From the Killing in the name of Advancement thread on EnWorld, which in itself has some whopper statements even in the opening post, we get this lovely sentiment from Shidaku;

"I hate to suggest that there may indeed be forms of badwrongfun, but I raise some serious eyebrows and some of the ways people talk about games of "kill the orc". I find it strange that people can "have fun" in games that are about little more than killing as many other humanoids (of the wrong color of course) as possible. The fact that many fantasy races stem from stereotypes, exaggerations or mockeries of real people makes me raise eyebrows even further. Whether these people realize it or not, they are "having fun" essentially killing real people who are wearing a funny rubber mask, a rubber mask, I might add, placed on that real person by someone with a decidedly poor or warped view of those real people."

The thread raises the larger questions about the ethics of just killing evil things rather than trying to stop humanoids in non-murderous ways.

Thoughts on that theme in RPGs?

I've noticed a number of front page posts over there that are basically trolling. As the year long gap in my posting here suggests, I haven't been paying attention to online rpg forums for a while. Is this a recent trend?

Quote from: Mistwell;1036132Thoughts on that theme in RPGs?

That this is nothing new. That the ethical considerations of designated bad-guy races does not line up well with real-world ethics. That the very concept of "always evil" creatures that somehow have enough agency to be responsible for their actions from a moral perspective is a paradox that invites people to spin their philosophical wheels on it indefinitely. That the person who posted it probably doesn't take this seriously either, and is just looking to shake a hornets nest ('real people' being a pretty good tell, to my eyes). And of course the overall thought that it's a game, and it has as much meaning as you assign it.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1036136That the very concept of "always evil" creatures that somehow have enough agency to be responsible for their actions from a moral perspective is a paradox that invites people to spin their philosophical wheels on it indefinitely.

I recall the convolutions that J.R.R. Tolkien went through over the nature and origin of orcs. I don't think he ever did come up with a satisfactory solution and was still tinkering with different ideas right up to the time of his death.

But then, we all know that JRRT was a racist murderer.:rolleyes:

My counterpoints are
a) things trying to kill you or you trying to kill things is a stressful form of learning. Experience points represent that. If you don't like the specific then just use a milestone award. Which amounts to the same things but in a neutral way. "Hey were are alive!" "Yay that is a fucking milestone for sure."

b) In the United States what foremost on many people minds as THE example is the contact between Europeans and native Americans. This is not a typical situation. In most cases there a long dragged out history between two neighboring cultures that are either peaceful or hostile because of "reasons". Gen A of the Mandars  decided some of the cattle of the Yodans was better off in their pasture. During the raid some Yodans were killed. Years laters Gen B of the Yodans want revenge for personal and economic loss so launches a raid against the Mandars. And that it just one specific interactions. When you add in trade, friendship, aniomosity, war, love and all the myriad forms of human interaction there are many paths where two cultures can wind up hating and despising one another.

c) As for orcs specifically one could treat like a human style cultural clash. Or add in some supernatural elements to explain why orcs are what they are. I opted for the latter for my Majestic Wilderlands. All non-human races except for the elves are humans mutated by the demons thousands of years ago. The orcs are particularly tragic example as they were altered so their aggression levels were shift to extreme human norms. Combined with the other altered trait meant that orcs as a culture are pretty much unable to co-exist with neighboring culture. Although individual orcs can be exceptions.

I think orcs should try being less evil if they don't want to be killed.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1036145I think orcs should try being less evil if they don't want to be killed.

Nobody forced them into the Army of Evil. I saw the fuckers at the sign up line.

Quote from: estar;1036143My counterpoints are
b) b) In the United States what foremost on many people minds as THE example is the contact between Europeans and native Americans. This is not a typical situation. In most cases there a long dragged out history between two neighboring cultures that are either peaceful or hostile because of "reasons". Gen A of the Mandars decided some of the cattle of the Yodans was better off in their pasture. During the raid some Yodans were killed. Years laters Gen B of the Yodans want revenge for personal and economic loss so launches a raid against the Mandars. And that it just one specific interactions. When you add in trade, friendship, aniomosity, war, love and all the myriad forms of human interaction there are many paths where two cultures can wind up hating and despising one another.

