I have generally constructed my wilderness areas like a dungeon. Detail the key important hexes (rooms) then fill in the remainder with random stuff that fits the area. A typical setup in my world for a new campaign would be a small freehold on the fringe of civilization. There are things going on locally that the players may get involved in, or they may decide to push north into the wild lands to see what can be discovered. Going south lead
to more settled and established freeholds, east leads to a massive mountain range seperating the freeholds from the old eastern kingdoms, and west leads to more wilderness bordering the strange and unknown lands of the western continent.

So at the start, players are presented with a freehold small town. There is notice board leading to happenings right around town. Rumors are available in the town, and the only place the players will be unlikely to find grand adventure right away is to south, which is where they came from. The local oppotunities are geared for lower level characters with things getting more dangerous further out. Nothing is stopping the neophytes from heading out to these dangerous areas right away but they will likely perish quickly.

So the majority of prep is done beforehand. Typical pre session prep is generally just making notes having the world react to what the players did. Things in motion, such as the plots and plans by various NPCs will continue to develop on course assuming the players do not interact with them. So if the players decide to head off into the wilderness right away, the cultists hold up in a nearby cave, will continue kidnapping locals for sacrifice. Any players returning to town will see evidence of this activity.

So as far as starting the campaign goes, if pre-campaign prep is done properly, you can just turn the players loose in the setting and see what interests them. There are "jobs" available via the notice board, there are fantastic rumors to be heard around town, and possibly other options if players take a little time to observe what is going on. I have yet to have group that was at a loss for something to do.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 20, 2024, 01:00:48 AMI don't ever remember what some people mean when they say a pure sandbox game.  That is to say that I never saw a game where everything was procedurally generated using random tables.  There defined locations on the map even if the players did not know about them right away.  The random tables were for when the players went someplace that didn't have any defined thing already there.  I vaguely remember that you were supposed to use that Avalon Hill Wilderness Survival game for overland exploration so I guess that's what hexcrawl is supposed to mean?  I didn't have it or use it.  I didn't know anyone who did.  If what I did matched that game, it was a coincidence.

Yeah, "hexcrawl" as a lot of the OSR crowd uses it seems to mean procedurally generated world as you go, not even before the game starts (which could actually be interesting). It's like they took the Wilderness Survival idea, which was supposed to be only for traveling from point A to point B outdoors, and asked, "What if we had no destination and just moved on this map?" So, basically, it's playing a board game with D&D elements.

Quote from: estar on December 20, 2024, 07:29:32 AMThis is from my "The World outside of the Dungeon" Chapter from my Basic Rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG. I made the chapter available for free as a PDF from here if you want to read it in its original context.

https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/The%20World%20Outside%20of%20the%20Dungeon.pdf

Some blog posts that I wrote
Axioms of Sandbox Campaigns
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2017/08/my-axioms-of-sandbox-campaigns.html

How to Manage a Sandbox Campaign: The pre-game.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-to-manage-sandbox-campaign-pre-game.html

Reading the blog posts now, you have some excellent stuff; thank you for linking them. Although most of the people I play with seem like they wouldn't want to do the part in pre-game where you talk about throwing ideas back and forth, I love that concept. Even as a kid my players hated making characters together or you know, having some idea where they fit in the world. never understood that then, still don't understand that mindset now since I love that as a player. I've been told they feel that it's taking way their freedom to decide (even though it's not) so idk. The "I'm thinking of playing an Elf Ranger" and then the DM and I bouncing some ideas back and forth where I might be from, why I might be in the starting area, etc. culminating with the players deciding if and how their characters know each other.

Another point to consider in the varied ways that GMs run sand boxes, when they do, is that like anything else, it can be done well, decent, or poorly.  Or more to the point, different aspects of it can be done well, decent, or poorly.  The parts that are poor tend to get traded out into something else, which is why the sand box isn't "pure".

For example, in my case I really enjoy a straight sand box, and I also enjoy a fixed adventure.  I tend to put a hearty sampling of both in my campaigns.  Sometimes I don't even know until just before the session starts which one it will be, even though I'm prepared for both.  Sometimes, I don't know what the players will want to do.  Playing in a sandbox exercises the players in a different way.  Sometimes, they show up tired, don't want to be that active, and want to just kill some monsters and take their stuff.  If killing those particular monsters and taking their stuff has "world in motion" repercussions, that will still happen even though the players were doing something simpler tonight.  It just probably won't happen tonight.

