https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy
The Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions. Although it was for 3.5e DND, DND magic hasn't changed by much since then, so some of the assumptions still hold true (the 5e equivalent is https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/eyhlgn/the_wibblyverse_a_setting_where_the_5e_rules_as/) Now that I say this: how do you avoid your world from ending up like the Tippyverse? Do you
1. Change the rules of DND themselves directly (make magic more restricted)?
2. Change the expression of DND's rules (make DND's rules not the actual representation of a fictional reality)
How to avoid it?
Easy.
By having at least two functioning brain cells to rub together and realize this person is a complete moron along with the legion of complete morons who try to "end" all settings with claims like "werewolf plague!" "Specter plague!" "Dwagons can fwy!" and on and on ad fucking nausium absolutium.
Morons.
Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 03:16:06 AM
How to avoid it?
Easy.
By having at least two functioning brain cells to rub together and realize this person is a complete moron along with the legion of complete morons who try to "end" all settings with claims like "werewolf plague!" "Specter plague!" "Dwagons can fwy!" and on and on ad fucking nausium absolutium.
Morons.
Omega is correct; the white-board theory crafting shits are to be ridiculed and ignored if you cannot physically disappear them into a stew.
Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 03:16:06 AM
How to avoid it?
Easy.
By having at least two functioning brain cells to rub together and realize this person is a complete moron along with the legion of complete morons who try to "end" all settings with claims like "werewolf plague!" "Specter plague!" "Dwagons can fwy!" and on and on ad fucking nausium absolutium.
Morons.
explain, I'm a bit new here so i don't really get what you're referring to. I'll try to tackle what you said, though.
"werewolf plague" are they implying that a werewolf plague would have spread to every single person on earth?
"specter plague" i don't see how this is different from 'werewolf plague'
'dragons can fly' are they implying the existence of flying gigantic carnivorous nearly indestructible animals would change how human history and society would develop? i think it would.
the point of the tippyverse is to examine if a DND world had the same way the real world does- that is, instead of author fiat propping up worlds that shouldn't work the way they do, you take each feature, examine how they would interact with each other, and try to find where real life logic leads you.
Just because these spells are available, doesn't mean the demographics pan it out. In real life, we have enough food to feed the entire world, but there's still famine. Why?
How many clerics are there to even cast these spells? And are they not casting it for other things, like their own interests or their churches?
A D&D society works because it's fictional and/or because the DM says it does.
Now, I want to just sit down and roll some dice. Let's not over analyze something that was written as a game first and, well, nothing else comes to mind as a second point. It is a game for adventure and fun, not a sociology study model.
Or if that explanation doesn't do it for you, then there is more going on than the rule books are covering. A lot more.
Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 03:16:06 AM
How to avoid it?
Easy.
By having at least two functioning brain cells to rub together and realize this person is a complete moron along with the legion of complete morons who try to "end" all settings with claims like "werewolf plague!" "Specter plague!" "Dwagons can fwy!" and on and on ad fucking nausium absolutium.
Morons.
The writer is not a moron, but he's not brilliant either. He pointed out an obvious exploit, in regards to using a Simulacrum to cast a Wish spell...in order to avoid suffering the negative side effects of casting Wish. That's just common sense.
Anyway, it doesn't matter....because 5e is a very poorly written game. The writers are complete brainlets, who made no attempt at dealing with unusual cases in implementing game mechanics, hence the "moron" writer came up with the idea of a spellcaster using a Mirage Arcane spell to seemingly change the terrain in an area up to 1 mile square into lava. To be fair, he didn't explain how the illusory lava from this spell would kill a target, so his assessment that he could use the spell to turn a city's foundation into an illusory lava lake, for the purpose of "killing millions" is just plain WRONG. He made a mistake. The 5e version of the Mirage Arcane spell creates a convincing illusion, but it doesn't actually warp reality. What the spell actually does is quite vague, because it's poorly written, while providing very limited guidelines for crafting illusions. This is no surprise. 5e is wet dog shit.
That said, I don't have a problem with people taking things to their logical conclusions, and I don't call people "morons" for doing it. I just wouldn't personally use 5e for a "Tippyverse" campaign, because it's such a horribly bad game system. Personally, I'd use either AD&D or D&D 3.x, and then try to see what happens.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 03:34:27 AM
"werewolf plague" are they implying that a werewolf plague would have spread to every single person on earth?
"specter plague" i don't see how this is different from 'werewolf plague'
'dragons can fly' are they implying the existence of flying gigantic carnivorous nearly indestructible animals would change how human history and society would develop? i think it would.
the point of the tippyverse is to examine if a DND world had the same way the real world does- that is, instead of author fiat propping up worlds that shouldn't work the way they do, you take each feature, examine how they would interact with each other, and try to find where real life logic leads you.
tends to be built on modern vidya game derived assumptions and perceptions of rule interaction and outcome as a general thing, every casting of x does exactly y, attempting to apply magic as if it were science rather than art and spirituality...ten seconds later the schlump trying to pull this shit on you is complaining he cannot reskin his magic missile to be flaming shang t'sung skulls, waffling between rote science based magical application and free-form art as it suits them.
there is a certain mindset regarding rule application i first saw or noticed heavily among the the magic the gathering players, beginning (as far as i noticed) in 3e these types would pop up and give these wild theory craft sermons/whiteboard scenarios which relied upon a strict reading and interpretation the way the print on a magic card is treated; ie the presence of a colon or semi colon having a huge disparate outcome based on this strict adherence and way of reading it...this is just that boiled slow and with extra salt.
