Quote from: Willie the Duck;1037055Sure, but it just changes them from having a sign over their head saying 'designated villain,' into a sign over their head saying, "~~~***Designated Villain***~~~." It literally doesn't change the actual moral calculus, nor the ridiculousness of applying moral calculus to the situation.

And if the demons or devils are red or black skillned or even purple with green polka-dots someone would claim that these were racist representations of real races.

You litterally can never satisfy against these loons.

Quote from: Omega;1037450Same. And thats effectively what some of these SJWs are doing.

My god, I'm bullied and I didn't know it! Those words on a forum I don't read have oppressed me!

I think we can be a bit more level-headed and resilient than a SJW. I know that's setting the bar pretty high, but...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1037459My god, I'm bullied and I didn't know it! Those words on a forum I don't read have oppressed me!

I think we can be a bit more level-headed and resilient than a SJW. I know that's setting the bar pretty high, but...

Trying to force guilt onto another person because of trying to be the 'moral authority' is bullying.  And if you think it just happens you're a child, you don't live in the real world.  It happens and is happening all the time, at all ages.

Quote from: Aglondir;1037412Constructs: Not sure where to put these.
Giants: The Stone and Storm giants seem like People (they can do good or evil, and you judge them accordingly) while the rest (Hill, Fire, etc.) seem like "big orcs" and you kill them or they kill you.
Humanoids: Both elves and orcs are humanoids, but it's clear they fall distinictly into People and Anti-people. I suppose someone's created a "People Orc" but that's not baseline.
Undead: I was tempted to split them between "smart" and "mindless" with the latter in the Hazard category. Not sure.

According to the roughly standard perspective, constructs would often be "alien".  Though if you identified their creator and the creator has gone to some trouble to make the construct fit in, they could be the same type as the creator.  

However, a big part of my point is that these categories are descriptive, not prescriptive.  They are about how the creature is used in the game.  Just in the descriptions of how people have used orcs in the spin off topic, I think we've got example of them being used in all six categories!  

Complaining about orcs being racist is not only stupid, but a stupid waste of time.  If the complainer doesn't like them, what are they going to do about it?  Cut them out or change them into something else.  OK, change them into what, and why is he doing that instead of just cutting them out?  Knowing the purpose they serve in his current setting, he can make a smart decision on how to change them or remove them if they don't fit.  If the real complaint is that other people are doing things in their game he doesn't like, then let's cut to the chase so we can tell that moron to sod off, and quit blathering about something he doesn't understand at all.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037394Krimson's post got me thinking...what if orcs were delicious?

What if orcs were THE source of bacon in your campaign?

Adventurers would be in the Butcher's Guild. That would be about it;).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1037459My god, I'm bullied and I didn't know it! Those words on a forum I don't read have oppressed me!

I think we can be a bit more level-headed and resilient than a SJW. I know that's setting the bar pretty high, but...

Wouldn't it be nice if we could kill all the monsters?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1037483According to the roughly standard perspective, constructs would often be "alien".  Though if you identified their creator and the creator has gone to some trouble to make the construct fit in, they could be the same type as the creator.  

However, a big part of my point is that these categories are descriptive, not prescriptive.  They are about how the creature is used in the game.  Just in the descriptions of how people have used orcs in the spin off topic, I think we've got example of them being used in all six categories!  

Complaining about orcs being racist is not only stupid, but a stupid waste of time.  If the complainer doesn't like them, what are they going to do about it?  Cut them out or change them into something else.  OK, change them into what, and why is he doing that instead of just cutting them out?  Knowing the purpose they serve in his current setting, he can make a smart decision on how to change them or remove them if they don't fit.  If the real complaint is that other people are doing things in their game he doesn't like, then let's cut to the chase so we can tell that moron to sod off, and quit blathering about something he doesn't understand at all.

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

I played Warcraft 3 and had no problem butchering armies of orcs, but then again Warcraft 3 portrayed the orcs as good guys.

