Quote from: Skarg;1037733For example, one friend/GM in the 1980's complained "many players want to play Elves just because [in most systems] Elves are just like 'humans plus' [various powers/bonuses]" (not a racism complaint BTW, but a "this is dumb/boring/uninteresting" complaint) so he had them not exist in his campaigns, and/or ran human-only game settings.

And yet when the subject of level limits for elves in D&D comes up, most people screech like anime schoolgirls...

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037582SJW: We want D&D to be more inclusive!
POC: Great!  
SJW: BTW, orcs are black people!
POC: Uh...
SJW: And most every campaign involves killing orcs. Or goblins, who are Mexicans.
POC: Uh...
SJW: But we fixed it because elves are transgender now. That's why the black elves hate them.
POC: [flees the freakshow]

Way to spoil the premise of my Blue Rose campaign.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1037742And yet when the subject of level limits for elves in D&D comes up, most people screech like anime schoolgirls...

Try suggesting play in a low magic or historical game.

Quote from: Skarg;1037733For example, one friend/GM in the 1980's complained "many players want to play Elves just because [in most systems] Elves are just like 'humans plus' [various powers/bonuses]" (not a racism complaint BTW, but a "this is dumb/boring/uninteresting" complaint) so he had them not exist in his campaigns, and/or ran human-only game settings.

He might have been projecting.  I know a girl I used to game with who only played Elves because, in her words, they were pretty and she's not.  The bonuses they got were just gravy half the time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1037742And yet when the subject of level limits for elves in D&D comes up, most people screech like anime schoolgirls...

That's how you identified power gamers back in the day.  Real Gamers played Humans!  (That's a joke, they played Dwarves.)

As DM I got rid of all level limits simply because I had this mental block unable to reconcile the idea of a long lived race somehow got capped sooner than a human.  And in AD&D 2e, most races had class limits anyway, Dwarves couldn't be Magic-Users, or Rangers, if I remember correctly, that was punishment enough in my mind.

YMWV.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037754As DM I got rid of all level limits simply because I had this mental block unable to reconcile the idea of a long lived race somehow got capped sooner than a human.  And in AD&D 2e, most races had class limits anyway, Dwarves couldn't be Magic-Users, or Rangers, if I remember correctly, that was punishment enough in my mind.

YMWV.

My group pretty much ignored this, though only a handful of characters ever got above level 15. The main DM didn't give out XP for kills or treasure. None of us handed it out for treasure. You would just level when he thought it was a good time to do so. I had a lot of characters that never got above level 12 and it was fine. So ignoring the level limits for races was moot because it didn't really matter. Sure you didn't level fast but sometimes the loot more than made up for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037754As DM I got rid of all level limits simply because I had this mental block unable to reconcile the idea of a long lived race somehow got capped sooner than a human.

What astounds me is that NOBODY, EVER, in 46 years has ever asked, in game, "Why do elves that live for a thousand years stop leveling up?"  Because if they had they would discover that, despite the fact that everybody knows Elves live for millenia, none of the Elves or Dwarves they meet are much older than 150 or so.  And yes, the Elves and Dwarves will say that they live much longer.  But they won't say more.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1037768What astounds me is that NOBODY, EVER, in 46 years has ever asked, in game, "Why do elves that live for a thousand years stop leveling up?"  Because if they had they would discover that, despite the fact that everybody knows Elves live for millenia, none of the Elves or Dwarves they meet are much older than 150 or so.  And yes, the Elves and Dwarves will say that they live much longer.  But they won't say more.

My Edition is 2e, so the elves there 'lived' to 1400/1500 years, but at about 400, or was it 700?  I forget, anyway, once they hit that age, they go to 'Evermeet'.  Dwarves lived to 2-350 (Again, I think, it's been a while) so I had NPC's with Class levels at around those ages.  Because no one told me not to.  So I simply assumed that for some silly reason, when you meet an old elf, they somehow stopped learning.  Thing is, never sat well with me, so I ignored level limits.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037771My Edition is 2e, so the elves there 'lived' to 1400/1500 years, but at about 400, or was it 700?  I forget, anyway, once they hit that age, they go to 'Evermeet'.  Dwarves lived to 2-350 (Again, I think, it's been a while) so I had NPC's with Class levels at around those ages.  Because no one told me not to.  So I simply assumed that for some silly reason, when you meet an old elf, they somehow stopped learning.  Thing is, never sat well with me, so I ignored level limits.

I compromised and said that after the demihuman level limits, they take double xp to level up. And elves that live for hundreds of years hit a kind of plateau, where leveling gets harder because there's not much left to learn. If you assume that only a small percentage of people are adventurers with a class, and only a small percentage of them get to be high level, then it rarely becomes an issue.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1037768What astounds me is that NOBODY, EVER, in 46 years has ever asked, in game, "Why do elves that live for a thousand years stop leveling up?"  Because if they had they would discover that, despite the fact that everybody knows Elves live for millenia, none of the Elves or Dwarves they meet are much older than 150 or so.  And yes, the Elves and Dwarves will say that they live much longer.  But they won't say more.