"dude you can totally raise the dead with baptism as part of the drowning rules, if you disagree you are not playing by the rules..."
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on December 19, 2022, 04:33:29 AM
Quote from: Omega on December 19, 2022, 03:16:06 AM
How to avoid it?
Easy.
By having at least two functioning brain cells to rub together and realize this person is a complete moron along with the legion of complete morons who try to "end" all settings with claims like "werewolf plague!" "Specter plague!" "Dwagons can fwy!" and on and on ad fucking nausium absolutium.
Morons.
The writer is not a moron, but he's not brilliant either. He pointed out an obvious exploit, in regards to using a Simulacrum to cast a Wish spell...in order to avoid suffering the negative side effects of casting Wish. That's just common sense.
Anyway, it doesn't matter....because 5e is a very poorly written game. The writers are complete brainlets, who made no attempt at dealing with unusual cases in implementing game mechanics, hence the "moron" writer came up with the idea of a spellcaster using a Mirage Arcane spell to seemingly change the terrain in an area up to 1 mile square into lava. To be fair, he didn't explain how the illusory lava from this spell would kill a target, so his assessment that he could use the spell to turn a city's foundation into an illusory lava lake, for the purpose of "killing millions" is just plain WRONG. He made a mistake. The 5e version of the Mirage Arcane spell creates a convincing illusion, but it doesn't actually warp reality. What the spell actually does is quite vague, because it's poorly written, while providing very limited guidelines for crafting illusions. This is no surprise. 5e is wet dog shit.
That said, I don't have a problem with people taking things to their logical conclusions, and I don't call people "morons" for doing it. I just wouldn't personally use 5e for a "Tippyverse" campaign, because it's such a horribly bad game system. Personally, I'd use either AD&D or D&D 3.x, and then try to see what happens.
Mirage Arcane can indeed harm: https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/988838034962436098?lang=en
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AM
2. Change the expression of DND's rules (make DND's rules not the actual representation of a fictional reality)
I don't treat the rules as world physics. The rules are there to aid player interaction with the world. I often use various rules sets in the same world - eg 1e AD&D and 5e D&D in my Wilderlands & my Grey Box Forgotten Realms; 5e D&D and Mini Six in my Primeval Thule. The world comes first.
I don't know what you mean by
Change the expression of DND's rules though. The rules don't claim to be the physics of the world in any edition I know of; maybe 3e comes closest.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 19, 2022, 05:50:17 AM
Mirage Arcane can indeed harm: https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/988838034962436098?lang=en
I notice that some of the Twitter commenters point out that Crawford is just making shit up, as usual, without reference to the spell wording.
It's more that it is worded vaguely enough to allow that or not at all.
The spell says the terrain takes on the look, shape, and feel of what you desire, to the point it can impede your movement through it. If it can do that, wouldn't that mean it would reflect the heat of lava, for example?
baking your potatoes with illusory lava...
By pointing out that it's a game, not a universe simulator?
Sure, pointing out how the rules can be exploited can be fun, but that's not really an indication that the Tippyverse is more realistic than Faerun. It's just an indication that the magic system falls apart at higher levels.
They even discuss that in the Tippyverse thread.
The rules exist to help the GM express the setting consistently. That's all they do. The GM can ignore them, change them, house rule them, or anything else as needed to express the setting. Full stop.
Anyone that doesn't understand that, doesn't understand how traditional table-top RPGs work. Or is being a disingenuous twit.
Quote from: S'mon on December 19, 2022, 06:09:40 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 19, 2022, 05:50:17 AM
Mirage Arcane can indeed harm: https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/988838034962436098?lang=en
I notice that some of the Twitter commenters point out that Crawford is just making shit up, as usual, without reference to the spell wording.
Crawford is a total moron. How he wormed his way to the top of D&D design remains a mystery.
