I was watching the first episode of Stranger Things with my daughter, and was really struck by an early scene where the young heroes were playing a game of D&D. They were kids, and violating every rule of good play - they were yelling each other out of character, the DM had no control over the table, and they couldn't even keep the dice off of the floor.

Pretty standard D&D from my memory! But what stood out the most was what I'd consider to be a quintessential D&D as a game moment - one player's character needing to decide to play it safe and cast a healing spell or go big and cast fireball. Those are the immersive moments to me, when the game has a stressful decisions and mechanic that approximates what they character would feel. I read a bit of the exchange between The Pundit and Matt Mercer, and I'm not sure if I ever played at the level either were describing (also, I got the impression Matt thinks he plays precisely the type of game TheRpgPundit was describing).

Maybe I'm missing something, but more than history vs story, the way modern 5E is typically played, vs what I think the OSR seems to be trying to do, is all about these decision points. I'll admit this is colored by my interest in wargames, but beyond all the grognardness, when you have a system where you need to care about how many arrows are left in your quiver, or presents life or death decisions that could mean your character doesn't make it to the next session, you're more immersed.

I'm starting to play rpg's with my kids, and want I most want to provide them are these types of situations, where they have to make interesting decisions as their character. I want to present unique situations to find answers to with limited resources, be it weapons or spells or what have you.Am I off base with this approach?

I think your instincts are in the right place, but tracking individual arrows is the wrong way to do it.

When you're focused on updating your character sheet and/or playing 'logistics and Dragons' you're not immersed.  Making decisions about using your abilities, spending resources including actions - those are meaningful.

In the game we play, the Berserker has a rage ability, but it requires a Standard Action to activate, and it gives them +1d6/2 levels damage (+1d6 at 1st, +2d6 at 3rd, etc).  That's a pretty significant ability, especially because it applies PER HIT and things like two-weapon fighting/cleave allow them to hit multiple times.  But activating the ability means that they can't attack in the first round.  Giving up the first round of actions versus extra damage in every other round is a meaningful choice that they make all the time - as a result they are ALWAYS evaluating the action - is this going to become a fight?  Should I rage now?  Is this fight going to be fast enough that I shouldn't bother? 

We've tried to build those types of decisions into every class.  They all have reasons to think about position and they all have abilities that can be used reactively in certain cases.  When you're thinking about the game from the perspective of your character and you're trying to use their abilities to the best of YOUR ABILITY, that's immersion. 

Quote from: Zaph on September 03, 2022, 09:11:57 PM

I'm starting to play rpg's with my kids, and want I most want to provide them are these types of situations, where they have to make interesting decisions as their character. I want to present unique situations to find answers to with limited resources, be it weapons or spells or what have you. Am I off base with this approach?

You might be with kids, at least depending on how old they are. My experience is that kids generally want to have cool characters that do cool things. They tend to also hate book-keeping, and their imaginations are more active, so they don't really need much other than an exciting adventure to get immersed.

Personally, I really like that kind of minutia. I do think the daily life stuff such as worrying about your supplies and maintaining your equipment brings the game to life, but I had to come around to that opinion after years of playing. In my current game, I'm trying to even keep my players tracking what kinds of food they have. I won't lie though, its a battle. And my players are mostly in their 40s and 50s, with decades of playing under their belts.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:57:05 PM
I think your instincts are in the right place, but tracking individual arrows is the wrong way to do it.

When you're focused on updating your character sheet and/or playing 'logistics and Dragons' you're not immersed.  Making decisions about using your abilities, spending resources including actions - those are meaningful.

In the game we play, the Berserker has a rage ability, but it requires a Standard Action to activate, and it gives them +1d6/2 levels damage (+1d6 at 1st, +2d6 at 3rd, etc).  That's a pretty significant ability, especially because it applies PER HIT and things like two-weapon fighting/cleave allow them to hit multiple times.  But activating the ability means that they can't attack in the first round.  Giving up the first round of actions versus extra damage in every other round is a meaningful choice that they make all the time - as a result they are ALWAYS evaluating the action - is this going to become a fight?  Should I rage now?  Is this fight going to be fast enough that I shouldn't bother? 

We've tried to build those types of decisions into every class.  They all have reasons to think about position and they all have abilities that can be used reactively in certain cases.  When you're thinking about the game from the perspective of your character and you're trying to use their abilities to the best of YOUR ABILITY, that's immersion.

