Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.

why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.

IMHO, part of the fun of RPGs is watching players figure out how to exploit the universe they're in for fun and for profit. I don't think that the D&D exploitation loopholes are particularly interesting, as the ones I remember in my groups mostly revolved around making ungodly amounts of money or resurrection or doing something with the D&D pantheon, which I have never been a fan of.

I think my favorite example of this came from a Paranoia campaign I was in where one of my fellow players wanted to tell the Computer a liar's paradox. Of course, we never made it that far because...Paranoia. In retrospect it wasn't that original, but the thought is so amusing you can't help it.

My point is that unless you are going for a horror game feel, it's perfectly fine for your world to have massive exploitation weaknesses which the players push and force major changes. Changing the world is what makes RPGs fun.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AM
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

The Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions. Although it was for 3.5e DND, DND magic hasn't changed by much since then, so some of the assumptions still hold true (the 5e equivalent is https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/eyhlgn/the_wibblyverse_a_setting_where_the_5e_rules_as/) Now that I say this: how do you avoid your world from ending up like the Tippyverse? Do you

1. Change the rules of DND themselves directly (make magic more restricted)?
2. Change the expression of DND's rules (make DND's rules not the actual representation of a fictional reality)

There is a Gross Conceptual Error in the comparison between the 3.5e and 5e rules. A Teleportation Circle costs gold and XP from a high level spellcaster to create in 3.5e while it doesn't in 5e. There are also different results from casting Teleportation Circle in 3.5e and 5e.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AMThe Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions.

...Now that I say this: how do you avoid your world from ending up like the Tippyverse?

Well, one popular trope (I'm using it myself in a series I'm working on, and David Weber used it in his "Bahzell Bahnakson" books) is to assume that, in fact, the world did already turn into something like the Tippyverse at some point in the past, with advanced and widely available magic replicating the effects of superscience technology. And then, as all Golden Age empires tend to do, it fell, most likely in a magically devastating civil war, and the magic and magic items PCs are now working to rediscover and reattain are the ruins of a much more advanced society. That's where all the magic-rich tombs and wacky wizard-spawn monsters come from.

In theory, your PCs could be the people who help kick off the Arcane Restoration by rediscovering and re-implementing things like the Teleportation Circle, but progress from their actions to a complete socioeconomic restructuring of the world is likely to take at least a hundred years or so -- a lot longer than any given campaign is likely to last.

This really is an example of what frequently happens in world-building--where some magic/technology can be introduced as a cool idea, but often turns out to just be a contrivance.

A great example of this is the Transporter in Star Trek.  It was introduced because the Shuttlecraft set wasn't ready (or something like that if I remember correctly).  But they had to figure out how to break it in many episodes because it was too convenient and would render the conflict in the story void.  Or a more recent example, in "Multiverse of Madness" Wanda's magic tricks seemed to be completely random and OP, and the audience was thinking "why didn't she do this trick before and shortcut 90% of the story?"

Bottom line is that it's pretty hard to think of all of the implications of a tech or magical system when you introduce it.  When pushed to the limits (especially by min/maxers and rules lawyers), most systems have some kinds of weaknesses that can be exploited.  (Computer games are even more obvious like this...here's looking at you, Elder Scrolls franchise.)

In the end, I think leaving God or the gods as the ultimate check on abuse of a system is necessary--e.g., you try to exploit something, and you will be punished.  Severely and without mercy, and your character will be tortured for all eternity and will be turned into an NPC that may be encountered in a piteous state chained in hell forever.

You can also lean into the trope nice and hard. Set aside the conventional medieval/Renaissance setting, and go for some kind of steampunk/Victorian era theme. Eberron's a good starting point for this line of thought.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 20, 2022, 09:10:58 AM
This really is an example of what frequently happens in world-building--where some magic/technology can be introduced as a cool idea, but often turns out to just be a contrivance.

A great example of this is the Transporter in Star Trek.  It was introduced because the Shuttlecraft set wasn't ready (or something like that if I remember correctly).  But they had to figure out how to break it in many episodes because it was too convenient and would render the conflict in the story void.  Or a more recent example, in "Multiverse of Madness" Wanda's magic tricks seemed to be completely random and OP, and the audience was thinking "why didn't she do this trick before and shortcut 90% of the story?"

Bottom line is that it's pretty hard to think of all of the implications of a tech or magical system when you introduce it.  When pushed to the limits (especially by min/maxers and rules lawyers), most systems have some kinds of weaknesses that can be exploited.  (Computer games are even more obvious like this...here's looking at you, Elder Scrolls franchise.)

In the end, I think leaving God or the gods as the ultimate check on abuse of a system is necessary--e.g., you try to exploit something, and you will be punished.  Severely and without mercy, and your character will be tortured for all eternity and will be turned into an NPC that may be encountered in a piteous state chained in hell forever.