So I think the idea that teleportation specifically would break the universe is wrong. In 3.5, Teleport is a 5th level spell, so you need a 9th level wizard to cast it, and it only moves a handful of people at best. There aren't supposed to be that many high-level casters in the world, even in 3.5, so the idea that whole armies would teleport onto their targets doesn't fly to me. He also assumes that teleportation would be cheap. If I was a wizard, and I knew that teleporting a merchant and his goods across country was going to save him a fortune in travel costs, I'd charge an amount not much cheaper than those assumed travel costs. Hell, I might still charge more, on the grounds that teleportation is also safer and faster than travelling. I also don't buy the premise that it would lead to the development of megacities in a medieval world. In real history people moved into cities more for economic opportunities than for defense, and if readily available magic did anything to the general world, it would crash the economy by invalidating much of the workforce.
looking at it more generally. There's two issues I think are suggested by this post:
One is the question of what the level-range of NPCs in the world is. The old-school attitude on this seems to be that the vast majority of NPCs are 0-level and adventurers are extremely rare. An elite soldier might be the equivalent of a 3rd or 4th level fighter, and even a small city might only have a handful of NPCs over 5th level in it. The advantage of this is that it makes sense for a more historically authentic setting, but the disadvantage is that it allows mid-to-high level PCs to run roughshod over the setting. The more new-school method is to have a world where adventurers or classed NPCs are common. A squad of city guards might be 4th level fighters and will probably have a wizard with them. There might be whole organizations devoted to managing and regulating adventurers as a profession. This is a logical response to the existence of PCs, but it can get equally silly. Players are going to ask why they're the ones saving everybody's bacon when the local shopkeeper is a 12th-level wizard. It also leads to the kind of questions that posts like Tippy's are trying to address. Personally I use a hybrid approach. There's a fair few ranked characters scattered around my world, but the majority of them are fighters, barbarians, etc., and they're rarely above 6th or 7th level. (Of course it helps that I'm running a game where a 4th level fighter is still a credible threat to an 8th level sorcerer.)
The other issue is just how much the mere existence of magic should change the setting. As much as people want to scoff at this, I do think it's a detriment to the game if the way the setting works doesn't make sense. That said, it can be a bit of a trap to go down that path of taking the RAW to it's logical conclusions. You can easily wind up with a setting that's either so weird that players don't know how to act in it, or so advanced there's no more room for adventure. Personally, I think those kind of questions should be solved with internal lore reasons. Wizards don't rule the world because they're too arrogant and competitive to cooperate with each other. Dragons don't destroy entire regions because they sleep for decades at a time. Clerics don't get jobs in restaurants casting "create food and water" because that would be an insult to the power of their god.
My system's Rule 0 is "While we tried, we can't account for every possible rules mechanic interaction. When the rules appear to lead to nonsensical results, the GM is to rule as they think the rules are intended, not as they're written."
When RAW is "Use RAI" it shuts down most of the rules lawyers and any sort Tippyverse nonsense they intend to exploit.
The linked posts seem like they are following the written setting to some "logical" conclusion for fun.
Does this actually happen in game?
I couldn't read anymore of the original thread. I stopped where I got the premise was that the rules are basally the laws of nature of the Tippyverse.
I mean, I guess as a generality, the rules are.
I just can get over the fact that maybe it's a bit...much.
It's a nice thought exercise, but as a game world?
This is a good thread and I'm glad you even linked to the original discussions. Many objections are brought up in those threads, and I never thought anyone really defended the main point against them.
There are some serious ramifications of high level magic and mid level magic that are not properly handled in most settings. However, I don't think the resultant worlds are exactly as alien as these thought experiments lead us to believe.
I'm going to go a different tack than many of the responses here, and not simply assume that the "DM defines the world and he doesn't define it that way". That's of course true, but in my judgment it misses the entire point of the thought experiment, which is, "do these rules yield a normal world by themselves, or is this something a DM must address to some degree to get a useful campaign world?"
Anyway-
In OSR D&D, many of the spells simply are written such that they are not reliable enough to describe a really broken world with. Overall, AD&D games do have more broken high level things than any later versions, but it was not in practice a concern as the world builder would simply use creative interpretation even if they didn't want to make rulings, bannings, or house rules (all of which are fine).
3.0 introduced a writing style of clear black and white, with spells defined to much greater degrees. High level spells still had plenty of broken conditions out of the box. Initially this wasn't an issue, as everyone walked into 3.0 DMing it as they had 2.5 or prior- but that didn't last long, as 3.0 and 3.5 were complete systems, and they had different implications.
At which point we enter the tippyverse and similar thought experiments. Basically, "describe a world where these things are real, and also that world should be worth playing in" is somewhat challenging using the black letter spells. You can see the concern that everyone will be subject to mental domination carried out by some exponential process in the original thread, or similar.
The first and easiest way to way to solve the issue of a powerful wizard just literally wrecking everything or creating some exponential process that wipes out worlds, universes, or multiverses, is to simply have some gods stop it. This is not deus ex machina, the gods literally are supposed to come out and do this- this is in many ways their jobs, and their existence and motivations practically guarantee that they will generally step in to prevent most of the awful stuff. There's other ways as well, but that's honestly a good enough reason to block out all the absurdly dystopian results- the worlds in question are already under the influence of powerful alien presences who aren't interested in the world becoming some monomaniacal statue.
So moving on past that, we get to "do the high level spells break the normal assumptions of the game". As written, they do to some degree. Teleportation, which is pretty strictly defined to be reasonable for players, is generally too powerful without some mitigating factors that are not present in the rulebook. High level spells have exploits that grant too many resources. Infinite energy is possible if you directly interpret many magical items, etc.