Yeah, the arrow thing is probably not the best example, your berserker use case is really the kind of thing I'm talking about. It reflects a plausible in game reality that is modeled by the player's decisions. It seems that with 5E, you can play that way through about level 7, then after that the D&D they're playing is Deities and Demigods, where there doesn't appear to be any economy of action.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 03, 2022, 10:07:37 PM

Quote from: Zaph on September 03, 2022, 09:11:57 PM

I'm starting to play rpg's with my kids, and want I most want to provide them are these types of situations, where they have to make interesting decisions as their character. I want to present unique situations to find answers to with limited resources, be it weapons or spells or what have you. Am I off base with this approach?

You might be with kids, at least depending on how old they are. My experience is that kids generally want to have cool characters that do cool things. They tend to also hate book-keeping, and their imaginations are more active, so they don't really need much other than an exciting adventure to get immersed.

Personally, I really like that kind of minutia. I do think the daily life stuff such as worrying about your supplies and maintaining your equipment brings the game to life, but I had to come around to that opinion after years of playing. In my current game, I'm trying to even keep my players tracking what kinds of food they have. I won't lie though, its a battle. And my players are mostly in their 40s and 50s, with decades of playing under their belts.

Agreed, I won't lead with minutiae with the kids. I just want the coolness of the characters to feel earned, not just they easily attacked and won. Strangely enough, I was thinking of picking up the new Power Rangers rpg for them, because it would help prevent me from bringing in my own baggage.

The beauty of tabletop RPGs is that they are truly only limited by your (DM & players, not you literally) imagination and mental horsepower. "Accountant" gaming is not for me. There are manifold ways to create high tension, immersion, and gut wrenching choices that are totally unrelated to mechanical limitations.

There DOES need to be limitations however or the game turns into a free for all, but the best DMs will have a wide arsenal in their toolkit to achieve these outcomes. I've run very low level games where every arrow counts, every gold piece should be considered, along with every spell. That is one way to do it sure. I've also run games that are absurdly high level and in 1st edition this included the absolutely bonkers Immortal Rules set where you had characters who were literal demi-gods. I ran some of the most amazing games using that loosely defined rule-set and homebrewing to fill in the gaps.

Many DMs wither under fire at this level of play because the scope is just too large for them to control. But you can create significant tension even when your players may control entire kingdoms, armies, or even planets because you have no limits whatsoever whereas they do even if they are insanely high. The vast majority of players also do not enjoy running up at these extreme power levels or simply cannot function well there but for those that do, you can create some astonishingly memorable experiences in spite of their over the top power and nearly limitless resource.

I've found that people who play superhero games like Champions or Sci-Fi settings tend to thrive far better at this level than the D&D / Fantasy only crowd. I got off on a bit of a tangent there but to bring the point back in focus immersion via mechanics is a single tool in my box, and not even close to the best one. If it works for your table then I'd say lean into it but many players do not like being boxed in if the restrictions get too severe.

Oh I'm certainly open to having more tools in my toolbox, for adventure oriented games, what are your other choices? My kids play more archetypal class types rather than fully drawn out characters (they're young and learning), so I'm focusing on more straightforward reliable options, but I posed this to learn more and improve.

Who says they're violating rules of good play?  There is no right way to play.  The only rule is to have fun and only play with those who enjoy playing the same way.

I've played off and on over the past almost 40 years. First was BECMI and AD&D 1e with friends from middle and high school. There was a lot of emphasis on "getting it right." "No, the rules say it's a +1 on the weapon vs armor type chart "

Next was "D&D" with classmates at Nuke Prototype where it was almost completely theater of the mind ("You guys are jolted awake during the bus ride out to the site. But not by the usual guards checking badges at the entrance, where you know you can get another 10 minutes of sleep on the rest of the ride between the main entrance to the NRF parking lot. You are instead jolted awake by a loud explosion. There is a tear in the fabric of reality. You see a man on a coal-black stallion snorting fire standing on top of the rubble where the guard shack used to be. What do you do?"

Next was AD&D 2e with other guys on my boat (always when inport, never at sea) where most of the time was spent drinking, intermixed with playing at the gaming club at the local uni.

Never played in college.

3e at game stores as RPGA events.

Then 3.5, PF1e, and 5e with my current group where we might spend an hour sitting around just talking man shit, followed by arguing out of character as dice fall on the floor. 

