Let's say you were charged to make a whole new mystara-type setting: that is a setting that has a huge hodgepodge of countries, which are all loosely based on real world cultures and historical periods (some of which can be allowed to have some stylistic or supernatural twist).
The people who are paying you a fortune to do this tell you that you can pick anything you want, and they want a dozen or so of these nations for their core book. And just like Mystara, they don't care if the cultures themselves are built on actual historical accuracy or based more on popular mythology or popular stereotypes, and they don't really care if you have vastly disparate countries right next to each other.
So which countries would you make?
If I made a Mystara, nobody would buy it. :D
-clash
I did actually.
Ancient Greece
Pre-Norman Invasion England
Pre-Roman Celts
Biblical Ethiopia (Sheba)
Pre-Roman Egypt
Sumeria
Pre-Islamic Persia
Pre-Islamic Arabia
Mound Builders of North America
Mash up of Mesoamerican tribes
Inca
Declining Rome
Byzantine Empire
Musketeer era (the capital) and Charlemagne era (more the outskirts) France, and in between Averoigne
And places on the map for Ancient China, Medieval Japan, and pre-Invasion India
Reconstructionist-Era Britain
18th century Scotland
Feudal Japan
World War I Germany
Napoleonic France
Pre-Tzarist Russia
Crusades-era Spain and Romania
Oge's Revolt-era Haiti
Shang Dynasty China
Exactly like the actual Mystara, minus the Orcs of Thaar.
Not sure what countries, but it would be a hollow world, with that concept backed into the setting from the beginning.
Under this definition, every D&D setting I've ever built was a Mystara.
For a long time I struggled to mantaining a semblance of verisimilitude by dropping cultures on the map following the vague outlines of historical borders, e.g. the faux-Arabs might share a border with the not-Greeks or phony-Nubians, but never with the ersatz-Norse or the pretend-Scotsmen.
Because Birthright's Cerilia was also a huge influence on me I defaulted to five or six ethnic and cultural groups, four of which were recurring:
- A pretty straightforward calque of Viking-era Scandinavia and the Danelaw
- A High Medieval culture with C14 military technology (full plate), the chivalrous ethos of C12 Languedoc and Welsh names (for the Arthurian feel, natch)
- A league of seagoing, mercantile city-states a la Late Medieval Northern Italy
- A confederacy of horse-riding steppes nomads with Slavic names and a sprinkling of Slavic culture
- Another straightforward calque, this time of the Arab world circa C8, plus 1001 Nights fantasy elements.
Later, I'd break down each of these in as many domains as necessary, with miscigenation, pidgins, invasions and so on. I'd add a few extra cultures, e.g. a Persian equivalent warring with my faux-Arabs and Bedouin-like desert tribes caught in the middle, depending on the campaign's focus.
Nowadays, for easy gonzo, I'd just take a page from GURPS Banestorm and AS&SH, and conceive the setting as a patchwork, populated by human groups "sampled" across spacetime (probably a large-scale mad science experiment by some unfathomable alien intelligence) so you could have Romans and Mongols and Age of Sail pirates and 1950s space people with silver suits and death rays all next door to each other.
Points of Lights and Blackmarsh are pretty much the direction I would go.
Someone already did. They called it Greyhawk, Eberron and The Forgotten Realms...
Quote from: RPGPundit;839424The people who are paying you a fortune to do this
The idea of doing a new Mystara would bore me to death, but since I would be paid a fortune, I would do it best I can, trying to imagine what would please people and what would be required. So I would have:
1) Charlemagne's empire with 15th century medieval culture, technology and development. This empire is falling apart as it must be split between three heirs, and the barbarians on the borders are becoming threatening.
2) Vikings to the North, led by a bloodthirsty god reminding of Crom + Odin.
3) Celtic-like elves on an island to the west.
4) Wilderness and dark forests to the east (i.e. Russia) inhabited by slavic dwarves under the mountains.
5) Remains of a former empire, based on Rome and Byzance, that devolved into a city-state. Incredible splendors from the past threatened on each sides.
6) Mysterious Asians coming in from the East, in fact simply the Scarlet Brotherhood, with inflitrators and spies.*
7) Orders and organizations based on Knights of Solamnia and Order of High Sorcery are also included, though the latter is mixed with the oragnization of mages in Ars Magica.
8) A few things directly inspired by Middle-Earth would also be added.
9) There would be a major monotheitic religion, but also innumerable petty gods with discreet coven and cults, so the book Petty Gods can be used in this setting.