These are all problems that a DM can and should consider. If you set up a teleportation circle, there's probably some limit as to how many people can fit into it. Transdimensional spaces probably shrink and eventually stop working if heavily abused. If you're a powerful wizard, you probably need to go and maintain those things every once in awhile- and that would make these things not nearly as abusive. Basically, as DM you should consider sanding off the sharp edges of spells with serious economic exploits, even if you don't write it into some houserules you'll be able to describe needing to maintain these things with some time and effort around the time the PCs interact with such spell effects. That way an enterprising PC can still make some side cash if they come up with this kind of thing, while you are ready with answers as to why every wizard doesn't do this, or why the world wasn't always like this if there's a few hundred 11th level wizards at a time.
The broken spells, on the other hand, need more direct addressing. 5ed's Wish is abusive in entirely different directions than prior versions were, as the cost to casting it has been removed (only the creative wishes have a cost, a chance to lose the casting entirely). Without "age 5 years" or "pay XP" or even "pay more gold than the spell could make" as a limiter (as earlier versions had), you have players using Wish to ignore restrictions on lower level spells such as simulacrum. This makes simulacrum in 5ed about as abusive as clone could be in prior versions, and you really only have two options.
1- You nerf these spells.
2- Casting is so rare that no one has done these abuses before- if the PCs hit this level, they are probably in a group of 3-4 casters of that power level alive at that time, and the others have reasons not to do this.
Anything besides these two is pretty heavy handed, narratively. If you go with the second case, the PCs will probably run into pushback should their exponential activities be discovered, and if not, well, they'll probably end up controlling as much of your world as they want. This can be ok, and the world they may help you create may look entirely unlike a world where reasonably equal access to even high level magic is possible.
The final and much more minor point is that building castles isn't very interesting if half your potential invaders can fly, and some versions even feature a single castle turning huge sections of walls into mud with a few words. The structure of a medieval style city would be pretty different with even occasional access to 3-5th level spells. Later versions try address this (to some success), but generally assuming that castle builders are aware of these spells and have some kind of protection (that most experts would know about) is reasonable as well.
Or you can just throw up your hands, say "fuck it!", do away with all of the dumbfuckery of later rules, and go to a simpler ruleset.
You can also deal with a lot of by sheer rarity.
My setting presumes that 1st level PC's are basically 1-in-10,000 (the upper 1% of the 1%) exceptions from the norm. In a mighty metropolis of 50,000 people you might have 5 first level PCs.
6th level PC's are one-in-a-million (the upper 1% of PC-tier individuals)... In a kingdom of five million, you might find 5 people of this caliber.
11th level PC's are once-in-generation type individuals. There might be five on the whole planet right now.
15th level PC's are once-in-a-millennia figures. You would count yourself blessed to live at the same time as such champions because generations pass between ones like this turning up.
Sure... when literal Merlin shows up you have one person on the planet who can work magical shenanigans for his home kingdom... but the Tippyverse relies on a much greater logarithmic scale for the existence of high level casters than many settings natively will.
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 19, 2022, 12:55:03 PM
You can also deal with a lot of by sheer rarity.
My setting presumes that 1st level PC's are basically 1-in-10,000 (the upper 1% of the 1%) exceptions from the norm. In a mighty metropolis of 50,000 people you might have 5 first level PCs.
6th level PC's are one-in-a-million (the upper 1% of PC-tier individuals)... In a kingdom of five million, you might find 5 people of this caliber.
11th level PC's are once-in-generation type individuals. There might be five on the whole planet right now.
15th level PC's are once-in-a-millennia figures. You would count yourself blessed to live at the same time as such champions because generations pass between ones like this turning up.
Sure... when literal Merlin shows up you have one person on the planet who can work magical shenanigans for his home kingdom... but the Tippyverse relies on a much greater logarithmic scale for the existence of high level casters than many settings natively will.
Weren't there some official AD&D figures for this?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 19, 2022, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 19, 2022, 12:55:03 PM
You can also deal with a lot of by sheer rarity.
My setting presumes that 1st level PC's are basically 1-in-10,000 (the upper 1% of the 1%) exceptions from the norm. In a mighty metropolis of 50,000 people you might have 5 first level PCs.
6th level PC's are one-in-a-million (the upper 1% of PC-tier individuals)... In a kingdom of five million, you might find 5 people of this caliber.
11th level PC's are once-in-generation type individuals. There might be five on the whole planet right now.
15th level PC's are once-in-a-millennia figures. You would count yourself blessed to live at the same time as such champions because generations pass between ones like this turning up.
Sure... when literal Merlin shows up you have one person on the planet who can work magical shenanigans for his home kingdom... but the Tippyverse relies on a much greater logarithmic scale for the existence of high level casters than many settings natively will.
Weren't there some official AD&D figures for this?