However you want to play is the right way, if you can find a group that wants to play the same way.

What you have described is called Opportunity Cost. This kind of play is hard to find because most RPGs are not designed to create high opportunity cost situations. And by this I mean 4E D&D is basically the system of choice, but it is severely hampered by being a WotC D&D game.

High opportunity cost games are not popular because mainstream gamers find them difficult to play.

Quote from: Zaph on September 04, 2022, 12:09:02 AM
Oh I'm certainly open to having more tools in my toolbox, for adventure oriented games, what are your other choices? My kids play more archetypal class types rather than fully drawn out characters (they're young and learning), so I'm focusing on more straightforward reliable options, but I posed this to learn more and improve.

  How old are they?  I think D&D is decent if that is your choice, but when my kids were younger (5 and savage worlds was pretty easy for them to grasp and some of the cool stuff people can do is built into the game.  Regarding book keeping on arrows...I think that will depend on your kids.  My daughter was always tracking resources and ammo and such, my son...charged in and went into a berserker rage at first opportunity every time (heck he still does this in a fantasy setting game no matter the rule set we use).  So I think that stuff can be put in or put in the background depending on what they are like and enjoy. 

Quote from: Fheredin on September 04, 2022, 02:05:50 PM
What you have described is called Opportunity Cost. This kind of play is hard to find because most RPGs are not designed to create high opportunity cost situations. And by this I mean 4E D&D is basically the system of choice, but it is severely hampered by being a WotC D&D game.

High opportunity cost games are not popular because mainstream gamers find them difficult to play.

I've heard that about 4E, is it worth picking up for rules for? And I had heard the PF 2e tried to build on 4e D&D, do you happen to know if that's the case? And yes, gaming in general is central to me about opportunity cost - that's what puts the g in rpg for me. Otherwise it's an improv/creative writing exercise.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 04, 2022, 10:28:59 AM
Who says they're violating rules of good play?  There is no right way to play.  The only rule is to have fun and only play with those who enjoy playing the same way.

I've played off and on over the past almost 40 years. First was BECMI and AD&D 1e with friends from middle and high school. There was a lot of emphasis on "getting it right." "No, the rules say it's a +1 on the weapon vs armor type chart "

Next was "D&D" with classmates at Nuke Prototype where it was almost completely theater of the mind ("You guys are jolted awake during the bus ride out to the site. But not by the usual guards checking badges at the entrance, where you know you can get another 10 minutes of sleep on the rest of the ride between the main entrance to the NRF parking lot. You are instead jolted awake by a loud explosion. There is a tear in the fabric of reality. You see a man on a coal-black stallion snorting fire standing on top of the rubble where the guard shack used to be. What do you do?"

Next was AD&D 2e with other guys on my boat (always when inport, never at sea) where most of the time was spent drinking, intermixed with playing at the gaming club at the local uni.

Never played in college.

3e at game stores as RPGA events.

Then 3.5, PF1e, and 5e with my current group where we might spend an hour sitting around just talking man shit, followed by arguing out of character as dice fall on the floor. 

However you want to play is the right way, if you can find a group that wants to play the same way.

Hey I'm fine with out of character table talk, chasing dice that ran wild and all that. I know there are some deadly serious DM's and players out there, and I still think they'd recognize the tension that can come out of even those looser games.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:54:41 PM

Quote from: Zaph on September 04, 2022, 12:09:02 AM
Oh I'm certainly open to having more tools in my toolbox, for adventure oriented games, what are your other choices? My kids play more archetypal class types rather than fully drawn out characters (they're young and learning), so I'm focusing on more straightforward reliable options, but I posed this to learn more and improve.

  How old are they?  I think D&D is decent if that is your choice, but when my kids were younger (5 and savage worlds was pretty easy for them to grasp and some of the cool stuff people can do is built into the game.  Regarding book keeping on arrows...I think that will depend on your kids.  My daughter was always tracking resources and ammo and such, my son...charged in and went into a berserker rage at first opportunity every time (heck he still does this in a fantasy setting game no matter the rule set we use).  So I think that stuff can be put in or put in the background depending on what they are like and enjoy.

I really need to check out Savage Worlds, is a "universal" ruleset right - lots of potential settings? People have recommended that Index Card RPG, Forbidden Lands (fantasy specific), and the Astonishing Game Engine as rulesets that have lower barriers of entry, particularly for younger players.