Everything in bold sounds about like how it went down between Europeans/Americans and the Northern tribes. Spanish conquests were different, but still hardly atypical, having as much in common with Alexander's or Xerxes' conquests as they may have with anything else.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1036147Everything in bold sounds about like how it went down between Europeans/Americans and the Northern tribes. Spanish conquests were different, but still hardly atypical, having as much in common with Alexander's or Xerxes' conquests as they may have with anything else.

What was atypical was the suddenness of contact.

Quote from: Mistwell;1036132From the Killing in the name of Advancement thread on EnWorld, which in itself has some whopper statements even in the opening post, we get this lovely sentiment from Shidaku;

"I hate to suggest that there may indeed be forms of badwrongfun, but I raise some serious eyebrows and some of the ways people talk about games of "kill the orc". I find it strange that people can "have fun" in games that are about little more than killing as many other humanoids (of the wrong color of course) as possible. The fact that many fantasy races stem from stereotypes, exaggerations or mockeries of real people makes me raise eyebrows even further. Whether these people realize it or not, they are "having fun" essentially killing real people who are wearing a funny rubber mask, a rubber mask, I might add, placed on that real person by someone with a decidedly poor or warped view of those real people."

The thread raises the larger questions about the ethics of just killing evil things rather than trying to stop humanoids in non-murderous ways.

Thoughts on that theme in RPGs?

That guy sounds insufferable and needs to get over himself. Tonight is my game name and my players are going to be killing lots of orcs. This Saturday is my daughter's game and she and her girlfriends are going to be killing orcs. But we actually play games and just don't talk about them on forums.

I think it's a positive thing that violent games get people exposed to violence in a participatory way, which eventually leads to us engaging violence instead of repressing or avoiding it. I think it's useful in various subtle automatic ways, even if it's just catharsis, but also when games get us to reflect a bit about what we're enjoying, and how power dynamics work, whose lives we consider precious and whose we don't, when we give or expect mercy, and other things.

And, yes, evil creatures invented for the purpose of having something morally unambiguous to kill, is ultimately one of those things that bears reflection.

Of course it's by no means a unique issue to games, but I think games engage us more powerfully because they put us actively in situations.

I find it pretty painful sometimes watching "monster hunter" TV shows such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Supernatural where there are monsters for hyper-casual killing who kill unnamed human characters all the time, but also there are other monsters (sometimes of the same species as the casually-killed ones) who are presented as good sympathetic people, and that's occasionally made a moral question, but then there are often sudden cases of evil humans or accidentally-killed humans or major sympathetic characters in danger and then suddenly there's supposedly a huge clear moral issue about killing humans, and/or breaking the law... sigh.

I think it's just another game preference setting, but one that most people don't tend to look at or consider terribly closely. Massacre the evil orcs isn't bad wrong fun in my book, but just a low setting on the "how much are we thinking about morality?" slider setting for a game.

Quote from: Mistwell;1036132From the Killing in the name of Advancement thread on EnWorld, which in itself has some whopper statements even in the opening post, we get this lovely sentiment from Shidaku;

"I hate to suggest that there may indeed be forms of badwrongfun, but I raise some serious eyebrows and some of the ways people talk about games of "kill the orc". I find it strange that people can "have fun" in games that are about little more than killing as many other humanoids (of the wrong color of course) as possible. The fact that many fantasy races stem from stereotypes, exaggerations or mockeries of real people makes me raise eyebrows even further. Whether these people realize it or not, they are "having fun" essentially killing real people who are wearing a funny rubber mask, a rubber mask, I might add, placed on that real person by someone with a decidedly poor or warped view of those real people."

The thread raises the larger questions about the ethics of just killing evil things rather than trying to stop humanoids in non-murderous ways.

Thoughts on that theme in RPGs?

There are Games and there is Reality. Know the difference.

Gosh, is it "Bullshit O'Clock" again?

This subject was not interesting 40 years ago.  It has not improved with age.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1036135I've noticed a number of front page posts over there that are basically trolling. As the year long gap in my posting here suggests, I haven't been paying attention to online rpg forums for a while. Is this a recent trend?

That Christopher Helton is quite a piece of work.