Kind of. If you want an example of the cross section of humanity in a typical town or city in AD&D, you can use the "City/Town Encounters Matrix" on page 191 in the Dungeon Master's Guide. It contains random encounter tables, and not everyone is a zero-level nobody in it. Many of the listed encounters have NPCs with levels, and you can even possibly run into monsters during nighttime. It's not perfect, but it's useful.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 19, 2022, 12:55:03 PM
15th level PC's are once-in-a-millennia figures. You would count yourself blessed to live at the same time as such champions because generations pass between ones like this turning up.
This definitely avoids it for sure. But do note that it does mean that the players, once they have achieved levels above 12, are going to be very hard to write challenges for. Basically, if your campaigns end between levels 9 and 13 (as I believe most campaigns actually do), then this is totally feasible. If your 17th level PC squad is the only one of those for 1500 years you don't have tippyverse concerns, but you do have "the PCs and maybe the forces opposed to them are the only forces with any importance in the entire universe".
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 19, 2022, 01:23:40 PM
Weren't there some official AD&D figures for this?
I'm sure there were, and I also recall other sources (official and semi-official) giving their takes on this in later years. But the short version is: in most worlds with most rules you have enough high level casters to consider their impact, even if you don't end up with something as wild as the tippyverse, you would still expect the most egregiously disruptive economic things to happen
to some degree, and in the
other worlds and estimations neither the PCs nor the campaigns should be going much past 5th level spells ever.
Well, with the later rules, I get the angst to a certain extent. So many of those rules (especially spells and magic items) are made with the idea of "what sounds cool" instead of being done as a reaction to specific rulings to fit into a specific setting. Heck, once you go kitchen sink, you don't even have the cover of a specific setting anymore.
However, the answer to this is not to try to make the rules as physics. It doesn't really work even in games that make a concentrated, serious effort to have rules as physics where possible. And those games have a strongly implied setting, too. (All you get in that case is a good fake of that result, if you don't examine it too closely.) Worse, chasing rules as physics is a leading cause of bad rules. (If your campaign begins to show signs of implosion after 4 sessions, consider discontinuing, or see your doctor.)
Stack the problem of rules as physics on top of the problem of "use all the official rules, because waah!", and on top of GM not customizing to a setting--then yeah, you'll have problems. If you repeatedly hit your thumb with a hammer on purpose, it will hurt, too. The solution is the same in both cases: Stop being stupid.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AM
1. Change the rules of DND themselves directly (make magic more restricted)?
2. Change the expression of DND's rules (make DND's rules not the actual representation of a fictional reality)
A little it of A, a little bit of B.
I generally prefer a bit lower-fantasy vibe than stock D&D these days - more akin to 1E/2E era, or even better something like Warhammer Fantasy. So right off the top, that solves some of the problem.
And then, yes, rules are not reality. People don't actually have stats, or hitpoints, or even skills
as the game mechanics understand them*. Those are abstractions. Extrapolating outward from there, so is almost everything else. Spells in the book, for example, represent spells that PCs and those the PCs interact with have access to, if they live long enough - not necessarily what the world at large has access to.
*Yes, obviously, characters can be strong or weak, smart or stupid, they can know how to smith a sword or follow tracks, etc etc. But it's not mechanistic. Strength is the closest of anything to being able to be accurately represented by numbers, and even there it's really not, because for example, a person may be stronger in the arms and weaker in the legs than normal, or vis versa - a blacksmith, for example, might be able to express far greater strength in his arms than his arbitrary Strength 13 would suggest, but only be of average Strength 13 in his legs. Similarly, our blacksmith doesn't have "Craft(Blacksmithing) 10", he's going to have strengths and weaknesses. He might be able to produce identical results as another Craft(Blacksmithing) 10 smith, but he takes twice as long, because he's more of a perfectionist, and the other smith is better at just winging it. Or maybe he makes really good axes, and another smith makes really good swords. Things like that. Yeah, various games try to address this with things like skill focuses, or Skills & Power's "sub-attributes", but these are always just an imperfect patch. Again, extrapolate this out to reality as a whole. Numbers and rules are not meant to simulate all of reality, they're meant to provide rules with which to play a game and tell stories.
Quote from: Venka on December 19, 2022, 02:58:00 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 19, 2022, 12:55:03 PM
15th level PC's are once-in-a-millennia figures. You would count yourself blessed to live at the same time as such champions because generations pass between ones like this turning up.
This definitely avoids it for sure. But do note that it does mean that the players, once they have achieved levels above 12, are going to be very hard to write challenges for. Basically, if your campaigns end between levels 9 and 13 (as I believe most campaigns actually do), then this is totally feasible. If your 17th level PC squad is the only one of those for 1500 years you don't have tippyverse concerns, but you do have "the PCs and maybe the forces opposed to them are the only forces with any importance in the entire universe".
The system I use hardcaps at level 15 for PCs and is expected to wrap up somewhere between level 11 and 15 (you can keep playing, you just won't get any stronger other than perhaps via finding an artifact or something). Using the standard leveling model you'll hit level 6 after about 15-20 sessions, level 11 after about 75-100 more (90-120 sessions total), but level 15 will take about 200 more after that.
