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One of the best elements of the Dungeon Crawl Classics system is the Warrior's "mighty deeds".

Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games?

Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.

Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Same here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998One of the best elements of the Dungeon Crawl Classics system is the Warrior's "mighty deeds".

Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

I'm planning to incorporate it with Spellcraft and Swordplay, but it would definitely have a cost in attacks, although you can pay that from you next round's attacks:). No, I wouldn't incorporate the Deed die, at least not as is, it would be more similar to Fantasy Age.

The solution itself is simple, just pick a 2d6 set with two visibly different dice, and name one the Warrior Skill die. If that die shows a 6 at first level, 5 at 3rd level, and so on, and the attack is successful or you only missed by 1, you get what amounts to a Deed in DCC;).
The deed can't change a failed attack into a success, but the referee is in his right to demand (or not) that you add a pip to your attack that would have turned your attack into a success, had you announced it before the roll, and/or impose a cost in Attacks. Both the pip(s) to add and the attacks can come from your next round's allotment, though, if you don't have enough of those left.

I implemented a variation of Mighty Deeds into Low Fantasy Gaming (free PDF in my sig): Major Exploits. It is a purely improvisational attack, uses 1 point of Luck. Any PC can perform major exploits (PC exclusive). There are very few limits on what it can accomplish, albeit Boss Monsters have certain protections against them.

Works great! It's one of the most fun things about LFG imo.

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.



Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Quote from: Chainsaw;927017Same here.

Sorry, guys, but that's not what Mighty Deeds are:). The point of Mighty Deeds is the combat specialist, by being specialised, notices opportunities in the normal flow of battle that others would have missed, and uses them. It's about grasping the moment with skill in addition to the normal exchange of attacks and defences, not about trying to force an outcome instead of your attack;).

You can still try a stunt in DCC whether you're Warrior or not, or at least the rules don't prevent it. But the Mighty Deeds are exclusive to the specialists, just like how in Unknown Armies 2e only people that have Fighting as their obsession skill get to use Cherries on good rolls.
In a way, Mighty Deeds are OSR Combat Manoeuvres, if you're familiar with Unknown Armies 2/MRQ2/Mongoose's Legend/RQ6/Mythras;).
In another way, they are the combat equivalent of spells, except the reason isn't "game balance", and unlike powers in a certain edition of D&D, they only work if they make sense:p.

And yes, Major Exploits, as above, use the same idea just great. Thank you for posting, I'd lost your file and couldn't find your site again:D!

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998One of the best elements of the Dungeon Crawl Classics system is the Warrior's "mighty deeds".

Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

First, I think it works great for the DCC RPG. For classic D&D I find it overly fussy because among things you need to add the deed dice mechanic to fighters. And you have to either consult a table or decide what the exact difference between a 3 on the deed dice and a 5.

What I do instead is allow any fighter to perform a stunt in lieu of just inflicting damage. The stunt can't be of a magnitude that would always cause an automatic win in a fight although it could end a fight quickly in the right circumstance like pushing somebody or tripping somebody so they fall off a cliff.

The base mechanic is that the fighter declares his stunt, roll a normal attack roll, if he hits then the target gets to make a saving throw. If the target fail his saving throw the stunt takes effect.

Why do I do it this way?
1) Classic D&D doesn't have a history of using opposed skill rolls

2) Opposed skills rolls in d20 derived systems are weakly tied to the level of the character.

3) The to hit roll and the saving throw in classic D&D are strongly tied to the level or hit dice of the character.

4) Classic D&D saving throws represent a general chance of avoiding something "bad" happening to the character.

5) Stunts fall into the category of something "bad" is going to happen to a character.

6) High level and high hit dice characters are more likely to avoid stunts

7) With a 1 always failing and a 20 always succeed there always a chance of failure or success unlike in opposed rolls.

8) It uses mechanics already in classic D&D just organized in a novel way.

9) You don't really have to fine tune what happens other than avoid being overly generous. The result can be as minor as slicing a petal off of a flower being held by the target, or as drastic as pushing an opponent over a cliff.

10) If additional modifiers are desired you can grant advantage or disadvantage on the to hit roll or the save. You can allow a ability bonus to be added to the save or make the save more difficult by increasing the target number. For example if you feel strongly that the relative strength matters then you can take the different in strength or in strength modifier and chance the target number of the save accordingly.

11) In terms of resolving a combat it clearly inferior to hitting them for damage, but adaptable to use when circumstances require it use. For example Tarvas the Magician is holding the Wand of Doom in his hand and the party has determined that it has to be knocked out of his hand this round.

I been using this for 5 years now it works pretty well. Players do complain about now ineffectual it is to try to trip a 16 HD Earth Elemental. I looked at them and asked them point blank and say "It 16 HD, what would you expect to happen when you tried to trip it?".

Example: PCs are fighting near a ledge, one of the opposition lieutenants is close to the edge of the dropoff. Two PCs whisper and on the first character's turn he announces that he is dropping to the ground on his hands and knees between the lieutenant and the dropoff. The second character announces that he rushing the lieutenant and pushing him off the ledge right across the character on the ground. I rule that he roll his normal to hit and that the lieutenant is at a disadvantage* on his save. The attack succeeds, the lieutenant fails his save and plummets to his death.

