One of the best elements of the Dungeon Crawl Classics system is the Warrior's "mighty deeds".

Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games?

Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.

Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Same here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998One of the best elements of the Dungeon Crawl Classics system is the Warrior's "mighty deeds".

Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

I'm planning to incorporate it with Spellcraft and Swordplay, but it would definitely have a cost in attacks, although you can pay that from you next round's attacks:). No, I wouldn't incorporate the Deed die, at least not as is, it would be more similar to Fantasy Age.

The solution itself is simple, just pick a 2d6 set with two visibly different dice, and name one the Warrior Skill die. If that die shows a 6 at first level, 5 at 3rd level, and so on, and the attack is successful or you only missed by 1, you get what amounts to a Deed in DCC;).
The deed can't change a failed attack into a success, but the referee is in his right to demand (or not) that you add a pip to your attack that would have turned your attack into a success, had you announced it before the roll, and/or impose a cost in Attacks. Both the pip(s) to add and the attacks can come from your next round's allotment, though, if you don't have enough of those left.

I implemented a variation of Mighty Deeds into Low Fantasy Gaming (free PDF in my sig): Major Exploits. It is a purely improvisational attack, uses 1 point of Luck. Any PC can perform major exploits (PC exclusive). There are very few limits on what it can accomplish, albeit Boss Monsters have certain protections against them.

Works great! It's one of the most fun things about LFG imo.

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Always did, by encouraging players to try stunts such as disarming and tripping.



Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

Quote from: Chainsaw;927017Same here.

Sorry, guys, but that's not what Mighty Deeds are:). The point of Mighty Deeds is the combat specialist, by being specialised, notices opportunities in the normal flow of battle that others would have missed, and uses them. It's about grasping the moment with skill in addition to the normal exchange of attacks and defences, not about trying to force an outcome instead of your attack;).

You can still try a stunt in DCC whether you're Warrior or not, or at least the rules don't prevent it. But the Mighty Deeds are exclusive to the specialists, just like how in Unknown Armies 2e only people that have Fighting as their obsession skill get to use Cherries on good rolls.
In a way, Mighty Deeds are OSR Combat Manoeuvres, if you're familiar with Unknown Armies 2/MRQ2/Mongoose's Legend/RQ6/Mythras;).
In another way, they are the combat equivalent of spells, except the reason isn't "game balance", and unlike powers in a certain edition of D&D, they only work if they make sense:p.

And yes, Major Exploits, as above, use the same idea just great. Thank you for posting, I'd lost your file and couldn't find your site again:D!

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998One of the best elements of the Dungeon Crawl Classics system is the Warrior's "mighty deeds".

Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

First, I think it works great for the DCC RPG. For classic D&D I find it overly fussy because among things you need to add the deed dice mechanic to fighters. And you have to either consult a table or decide what the exact difference between a 3 on the deed dice and a 5.

What I do instead is allow any fighter to perform a stunt in lieu of just inflicting damage. The stunt can't be of a magnitude that would always cause an automatic win in a fight although it could end a fight quickly in the right circumstance like pushing somebody or tripping somebody so they fall off a cliff.

The base mechanic is that the fighter declares his stunt, roll a normal attack roll, if he hits then the target gets to make a saving throw. If the target fail his saving throw the stunt takes effect.

Why do I do it this way?
1) Classic D&D doesn't have a history of using opposed skill rolls

2) Opposed skills rolls in d20 derived systems are weakly tied to the level of the character.

3) The to hit roll and the saving throw in classic D&D are strongly tied to the level or hit dice of the character.

4) Classic D&D saving throws represent a general chance of avoiding something "bad" happening to the character.

5) Stunts fall into the category of something "bad" is going to happen to a character.

6) High level and high hit dice characters are more likely to avoid stunts

7) With a 1 always failing and a 20 always succeed there always a chance of failure or success unlike in opposed rolls.

It uses mechanics already in classic D&D just organized in a novel way.

9) You don't really have to fine tune what happens other than avoid being overly generous. The result can be as minor as slicing a petal off of a flower being held by the target, or as drastic as pushing an opponent over a cliff.

10) If additional modifiers are desired you can grant advantage or disadvantage on the to hit roll or the save. You can allow a ability bonus to be added to the save or make the save more difficult by increasing the target number. For example if you feel strongly that the relative strength matters then you can take the different in strength or in strength modifier and chance the target number of the save accordingly.