In my experience, 300 sessions is an incredibly long time for any campaign to run... a weekly 1-2 year (50-100 sessions) or bi-weekly 3-5 year (120-ish) campaign seem far more typical of those who don't peter out in the first half-dozen sessions.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.
why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.
IMHO, part of the fun of RPGs is watching players figure out how to exploit the universe they're in for fun and for profit. I don't think that the D&D exploitation loopholes are particularly interesting, as the ones I remember in my groups mostly revolved around making ungodly amounts of money or resurrection or doing something with the D&D pantheon, which I have never been a fan of.
I think my favorite example of this came from a Paranoia campaign I was in where one of my fellow players wanted to tell the Computer a liar's paradox. Of course, we never made it that far because...Paranoia. In retrospect it wasn't that original, but the thought is so amusing you can't help it.
My point is that unless you are going for a horror game feel, it's perfectly fine for your world to have massive exploitation weaknesses which the players push and force major changes. Changing the world is what makes RPGs fun.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AM
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy
The Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions. Although it was for 3.5e DND, DND magic hasn't changed by much since then, so some of the assumptions still hold true (the 5e equivalent is https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/eyhlgn/the_wibblyverse_a_setting_where_the_5e_rules_as/) Now that I say this: how do you avoid your world from ending up like the Tippyverse? Do you
1. Change the rules of DND themselves directly (make magic more restricted)?
2. Change the expression of DND's rules (make DND's rules not the actual representation of a fictional reality)
There is a Gross Conceptual Error in the comparison between the 3.5e and 5e rules. A Teleportation Circle costs gold and XP from a high level spellcaster to create in 3.5e while it doesn't in 5e. There are also different results from casting Teleportation Circle in 3.5e and 5e.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AMThe Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions.
...Now that I say this: how do you avoid your world from ending up like the Tippyverse?
Well, one popular trope (I'm using it myself in a series I'm working on, and David Weber used it in his "Bahzell Bahnakson" books) is to assume that, in fact, the world
did already turn into something like the Tippyverse at some point in the past, with advanced and widely available magic replicating the effects of superscience technology. And then, as all Golden Age empires tend to do, it fell, most likely in a magically devastating civil war, and the magic and magic items PCs are now working to rediscover and reattain are the ruins of a much more advanced society. That's where all the magic-rich tombs and wacky wizard-spawn monsters come from.
In theory, your PCs could be the people who help kick off the Arcane Restoration by rediscovering and re-implementing things like the Teleportation Circle, but progress from their actions to a complete socioeconomic restructuring of the world is likely to take at least a hundred years or so -- a lot longer than any given campaign is likely to last.
This really is an example of what frequently happens in world-building--where some magic/technology can be introduced as a cool idea, but often turns out to just be a contrivance.
A great example of this is the Transporter in Star Trek. It was introduced because the Shuttlecraft set wasn't ready (or something like that if I remember correctly). But they had to figure out how to break it in many episodes because it was too convenient and would render the conflict in the story void. Or a more recent example, in "Multiverse of Madness" Wanda's magic tricks seemed to be completely random and OP, and the audience was thinking "why didn't she do this trick before and shortcut 90% of the story?"
Bottom line is that it's pretty hard to think of all of the implications of a tech or magical system when you introduce it. When pushed to the limits (especially by min/maxers and rules lawyers), most systems have some kinds of weaknesses that can be exploited. (Computer games are even more obvious like this...here's looking at you, Elder Scrolls franchise.)
In the end, I think leaving God or the gods as the ultimate check on abuse of a system is necessary--e.g., you try to exploit something, and you will be punished. Severely and without mercy, and your character will be tortured for all eternity and will be turned into an NPC that may be encountered in a piteous state chained in hell forever.
You can also lean into the trope nice and hard. Set aside the conventional medieval/Renaissance setting, and go for some kind of steampunk/Victorian era theme. Eberron's a good starting point for this line of thought.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 20, 2022, 09:10:58 AM
This really is an example of what frequently happens in world-building--where some magic/technology can be introduced as a cool idea, but often turns out to just be a contrivance.
A great example of this is the Transporter in Star Trek. It was introduced because the Shuttlecraft set wasn't ready (or something like that if I remember correctly). But they had to figure out how to break it in many episodes because it was too convenient and would render the conflict in the story void. Or a more recent example, in "Multiverse of Madness" Wanda's magic tricks seemed to be completely random and OP, and the audience was thinking "why didn't she do this trick before and shortcut 90% of the story?"
Bottom line is that it's pretty hard to think of all of the implications of a tech or magical system when you introduce it. When pushed to the limits (especially by min/maxers and rules lawyers), most systems have some kinds of weaknesses that can be exploited. (Computer games are even more obvious like this...here's looking at you, Elder Scrolls franchise.)
In the end, I think leaving God or the gods as the ultimate check on abuse of a system is necessary--e.g., you try to exploit something, and you will be punished. Severely and without mercy, and your character will be tortured for all eternity and will be turned into an NPC that may be encountered in a piteous state chained in hell forever.