If I wanted realism I play GURPS. I feel this system is good enough when it comes to playing classic D&D, it properly accounts for level and hit dice given their importance in classic D&D, it simple to apply at the table, it more abstract than unrealistic, it simple for players to evaluate when to use it, and it has a reasonable chance of working in most circumstances.

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

Haven't seen the need to import this mechanic. It's a class-based critical hit system one top of a game that, in the case of DCC, already has a class-based critical hit system.

Allowing players to spend their critical hits to do the things that Mighty Deeds allows is a much easier and smoother way of handling this type of mechanic.

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

The problem with that in classic D&D that would cause a "I win" result at high levels especially when you throw +2 or better weapons in to the mix. I found the only way to counteract that is to allow the target to have a save against the result.

Quote from: estar;927038The problem with that in classic D&D that would cause a "I win" result at high levels especially when you throw +2 or better weapons in to the mix. I found the only way to counteract that is to allow the target to have a save against the result.

This is one of the main reasons I switched my D&D to-hit chart from level-vs-AC to level-vs-level. Turning the attack roll into a skill vs skill check which eliminates the justification for the saving throw.

Quote from: AsenRG;927026You can still try a stunt in DCC whether you're Warrior or not, or at least the rules don't prevent it.

Stunts are not a concept in the DCC RPG.

However if you want other characters to disarm, trip, try a precise shot, you could use their attack bonus as a basis for a deed dice for example if you are 6th level rogue with a +4 bonus to hit you can have him roll 1d4 as his deed dice.

Quote from: estar;927038The problem with that in classic D&D that would cause a "I win" result at high levels especially when you throw +2 or better weapons in to the mix. I found the only way to counteract that is to allow the target to have a save against the result.

Mighty Deeds allow a "save", in the form of opposed rolls, if the GM thinks it's appropriate:).

Quote from: estar;927041Stunts are not a concept in the DCC RPG.

However if you want other characters to disarm, trip, try a precise shot, you could use their attack bonus as a basis for a deed dice for example if you are 6th level rogue with a +4 bonus to hit you can have him roll 1d4 as his deed dice.

They're not detailed in DCC, right. But they're not forbidden, either, just as they weren't forbidden in older versions of D&D, so I see no reason to disallow them;).

Quote from: hedgehobbit;927040This is one of the main reasons I switched my D&D to-hit chart from level-vs-AC to level-vs-level. Turning the attack roll into a skill vs skill check which eliminates the justification for the saving throw.

My goal is to keep the changes I make as classic D&Dish a possible. Changing the to hit chart to level vs level mean you now have to add in armor as damage reduction, muck around with various monster abilities and spell effect, etc, etc.  And to be clear I am NOT ... NOT saying it wrong, bad, etc only that those are consequences of doing that. Consequences that I want to avoid with my own take.

Quote from: AsenRG;927047Mighty Deeds allow a "save", in the form of opposed rolls, if the GM thinks it's appropriate:).

Opposed rolls don't work the same as classic D&D style saves.

Quote from: AsenRG;927047They're not detailed in DCC, right. But they're not forbidden, either, just as they weren't forbidden in older versions of D&D, so I see no reason to disallow them;).

Sure, I always advocated that the focus should be on describing first, come up with the rules second. If what described is possible for the character to attempt then the chance of success should be assigned and the dice rolled. A wizard can disarm but obviously wouldn't be as good at it as a fighter.

However we are talking specific mechanics here. The DCC RPG has a number of actions wrapped up in the Mighty Deeds of Arms mechanics that classic D&D traditionally handed with ad-hoc rulings like disarm, trip, precision shots, etc. The general introduction to Mighty Deeds also including things like swinging from chandlers. My view if something like this is included in a RPG and it is your opinion as a referee that any character can do some or all the things covered by it, then it needs to be incorporated into your ruling so that that warrior is still best at doing those things.

I for once would agree that a wizard can try for a precise shot, a thief can attempt to disarm, the cleric can trip an opponent. What I would do make sure that the warrior is the best at using Mighty Deeds of Arms is to allow the other classes to do Might Deeds at Arms except they turn their to hit bonus into a deed dice the same way as it done with the warrior. So a 6th level Thief would roll 1d4 because they have +4 to hit.

All the other classes to hit bonuses are clearly inferior to the warrior's deed dice so this would preserve the warrior being the best.

Quote from: estar;927055Opposed rolls don't work the same as classic D&D style saves.

That's why I said "save":). It can save you, but doesn't exactly work the same way.
Though nothing prevents you from just allowing a save to the creature. Let the elemental roll a Reflex or Fortitude save for that trip, set a target number, go.

QuoteSure, I always advocated that the focus should be on describing first, come up with the rules second. If what described is possible for the character to attempt then the chance of success should be assigned and the dice rolled. A wizard can disarm but obviously wouldn't be as good at it as a fighter.

We're in total agreement on that one.