11) In terms of resolving a combat it clearly inferior to hitting them for damage, but adaptable to use when circumstances require it use. For example Tarvas the Magician is holding the Wand of Doom in his hand and the party has determined that it has to be knocked out of his hand this round.

I been using this for 5 years now it works pretty well. Players do complain about now ineffectual it is to try to trip a 16 HD Earth Elemental. I looked at them and asked them point blank and say "It 16 HD, what would you expect to happen when you tried to trip it?".

Example: PCs are fighting near a ledge, one of the opposition lieutenants is close to the edge of the dropoff. Two PCs whisper and on the first character's turn he announces that he is dropping to the ground on his hands and knees between the lieutenant and the dropoff. The second character announces that he rushing the lieutenant and pushing him off the ledge right across the character on the ground. I rule that he roll his normal to hit and that the lieutenant is at a disadvantage* on his save. The attack succeeds, the lieutenant fails his save and plummets to his death.

If I wanted realism I play GURPS. I feel this system is good enough when it comes to playing classic D&D, it properly accounts for level and hit dice given their importance in classic D&D, it simple to apply at the table, it more abstract than unrealistic, it simple for players to evaluate when to use it, and it has a reasonable chance of working in most circumstances.

Quote from: RPGPundit;926998Have you ever tried to incorporate this feature into other OSR games? If you don't bring in the 'deed die', how would you manage it?

Haven't seen the need to import this mechanic. It's a class-based critical hit system one top of a game that, in the case of DCC, already has a class-based critical hit system.

Allowing players to spend their critical hits to do the things that Mighty Deeds allows is a much easier and smoother way of handling this type of mechanic.

Quote from: The Butcher;927011Attack roll at a variable penalty, depending on how outrageous the stunt.

The problem with that in classic D&D that would cause a "I win" result at high levels especially when you throw +2 or better weapons in to the mix. I found the only way to counteract that is to allow the target to have a save against the result.

Quote from: estar;927038The problem with that in classic D&D that would cause a "I win" result at high levels especially when you throw +2 or better weapons in to the mix. I found the only way to counteract that is to allow the target to have a save against the result.

This is one of the main reasons I switched my D&D to-hit chart from level-vs-AC to level-vs-level. Turning the attack roll into a skill vs skill check which eliminates the justification for the saving throw.

Quote from: AsenRG;927026You can still try a stunt in DCC whether you're Warrior or not, or at least the rules don't prevent it.

Stunts are not a concept in the DCC RPG.

However if you want other characters to disarm, trip, try a precise shot, you could use their attack bonus as a basis for a deed dice for example if you are 6th level rogue with a +4 bonus to hit you can have him roll 1d4 as his deed dice.

Quote from: estar;927038The problem with that in classic D&D that would cause a "I win" result at high levels especially when you throw +2 or better weapons in to the mix. I found the only way to counteract that is to allow the target to have a save against the result.

Mighty Deeds allow a "save", in the form of opposed rolls, if the GM thinks it's appropriate:).

Quote from: estar;927041Stunts are not a concept in the DCC RPG.

However if you want other characters to disarm, trip, try a precise shot, you could use their attack bonus as a basis for a deed dice for example if you are 6th level rogue with a +4 bonus to hit you can have him roll 1d4 as his deed dice.

They're not detailed in DCC, right. But they're not forbidden, either, just as they weren't forbidden in older versions of D&D, so I see no reason to disallow them;).

Quote from: hedgehobbit;927040This is one of the main reasons I switched my D&D to-hit chart from level-vs-AC to level-vs-level. Turning the attack roll into a skill vs skill check which eliminates the justification for the saving throw.

My goal is to keep the changes I make as classic D&Dish a possible. Changing the to hit chart to level vs level mean you now have to add in armor as damage reduction, muck around with various monster abilities and spell effect, etc, etc.  And to be clear I am NOT ... NOT saying it wrong, bad, etc only that those are consequences of doing that. Consequences that I want to avoid with my own take.

Quote from: AsenRG;927047Mighty Deeds allow a "save", in the form of opposed rolls, if the GM thinks it's appropriate:).

Opposed rolls don't work the same as classic D&D style saves.

