coming out of WOTC these days isn't what I am looking for when it comes to that (it seems to be about installing comfort in the players). In principle I am not opposed to a fantasy setting that is being used with more modern characters, sensibilities, etc (for example if a GM ran a campaign that was basically Seinfeld in a fantasy world, the idea of that doesn't bother me). I am fine with anachronisms depending on how they are executed. What troubles me is it isn't what I want from default D&D (that modern anachronistic is a very specific style that might work in certain campaigns or in the hands of certain GMs). But the other thing is the anachronisms are wrapped in a moral language where it isn't just being framed as being about taste and preference but about how welcoming the campaign is to people. And that is how these discussions also tend to play out on social media (i.e. you aren't just seen as finding taco bell too silly for the PHB, it is seen as racism or dislike of other cultures, which I think misses what most people are trying to say about this stuff). I just never assumed a game had to have things in it that reflected my background in order for me to feel more welcome in it. I grew up on Pasta. I think there is spaghetti in the image in question (it is a little unclear). That doesn't really work for me in the image, especially when everything in it seems like it was just taken from a modern mall foodcourt (which I  hate to harp on but that is exactly what the spread of food looks like). And I also don't assume a person objecting to a crunchy taco, sushi or fast food hamburgers in D&D art is doing so because they dislike the cultures the food originates from.

The modern coffee shop and food court anaologies might be new, but I recall many games from the 1980s on where the D&D taverns resembled the setting of the sitcom Cheers far more than they did something authentically medieval European...and nobody really seemed to mind.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2024, 03:31:13 PM"It's not happening"
"It's happening but there's no connection"
"It's happening but why do you care?"
"Why are you yelling at the clouds?"
"It's happening and it's a good thing"

Rinse and repeat.

Stop engaging with disingenuous twats

Yeah, I hear ya.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 17, 2024, 10:49:25 AMThe modern coffee shop and food court anaologies might be new, but I recall many games from the 1980s on where the D&D taverns resembled the setting of the sitcom Cheers far more than they did something authentically medieval European...and nobody really seemed to mind.

I am not super into historical realism in my campaigns. I do that sort of thing once in a while, but with D&D I expect a fair number of anachronisms. I wouldn't say I saw most of the art for taverns in the 80s as "Cheers" but I do think they were not terribly accurate in most cases to real medieval inns. They tended to look like depictions in movies and books, where our ideas of of inns and taverns were being projected back (looked a bit like the Bakshi Prancing Pony). However I think there is an important difference here: unless it was done as a joke or it was a whimsical setting, you didn't expect to see Norm or Cliff Craven in the image. The anachronisms weren't there because people were intentionally inserting them in most cases, they were just using the established media short hand in movies, video games, art and books for 'medieval tavern'. The modern coffee shop and food court looks like instead of using that kind of short hand to point to the past, maybe with gaps filled in with some anachronisms, they are very much intentionally pointing to the present. I mean that table has what looks like McDonald's cheeseburgers and an umbrella in mixed drink. There isn't anything inherently wrong with throwing in these kinds of anachronism. I am not against designers and GMs making the campaigns they want and using whatever tone fits them. But if I am being honest, it looks pretty silly, even corporate and off-putting, to me for a dominant aesthetic in D&D core books or supplements. If it were intenionally just being silly, like a vending machine in a dungeon, I would probably have a different reaction. Still I do prefer my PHBs and DMGs not to have the sillier sort of art in them in general (maybe that is more me coming into the hobby in 1986 and starting to GM when the 2E books came out in 89).

I have to wonder if the screams about ignoring the woke (for whatever BS "reason") have anything to do with the tides turning and corporations starting to reject and fire the woke...

Recent entries: Pixar, GenCon, lot's of brands on non-entertainment products...

I bet in a year or two tops we'll see some RPG publishers start making noises in this regard too. Especially now that Pixar (Disney) has started turning away from propaganda and embracing profit.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 17, 2024, 02:25:44 PMI have to wonder if the screams about ignoring the woke (for whatever BS "reason") have anything to do with the tides turning and corporations starting to reject and fire the woke...

Recent entries: Pixar, GenCon, lot's of brands on non-entertainment products...

I bet in a year or two tops we'll see some RPG publishers start making noises in this regard too. Especially now that Pixar (Disney) has started turning away from propaganda and embracing profit.

Its amazing how quickly the woke ideology is dropped like a bad habit once the investment funds bankrolling it have dried up and it has to be sustained with corporate earnings (or the lack thereof). Its easy to virtue signal if you are flush with cash.