QuoteHowever we are talking specific mechanics here. The DCC RPG has a number of actions wrapped up in the Mighty Deeds of Arms mechanics that classic D&D traditionally handed with ad-hoc rulings like disarm, trip, precision shots, etc. The general introduction to Mighty Deeds also including things like swinging from chandlers. My view if something like this is included in a RPG and it is your opinion as a referee that any character can do some or all the things covered by it, then it needs to be incorporated into your ruling so that that warrior is still best at doing those things.

But assuming the "attack at penalty" solution, he or she still is, and very much so! Why?

First, the warrior attacks at his full bonus (or at least with a 3+stats bonus, if he's to do a Mighty Deed). He needs to hit the same AC to succeed. Who has better odds for tripping an enemy, myy 1st level DCC Warrior Jacqueline, with her total of +2*, or the thief of the same level with his total of -1 to attack, after accounting for the penalty and for him having higher strength?
So the warrior is more likely to succeed.
Second, only warriors get to do the trip and deal their normal damage. The other classes get to pick whether to go for a risky manoeuvre and potentially waste a round, or to just hit. Warriors get to attack and do extra stuff.

Bottomline: fighting a DCC Warrior is a horrific experience which ends quickly.

*My Warrior in a DCC game had a Strength of 6, so she was attacking at penalty. Despite that, she was still considered a terror by the other players, who came to call her "the Chaotic Jacqueline", although she is Neutral in alignment...because whereever she went, chaos always ensued. And somehow, she always ended up surviving it. Including when she faced something like a regenerating ogre after being pushed in a corner.
We had to work quite a bit for destroying that thing, BTW. Everybody else assumed it was a troll, and were surprised when fire didn't work.

QuoteI for once would agree that a wizard can try for a precise shot, a thief can attempt to disarm, the cleric can trip an opponent. What I would do make sure that the warrior is the best at using Mighty Deeds of Arms is to allow the other classes to do Might Deeds at Arms except they turn their to hit bonus into a deed dice the same way as it done with the warrior. So a 6th level Thief would roll 1d4 because they have +4 to hit.

All the other classes to hit bonuses are clearly inferior to the warrior's deed dice so this would preserve the warrior being the best.

Yeah, and I just wouldn't use them to use the same mechanic. This is a mechanical exception for Warriors only.
Not using the same mechanic preserves the Warrior's chances of success being higher, and allow the specialist to achieve the same things faster. That's working as intended, if you ask me;).

SO as someone who couldn't get into DCC (it's seems a little too cutthroat up front, with it's suggestion to make several characters as the implication that several will die), what do these Mighty Deeds allow you to do?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;927237SO as someone who couldn't get into DCC (it's seems a little too cutthroat up front, with it's suggestion to make several characters as the implication that several will die), what do these Mighty Deeds allow you to do?

It open ended, however specifics are given for combat maneuvers like disarm, trip, precise shots, etc. The general idea is that if the deed dice is a 3 or higher then fighter can execute a special maneuver. Typically deed dice operates as a random to-hit bonus as well as a damage bonus for warriors. In the DCC RPG only the non-warrior classes have a fixed to hit bonus as result of their class.

Quote from: estar;927242It open ended, however specifics are given for combat maneuvers like disarm, trip, precise shots, etc. The general idea is that if the deed dice is a 3 or higher then fighter can execute a special maneuver. Typically deed dice operates as a random to-hit bonus as well as a damage bonus for warriors. In the DCC RPG only the non-warrior classes have a fixed to hit bonus as result of their class.

I've used Deeds to deal extra damage, inflict penalties by pain, throw an enemy with my sword the way you do in harnichfechten, gather allies around me and provide them extra AC as long as we keep the formation, and inflict terror in the enemies by display of skill, just as examples;).

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.



Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Ok, but there's one very important difference in DCC compared to most other D&D-based systems. One of the things that frequently gimped fighters is that they could EITHER do a stunt of some sort, or just attack.  Often, the stunt is difficult to do, and unlikely to be more effective than just doing another 8hp damage. So except in very special circumstances (usually where it's literally impossible for some reason for the fighter to do regular damage), the fighter's every action will just be "I hit it with my sword".

In DCC, you can do a Mighty Deed AND attack. If you fail at the attack roll, then you also fail at the deed, but if you succeed the attack and beat the deed die number required, you get to do BOTH regular damage and the stunt effect.

That's what makes it special. And what means that while in a lot of D&D games the fighter becomes increasingly less powerful compared to other classes as the party level goes up, in DCC they are awesome at every level, and a high-level DCC fighter is amazing.

Quote from: estar;927055Opposed rolls don't work the same as classic D&D style saves.



Sure, I always advocated that the focus should be on describing first, come up with the rules second. If what described is possible for the character to attempt then the chance of success should be assigned and the dice rolled. A wizard can disarm but obviously wouldn't be as good at it as a fighter.

However we are talking specific mechanics here. The DCC RPG has a number of actions wrapped up in the Mighty Deeds of Arms mechanics that classic D&D traditionally handed with ad-hoc rulings like disarm, trip, precision shots, etc. The general introduction to Mighty Deeds also including things like swinging from chandlers. My view if something like this is included in a RPG and it is your opinion as a referee that any character can do some or all the things covered by it, then it needs to be incorporated into your ruling so that that warrior is still best at doing those things.