With this kind of game, there's no point in letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, same as any other kind of game.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 20, 2024, 08:24:35 AMReading the blog posts now, you have some excellent stuff; thank you for linking them.

I appreciate the compliment and glad you found some of it useful.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 20, 2024, 08:24:35 AMAlthough most of the people I play with seem like they wouldn't want to do the part in pre-game where you talk about throwing ideas back and forth, I love that concept.

There is no rule that you have to do it formally. Just pay attention to what they DO say. There is always banter before a campaign or session starts. Get good at listening at them and make notes accordingly.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 20, 2024, 08:24:35 AMEven as a kid my players hated making characters together or you know, having some idea where they fit in the world. never understood that then, still don't understand that mindset now since I love that as a player. I've been told they feel that it's taking way their freedom to decide (even though it's not) so idk.

Hey in a campaign I ran from 2022 to 2023, one of the players didn't give me anything more other than his character name is Mac, that he was Thug (Thief type class), and he like hanging out in bars. That all I had to work with. The way it worked out is the party wound up using his favorite inn, the Tanglebones Tavern in the City State of the Invincible Overlord as their home base/hangout.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 20, 2024, 08:24:35 AMThe "I'm thinking of playing an Elf Ranger" and then the DM and I bouncing some ideas back and forth where I might be from, why I might be in the starting area, etc. culminating with the players deciding if and how their characters know each other.

I lived long enough to have met people who didn't really have a higher purpose to anything in their lives other than work, family, and hanging out with friends. And that was more than good enough. The same with adventurer types like Mac, or the guys who just are there to kick down door, kill some shits, and grab the loot. It what they want to do and I built a world that have plenty of interesting taverns and places where door can be kicked in alongside other possibilities that would interest a Elven Ranger.

The trick is however causal a campaign is every setting is POTENTIALLY a entire world filled with as much variety and life as our own. Whether that get put on-stage as part of a campaign is matter of taste and interest. But it there if you need it.

And helps if you want to take advantage of that fact to stick with the same setting regardless of system when running a particular genre/subgenre. It hard to build in depth and more important flexibility if the referee is building the setting from scratch everytime they run a particular genre/subgenre.

I stuck with the Majestic Wilderlands from AD&D 1e, through Fantasy Hero, through GURPS, D&D 3e, Fantasy Age, and now D&D 5e and my Majestic Fantasy RPG. I only did so much for each campaign, but after four decades of piling up stuff, I can match the depth and diversity of other well-established settings like Harn, Middle Earth, and other well-detailed settings.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 20, 2024, 01:30:24 AMIf all hexcrawl means is that the GM uses a hex grid for the overland map and every bit of it isn't defined beforehand, then everyone I knew did that all of the time.  Defined that way, hexcrawl doesn't really mean much of anything though.  I have never played what I have seen people call a pure sandbox game but people in OSR circles sure love to talk about them and claim that they were the way everyone played back then.  I can tell you that I never saw or heard of anyone playing that way.

I played in some games like that, but in the case of those JG sets, there were at least some predefined contents on some hexes.

I did play in some sandbox games, including some with hexcrawl elements. You could 'sandbox' for example, the region around the City State.

Clearly, styles and methodologies are going to be different group to group. I was lucky in that while I initiated many into RPGs when in school in the latter 70s-early 80s, I also got to play with groups now and then that had nothing to do with school, with much older adults from different walks of life.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the 'only way' claimants are reacting more to the lack of those elements in games they've played using more recent rules.

As someone who got my first real experience with D&D during 3e (two very short one on one games with the equally clueless DM during 2e notwithstanding), I never experienced an RPG hex crawl until just two years ago with a short lived Forbidden Lands campaign.  I really enjoyed the exploration aspect of the game that was completely new to me.   It's hard for me to tell whether or not it was just the novelty of the experience or whether I'd continue to appreciate it for years to come since the campaign ended abruptly after two months.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 20, 2024, 01:00:48 AMThat is to say that I never saw a game where everything was procedurally generated using random tables.