Quote from: Zaph on September 04, 2022, 03:27:08 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on September 04, 2022, 02:05:50 PM
What you have described is called Opportunity Cost. This kind of play is hard to find because most RPGs are not designed to create high opportunity cost situations. And by this I mean 4E D&D is basically the system of choice, but it is severely hampered by being a WotC D&D game.

High opportunity cost games are not popular because mainstream gamers find them difficult to play.

I've heard that about 4E, is it worth picking up for rules for? And I had heard the PF 2e tried to build on 4e D&D, do you happen to know if that's the case? And yes, gaming in general is central to me about opportunity cost - that's what puts the g in rpg for me. Otherwise it's an improv/creative writing exercise.

This reply says much about the style of game you enjoy so 4E D&D may be the way to go here. I'd be more than happy to sell you unused boxed set at a MASSIVE discount as its a glorified paperweight, I never ran a single game with it. For your style of game and given the youngish target audience it may be a viable option.

We have nearly opposite styles I'd say as I definitely lean towards improv vs. hard and fast rules. I cannot tell you anything about that time we almost ran out of pitch for flaming arrows, or the time I only had a single 6th level spell left. But I can tell you about countless times that a very impactful NPC made a very memorable experience for me. Or that a player really diving into their character brought joy to the table.

I'll give you a real world example. The guy was an elven ranger who more thought of himself as a paladin as he was a bit of a zealot. He would run screaming into battle "For Meilikki!" (Forgotten Realms, elven forest goddess). This became a running joke soon and became a battle cry for even inane stuff like a tavern drinking game or other very inappropriate situations. It was improv theater, a fun and memorable character was emblazoned in the mind of every player in that game. I cannot tell you a single thing about the mechanical stats of that character other than 'elven ranger' nor would I wish to. I have dozens of stand-out memories like this. I will caveat this by saying there HAVE been times also I've been in sticky situations that were mechanics related but they are the minority of my gaming memories over many decades vs. character interactions or well delivered narrative/plot.

Again, some people don't enjoy this style of play and probably many on this board because OSR style rules definitely lean in on the hard game stats and number-crunching but those are background noise to me. They are important in so far as all worlds need to have rules to keep the suspension of disbelief going and coherence of a rules based world. I also DO like the advancement and power fantasy that RPGs provide so I'm not just an 'improv' type play guy, though there are systems that support that. It is just that well presented roleplaying and character immersion always beat the progression of stats, counting of widgets, etc. in my own style of play / DMing.

Quote from: Zaph on September 04, 2022, 03:27:08 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on September 04, 2022, 02:05:50 PM
What you have described is called Opportunity Cost. This kind of play is hard to find because most RPGs are not designed to create high opportunity cost situations. And by this I mean 4E D&D is basically the system of choice, but it is severely hampered by being a WotC D&D game.

High opportunity cost games are not popular because mainstream gamers find them difficult to play.

I've heard that about 4E, is it worth picking up for rules for? And I had heard the PF 2e tried to build on 4e D&D, do you happen to know if that's the case? And yes, gaming in general is central to me about opportunity cost - that's what puts the g in rpg for me. Otherwise it's an improv/creative writing exercise.

Well, 4E isn't that great at it, either.  The at will/ encounter/ daily power design which creates a lot of opportunity cost is also diluted by D&D hitpoint bloat and generally slow play. I think you'll probably enjoy it, but it definitely has its flaws.

Oggsmash's recomendation of Savage Worlds is interesting. Generally I would say it's a low opportunity cost system because of it's fast hip-shooting design. but it's easy to homebrew. The way I personally would go about making a good high opportunity cost system is to take Savage Worlds and convert some 4E powers to work in it. And to prevent having to redo the whole book (much of which is not mechanically compatible because of different mechanics) I think I would have players draft powers during character creation rather than picking them up from a book.

It wouldn't be balanced, but Savage Worlds is not a tightly balanced game to begin with. The dealbreaker for you is probably that homebrewing would require mature players who know how to handle getting a power nerfed for the good of the party.

The bottom line is that it depends on your kids' attention spans. If they're ADD, 4Es slow combat will break them and brewing on top of Savage Worlds is probably the only viable option. But that requires kinda mature kids who know that you're making things up and going to make mistakes.