I for once would agree that a wizard can try for a precise shot, a thief can attempt to disarm, the cleric can trip an opponent. What I would do make sure that the warrior is the best at using Mighty Deeds of Arms is to allow the other classes to do Might Deeds at Arms except they turn their to hit bonus into a deed dice the same way as it done with the warrior. So a 6th level Thief would roll 1d4 because they have +4 to hit.

All the other classes to hit bonuses are clearly inferior to the warrior's deed dice so this would preserve the warrior being the best.

To me, the MAIN detail of "mighty deeds" is that unlike most other D&D games, where the warrior is forced to choose to EITHER attack and do damage or try to do something special (usually at a penalty, or in some way that is much harder than just rolling to hit), in DCC the fighter gets to do an attack AND try to do something special every single round.

In my DCC campaign, I allow any player to attempt just about everything that is covered by standard mighty deeds: trips, blinding attacks, precision strikes, defensive fighting, etc. But they do so only INSTEAD of their usual attack or other action.  The big advantage the fighter has, and that finally leaves him not-gimped compared to the spellcasters, is how he can do both at the same time and how he is massively more efficient at hitting and damaging than the other classes.

I probably love the DCC warrior most out of all the DCC classes. The Niche Protection is really good in DCC, and all the classes get to be really good at the thing they're supposed to be really good at; but with DCC you finally get warriors that are true killing machines (and fancy fighting machines) compared to the other classes. It's one of very few OSR games where the warrior doesn't feel inferior at by mid level to the cleric and magic-user.  There's others that accomplish this to some degree (LotFP does it by making fighters the ONLY class that gains to-hit bonuses as they level; and in my own Arrows of Indra and Appendix P rules I tried very hard to make warriors significantly more effective in combat to offset the other classes' special abilities), but DCC does it probably more excellently than any other game I've seen.  I didn't really realize just how much until I saw mid-level DCC warriors in action in my epic campaign.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;927237SO as someone who couldn't get into DCC (it's seems a little too cutthroat up front, with it's suggestion to make several characters as the implication that several will die), what do these Mighty Deeds allow you to do?

Other people have already given the list of typical examples: tripping, precision shots, blinding attacks, shield-breaking, defensive fighting, etc. etc.

What I'll add is this:
-Fighters get to do an attack AND try to do a mighty deed every single round.
-the deed die acts as their 'to-hit' bonus AND adds to the damage if they hit.
-You need a 3 or more on a deed die to succeed to at least some extent in your deed; at 1st level a warrior has a d3 deed die, so he'll only succeed on average at one in every 3 attempted deeds. But his deed die keeps growing as they go up in level; at lv.2 it's a d4, so they succeed at half their deeds. By level 5 or 6 it's around a d8, so they succeed at 75% of their deeds.

I've seen it used, in my epic DCC campaign (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?29376-DCC-Campaign-Log), to some very impressive extents. In particular, two PCs (Vishal the former-brahmin and Chu the Boat-Swine) got high enough level as warriors to do some very impressive stunts: decapitations, acrobatic maneuvers to get to an opponent, lighting one opponent on fire while stabbing another through the chest, putting one opponent in the way of sword blow while cutting down another, etc.

I also had (before either of those two PCs) one mid-level NPC character, Sandy the Bikini-Chainmail Barbarian (later known as Sandy the Warlord), who I largely introduced to the party specifically to give the PCs who were playing warriors ideas about just what you can potentially do with mighty deeds.  I remember in particular one maneuver when the party were in essence prisoners of the famed drug lord Slothy Rodriguez, sitting unarmed at a very long dining table in his palatial hideout. When one of the PCs decided it was time to fight their way out (I don't remember if it was Bill the Elf or Ack'basha the Cleric, but one of those two famous PC assholes opened the affair by casting a spell of some kind), a lot of the other PCs ducked under the huge table to avoid the Sloths' barrage of uzi-fire, while a couple attacked the nearest gangster. Sandy, in turn, jumped up on her table grabbing her plate and cutlery, stabbing one of the guards in the jugular with her fork, threw her butter knife straight across the table directly into Slothy's eye, and beat a third guard into unconsciousness with her plate.

With two attacks (mid-level warriors have two attacks in DCC) she took down three guys in a single round and did it in a spectacular cinematic fashion. I think that was the moment that my players realized the potential of DCC warriors (they were until then more inclined to the spellcasting classes), realizing that Sandy did that not because I was cheating or doing something with an NPC that they could never do with a PC, but that I rolled all of it, and that the only difference between Sandy and any of them was a matter of level, so that their mid-level warriors would be able to be just as badass as some of the other PCs mid-level wizards or clerics.

Quote from: RPGPundit;928281Ok, but there's one very important difference in DCC compared to most other D&D-based systems. One of the things that frequently gimped fighters is that they could EITHER do a stunt of some sort, or just attack.  Often, the stunt is difficult to do, and unlikely to be more effective than just doing another 8hp damage. So except in very special circumstances (usually where it's literally impossible for some reason for the fighter to do regular damage), the fighter's every action will just be "I hit it with my sword".