Quote from: AsenRG;927047They're not detailed in DCC, right. But they're not forbidden, either, just as they weren't forbidden in older versions of D&D, so I see no reason to disallow them;).

Sure, I always advocated that the focus should be on describing first, come up with the rules second. If what described is possible for the character to attempt then the chance of success should be assigned and the dice rolled. A wizard can disarm but obviously wouldn't be as good at it as a fighter.

However we are talking specific mechanics here. The DCC RPG has a number of actions wrapped up in the Mighty Deeds of Arms mechanics that classic D&D traditionally handed with ad-hoc rulings like disarm, trip, precision shots, etc. The general introduction to Mighty Deeds also including things like swinging from chandlers. My view if something like this is included in a RPG and it is your opinion as a referee that any character can do some or all the things covered by it, then it needs to be incorporated into your ruling so that that warrior is still best at doing those things.

I for once would agree that a wizard can try for a precise shot, a thief can attempt to disarm, the cleric can trip an opponent. What I would do make sure that the warrior is the best at using Mighty Deeds of Arms is to allow the other classes to do Might Deeds at Arms except they turn their to hit bonus into a deed dice the same way as it done with the warrior. So a 6th level Thief would roll 1d4 because they have +4 to hit.

All the other classes to hit bonuses are clearly inferior to the warrior's deed dice so this would preserve the warrior being the best.

Quote from: estar;927055Opposed rolls don't work the same as classic D&D style saves.

That's why I said "save". It can save you, but doesn't exactly work the same way.
Though nothing prevents you from just allowing a save to the creature. Let the elemental roll a Reflex or Fortitude save for that trip, set a target number, go.

QuoteSure, I always advocated that the focus should be on describing first, come up with the rules second. If what described is possible for the character to attempt then the chance of success should be assigned and the dice rolled. A wizard can disarm but obviously wouldn't be as good at it as a fighter.

We're in total agreement on that one.

QuoteHowever we are talking specific mechanics here. The DCC RPG has a number of actions wrapped up in the Mighty Deeds of Arms mechanics that classic D&D traditionally handed with ad-hoc rulings like disarm, trip, precision shots, etc. The general introduction to Mighty Deeds also including things like swinging from chandlers. My view if something like this is included in a RPG and it is your opinion as a referee that any character can do some or all the things covered by it, then it needs to be incorporated into your ruling so that that warrior is still best at doing those things.

But assuming the "attack at penalty" solution, he or she still is, and very much so! Why?

First, the warrior attacks at his full bonus (or at least with a 3+stats bonus, if he's to do a Mighty Deed). He needs to hit the same AC to succeed. Who has better odds for tripping an enemy, myy 1st level DCC Warrior Jacqueline, with her total of +2*, or the thief of the same level with his total of -1 to attack, after accounting for the penalty and for him having higher strength?
So the warrior is more likely to succeed.
Second, only warriors get to do the trip and deal their normal damage. The other classes get to pick whether to go for a risky manoeuvre and potentially waste a round, or to just hit. Warriors get to attack and do extra stuff.

Bottomline: fighting a DCC Warrior is a horrific experience which ends quickly.

*My Warrior in a DCC game had a Strength of 6, so she was attacking at penalty. Despite that, she was still considered a terror by the other players, who came to call her "the Chaotic Jacqueline", although she is Neutral in alignment...because whereever she went, chaos always ensued. And somehow, she always ended up surviving it. Including when she faced something like a regenerating ogre after being pushed in a corner.
We had to work quite a bit for destroying that thing, BTW. Everybody else assumed it was a troll, and were surprised when fire didn't work.

QuoteI for once would agree that a wizard can try for a precise shot, a thief can attempt to disarm, the cleric can trip an opponent. What I would do make sure that the warrior is the best at using Mighty Deeds of Arms is to allow the other classes to do Might Deeds at Arms except they turn their to hit bonus into a deed dice the same way as it done with the warrior. So a 6th level Thief would roll 1d4 because they have +4 to hit.

All the other classes to hit bonuses are clearly inferior to the warrior's deed dice so this would preserve the warrior being the best.

Yeah, and I just wouldn't use them to use the same mechanic. This is a mechanical exception for Warriors only.
Not using the same mechanic preserves the Warrior's chances of success being higher, and allow the specialist to achieve the same things faster. That's working as intended, if you ask me;).