This idea was sparked earlier this evening when I was watching a video that had Thnks fr th mmrs by Fall Out Boys as its soundtrack. One of the lines in that song is "In case God doesn't show", which reminded me of the film Legion, in which God loses faith in mankind and sends his angels to wipe out humanity.
We - or, at least, those who subscribe to Abrahimic religions - expect that, at the End of Days, God will come to Sort Things Out, we'll all be saved (well, those of us who are Judged worthy, at any rate) and live happily ever after in Heaven or the Kingdom of God or whatever.
But what if God doesn't come? What if, as in Legion, He has lost faith in mankind but, instead of sending his angels to wipe us out, he simply decides to abandon us to whatever Bad Stuff is set to happen at the End of Days? And what if some of His angels are here on Earth in case God doesn't show, watching and waiting for the End Times, ready to defend humanity against the forces of Evil?
I thought it might make for an interesting story/movie/RPG. The protagonists would be these Earth-dwelling angels, known as Watchers - I did some Googling and uncovered some relevant but highly tenuous background in the (non-canonical) Book of Enoch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch#The_Book_of_the_Watchers) about "sons of God" (i.e. angels), also referred to as "watchers", who took "daughters of men" as wives and begat the nephilim. According to one interpretation of the Book of Jubilees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees) (also non-canonical), getting rid of the nephilim is one of the reasons God sent the Flood.
Anyway, our Watchers are either the second wave/cohort, who came after the Flood, or they're the survivors of the original Watchers who stayed true and did not fall into temptation and allow themselves to be distracted by the daughters of men.
The End Times are imminent. The Watchers' wait is over. They have to mobilise and protect mankind from the minions of Hell. In theory, God will come but, having seen him lose patience with mankind once before (there are hints that it was the archangels' intercession on behalf of humankind that persuaded God to warn Noah instead of wiping out all the people and animals), and having witnessed, at first hand, over the course of thousands of years, the evil that men are capable of, they may fear that God will simply abandon Earth to be conquered by Satan's forces. Hence, as well as combatting the minions of Hell, you have some "Faith vs Doubt" internal conflict with potential negative consequences if one's faith is shaken - e.g. making you less effective at combatting demons. At an extreme, loss of faith (not in God's existence, but that he will show up on Judgment Day) could lead a Watcher to despair, with consequences ranging from depression and alcoholism to a full-blown angelic Fall, potentially resulting in begatting of nephilim or even a full-blown defection to the Dark Side.
Other sources of inspiration: End of Days (obviously), The Prophecy, Constantine, the Kurgan's conversation with the priest in Highlander ("He cares for these helpless mortals?") and that immortal line from The Usual Suspects: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convicing the world he didn't exist."
So, good idea, crap idea, meh, already been done?
Good idea, but it had been done quite a few times in literature already (it's quality is another topic). There's some quite strong religious stuff based around similar idea, except that people who weren't good nor evil are Left Be-
Oh wait, that's the title - Left Behind.
it's like a version of CoC, but different. instead of discovering that there's really just a big, uncaring universe out there, the characters discover the opposite. there was some care--but now it's gone, and likely whatever they do for redemption of others or whatever, it doesn't matter. those left behind won't move on to heaven or etc.
the mortals don't have a SAN mechanic equivalent, but the angelic players do.
Quote from: Rincewind1;520750Good idea, but it had been done quite a few times in literature already (it's quality is another topic). There's some quite strong religious stuff based around similar idea, except that people who weren't good nor evil are Left Be-
Oh wait, that's the title - Left Behind.
Yep. Started as a multi volume (around 10 or so) series of books and then adapted to television miniseries that's quite popular on the religious channels in the US, stars Kirk Cameron from "Growing Pains" iirc.
Except that in the Left Behind series... God DOES care. That's sort of the point, following the entire rapture/revalations schema, taking all the 'good' people away and leaving everyone else to pick sides until he... I mean... HE closes out the war. As I recall from my related eschatological readings, the entire point is for those who were good, but not GOOD, to have the chance to prove their worthiness of Heaven or some such by not taking the easy, evil route of signing up wit' de debil.
Now, Armaggeddon, from C.J. Carella (the RPG), had a sort of Cthuluesque outer God (Leviathan?) show up and basically force angels and demons to work together or see all of God's Works consumed or something. Aside from the wildly disparate power levels available, the game is actually pretty good.
I do think that the concept expressed in the OP is a good one, and far removed from normal eschatology. I don't think anything written by people of faith (barring perhaps those burned for heresy back in the day) ever truly address the idea of God just giving up on people. For that matter, they normally don't address angels as much other than extensions/personifications of gods will.
Interestingly, Supernatural (the TV show) DOES sort of deal with this, in that God is around, but officially he doesn't care anymore. So Lucifer and the Demons get to do what they want and the Angels are struggling to do what they see as Gods Will, in the utter absence of guidance, and generally making a muck of things, leaving the mortal heroes to oppose both sides and 'save' humanity. Of course, God may or may not be the geeky 'prophet' that has been writing their story all along... so yer mileage may vary.