You can see one by looking at the links to the sessions from Sep 4th onward here:

https://www.thevikinghatgm.com/p/livestream-schedule-2023.html

and I've done the same thing with Classic Traveller, but I don't have the sessions all listed there.

I generated the stuff before play because I never knew which direction the players would go in. I stayed a few hexes ahead of where they would likely get to in one session.

I honestly believe it's the reason that the faster-than-light "Jump" drives in Traveller, the trip always takes a week: the GM would say, "you're Jumping to world X? Okay, I have to roll that up and flesh it out. See you guys next week." There's no reason the same can't be done with AD&D. "The journey to the dungeon will take a week. See you guys next week." And then during the week they roll everything up and flesh it out a bit.

I find it works best with an open game table with casual players. One of the things that puts players off from just sitting down with a bunch of strangers and starting play is the idea that they'll be tossed into the middle of some grand years-long story where they have no idea what the hell's going on. But if there is no grand story, they can just step in.

Put another way: everyone wants their game to be Babylon 5. But it can just be Star Trek.

I think the Carcosa supplement/module/setting is a big hex crawl. Of course that is to new to be considered a source of any kind.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 19, 2024, 10:20:48 AMThis goes all the way back to Classic Traveller where being the crew of a Free Trader moving from world to world trying to buy low and sell high as a vehicle (pardon the pun) to move the characters from adventure to adventure was the staple of campaigns.

I just wrapped up a five-year Traveller campaign, three of those using the '77 rules, and your point is spot on. No character advancement, no railroads, just ill-defined commercial activity. I'm a firm believer in player agency but they have to do *something* so I threw a few MacGuffins at them, salted cluecrumbs in front of them best I could, and in their defense they did a yeoman's job of following along (although in our finale we talked a fair amount about everything they ignored). But overall I'd have to say that Traveller is more sandbox than hexcrawl.

Re APs, there are some opportunities of proper hex crawl. For example, I ran Paizo's Wrath of the Righteous and in Book 3, there's a fair amount of regional exploration that can fairly easily be modded into a proper hexcrawl. I used Roll20, and basically overlaid the hex map with individual hex "covers", which I removed to expose the map as the party investigated each hex. They chose which hexes to investigate (and missed some things) and as they did, I would uncover the spot. It worked and was very effective. 

If you are running Greyhawk the hex map is useful in conjunction with modules to be able to locate anything on Darlene's map. Where is the underground temple of the Reptile God? Hex 112/H5. This can be used by the DM to key and link modules and be able to add appropriate wandering monsters/encounters in the spaces in between.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 19, 2024, 09:36:40 AMSo, as I stated in the other thread, as far as I can tell, the "hex crawl" as a complete play style is an OSR fabrication. I certainly can't find any references to this approach in any of the rules, not the 3LBB, B/X, BECMI, AD&D, or otherwise. Most of the books seem to talk about having outdoor encounters that use hexes to determine travel times, but none seem to indicate this should be anything other than a side thing to "fill in the gaps" during travel, definitely not an entire mode of play where all you're doing is going from hex to hex and discovering things. From what I can tell the only module to do this was X1 Isle of Dread, and that's part of the module since you're specifically going to an uncharted island.

The X in BX had its DM section cover overland travel and encounters. BECMI had it as well. On both it was presented more as another way to adventure. Isle of Dread is 95% Hex and 5% dungeon. Effectively the map of the island is the dungeon.

Though bemusingly... When I got BX for my birthday I originally ran it unknowingly as a hex crawl, or in my case a grid crawl as I thought you had to play out the overland and do all the checks, etc. We never actually made it to a dungeon!

Gamma World is much the same. Several of the modules are very overland oriented.

And of course Crash on Volturnus for Star Frontiers starts off as a near pure hexcrawl till you meet help. And even after theres alot of overland in that series.

But it is Wilderness Survival that you get the feel that this could be more. But even that is still meant to compliment dungeoneering. Not replace it.

But of course the OSR just has to blow it totally out of proportion.

I can not think of a single TSR product that was overland leaning that did not have at least one dungeon in there somewhere.

Ravenloft is one example. Thats alot of puttering around the countryside. But you have that enormous castle to eventually explore and any crypts and so on. One or two of the early Dragonlance modules is heavy on the hex crawl.

Similar to citycrawls. TSR experimented with those as well.