In DCC, you can do a Mighty Deed AND attack. If you fail at the attack roll, then you also fail at the deed, but if you succeed the attack and beat the deed die number required, you get to do BOTH regular damage and the stunt effect.

That's what makes it special. And what means that while in a lot of D&D games the fighter becomes increasingly less powerful compared to other classes as the party level goes up, in DCC they are awesome at every level, and a high-level DCC fighter is amazing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;928282To me, the MAIN detail of "mighty deeds" is that unlike most other D&D games, where the warrior is forced to choose to EITHER attack and do damage or try to do something special (usually at a penalty, or in some way that is much harder than just rolling to hit), in DCC the fighter gets to do an attack AND try to do something special every single round.

In my DCC campaign, I allow any player to attempt just about everything that is covered by standard mighty deeds: trips, blinding attacks, precision strikes, defensive fighting, etc. But they do so only INSTEAD of their usual attack or other action.  The big advantage the fighter has, and that finally leaves him not-gimped compared to the spellcasters, is how he can do both at the same time and how he is massively more efficient at hitting and damaging than the other classes.

I probably love the DCC warrior most out of all the DCC classes. The Niche Protection is really good in DCC, and all the classes get to be really good at the thing they're supposed to be really good at; but with DCC you finally get warriors that are true killing machines (and fancy fighting machines) compared to the other classes. It's one of very few OSR games where the warrior doesn't feel inferior at by mid level to the cleric and magic-user.  There's others that accomplish this to some degree (LotFP does it by making fighters the ONLY class that gains to-hit bonuses as they level; and in my own Arrows of Indra and Appendix P rules I tried very hard to make warriors significantly more effective in combat to offset the other classes' special abilities), but DCC does it probably more excellently than any other game I've seen.  I didn't really realize just how much until I saw mid-level DCC warriors in action in my epic campaign.

For a welcome change, I agree with Pundit 100% here, and had even already mentioned the "extra action" for Estar:).

Quote from: RPGPundit;928283Other people have already given the list of typical examples: tripping, precision shots, blinding attacks, shield-breaking, defensive fighting, etc. etc.

What I'll add is this:
-Fighters get to do an attack AND try to do a mighty deed every single round.
-the deed die acts as their 'to-hit' bonus AND adds to the damage if they hit.
-You need a 3 or more on a deed die to succeed to at least some extent in your deed; at 1st level a warrior has a d3 deed die, so he'll only succeed on average at one in every 3 attempted deeds. But his deed die keeps growing as they go up in level; at lv.2 it's a d4, so they succeed at half their deeds. By level 5 or 6 it's around a d8, so they succeed at 75% of their deeds.

I've seen it used, in my epic DCC campaign (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?29376-DCC-Campaign-Log), to some very impressive extents. In particular, two PCs (Vishal the former-brahmin and Chu the Boat-Swine) got high enough level as warriors to do some very impressive stunts: decapitations, acrobatic maneuvers to get to an opponent, lighting one opponent on fire while stabbing another through the chest, putting one opponent in the way of sword blow while cutting down another, etc.

I also had (before either of those two PCs) one mid-level NPC character, Sandy the Bikini-Chainmail Barbarian (later known as Sandy the Warlord), who I largely introduced to the party specifically to give the PCs who were playing warriors ideas about just what you can potentially do with mighty deeds.  I remember in particular one maneuver when the party were in essence prisoners of the famed drug lord Slothy Rodriguez, sitting unarmed at a very long dining table in his palatial hideout. When one of the PCs decided it was time to fight their way out (I don't remember if it was Bill the Elf or Ack'basha the Cleric, but one of those two famous PC assholes opened the affair by casting a spell of some kind), a lot of the other PCs ducked under the huge table to avoid the Sloths' barrage of uzi-fire, while a couple attacked the nearest gangster. Sandy, in turn, jumped up on her table grabbing her plate and cutlery, stabbing one of the guards in the jugular with her fork, threw her butter knife straight across the table directly into Slothy's eye, and beat a third guard into unconsciousness with her plate.

With two attacks (mid-level warriors have two attacks in DCC) she took down three guys in a single round and did it in a spectacular cinematic fashion. I think that was the moment that my players realized the potential of DCC warriors (they were until then more inclined to the spellcasting classes), realizing that Sandy did that not because I was cheating or doing something with an NPC that they could never do with a PC, but that I rolled all of it, and that the only difference between Sandy and any of them was a matter of level, so that their mid-level warriors would be able to be just as badass as some of the other PCs mid-level wizards or clerics.

This, and I want to note that if I was to run a campaign with warriors, I'd let results of 7+ on the Deed die accomplish things like parrying a spell (with a roll-off between the caster's and the warrior's level, of course, with results like a spell duel). I guess that some Referees wouldn't allow it, but I feel like there's enough precedent since Chainmail for the Fighting Man having fantastic abilities;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;928281In DCC, you can do a Mighty Deed AND attack. If you fail at the attack roll, then you also fail at the deed, but if you succeed the attack and beat the deed die number required, you get to do BOTH regular damage and the stunt effect.

