Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AM
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

The Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions.

Sorry Crom won't allow it.

Greetings!

Interesting. I dealt with this conundrum, of sorts, years ago for my campaign world. Even in more recent discussions about this kind of dynamic, my friend reminded me that yeah, embracing all the magic, all the rules, and using logic and merely making a few reasonable assumptions of geopolitics, practically guarantees that the game world will sooner or later be transformed into an almost uber-modern high-magic gonzo world.

I also readily admit that many of those dynamics and developments are sexy and exciting.

However, you can rapidly kiss goodbye any kind historically-based, quasi-medieval world setting. It just will no longer exist, rapidly transformed into the uber-magical gonzo world.

So, I simply make a few hard campaign assumptions, whether such are how magic works, supernatural interference, whatever, to keep things in the campaign under control. admittedly, some of those assumptions, when examined too closely under the hood can seem more thin in logic or assumed reality, but thankfully, my players don't do that. It's mostly stuff that remains in my head and in my world notes. It must remain that way, though, firmly under control, or the medieval world would simply go to shit and you would have an uber magical gonzo world. I don't want that, so, I keep it controlled.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sounds like the Eberron setting.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 20, 2022, 04:00:56 PM

Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:35:50 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.

why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.

Why?

Because you have players who try to exploit the rules to create nonsense situations?

Put on your big DM pants and tell them 'no, you're not doing that'.

If you read Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or most other popular authors you'll see that some pretty crazy shit is happening in the plot. But that doesn't mean that crazy shit is commonly occurring. In most cases these things are actually extremely rare, and often quite fantastical to your average joe. The reason why hose things are in the rules is because you want to play a game in which fantastic shit happens to unusual characters, not because those things happen to everyone.

Double post

Quote from: Trond on December 21, 2022, 09:31:20 AM
If you read Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or most other popular authors you'll see that some pretty crazy shit is happening in the plot. But that doesn't mean that crazy shit is commonly occurring. In most cases these things are actually extremely rare, and often quite fantastical to your average joe. The reason why hose things are in the rules is because you want to play a game in which fantastic shit happens to unusual characters, not because those things happen to everyone.

A key problem here is that the RPG rules used to define how PCs use magic are also the only description about how magic works in the fictional world. In D&D and many other games, wizards and clerics and other classes are defined as being features of the world. In modules and sourcebooks, there will often be NPC spellcasters similar to PCs. Even a small town will have at least one or two, and cities will have many.

That's a problem for world-building. I don't agree with a bunch of stuff in the Tippyverse document, but some of it does match my view of logical consequences. In general, RPG magic is designed to be ideal for small groups to sneak into the evil duke's castle and take him down. It's not so useful for the duke to enforce his rule. This means that the conditions for the duke's rule to arise in the first place are less likely.

As for how to avoid it, two strategies are (a) make spellcasters more rare, (b) have setting-specific gods / spirits / other powers that influence things away from the tendencies, like keeping rulers in power.

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2022, 01:59:10 AM

Quote from: Trond on December 21, 2022, 09:31:20 AM
If you read Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or most other popular authors you'll see that some pretty crazy shit is happening in the plot. But that doesn't mean that crazy shit is commonly occurring. In most cases these things are actually extremely rare, and often quite fantastical to your average joe. The reason why hose things are in the rules is because you want to play a game in which fantastic shit happens to unusual characters, not because those things happen to everyone.

A key problem here is that the RPG rules used to define how PCs use magic are also the only description about how magic works in the fictional world. In D&D and many other games, wizards and clerics and other classes are defined as being features of the world. In modules and sourcebooks, there will often be NPC spellcasters similar to PCs. Even a small town will have at least one or two, and cities will have many.

That's a problem for world-building. I don't agree with a bunch of stuff in the Tippyverse document, but some of it does match my view of logical consequences. In general, RPG magic is designed to be ideal for small groups to sneak into the evil duke's castle and take him down. It's not so useful for the duke to enforce his rule. This means that the conditions for the duke's rule to arise in the first place are less likely.

As for how to avoid it, two strategies are (a) make spellcasters more rare, (b) have setting-specific gods / spirits / other powers that influence things away from the tendencies, like keeping rulers in power.

there's a third way: making a book that details how magic ACTUALLY works

QuoteIn DND, how do you avoid something like the Tippyverse?

I don't play with assholes who try to take a steaming shit on the table while we're playing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 22, 2022, 06:15:20 AM

QuoteIn DND, how do you avoid something like the Tippyverse?

I don't play with assholes who try to take a steaming shit on the table while we're playing.

This. For the love of Gygax, this.

Regarding magic, I've commented on this before: inserting a little chaos into your magical system isn't bad, but if it's too unreliable, players won't use it. You have to strike a balance between 'this always happens' and 'lol roll on chart'.