Short of not introducing it in the first place, the easiest way to address this to have countermeasures and arms races. Wanda too powerful? Make the heroes powerful enough to counter her, or throw in an antimagic substance, or whatever. It doesn't really matter how powerful a character is so long as the challenges are up the same standard.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 20, 2022, 09:14:14 AM
You can also lean into the trope nice and hard. Set aside the conventional medieval/Renaissance setting, and go for some kind of steampunk/Victorian era theme. Eberron's a good starting point for this line of thought.
Sure, you can, but isn't that kind of exactly what we're talking about avoiding?
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 20, 2022, 09:10:58 AM(Computer games are even more obvious like this...here's looking at you, Elder Scrolls franchise.)
> Start enchanting a magic item
> Fill the item with enchantments right up to the point where you can't put any more on it
> Remove one enchantment, so that you have one open slot
> Bind a soul to the item, filling up the final slot with the bonus from the bound soul, but not leaving enough space on the item for the curse that comes with the bound soul
> Thanks, Daggerfall!
> Create a new character
> Choose "high elf", which is immune to paralysis
> Choose "critical weakness: paralysis" for free building points
> Thanks, Daggerfall!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 20, 2022, 09:38:23 AM
Short of not introducing it in the first place, the easiest way to address this to have countermeasures and arms races. Wanda too powerful? Make the heroes powerful enough to counter her, or throw in an antimagic substance, or whatever. It doesn't really matter how powerful a character is so long as the challenges are up the same standard.
The thing is with the Cluster F*** that's the current phase of the MCU, we've already established how OP Captain Marvel is...and she's killed by what...Wanda making a statue fall on her? After it was established that Captain Marvel could literally fly straight through a gigantic starship (granted, she was an Alternative Universe version of her, but her powers supposedly came from the same source)?
With RPGs, there's less excuse for this kind of oversight with proper playtesting...and with D&D with nearly 50 years of history as the most-played RPG, one would think that most exploits would either be eliminated in a new version, or the proper counter-measures (as you mention) are put into place.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 20, 2022, 10:43:45 AM
With RPGs, there's less excuse for this kind of oversight with proper playtesting...and with D&D with nearly 50 years of history as the most-played RPG, one would think that most exploits would either be eliminated in a new version, or the proper counter-measures (as you mention) are put into place.
That's how you end up with bloat and bad to worse Sage Advice. And rules descriptions that suck all the life out of the thing. Because the real problem with that approach is you spend all your time putting in fixes to fixes to fixes, instead of doing new content. And every time you do manage to do new content, it invalidates more and more of your "fixes". So the net effect is it becomes impossible to get really creative in a setting without doing a reset. Sound familiar?
Much better to get off that train periodically and start fresh. Which is why, for example, the best Forgotten Realms game is one you do with the original books and build from there, ignoring everything official that came after. And almost is good is using the first FR hardback.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 20, 2022, 11:12:41 AM
That's how you end up with bloat and bad to worse Sage Advice. And rules descriptions that suck all the life out of the thing. Because the real problem with that approach is you spend all your time putting in fixes to fixes to fixes, instead of doing new content. And every time you do manage to do new content, it invalidates more and more of your "fixes". So the net effect is it becomes impossible to get really creative in a setting without doing a reset. Sound familiar?
Much better to get off that train periodically and start fresh. Which is why, for example, the best Forgotten Realms game is one you do with the original books and build from there, ignoring everything official that came after. And almost is good is using the first FR hardback.
I guess that "get off the train periodically" is how I see new editions
should work (not that they necessarily do). A new edition should be a chance to say "this mechanic really doesn't make sense and is exploitable...trash it?" But of course, sometimes legacy issues persist, and to really think "out of the box" sometimes a whole rewrite is more appropriate.
The irony is, of course, that OSR manages to work, despite going back to the 40-50 year old source. Perhaps the problem really is more how players who like to find and use exploits, and not so much the RAW. Sometimes you have to say "Yeah, this is possible...but it won't be fun to use this exploit." It's like finding the ResPot exploit in Skyrim...fun to make ridiculously OP weapons that kill a Legendary Dragon in one blow. Fun for about five minutes, then you ignore the exploit because it makes the game dull.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.
why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.
Why?
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:35:50 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.
why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.
Why?
Because you have players who try to exploit the rules to create nonsense situations? Because you have a need for your world to be fully resolved and consistent? Because it annoys you when others create "what if" scenarios where the world is pushed to its logical limits? That's my understanding anyway. I'm perfectly happy with inconsistency and holes in history and the people I game with buy in to the world, flaws and all, so I don't see this problem. Still sort of interesting to read about it though.
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:35:50 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.
why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.
Why?
1. It's fun
2. It sets down guidelines and limitations for my world
3. I am very wordy
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 02:28:20 AM
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy
The Tippyverse is what happens when you look at DND magic and take it to its logical conclusions.
Sorry Crom won't allow it.
Greetings!
Interesting. I dealt with this conundrum, of sorts, years ago for my campaign world. Even in more recent discussions about this kind of dynamic, my friend reminded me that yeah, embracing all the magic, all the rules, and using logic and merely making a few reasonable assumptions of geopolitics, practically guarantees that the game world will sooner or later be transformed into an almost uber-modern high-magic gonzo world.