Ah, I see. Sounds like a straightforward port in any case.

Maybe instead of a penalty, require a minimum positive margin on the attack roll to apply the stunt effect.

Pieter the Fighter squares off against a brigand, which he hits on a 8+ on the 1d20. He wants to disarm the bandit so he may capture and interrogate him. The DM rules this is a 4-point stunt, so he needs a 12+ to hit and disarm. He gets a 11, failing to disarm, but still inflicting damage.

For extra badassery, allow the PC to call the stunt after the die roll, knowing how high above the to-hit value he's rolled.

Or for maximum simplicity, just give the Fighter the deed die already. You already own the funny dice, don't you? ;)

So, how does two attacks translate into 3 dead people?

Attack one - Jump up on table and stab a guy with the fork.  What did the Deed do exactly?  
Allow the jump and stab across the table?
Allow a fork to count as a dagger?
Simply narrate an instant-kill because Deed?

Attack Two - Throw the knife.  Again, what did the Deed do exactly?
Turn butterknife into dagger?
Turn attack into critical?

Attack Three - Beat someone to death with a plate?  Deed did what?
Allowed a plate to become a club and not break when used as an improvised weapon?
Extra damage?
Critical?

Two actual Action Dice means two attacks plus two Deeds, so one of the Deeds must have been used to gain a third attack, right?

Everyone has lots of interesting DCC anecdotes of what Deeds do, but no one ever places them in rule terms, at which point you really get as much system information as you would from a storygame player using some kind of metapoint to make things happen.

Quote from: AsenRG;928295This, and I want to note that if I was to run a campaign with warriors, I'd let results of 7+ on the Deed die accomplish things like parrying a spell (with a roll-off between the caster's and the warrior's level, of course, with results like a spell duel).

How as this done as the Might Deeds roll is made as an attack and not during the wizard's action.

Quote from: CRKrueger;928425So, how does two attacks translate into 3 dead people?

Attack one - Jump up on table and stab a guy with the fork.  What did the Deed do exactly?  
Allow the jump and stab across the table?
Allow a fork to count as a dagger?
Simply narrate an instant-kill because Deed?

Attack Two - Throw the knife.  Again, what did the Deed do exactly?
Turn butterknife into dagger?
Turn attack into critical?

Attack Three - Beat someone to death with a plate?  Deed did what?
Allowed a plate to become a club and not break when used as an improvised weapon?
Extra damage?
Critical?

Two actual Action Dice means two attacks plus two Deeds, so one of the Deeds must have been used to gain a third attack, right?

Everyone has lots of interesting DCC anecdotes of what Deeds do, but no one ever places them in rule terms, at which point you really get as much system information as you would from a storygame player using some kind of metapoint to make things happen.

I'd expect something like "I hit with my first attack and use my Deed for a Cleave-like action, then I throw the knife", in OOC terms:).
Though that's best answered by Pundit himself;).

Quote from: hedgehobbit;928426How as this done as the Might Deeds roll is made as an attack and not during the wizard's action.

"I cut the spell he's been casting in twain!"

Hmm, interesting.  I may have to adapt this mechanic for my home games.  Sounds very interesting.

Quote from: AsenRG;928295For a welcome change, I agree with Pundit 100% here, and had even already mentioned the "extra action" for Estar:).


This, and I want to note that if I was to run a campaign with warriors, I'd let results of 7+ on the Deed die accomplish things like parrying a spell (with a roll-off between the caster's and the warrior's level, of course, with results like a spell duel). I guess that some Referees wouldn't allow it, but I feel like there's enough precedent since Chainmail for the Fighting Man having fantastic abilities;).

Hmm. Never considered that. But I'd probably say that would only be possible with some kind of magic sword or magic shield.

Quote from: CRKrueger;928425So, how does two attacks translate into 3 dead people?

Attack one - Jump up on table and stab a guy with the fork.  What did the Deed do exactly?  
Allow the jump and stab across the table?
Allow a fork to count as a dagger?
Simply narrate an instant-kill because Deed?

Attack Two - Throw the knife.  Again, what did the Deed do exactly?
Turn butterknife into dagger?
Turn attack into critical?

Attack Three - Beat someone to death with a plate?  Deed did what?
Allowed a plate to become a club and not break when used as an improvised weapon?
Extra damage?
Critical?

Two actual Action Dice means two attacks plus two Deeds, so one of the Deeds must have been used to gain a third attack, right?

Everyone has lots of interesting DCC anecdotes of what Deeds do, but no one ever places them in rule terms, at which point you really get as much system information as you would from a storygame player using some kind of metapoint to make things happen.

Action 1: the Deed was to jump onto the table while stabbing the guy with the fork. The deed was to go from being seated to being on top of the table with a single leap while still getting to attack.

Action 2: the attack was throwing the knife, the deed was to hit someone with the plate at the same time. The damage from the knife was the full regular damage (the knife's base damage + str bonus + deed die bonus; and in this case, if I recall correctly, it was also a critical).  The plate's damage was the bonus damage indicated by the successful deed + str bonus + deed die.