(*: Of course this would led me to be forever insulted and defamed by self-proclaimed inquisitors who are reading fictional RPG settings just to find racists they would want to burn at the stake, if only the law authorized them to do it.)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;839473Someone already did. They called it Greyhawk, Eberron and The Forgotten Realms...
Really? What were the role-models for the Theocracy of the Pale, Hold of the Sea Princes, or Ket?
The Mystara model is very alive in German gaming.
Magira and Midgard, the two settings of Germany's first RPG, Midgard, have very "dry", close copies of Earth cultures. The tech/magic level and "adventurousness" of the setting is Hârn-like.
In Aventuria, the setting of The Dark Eye, the mix of Earth cultures is slightly more fantastical, and set at a later date (early Renaissance-ish). Since TDE was designed by the translators of Mentzer D&D it seems that they used proto-Mystara ("The Known World") as their model, and one criticism towards Aventuria was the size of the continent and the unrealistic closeness of all those cultures. But the setting got an extremely detailed backstory of how those cultures interact and the mix today is far from the hodgepodge that is Mystara.
When the TDE chief editorial crew got "ousted" a few years ago they got together and created a new mainstream fantasy RPG to rival their own Aventuria. Splittermond and its setting Lorakis were published last year. Again, Lorakis follows the Earth culture recipe of Mystara, but the writers had learned from Aventuria and infused a good deal of (high) fantasy elements ("moon portals" like in RM's Shadow World or SovStone's Loerem, Wolfen like in Palladium) to set their creation apart. But the cultures are still recognizable as Vikings, Arabs, etc.
In all those games the location of those cultures is more or less like on Earth, so it's not a Mystaran random distribution. (That's what killed the Known World for me from the start, and I started with BECMI. The good thing was that this schooled me to invent my own settings, and I never looked back to official ones.)
The only pseudo Europe that liked enough to thinking about using it was Legend from Dragon Warriors.
To answer the OP question, I would't.
I wouldn't mix and match lots of Earth cultures in a Mystaran way.
If I wanted to use recognizable Earth cultures I'd use Mythic Europe (of Ars Magica) or invent a Fantasy Europe (Avalon Hill's RQ III) but in gonzo mode with all clichés turned up to 11.
Or use Raedwald.
Or I would pick one culture setting (from a literary source?) and start from there, like London from Chris Wooding's Alaizabel Cray, or The Golden Compass, slowly turning it into my own.
A miniature version of 18th century Europe going through their own version of the War of the Spanish Succession. I know not everyone loves black powder weapons in their fantasy, but I think it can work.
On the north east border of this land there would be a small Transylvania type province. And to the south a temperate land full of Italian city states where inventive wizards, mercenary lords and city princes are trying to figure out how to forge a lasting peace before the war to the north sucks some of them in.
Quote from: flyingmice;839437If I made a Mystara, nobody would buy it. :D
-clash
I might. The WWI dogfight game was good.
I got this idea from a friend of mine.
I think it would be interesting to try to work out a fantasy setting inspired by the religious beliefs of criminal organizations.
Santa Muerte; a skeletal figure in a wedding dress holding a scythe and adored with jewelry. Can be traced back to Mictlantecuhitli and Christian personification of death. Has worshipers among the Mexican drug cartels.
Jesus Malverde; a 20th century Mexican bandit inspired by Robin Hood. Venerated as an unofficial saint. Families maintain shrines to this mustacioed figure in their homes and give offerings of photographs, corncobs, shrimp, guns, and prosthetic limbs. Has followers among the drug cartels.
Knights Templar Cartel; a "narco-Evangelist" group modeled after religious crusaders in Jerusalem. Rituals utilize metal helmets and hooded robes. Some claim that the group practices blood rites and cannibalism.
The Kingston Group; a clan of Mormon fundamentalists that maintains a public front as a cover for gambling, slavery, polygamny, child abuse, fraudulent welfare claims, etc.
Master Handan; a god of wealth revered among crime syndicates in Taitung. Religious rituals include throwing firecrackers at a shirtless man.
Guan Yu; a red faced warrior with a halberd. Patron god of both policemen and criminal triads.
Nigerian Confraternities
Santos Malandros
Palos Mayombe
Prison Pentacostalism
What would it look like if you built a Mystara-type setting using these groups as the inspiration for your world's cultures?
It would be a lurid world with grim undertones full of warrior cultures, death cults, bandits, pirates, smugglers, and slavers. Perfect for D&D.