I did.
The answer was that it's been houseruled away;).

And BTW, I've run both low-magic and historical campaigns, so what is your point, Krimson?

Elves and dwarves don't live past 150 because adventurers come along. They're killed once we run out of orcs. Your level limit is my sword.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037582SJW: We want D&D to be more inclusive!
POC: Great!  
SJW: BTW, orcs are black people!
POC: Uh...
SJW: And most every campaign involves killing orcs. Or goblins, who are Mexicans.
POC: Uh...
SJW: But we fixed it because elves are transgender now. That's why the black elves hate them.
POC: [flees the freakshow]

This would be funny if not for that fact that it accurately describes Pathfinder. They literally think adding a few transgender characters here and there somehow makes up for the bizarre fantasy racism prevalent elsewhere.

The "evil elves are black" thing is definitely something I think could be changed. Like, IDK, elves were originally black and the evil ones were cursed with white skin?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037577Heck yeah!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2465[/ATTACH]

Gotta love Harryhausen.  Looking at that picture, those are obviously Scimitars of Speed.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037771My Edition is 2e, so the elves there 'lived' to 1400/1500 years, but at about 400, or was it 700?  I forget, anyway, once they hit that age, they go to 'Evermeet'.  Dwarves lived to 2-350 (Again, I think, it's been a while) so I had NPC's with Class levels at around those ages.  Because no one told me not to.  So I simply assumed that for some silly reason, when you meet an old elf, they somehow stopped learning.  Thing is, never sat well with me, so I ignored level limits.

Player: Can I play a [Flavor] Elf?

GM: Yes. If you wear pointy ears the skin color of [Flavor] Elves, so we know and remember you're roleplaying a [Flavor] elf and not just in it for the infravision.

Player: Um... Do they have level caps?

GM: No.

Player: Oh great! Do they have an experience modifier?

GM: They level up in proportion to the point where they "go to 'Evermeet'".

Player: I have trouble subtracting one small number from another. What does that mean?

GM: They don't use experience points. They just steadily go up in level.

Player: Oh... Hey, less math, right?

GM: Yep. For [Flavor] Elves, that comes out to about +1 level every 75 years of gameworld time. Then at about age 700 they "go to 'Evermeet'" and become happy NPCs in a place no PC ever goes.

Quote from: Skarg;1037938Player: Can I play a [Flavor] Elf?

GM: Yes. If you wear pointy ears the skin color of [Flavor] Elves, so we know and remember you're roleplaying a [Flavor] elf and not just in it for the infravision.

Player: Um... Do they have level caps?

GM: No.

Player: Oh great! Do they have an experience modifier?

GM: They level up in proportion to the point where they "go to 'Evermeet'".

Player: I have trouble subtracting one small number from another. What does that mean?

GM: They don't use experience points. They just steadily go up in level.

Player: Oh... Hey, less math, right?

GM: Yep. For [Flavor] Elves, that comes out to about +1 level every 75 years of gameworld time. Then at about age 700 they "go to 'Evermeet'" and become happy NPCs in a place no PC ever goes.

Player: Where is this Evermeet?

GM: It's a tavern in Specularum. Nice place. Great wine and strangely popular with Alphatian expatriates.

I seem to recall some people wanting to play elves because they were cool Tolkien guys or whatnot, and some because (and my starting point was BECMI) they were the only option for a fighter-wizard (various gazetteers and such later made that obsolete, I think). I think by the time we switched to AD&D, we were burned out on Tolkien, and again it was 'which do you want, option to multiclass or option to dual class?' I don't recall anyone ever choosing them just for the infravision.

I'm sure the elven level limits worked just fine in oD&D in original-style play. Especially if you stay within the first ten levels or so, such that starting out as an elf and playing it up to the level limit, and then starting over with a human give the guy next to you who started with and stuck with a human character will always be several levels ahead.

I don't feel they ever got it right in any of the further iterations (or changes in likely levels played). Most of our BECMI campaigns fizzled in the 8-12 range anyways (and even when they didn't the game became much more about what your army looked like or what items you had than what level you were), same with 2e and the range for elves in that edition. Maybe 1e it worked better, although I'm sure that depends on whether one uses UA or not. Regardless, it always seemed like 'no penalty now and during the levels you would actually be playing. And then the (level-based) advancement is completely cut off, at which point it is a penalty on a character you're unlikely to be playing anymore (although that's not a hard fact by any stretch).'

So again, I think it's a case of D&D drifting from first principles, but I didn't find it the best solution for the game at the time.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1037946I'm sure the elven level limits worked just fine in oD&D in original-style play. Especially if you stay within the first ten levels or so, such that starting out as an elf and playing it up to the level limit, and then starting over with a human give the guy next to you who started with and stuck with a human character will always be several levels ahead.

Don't forget, we all had multiple characters as well.  None of this "band of heroes welded together at the hip."