I never understood why we need orcs, though. If orcs are just funny-looking humans, then why not use green-skinned humans? If orcs are some demon god's slaves, why not use evil humans like the Dothraki? The Great Stallion is obviously a demon lord.

Quote from: David Johansen;1037526Wouldn't it be nice if we could kill all the monsters?

Do humans qualify? Like green-skinned humans or Dothraki?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037418Sword hydras? SWORD HYDRAS!!!

Best thing to come out of this thread!

I picture a mechanical contruct that has 4 legs and 5 arms each swinging a long sword. The large version has 5 arms swinging great swords.

Ever seen the Golden Voyage of Sinbad? It has a statue of a six-armed goddess with a scimitar in each arm that comes to life. Wonderful stuff.

In TFT & pre-DF GURPS, orcs aren't anti-person, but orcs are nasty, and Dwarves and Elves are (almost) anti-Orc. In TFT, there mostly aren't really anti-person humanoids by race, only by individual, or monsters, and even those tend to have a perspective rather than an "it's evil".

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1037483... However, a big part of my point is that these categories are descriptive, not prescriptive.  They are about how the creature is used in the game.  Just in the descriptions of how people have used orcs in the spin off topic, I think we've got example of them being used in all six categories!

Yes, though it's still valid to notice that often fantasy races are used to relate to intelligent humanoids by race, where race determines their personality, ability levels, good/evil/morality, and often whether PCs get a license/encouragement to kill anyone in that entire race or not.

i.e. Humanoid fantasy races with different abilities and morality are at some level a fantasy world where something like human racist thinking is objectively accurate - there really are races which are stronger or smarter or mostly good or evil and it's objectively Good to kill the Evil ones.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1037483Complaining about orcs being racist is not only stupid, but a stupid waste of time.  If the complainer doesn't like them, what are they going to do about it?  Cut them out or change them into something else.  OK, change them into what, and why is he doing that instead of just cutting them out?  Knowing the purpose they serve in his current setting, he can make a smart decision on how to change them or remove them if they don't fit.  If the real complaint is that other people are doing things in their game he doesn't like, then let's cut to the chase so we can tell that moron to sod off, and quit blathering about something he doesn't understand at all.

It seems to me what's stupid is going beyond acknowledging that it is a pattern of thinking that has some parallels to historical racism, bigotry, and genocidal behavior, and that it's a way to try to make it not be an issue to have clearly-identifiable evil hordes to do battle with. Noticing it and choosing whether that's what you want to do or not is one thing, which seems to me not stupid or necessarily a waste of time. But going beyond that to say something like the thread title, seems to me hyperbolic exaggeration and wrong. When it's used to say a game or players are racists because they kill orcs, that's wrong and obnoxious.

Yes, a game or story about evil orcs who are ok to kill because they're orcs is racist... against evil orc races, which don't exist, and are game things which also don't exist, and it's ok to play games about genocidal violence, even if the victims are humans - it's a game and doesn't make you a murderer any more than James Earl Jones is Darth Vader or Thulsa Doom.

Seems to me that's an easy and appropriate level of response - if I'm a racist murderer for playing a dwarf who kills orcs, then do you think we should condemn every actor who ever played a murderer or a Nazi?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1037528... I never understood why we need orcs, though. If orcs are just funny-looking humans, then why not use green-skinned humans? If orcs are some demon god's slaves, why not use evil humans like the Dothraki? The Great Stallion is obviously a demon lord.

Do humans qualify? Like green-skinned humans or Dothraki?

Humans can be used the same way. Cowboys & indians. Dothraki seem a pretty thoughtfully-done case, as they're human, have a consistent culture, are often shown from a sympathetic perspective, yet also are often very violent and ruthless and severe, and are seen as horrible monsters by some other humans. But they're clearly humans who behave the way they do because they're following their cultural perspective - there's nothing racial about it, and it's not clear they deserve to be killed for being Dothraki.

I think it's a good and interesting question to ask oneself when setting up a game world - do you want or need orcs, and why exactly? Often I think one reason is to provide something you can do deadly battle with in large quantities without (or with less) moral questions. Which doesn't need an apology, but I think it's worthwhile to be aware of and make a conscious choice about.