Quote from: RPGPundit;929193Hmm. Never considered that. But I'd probably say that would only be possible with some kind of magic sword or magic shield.

That's why different Referees might make different rulings, isn't it:)?
To me, a fighter who achieved at least a d7 Deed die is magical enough, just like in Chainmail one of the level names was Superhero. I'd say a high-level fighter makes arcane forces swirl around his sword by unleashing his killer intent, because then the whole Death domain really pays attention;).

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.

Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Tried those, as well as rolls against stats or saves.  Never liked it, always felt forced given the all or nothing aspect of the rolls.  Prefer variable degree of success mechanics, they delivered everything I was ever looking for.  Sad it took me over 30 years of gaming to find a good mechanic.  It was Atomic Highway coupled with experiences in the board game Alien Frontiers that convinced me.  No need for feats or a sub-game to get the same "mighty deed" effect.

Quote from: RPGPundit;929194Action 1: the Deed was to jump onto the table while stabbing the guy with the fork. The deed was to go from being seated to being on top of the table with a single leap while still getting to attack.

Action 2: the attack was throwing the knife, the deed was to hit someone with the plate at the same time. The damage from the knife was the full regular damage (the knife's base damage + str bonus + deed die bonus; and in this case, if I recall correctly, it was also a critical).  The plate's damage was the bonus damage indicated by the successful deed + str bonus + deed die.

Ok, so the guys at the table just had a very low amount of HPs so a 1d4 plus 2or3 plus 1d6 or something was enough to kill them, with a crit in one case.

Quote from: CRKrueger;929329Ok, so the guys at the table just had a very low amount of HPs so a 1d4 plus 2or3 plus 1d6 or something was enough to kill them, with a crit in one case.

Most normal humans have low HP in DCC. It's a game where normal humans have one hit die, no class levels:).

And now remember that if you have a Mighty Deed at all, you have rolled at least 3, which is also added to both your attack and damage, and for a middle-levels Warrior that might easily be 5 or 6 instead;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;929329Ok, so the guys at the table just had a very low amount of HPs so a 1d4 plus 2or3 plus 1d6 or something was enough to kill them, with a crit in one case.

More or less; Crits can be insta-kills for high level warriors. Also, by this point I think Sandy had a d7 deed die, so it could have been closer to 1d4 plus 7or8 plus 1d6.
Basic mook-humanoids don't have enormous amounts of HP in DCC.

Quote from: AsenRG;929332Most normal humans have low HP in DCC. It's a game where normal humans have one hit die, no class levels:).

These were "normal intelligent sloth drug-lords" but otherwise you are correct.

Quote from: RPGPundit;930366Basic mook-humanoids don't have enormous amounts of HP in DCC.

Older versions of D&D have various methods for fighters dealing with mooks (extra attacks, cleaves, spillover) so having a mid level fighter kill three mooks in one round isn't all that special. It seems that DCC is just adding a bunch of rules and tables to do what D&D did in a single sentence.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;930428Older versions of D&D have various methods for fighters dealing with mooks (extra attacks, cleaves, spillover) so having a mid level fighter kill three mooks in one round isn't all that special. It seems that DCC is just adding a bunch of rules and tables to do what D&D did in a single sentence.

Mighty Deeds can be just as easily applied against giants as against mooks, though, not to mention that there are no tables;).

Quote from: hedgehobbit;930428It seems that DCC is just adding a bunch of rules and tables to do what D&D did in a single sentence.

I wouldn't say Mighty Deeds is 'a bunch of rules and tables', and in play it just flies without consulting the book. To me it's just Feats without the hassle.

You're trying "Mighty Deeds" all the time.  You're an adventurer, that's what they do.

Rolling a 20 means you've succeeded.

Okay, we're done.  Somebody fetch me a beer.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930520You're trying "Mighty Deeds" all the time.  You're an adventurer, that's what they do.

Rolling a 20 means you've succeeded.

Okay, we're done.  Somebody fetch me a beer.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, when I can man handle a dragon with my bare hands, I'll believe it.  Otherwise, I'll stand behind my army, while the guy in the funny hat does things like STOP TIME.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;930599:rolleyes:

Yeah, when I can man handle a dragon with my bare hands, I'll believe it.  Otherwise, I'll stand behind my army, while the guy in the funny hat does things like STOP TIME.

In Low Fantasy Gaming, you could use a major exploit to cut off a dragon's wing, poke out it's eye, skewer it's jaws shut, and so on and so forth - subject to the GM agreeing such an exploit is possible. If the dragon is a Boss monster, which it probably is (there is a template the GM can use), you would have to wait until the dragon is staggered (ie half HP) before you could do that.

Against non-boss monsters, you can perform these kinds of moments of greatness as soon as the fight starts - or indeed insta-kill a monster with HD less than your level  - at the cost of a successful major exploit, which costs 1 Luck (Luck refreshes very slowly in LFG).