Short of not introducing it in the first place, the easiest way to address this to have countermeasures and arms races. Wanda too powerful? Make the heroes powerful enough to counter her, or throw in an antimagic substance, or whatever. It doesn't really matter how powerful a character is so long as the challenges are up the same standard.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 20, 2022, 09:14:14 AM
You can also lean into the trope nice and hard. Set aside the conventional medieval/Renaissance setting, and go for some kind of steampunk/Victorian era theme. Eberron's a good starting point for this line of thought.

Sure, you can, but isn't that kind of exactly what we're talking about avoiding?

Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 20, 2022, 09:10:58 AM(Computer games are even more obvious like this...here's looking at you, Elder Scrolls franchise.)

> Start enchanting a magic item
> Fill the item with enchantments right up to the point where you can't put any more on it
> Remove one enchantment, so that you have one open slot
> Bind a soul to the item, filling up the final slot with the bonus from the bound soul, but not leaving enough space on the item for the curse that comes with the bound soul
> Thanks, Daggerfall!

> Create a new character
> Choose "high elf", which is immune to paralysis
> Choose "critical weakness: paralysis" for free building points
> Thanks, Daggerfall!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 20, 2022, 09:38:23 AM
Short of not introducing it in the first place, the easiest way to address this to have countermeasures and arms races. Wanda too powerful? Make the heroes powerful enough to counter her, or throw in an antimagic substance, or whatever. It doesn't really matter how powerful a character is so long as the challenges are up the same standard.

The thing is with the Cluster F*** that's the current phase of the MCU, we've already established how OP Captain Marvel is...and she's killed by what...Wanda making a statue fall on her?  After it was established that Captain Marvel could literally fly straight through a gigantic starship (granted, she was an Alternative Universe version of her, but her powers supposedly came from the same source)?

With RPGs, there's less excuse for this kind of oversight with proper playtesting...and with D&D with nearly 50 years of history as the most-played RPG, one would think that most exploits would either be eliminated in a new version, or the proper counter-measures (as you mention) are put into place.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 20, 2022, 10:43:45 AM

With RPGs, there's less excuse for this kind of oversight with proper playtesting...and with D&D with nearly 50 years of history as the most-played RPG, one would think that most exploits would either be eliminated in a new version, or the proper counter-measures (as you mention) are put into place.

That's how you end up with bloat and bad to worse Sage Advice.  And rules descriptions that suck all the life out of the thing.  Because the real problem with that approach is you spend all your time putting in fixes to fixes to fixes, instead of doing new content.  And every time you do manage to do new content, it invalidates more and more of your "fixes".  So the net effect is it becomes impossible to get really creative in a setting without doing a reset.  Sound familiar?

Much better to get off that train periodically and start fresh.  Which is why, for example, the best Forgotten Realms game is one you do with the original books and build from there, ignoring everything official that came after.  And almost is good is using the first FR hardback. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 20, 2022, 11:12:41 AM
That's how you end up with bloat and bad to worse Sage Advice.  And rules descriptions that suck all the life out of the thing.  Because the real problem with that approach is you spend all your time putting in fixes to fixes to fixes, instead of doing new content.  And every time you do manage to do new content, it invalidates more and more of your "fixes".  So the net effect is it becomes impossible to get really creative in a setting without doing a reset.  Sound familiar?

Much better to get off that train periodically and start fresh.  Which is why, for example, the best Forgotten Realms game is one you do with the original books and build from there, ignoring everything official that came after.  And almost is good is using the first FR hardback.

I guess that "get off the train periodically" is how I see new editions should work (not that they necessarily do).  A new edition should be a chance to say "this mechanic really doesn't make sense and is exploitable...trash it?"  But of course, sometimes legacy issues persist, and to really think "out of the box" sometimes a whole rewrite is more appropriate.

The irony is, of course, that OSR manages to work, despite going back to the 40-50 year old source.  Perhaps the problem really is more how players who like to find and use exploits, and not so much the RAW.  Sometimes you have to say "Yeah, this is possible...but it won't be fun to use this exploit."  It's like finding the ResPot exploit in Skyrim...fun to make ridiculously OP weapons that kill a Legendary Dragon in one blow.  Fun for about five minutes, then you ignore the exploit because it makes the game dull.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.

why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.

Why?

Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:35:50 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.

why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.

Why?

Because you have players who try to exploit the rules to create nonsense situations? Because you have a need for your world to be fully resolved and consistent? Because it annoys you when others create "what if" scenarios where the world is pushed to its logical limits? That's my understanding anyway. I'm perfectly happy with inconsistency and holes in history and the people I game with buy in to the world, flaws and all, so I don't see this problem. Still sort of interesting to read about it though.

Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:35:50 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.

why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.

Why?

1. It's fun
2. It sets down guidelines and limitations for my world
3. I am very wordy