Just this past week I've been reading through Paizo's Golarian - Inner Sea world book, well done I think.
If I was paid big bucks to write up a new world I'd try to find some hook that was different, preferably unique, that would make the world interesting to play through. I'm not certain what though. Maybe one with no continents but lots of islands. Or one where the gods are actively visible and walking around among the mortals daily. In any case, yeah I'd have a variety of places with evil groups that need defeating. Maybe not everything under the sun but a lot. And I'd provide some "blank areas" where anyone can place whatever they want.
Romans
Hoplite Greeks
Persians
Middle Ages Generic English Kingdom
Late Middle Ages Germany
Poland (when it was the bad-ass conqueror of eastern Europe)
Vikings
Goblin Empire
Elf Forest
Dwarf Mountains
Egypt
Arabs in the desert
Samurai Japan
Wuxia China
Old School India (Arrows of Indra maybe just dropped right in)
American Indians (Iroquois, Cheyenne, Apache)
Throw in some Spears of the Dawn as well.
I posted this instant classic (http://eotbeholder.deviantart.com/art/The-Only-Fantasy-World-Map-245738593) a year or so ago. Even proposed a collectively written gazetteer (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29288) for it.
Every time I catch myself about to do that (create a big Mystara/everything fantasy world) I stop;
it means I've either lost focus on what I thought was important about the campaign I was originally trying for OR I remember I don't need to do it anyway, I just use Howard's Hyborian Age (or any one of the countless other similar but more fantasy/D&D themed creations).
I expect I'd hijack it into the weird pulp thirties.
Albion Eternal "Magna Carta" what's this rubbish then?
The United States of Pnumerica where innovation and ambition rule
Eternal Prussia where the Nazis never came to power
The Empire of France ruled by Napoleon the XVI
Russia Inviolate ruled by the Rominov Csars
The Han Asian Empire complete with Dragon Kungful Special Forces
The Mayan and Aztec Empires of central and South America
The Indian Commonwealth who are generally above this sort of thing
So our core theme here is essentially aristocrats verses democrats with poor little Pnumerica all alone against the world. Sure India is enlightened but they're also rabidly non-interventionist. Canada is a brutal, untamed wilderness full of kill seals and bears fit only for the bold red-coated mounted police. With the border a good five hundred miles north of the 49th parallel.
Quote from: Turanil;8394797) Orders and organizations based on Knights of Solamnia and Order of High Sorcery are also included, though the latter is mixed with the oragnization of mages in Ars Magica.
The Ars Magica bit is actually a great idea, though I like my wizards rare enough that would make any Order of Hermes-like overarching organization very loosely knit, with rare few covenants and no Houses to speak of (which would also make perfect sense given the inexistence of a
parma magica). If anything, a wide-raging brethren of wizards would probably more closely resemble the Order's antecessor, the Cult of Mercury. I'm always somewhat vexed with how to handle a society's response to arcane magic.
Can't comment on the High Sorcery influence, though, which I find a tad more "high fantasy" (with its color-coded robes) than I usually like my D&D.
Quote from: zarathustra;839599Every time I catch myself about to do that (create a big Mystara/everything fantasy world) I stop;
it means I've either lost focus on what I thought was important about the campaign I was originally trying for OR I remember I don't need to do it anyway, I just use Howard's Hyborian Age (or any one of the countless other similar but more fantasy/D&D themed creations).
The Hyborian Age is, to the best of my knowledge, the original fantasy ersatz-Earth. REH deliberately set it up so he could have Conan adventuring in Ancient Egypt in this issue of Weird Tales, and in Medieval Western Europe the next. I remember reading somewhere that HPL was famously pissed at his "appropriation" of archaic toponyms (e.g. Asshur, Khitai) for his make-believe countries.
Quote from: David Johansen;839602I expect I'd hijack it into the weird pulp thirties.
Albion Eternal "Magna Carta" what's this rubbish then?
The United States of Pnumerica where innovation and ambition rule
Eternal Prussia where the Nazis never came to power
The Empire of France ruled by Napoleon the XVI
Russia Inviolate ruled by the Rominov Csars
The Han Asian Empire complete with Dragon Kungful Special Forces
The Mayan and Aztec Empires of central and South America
The Indian Commonwealth who are generally above this sort of thing
So our core theme here is essentially aristocrats verses democrats with poor little Pnumerica all alone against the world. Sure India is enlightened but they're also rabidly non-interventionist. Canada is a brutal, untamed wilderness full of kill seals and bears fit only for the bold red-coated mounted police. With the border a good five hundred miles north of the 49th parallel.
