Quote from: Skarg;1036822Funny how I've never met these SJWs that the anti-SJW chorus seems to be plagued with, and how the anti-SJW chorus seem to complain and demonize SJWs rather like you say they demonize others... only the anti-SJW chorus is the side I actually experience making lots of noise on gaming forums (though again, I tend to not even read forums that are too annoyingly moderated, and I don't like any WotC games so I don't read their forums either - I take it you folks are referring to actual people on other game forums?).

Take a look at the board-game side of the hobby. SJWs had Five Tribes change its components because they dared have slaves as a component of the game. They exist and they have material impact on gaming.

I don't know about you folks, but I don't like being falsely accused of participating in an intrinsically racist hobby.

In fact, on reflection, I think I would like to tell everybody who makes such an defamatory accusation to fuck off, keep fucking off until they get to a wall saying "no fucking off beyond this point", then climb the wall and fuck off some more.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1036824Adam Koebel and Jeremy Crawford

Yeah I don't know who they are. Googling... oh Adam is the fellow people were complaining about on one of these threads for being annoying in a video... LOL he's a "Twitch Star" and I don't know what Twitch is, an he co-made Dungeon World, which from what I've heard about it and the core system PbtA, uses a playstyle I can see being interesting to me as an experiment but one I don't want to use, so I've avoided those games too.

Let's see Jeremy Crawford... is a WotC D&D rules designer, and I've read enough about 4e and 5e to know I don't want to play those and find their popularity annoying and avoid them.

I guess I just know how to mostly pick my games and players to avoid things that annoy me. But I gather there is much annoyance to be had out there.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1036826I don't know about you folks, but I don't like being falsely accused of participating in an intrinsically racist hobby.

In fact, on reflection, I think I would like to tell everybody who makes such an defamatory accusation to fuck off, keep fucking off until they get to a wall saying "no fucking off beyond this point", then climb the wall and fuck off some more.

Very much agreed and seconded.

Quote from: Skarg;1036827I guess I just know how to mostly pick my games and players to avoid things that annoy me. But I gather there is much annoyance to be had out there.

The first is co-author of Dungeon World and the second is co-author of Blue Rose. and Lead Rules Designer for Wizards of the Coast.

There is no reason why you should be interested in those games, but they are clearly major titles.

 I suppose you might not even have been interested in this thread.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1036825Take a look at the board-game side of the hobby. SJWs had Five Tribes change its components because they dared have slaves as a component of the game. They exist and they have material impact on gaming.

That's an interesting example, and I think the cry to remove Slave cards seems somewhat backwards to me, as it actually seems to me to generally better to include ugly historical things in games than to cover them up. I don't really agree with the desire of some parents to or players to cover up or avoid subjects they're uncomfortable with. In that example, of course, it's a cutesy card game with cartoon-style art and gameplay so abstract that they could just rename Slaves to Fakirs and not change the mechanics at all. And, the decision seems to be about wanting to maintain a [politically-incorrect-ugliness-overly-avoidant parent] "family friendly" brand.

But, yeah. I have heard some other examples some of you have mentioned in past threads about WotC or Paizo (companies whose games I avoid anyway for non-political reasons) altering D&D/Pathfinder/etc in some ways to bow to complaints or fit in with more modern cultural inclusiveness or whatever, which I can see being annoying and worthy of grumbling about. I wouldn't like annoying subject-nerfing or modernizing of games I like, either. I haven't seen that in the games I like though.

And, if the complaints were sober and game-related (instead of mainly weird rants about SJW types I never meet by people who have different definitions of other terms and go rambling off for pages into political themes that just make me think they're nuts), I'd probably be much more inclined to agree. The recent threads here though seem to be mainly displaying examples (of themselves) that there ARE annoying bigoted buffoons in the RPG crowd.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1036817Indeed in Warhammer and in Peter Jackson's films, they were given working class cockney accents.

As a person born into a British working class family, I see nothing analogous, nor do I wish to encourage any such analogy.

The analogy is clearly there in the Tolkien original. The orcs' and trolls' dialog is full of working class English mannerisms. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to encourage it, but it exists. I agree that orcs aren't a specific ethnicity - but they have a specific social class.

Quote from: jhkim;1036836The analogy is clearly there in the Tolkien original. The orcs' and trolls' dialog is full of working class English mannerisms. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to encourage it, but it exists. I agree that orcs aren't a specific ethnicity - but they have a specific social class.

Woah there. Orcs have a specific social class? I'd agree that Tolkien and GW used English mannerisms as a shorthand, but orcs weren't a part of the societies that the characters were.

Quote from: Skarg;1036827Yeah I don't know who they are. Googling... oh Adam is the fellow people were complaining about on one of these threads for being annoying in a video... LOL he's a "Twitch Star" and I don't know what Twitch is, an he co-made Dungeon World, which from what I've heard about it and the core system PbtA, uses a playstyle I can see being interesting to me as an experiment but one I don't want to use, so I've avoided those games too.

Let's see Jeremy Crawford... is a WotC D&D rules designer, and I've read enough about 4e and 5e to know I don't want to play those and find their popularity annoying and avoid them.

I guess I just know how to mostly pick my games and players to avoid things that annoy me. But I gather there is much annoyance to be had out there.

It's very, very odd for someone who holds their complete and total ignorance of the hobby at large outside of the 4 games they play as a point of pride to then turn around and claim that elements of the hobby they purposely remain ignorant of don't exist. :rolleyes:

It's even odder when the element they are claiming doesn't exist is linked to in the very first post.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1036837Woah there. Orcs have a specific social class? I'd agree that Tolkien and GW used English mannerisms as a shorthand, but orcs weren't a part of the societies that the characters were.

No, they're analogous to a specific social class in our society (of the time), not that they are the lowest order of the elf/dwarf/human/hobbit societies depicted.

Or if you prefer a shorthand, Tolkein was a snob.

Quote from: jhkim;1036836The analogy is clearly there in the Tolkien original. The orcs' and trolls' dialog is full of working class English mannerisms. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to encourage it, but it exists. I agree that orcs aren't a specific ethnicity - but they have a specific social class.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1036837Woah there. Orcs have a specific social class? I'd agree that Tolkien and GW used English mannerisms as a shorthand, but orcs weren't a part of the societies that the characters were.

Hobbits are essentially the idealized pastoral, agricultural Englishmen, Elves and Dunedain are the legendary historical Englishmen who helped create England, nobles and royals.  Sauron and Saruman represent the forces of industry and war and orcs are the working class, slaves to the meatgrinder of progress.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1036842Hobbits are essentially the idealized pastoral, agricultural Englishmen, Elves and Dunedain are the legendary historical Englishmen who helped create England, nobles and royals.  Sauron and Saruman represent the forces of industry and war and orcs are the working class, slaves to the meatgrinder of progress.

Yeah, that's roughly what I meant. Thanks.

Quote from: jhkim;1036845Yeah, that's roughly what I meant. Thanks.

Ok. I didn't think you meant the other thing, but wanted to make sure.

Quote from: rgrove0172;1036802Sort of like beligerents resisting the cops of today. Cause and effect, go figure.

No and go fuck yourself, grover.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1036826I don't know about you folks, but I don't like being falsely accused of participating in an intrinsically racist hobby.

In fact, on reflection, I think I would like to tell everybody who makes such an defamatory accusation to fuck off, keep fucking off until they get to a wall saying "no fucking off beyond this point", then climb the wall and fuck off some more.

Agreed and QFT.