Yeah, WWII was epic. It was mythic history writ large in our own times. The clash of nations and ideals, the individual stories can only exist when the larger one is reduced to backdrop. WWII isn't the story of Patton or Sgt Rock of Easy company, and it can never be about them.

Star Trek, on the other hand, has always been backdrop for the stories of individual... human scale... trials and tribulations.  Not dissing trek or anything, but the focus tends to make the setting secondary. Un-Epic if you will.

Sos.. I need that Greek Lit jargon here, help me out man!;)

In other words I know exactly... sort of... what I'm trying to say. I just can't seem to express it as eloquently as I'd like. Or as Jargony, which can serve as an adequet replacement for eloquence in times like this....:what:

Quote from: SpikeYeah, WWII was epic. It was mythic history writ large in our own times. The clash of nations and ideals, the individual stories can only exist when the larger one is reduced to backdrop. WWII isn't the story of Patton or Sgt Rock of Easy company, and it can never be about them.

Star Trek, on the other hand, has always been backdrop for the stories of individual... human scale... trials and tribulations.  Not dissing trek or anything, but the focus tends to make the setting secondary. Un-Epic if you will.

Sos.. I need that Greek Lit jargon here, help me out man!;)

In other words I know exactly... sort of... what I'm trying to say. I just can't seem to express it as eloquently as I'd like. Or as Jargony, which can serve as an adequet replacement for eloquence in times like this....:what:

I know people who were in that war, but they wouldn't describe it as mythic,

Understand changes with perspective,


And I don't care what you say,
la la la I'm not listening

Star Trek is epic in its own way,

Quote from: pathfinderapI know people who were in that war, but they wouldn't describe it as mythic,

Understand changes with perspective,


And I don't care what you say,
la la la I'm not listening

Star Trek is epic in its own way,

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Quote from: Spike:confused: :confused: :confused:

LOL which bit was :confused:

Sorry dude I was just joking about, didn't mean to throw you

Quote from: Spike:confused: :confused: :confused:

Man, a war that in one way or another affected almost every country on the planet, and had a whole continent and a whole ocean (and our biggest too) engulfed in the flames of war, seems pretty goddamn epic to me.

Even the Dominion War and Wolf 359 were positively small potatoes comparitively.  The consequence of a TV budget, that the biggest conflicts in Star Trek history still pretty much boiled down to a single onscreen battle between a few dozen ships and a very limited number of locations.

Quote from: J ArcaneMan, a war that in one way or another affected almost every country on the planet, and had a whole continent and a whole ocean (and our biggest too) engulfed in the flames of war, seems pretty goddamn epic to me.

Even the Dominion War and Wolf 359 were positively small potatoes comparitively.  The consequence of a TV budget, that the biggest conflicts in Star Trek history still pretty much boiled down to a single onscreen battle between a few dozen ships and a very limited number of locations.

its not about the wars in Star Trek, it about the scope of the universe,
the movies and thousands of shows, each adding and explanding the universe, think of all the tech (who does know warp drive, photon torps, phaser etc) the aliens (vulcans, klingons, romulans etc) it's got scope most take for granted, yet how many other sci/fi settings do people know in such detail?,

Quote from: pathfinderapits not about the wars in Star Trek, it about the scope of the universe,
the movies and thousands of shows, each adding and explanding the universe, think of all the tech (who does know warp drive, photon torps, phaser etc) the aliens (vulcans, klingons, romulans etc) it's got scope most take for granted, yet how many other sci/fi settings do people know in such detail?,

I think the disconnect is this: I agree that the setting has the potential to be Epic in every sense of the word. The stories typically told, and thus the feel of the setting as presented, however, is much more grounded in the individual level, the not epic.  It's a different style.  

Let me see if I can contrast a bit. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker is less a character than an Avatar of type. The Young Hero. His Father is nothing less than the leader of his enemies (at least on screen for two movies...). He is 'The Last Of His Kind'.  He's a collection of tropes and ideals. What kind of guy IS Luke?  We really don't know. We can tell you a bit about the adolescent he was at the start, but by the end of the trilogy he had become 'the Last Jedi' who would do what was right... because it was expected of him.  

In Star Trek, Data looks for his emotions, sleeps with Tasha Yar when drunk and explores what makes him different from humanity. Picard's history, his solutions to problems, his personality are all laid bare.  The interactions between Kirk, Spock and McCoy are more important to the viewer than the plot du jour.  The storytelling revolves around exploring the characters and their interactions far more than it does the 'grand stage' of the galaxy.