I think the idea could be a blast. I like the idea that God just leaves, but I think the idea would be even better if he took Lucifer with him. God was like "If I'm leaving, so are you". Especially if he gave the big bad boss an out. "All will be forgiven, this experiment failed".
Only a few on each side decided to stay and watch over humanity for different reasons.
Then, the players could play various Angels or Demons trying to keep humanity safe from "other things" that come since God is no longer looking after Earth. Some do it for selfish reasons, or because they fell in love, or true altruism. Most miss the Angelic hosts or Demonic hosts and the absence of the Longest War leaves them feeling hollow.
Also, don't worry about Theological accuracy. For a game, I would lean more on Funeological lines. :-D
I've grown rather fond of the idea (hardly unique now...) that Lucifer didn't so much as rebel but do what he was supposed to do (wether he knows that or not is debatable, and fun).
I'm not entirely certain its got any value at all in a roleplaying sense (though the White Wolf Demon:the Fallen tried to milk this eventually).
However: if you postulate a world where God simply walked away, that really does have an impact on what the Devil does afterwards. Of course, I think the OP also speculated that most of the Angels left with God.
The comic book, Preacher, has something like this as its premise.
Quote from: Dodger;520749So, good idea, crap idea, meh, already been done?
I think that it's a good, solid, idea even if something similar has already been done. :)
I like trechriron's idea of God taking Lucifer with him when he bails- it's opens up a whole new avenue to explore! What would humanity, the remaining Angels, and the remaining Demons due is the absence of both absolute Good and absolute Evil?
Personally, I didn't like Legion.
In fact I can't name one adventure/horror movie about "God" or his "Angels" that was ever any good. Or any roleplaying game that set itself "so high".
And if your players are Christian, this could cause more problems as your "interpretation" of "God's Angels" conflicts with their belief systems.
Personally, both God and the Devil are horribly passe, in my opinion - but I came up with D&D = The Devil types.
Quote from: trechriron;520763I like the idea that God just leaves,
He doesn't. There is merely some doubt as to whether He
will show up when the time comes.
Quote from: Dodger;520804He doesn't. There is merely some doubt as to whether He will show up when the time comes.
Yeah, and that "not knowing" thing could also be cool. I just like the idea of having God and the Devil leave, with most of the hosts of Heaven and Hell, leaving a few behind. I could see some interesting friendships between the left-behinds, like in the Prachett-Gaimen novel Good Omens. It would be interesting from the standpoint of a Christian I think (I'm not really a practicing Christian any longer...), but what choices will you make? What will the world look like? Would people find new gods and religions to replace the ones who left?
From any flavor, I appreciate the occult/religion bent of modern horror genres. I dig Kult, and Witchcraft, and Armageddon, and In Nomine, and the string of almost good movies; The Order, Stigmata, End of Days, Contantine, the various The Prophecy movies, et al. Never had the chance to pull of a longer term game with the ideas, but I would like to some day.
Quote from: Blackhand;520797In fact I can't name one adventure/horror movie about "God" or his "Angels" that was ever any good.
Christopher Walken would like a word with you, sir.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prophecy)
The source for two of my all-time favorite quotes:
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?""I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114194/quotes
On a somewhat related note - I once ran a short
GURPS game where aliens invaded Earth under the guise of the Apocalypse, figuring that playing on the human fear of demons would give them a psychological edge, at least at first.
That's one of the alternate settings that is open to table speculation in In Nomine, that God is absent (or not there anymore). Without Metatron to hear the definitive voice of God, let alone walk around with Him on an open basis like they used to, the Archangels operate on faith and a previous order. The Demon Princes in turn try to finish up their revolution, but are caught in this stalemate.
Throw in humanity's belief as a major influence factor for powering Heaven or Hell's factions and you got yourself an interesting contest.
For the record, I see this setting as being analogous to the World of Darkness and reminiscent of Highlander, in the sense that, on the surface, it's no different to the real world. The Watchers keep their existence secret. Even when they intervene overtly, they would not explain who/what they are because there's no reason to do so.
Well, given the mythology in the book of Enoch, I imagine that if God did leave, the Watchers, of all the Angels would be the ones to move openly. Its a great way to score chicks, after all.
I sure this has been said but Armageddon by CJ Carella is a pretty game based mostly on this premise, though the power levels can be a bit uneven. Kult reminds me of this premise also. Maybe even UA and Neliphem iirc.
Actually, I'm shocked I didn't think of Kult! The Demiurge is explicitely dead/missing in Metropolis, so much so that his dark mirror went exploring the gaping hole in reality he left behind at great cost.
That's the keystone of the entire setting, in a way...
True, its a bit more Gnostic than the OP's premise, but its spot faaking on.
Quote from: Spike;521001Actually, I'm shocked I didn't think of Kult! The Demiurge is explicitely dead/missing in Metropolis, so much so that his dark mirror went exploring the gaping hole in reality he left behind at great cost.
That's the keystone of the entire setting, in a way...
True, its a bit more Gnostic than the OP's premise, but its spot faaking on.