Sounds like a neat Mystara-meets-Eberron sort of game. How's the tech level overall? With most of your real world analogues at early to mid Industrial Revolution level, I'm thinking flintlocks, ironclads and maybe even the odd airship.
One of the biggest things I would do is put a 1,000 mile crater right in the center and fill it with desert and plop the 'warriors from Mars' supplement down. Imagine a ring of the Himalayas separating both worlds, but littered with passages and Dungeons that connect one to the other. Not enough S&S in most worlds I have seen.
EDIT: And only the strongest Dragons guard the passages.
Quote from: The Butcher;839669Sounds like a neat Mystara-meets-Eberron sort of game. How's the tech level overall? With most of your real world analogues at early to mid Industrial Revolution level, I'm thinking flintlocks, ironclads and maybe even the odd airship.
Oh it's a solid TL 5 with tommy guns, automobiles, and biplanes. I actually ran it as a world where the Illuminati had transplanted their ideal cultures in a GURPS Space campaign.
The statue of liberty has a pair of 45 automatics pointed towards Europe.
Quote from: danbuter;839536Romans
Hoplite Greeks
Persians
Middle Ages Generic English Kingdom
Late Middle Ages Germany
Poland (when it was the bad-ass conqueror of eastern Europe)
Vikings
Goblin Empire
Elf Forest
Dwarf Mountains
Egypt
Arabs in the desert
Samurai Japan
Wuxia China
Old School India (Arrows of Indra maybe just dropped right in)
American Indians (Iroquois, Cheyenne, Apache)
That sounds a lot like the stuff in the Forgotten Realms.
So my question is thus: What DID Mystara bring to the 'settings' table that all the other published settings to date did not? Personally, I can't think of a thing unique to Mystara that makes it 'stand out'.
Don't know yet, but I do know I'll be making space for Hollow World's Blacklore Elves. They live in skyscrapers, fly around in floating cars, have robot servants, fight with laser guns, be very fashion conscious, and tend to find nature icky. I'm going to have tween mall-rats with valley girl accents go on adventures with the likes of Conan the Barbarian.
Hmmmmm:
-Powered up circumpolar polities in the cold lands, I love Vikings as much as the next guy but something new would be good the I can't believe it's not Scandinavia can be Golden Age Sweden (so much awesome that gets ignored in gaming) with post-Viking Age hardscrabble feud-ridden insular Iceland in the rural areas.
-Koreans with Chinese influence ripped out and bits of Mongol and circumpolar culture stuck into the gaping holes.
-Quechua up in the mountains with bits of Tibet glommed on for the creepy necromancer dudes, their history is so much better suited to "necromancers everywhere!" than the standard Egypt.
-Polynesians in the oceans.
-Medieval Ethiopia with bits of Mansa Musa, Prester John legends, Book of Enoch and Byzantium glommed on.
-Gothed up Arthurian England.
-From that blog with the cannibal birds that Zak S linked, PNW guys need to be in somewhere.
Hmm.. now that I think about it, Imperial China is one of the big cultural references missing from Mystara. There's the Khanates but that's Mongols rather than China, and there's a couple of Indian-type places, and even the cat-person Samurai Japanese place, but I can't remember there being a China...
Quote from: RPGPundit;840078Hmm.. now that I think about it, Imperial China is one of the big cultural references missing from Mystara. There's the Khanates but that's Mongols rather than China, and there's a couple of Indian-type places, and even the cat-person Samurai Japanese place, but I can't remember there being a China...
I'd have to find the Princess Ark article to be sure, but I think a China culture was part of the same invisible moon that the Japanese cat culture was from.
Edit: you're right. The invisible moon is split between Myoshima, Rajahstan, and some some SE Asia types. Why they needed Rajahstan when they already have Sind in the Western Known World is beyond me.
Quote from: Paraguybrarian;840313I'd have to find the Princess Ark article to be sure, but I think a China culture was part of the same invisible moon that the Japanese cat culture was from.
Edit: you're right. The invisible moon is split between Myoshima, Rajahstan, and some some SE Asia types. Why they needed Rajahstan when they already have Sind in the Western Known World is beyond me.
Yeah, there's no (detailed) Imperial Chinese culture on Mystara. Which is kind of crazy given how much potential there is there. But I guess in the 80s everyone was more into Japan.