I also readily admit that many of those dynamics and developments are sexy and exciting.
However, you can rapidly kiss goodbye any kind historically-based, quasi-medieval world setting. It just will no longer exist, rapidly transformed into the uber-magical gonzo world.
So, I simply make a few hard campaign assumptions, whether such are how magic works, supernatural interference, whatever, to keep things in the campaign under control. admittedly, some of those assumptions, when examined too closely under the hood can seem more thin in logic or assumed reality, but thankfully, my players don't do that. It's mostly stuff that remains in my head and in my world notes. It must remain that way, though, firmly under control, or the medieval world would simply go to shit and you would have an uber magical gonzo world. I don't want that, so, I keep it controlled.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Sounds like the Eberron setting.
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 20, 2022, 04:00:56 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:35:50 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 19, 2022, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 19, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
D&D settings and fiction aren't written with the rules in mind. This is why you see D&D fanfiction generally works like Tippyverse and is full of weird stuff that never appears in published settings. Some stories, like Order of the Stick, parody this. In a lot of GameLit/LitRPG, the characters in-universe will actually discuss the rules as if they live in a VR MMO. I don't like those kinds of stories.
why not make a book outlining exactly how each and every DND setting works just so you can avoid this? don't have to sum it up in game terms, just write it. i spent thousands of words detailing how my world works.
Why?
Because you have players who try to exploit the rules to create nonsense situations?
Put on your big DM pants and tell them 'no, you're not doing that'.
If you read Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or most other popular authors you'll see that some pretty crazy shit is happening in the plot. But that doesn't mean that crazy shit is commonly occurring. In most cases these things are actually extremely rare, and often quite fantastical to your average joe. The reason why hose things are in the rules is because you want to play a game in which fantastic shit happens to unusual characters, not because those things happen to everyone.
Double post
Quote from: Trond on December 21, 2022, 09:31:20 AM
If you read Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or most other popular authors you'll see that some pretty crazy shit is happening in the plot. But that doesn't mean that crazy shit is commonly occurring. In most cases these things are actually extremely rare, and often quite fantastical to your average joe. The reason why hose things are in the rules is because you want to play a game in which fantastic shit happens to unusual characters, not because those things happen to everyone.
A key problem here is that the RPG rules used to define how PCs use magic are also the only description about how magic works in the fictional world. In D&D and many other games, wizards and clerics and other classes are defined as being features of the world. In modules and sourcebooks, there will often be NPC spellcasters similar to PCs. Even a small town will have at least one or two, and cities will have many.
That's a problem for world-building. I don't agree with a bunch of stuff in the Tippyverse document, but some of it does match my view of logical consequences. In general, RPG magic is designed to be ideal for small groups to sneak into the evil duke's castle and take him down. It's not so useful for the duke to enforce his rule. This means that the conditions for the duke's rule to arise in the first place are less likely.
As for how to avoid it, two strategies are (a) make spellcasters more rare, (b) have setting-specific gods / spirits / other powers that influence things away from the tendencies, like keeping rulers in power.
Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2022, 01:59:10 AM
Quote from: Trond on December 21, 2022, 09:31:20 AM
If you read Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or most other popular authors you'll see that some pretty crazy shit is happening in the plot. But that doesn't mean that crazy shit is commonly occurring. In most cases these things are actually extremely rare, and often quite fantastical to your average joe. The reason why hose things are in the rules is because you want to play a game in which fantastic shit happens to unusual characters, not because those things happen to everyone.
A key problem here is that the RPG rules used to define how PCs use magic are also the only description about how magic works in the fictional world. In D&D and many other games, wizards and clerics and other classes are defined as being features of the world. In modules and sourcebooks, there will often be NPC spellcasters similar to PCs. Even a small town will have at least one or two, and cities will have many.
That's a problem for world-building. I don't agree with a bunch of stuff in the Tippyverse document, but some of it does match my view of logical consequences. In general, RPG magic is designed to be ideal for small groups to sneak into the evil duke's castle and take him down. It's not so useful for the duke to enforce his rule. This means that the conditions for the duke's rule to arise in the first place are less likely.
As for how to avoid it, two strategies are (a) make spellcasters more rare, (b) have setting-specific gods / spirits / other powers that influence things away from the tendencies, like keeping rulers in power.
there's a third way: making a book that details how magic ACTUALLY works
QuoteIn DND, how do you avoid something like the Tippyverse?
I don't play with assholes who try to take a steaming shit on the table while we're playing.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 22, 2022, 06:15:20 AM
QuoteIn DND, how do you avoid something like the Tippyverse?
I don't play with assholes who try to take a steaming shit on the table while we're playing.
This. For the love of Gygax, this.
Regarding magic, I've commented on this before: inserting a little chaos into your magical system isn't bad, but if it's too unreliable, players won't use it. You have to strike a balance between 'this always happens' and 'lol roll on chart'.