Quote from: Psikerlord;930621In Low Fantasy Gaming, you could use a major exploit to cut off a dragon's wing, poke out it's eye, skewer it's jaws shut, and so on and so forth - subject to the GM agreeing such an exploit is possible.

It's also a good example of what Mighty Deeds you can do in DCC.

Quote from: AsenRG;930464Mighty Deeds can be just as easily applied against giants as against mooks, though, not to mention that there are no tables;).

Yeah.  Mighty deeds are gorgeous and fun when it's a mid-level warrior confronting a big mass of mooks, but they can be spectacularly effective when facing off against single large/powerful opponents.

So I'm in a bit of a conundrum.  The idea of Mighty Deeds sounds fun and cool, but I don't have the money to spend on a book/game that I know I can run, much less one I know I won't (I know my game crew and DCC's style of 'character creation' would turn them off. All except one guy.)  But I'm also finding that it's hard to just work out what to use the idea for, without having access to the rule exactly.  Which may need the rest of the book for context.

I get that wrestling a troll barehanded isn't as impressive as talking to Gods, or simply turning someone into a newt (I got better!), but it's still a benny for those who want to feel 'powerful' in a game system that allows the former, but rarely speaks for feats of physical 'heroism'.

At the moment, if someone wants to trip, disarm, or other vex the target instead of damage, I have the PC attack, and the target gets a save.

If the PC is severing a wing to ground a flyer, blinding a foe, or maim with damage, I have them attack twice and both rolls have to hit. That gives fighters an advantage since they have the biggest bonus to attack.

It's a new rule, and working so far.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;931705So I'm in a bit of a conundrum.  The idea of Mighty Deeds sounds fun and cool, but I don't have the money to spend on a book/game that I know I can run, much less one I know I won't (I know my game crew and DCC's style of 'character creation' would turn them off. All except one guy.)  But I'm also finding that it's hard to just work out what to use the idea for, without having access to the rule exactly.  Which may need the rest of the book for context.

I get that wrestling a troll barehanded isn't as impressive as talking to Gods, or simply turning someone into a newt (I got better!), but it's still a benny for those who want to feel 'powerful' in a game system that allows the former, but rarely speaks for feats of physical 'heroism'.

You might consider Low Fantasy Gaming RPG and its major exploits mechanic. It's a free PDF: https://lowfantasygaming.com/freepdf/   (or print on demand)

I considered including something along the lines of mighty deeds in my upcoming (still untitled) Medieval Authentic OSR rulebook, but in the end I decided against it. Fighters will still get a few impressive special combat benefits no other class has, though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;946982I considered including something along the lines of mighty deeds in my upcoming (still untitled) Medieval Authentic OSR rulebook, but in the end I decided against it. Fighters will still get a few impressive special combat benefits no other class has, though.

Personally, and again, this is JUST ME, I'd give the fighter a scaling damage bonus of some sort, as long as the Thief/Rogue/Skill Monkey gets something similar.  A fighting man is not just a trained soldier and leader, they're a trained killer, a cut above the average man at arm.  They know where to hit to make it hurt the most, how to hit hard enough to keep a foe down.

A thief is at best, a positional killer.  They know the soft spots, but when facing a foe in face to face combat, isn't quite as good.

But as always, my opinion.

Quote from: estar;927036The base mechanic is that the fighter declares his stunt, roll a normal attack roll, if he hits then the target gets to make a saving throw. If the target fail his saving throw the stunt takes effect.

I love this rule. It's simple, and easily adaptable to play. It uses common mechanics and I don't have to look it up when it happens.

Quote from: Baron Opal;931909If the PC is severing a wing to ground a flyer, blinding a foe, or maim with damage, I have them attack twice and both rolls have to hit. That gives fighters an advantage since they have the biggest bonus to attack.

This is a solid addenda too!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;947165Personally, and again, this is JUST ME, I'd give the fighter a scaling damage bonus of some sort, as long as the Thief/Rogue/Skill Monkey gets something similar.  A fighting man is not just a trained soldier and leader, they're a trained killer, a cut above the average man at arm.  They know where to hit to make it hurt the most, how to hit hard enough to keep a foe down.

A thief is at best, a positional killer.  They know the soft spots, but when facing a foe in face to face combat, isn't quite as good.

But as always, my opinion.

In my upcoming game, thieves will be quite deadly at doing surprise attacks.  For everything else, fighters will be much better.  Scots' men (barbarians) will be decent warriors but fighters will be a lot better at doing damage than they are, they'll be much better at taking damage without falling.

I'd like to note that the Deed Die does add a bonus damage to the fighter. Given that it scales with level, it's a scaling bonus, too.
So DCC is already doing that, in a way, and so is Low Fantasy RPG with the Minor Exploits.

Quote from: AsenRG;947870I'd like to note that the Deed Die does add a bonus damage to the fighter. Given that it scales with level, it's a scaling bonus, too.
So DCC is already doing that, in a way, and so is Low Fantasy RPG with the Minor Exploits.

Yes, true.

In my upcoming Medieval Authentic game, fighters will add their level to all melee and ranged damage. They can also attack a number of opponents in melee equal to their level, if those opponents are their level/HD or less.