Yeah, it seems totally obvious to me, but games set on this premise have always caught my eye being first a Christian and second an unabashed MtAw fangirl, I even have a couple author signed Mage/NWoD books to prove it, in my small RPG library. :)
The whole angle of God just "checking" out on creation is so antithetical to my actual beliefs that it's like "flies to honey" just to run as a game or thought experiment to me.
You have any game from CoC-->Eclipse Phase -->En Nomine and everything in between to completely rip off gleefully, all the time to use with the OP's stated premise.
Because by definition if God checks out you either have an Athesistic/Agnostic universe, like CoC or something Gnostic like a phethora of games. MtAw and Kult being my favorite interpretations of this with Unknown Armies just being delightfully weird.
One of my favorite settings I recently found (though the book is older) is Seventh Seal. Haven't run the system, so I don't know its hiccups, but it's an interesting twist on the divine being distant.
Basically the premise is God believes in humanity so much that He is willing to let humanity be the rebuking hand against the fallen. So the divine only intervene to inspire certain humans to fight against the horde. If the humans fail, then heaven intervenes, humanity is wiped out, and even though the fallen will lose they'll have a moral victory by proving God wrong and making Him sad. But if the humans do successfully rebuke the fallen then God has performed the ultimate insult to the fallen's hubris atop of being right and keeping humanity.
The stakes are high for humanity, the reliance on divine is purposefully weak, and... it's kinda funny. God as the penultimate gambler with a wry sense of humor on a cosmic scale. Wish I could wrangle the players for it.
Quote from: Opaopajr;521034One of my favorite settings I recently found (though the book is older) is Seventh Seal. Haven't run the system, so I don't know its hiccups, but it's an interesting twist on the divine being distant.
Basically the premise is God believes in humanity so much that He is willing to let humanity be the rebuking hand against the fallen. So the divine only intervene to inspire certain humans to fight against the horde. If the humans fail, then heaven intervenes, humanity is wiped out, and even though the fallen will lose they'll have a moral victory by proving God wrong and making Him sad. But if the humans do successfully rebuke the fallen then God has performed the ultimate insult to the fallen's hubris atop of being right and keeping humanity.
The stakes are high for humanity, the reliance on divine is purposefully weak, and... it's kinda funny. God as the penultimate gambler with a wry sense of humor on a cosmic scale. Wish I could wrangle the players for it.
Sounds interesting, so how are humans able to have a chance in this setup? I don't assume they get to be Mages or supernatural in some way?
They do get "special powers" of sorts but overall it's not something strong enough to consistently rely on. They also subdivide the prime 4 archangels into 4 party archetypes: The leader, the fighter, the healer, and the mage/seer. Also there's acts of faith that require piety that can invoke divine assistance. But a lot of it is dependent on humans to be like CoC investigators, have intestinal fortitude, a clever head, cooperative spirit, and emotional resilience.
I'd like to play it, but it doesn't look like it plays like Wu Xia Kung Fu with Holy Water. At least I hope it doesn't play that way... much.
Quote from: Opaopajr;521041They do get "special powers" of sorts but overall it's not something strong enough to consistently rely on. They also subdivide the prime 4 archangels into 4 party archetypes: The leader, the fighter, the healer, and the mage/seer. Also there's acts of faith that require piety that can invoke divine assistance. But a lot of it is dependent on humans to be like CoC investigators, have intestinal fortitude, a clever head, cooperative spirit, and emotional resilience.
I'd like to play it, but it doesn't look like it plays like Wu Xia Kung Fu with Holy Water. At least I hope it doesn't play that way... much.
Haven't heard of that game but I love games like Dark Heresy and Whispering Vault. You have power but it's not auto kill and the world is dangerous and bigger than you. So preferably you investigate and plan your spot to nail TBB to the wall. :)
Sounds like something I should give a peek. I'm totally derailing this thread, sorry.
Actually the derailing is my bad, so...
Quote from: Opaopajr;521044Actually the derailing is my bad, so...
Just PM me with the relevant info, problem solved. :)
If there's any that is.
I think that someone who studies modern magic would be able to make perhaps a more interesting story with what really happened at the apocalypse.
You see, the apocalypse occurred in 1904. It was the change that happens every 2500 years or so, the end of one Astrological aeon and the beginning of a new one; with the collapse of the previous paradigm and the birth of a new structure. The devils of the past Aeon became the gods of the new, and the god of the old Aeon passed away. But of course, there are forces and still, even more than a hundred years later, many many people who are stuck in the paradigm of the Old Aeon, the paradigm of spiritual sacrifice, slavery, obedience, and "rapture", and who are right PISSED that the end of their world didn't happen the way they thought the book of revelation was telling them it would. And for them, an Aeon who's central law is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is most certainly hell on earth.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Werekoala;520855Christopher Walken would like a word with you, sir.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prophecy)
*snip*
Yeah I've seen those movies.
So what you're trying to say is that's a good movie?
Quote from: Opaopajr;521044Actually the derailing is my bad, so...
This thread cannot be derailed. It merely becomes more awesome in an unexpected way.