Quote from: soltakss;1037549Ever seen the Golden Voyage of Sinbad? It has a statue of a six-armed goddess with a scimitar in each arm that comes to life. Wonderful stuff.

Yeah, I love those films and that's a great part. Made my skin crawl the first time I saw it.

Sword Hydra to me suggests a hydra with reptilian arms coming out of the sides of the necks, wielding swords. I'm already imagining that massacring PC parties in GURPS...

Quote from: soltakss;1037549Ever seen the Golden Voyage of Sinbad? It has a statue of a six-armed goddess with a scimitar in each arm that comes to life. Wonderful stuff.

Heck yeah!

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SJW: We want D&D to be more inclusive!
POC: Great!  
SJW: BTW, orcs are black people!
POC: Uh...
SJW: And most every campaign involves killing orcs. Or goblins, who are Mexicans.
POC: Uh...
SJW: But we fixed it because elves are transgender now. That's why the black elves hate them.
POC: [flees the freakshow]

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037480Trying to force guilt onto another person because of trying to be the 'moral authority' is bullying.

It's an attempt at coercion, but "bullying" is too emotionally and politically charged a term. Yes, the SJWs are trying to use social shaming to silence critics and demand ideological obedience, but "bullying" feels like giving them too much credit. But I get what you are saying and the SJWs need massive forceful pushback.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1037459My god, I'm bullied and I didn't know it! Those words on a forum I don't read have oppressed me!

Command your koalas to sally forth the fainting couch!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1037459I think we can be a bit more level-headed and resilient than a SJW. I know that's setting the bar pretty high, but...

I don't think Brady was referencing "bullying" as in "we're victims, oh noes", but as in "fuck those fucking fuck heads" who are attempting to be bullies.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037582It's an attempt at coercion, but "bullying" is too emotionally and politically charged a term. Yes, the SJWs are trying to use social shaming to silence critics and demand ideological obedience, but "bullying" feels like giving them too much credit. But I get what you are saying and the SJWs need massive forceful pushback.

I don't think Brady was referencing "bullying" as in "we're victims, oh noes", but as in "fuck those fucking fuck heads" who are attempting to be bullies.

Great points. It's a kind of passive aggressive bullying. (but has gone full aggressive in some situations as they encounter pushback)

Quote from: Skarg;1037562I think it's a good and interesting question to ask oneself when setting up a game world - do you want or need orcs, and why exactly? Often I think one reason is to provide something you can do deadly battle with in large quantities without (or with less) moral questions. Which doesn't need an apology, but I think it's worthwhile to be aware of and make a conscious choice about.

I think we are mostly on the same page.  One of the reasons that I think complaining about it is stupid, is similar to the Twain quote:  "Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037582It's an attempt at coercion, but "bullying" is too emotionally and politically charged a term. Yes, the SJWs are trying to use social shaming to silence critics and demand ideological obedience, but "bullying" feels like giving them too much credit. But I get what you are saying and the SJWs need massive forceful pushback.

Coercion is bullying, it's as you say, just not as emotionally charged as the B word.  But then, I don't mince words.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1037582I don't think Brady was referencing "bullying" as in "we're victims, oh noes", but as in "fuck those fucking fuck heads" who are attempting to be bullies.

Pretty much, guilting, coercion, same thing.  I play my elf-games my way, don't like it?  What Spinachcat said.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1037609I think we are mostly on the same page.  One of the reasons that I think complaining about it is stupid, is similar to the Twain quote:  "Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it."

Yep.

Though some people who aren't just trying to get attention for their articles can and do do something about fantasy race dissatisfaction. For example, one friend/GM in the 1980's complained "many players want to play Elves just because [in most systems] Elves are just like 'humans plus' [various powers/bonuses]" (not a racism complaint BTW, but a "this is dumb/boring/uninteresting" complaint) so he had them not exist in his campaigns, and/or ran human-only game settings.