It is accepted fact that Fading Suns is written like an old fashioned Passion Play.  Taken at face value, that means that many of the idividuals we meet in the books, and by extension our characters, are nothing more than tropes. Avatars of fiction. So and so is 'Dashing Noble swordsman', that over there is the 'Proud, unbroken Savage Alien'.  That guy over there? He may be human, but he's the personification of Death in this tale.  That is the difference between Epic and... there has to be a better word than 'not-epic'... and I probably know it, I just can't think of it to save my life!

I understand what you are saying,

but we have a diffrent point of view not based on the subject matter,(star trek, etc) but how we percive it, we would both have to see "epic" in the same way, to agree that the same subjects are epic, if you get my meaning

Quote from: SpikeIf I was a smarter intarweb geek and at all organized I'd have a file of quotes that other people have used to pull out for this argument. Instead I use my memory.

Fading Suns is admittedly a kitchen sink derivative setting. There is dune, there is 40k. There is the weird fuedal setting technology issue thing.

The thing of it is: It works, like a champ, like a monster. It's a kitchen sink that takes all that other stuff (lightsabers!!!!) and makes it all work together without feeling kludged together. It OWNS all of it's source material, is internally and externally coherent.   Nobles use technology, but mostly don't know how it works. They get indulgences from the church, which is a political move because the church needs the nobles and the nobles need the church. The third leg is the guilds, the technologist, who have power because they DO know how all that crap works, and nobody wants to give it all up.

Is the back story dull to read? I don't know, i didn't find it so.  But you don't need to remember every detail. I could sum up the majority of the 'history' in a few lines, all anyone needs to really run the game, much less play in it.

You say Dune is your dream Epic Space setting, Fading Suns does Dune, right down to Prana Bindu and jump ships (sort of... Jump gates) and precognition and sheild fighting. You say Star Wars is your Epic Space, I've got your lightsabers and your telekinetic mystics.  You say 40k is your Epic Space? I've got your Brother Battle in power armor vs. buglike aliens, right along side Imperial Legions fighting a doomed battle and a larger than life Emperor guiding mankind to a brighter future, and an oppressive theocractic church burning heretics in the streets.  You say you Epic Space involves Massive Fleet battles? Got 'em.  Pirates and space vikings? Got 'em.  Massive four armed wookie aliens? Got 'em. Blood sucking bug me? Got 'em. Precursor aliens and wierd ancient artifacts that are beyond modern science? Got 'em.

Not saying its necessarily for everyone, but Epic? Got it in spades and then some. It does Epic so hard your grandchildren feel it RIght Now!

FS is really nothing like Dune or Star Wars, except on the most superficial level.

Quote from: signoftheserpentFS is really nothing like Dune or Star Wars, except on the most superficial level.

I thought it was alot like Dune, with its personal shields, and houses, and politics etc, but than again, I never did get around to playing this,

>,<

Well thanks, Spike. I really needed to put yet another thing on the list of stuff to purchase via the internet. And an old game with loads of sourcebooks besides!


Seriously. That's awesome as hell. I've flipped through it before but never really got into it. And now I have to find it space in my boxes (very limited storage room for gamebooks ATM), locate the books at good discount, get them ordered and shipped....

Well, CA, I know that the books are still being published. I think the new publisher is 'Red Brick' or something like that. I don't think Holistic is still putting out new sourcebooks, which can be a blessing.

My LGS carries a fair amount of FS stuff, as I suspect others do as well.

You want Epic?

 Hows this for "EPIC" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHpMAubwfQg&mode=related&search=
"Its Been Five Years" by Tom Smith

 Yeah its a Babylon 5 video.

Or maybe THIS is your idea of epic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5a1ax6Jxzg
"Let The Day Begin" BSG video thats in my sig

 What game system you choose maybe doesn't really matter.
 For me it would be GURPS:SPACE  or GURPS:TRAVELLER
Fifteen years ago it might have been STAR TREK:THE RPG or classic TRAVELLER.

 To me an "epic" space campaign means BIG things and events HAPPEN!.  Empires are defeated or saved, assassinations stopped , major battles stopped or won, celebrated with parties and wholkesome orgiues of giddy naked fun. (!!)

Not really a function of a game system that sort of thing.

 More its how a GM plans out the story and how the players go for the gusto in the game.

- Ed C.

Seeing as I own seasons 2-5 of Babylon 5 I have to agree that in some ways it is a very Epic setting... using the standards I was arguing before.  We explore any setting through the eyes of characters, and while the characters of Bab5 are right up front being characters the story being told is nothing less than the growth of humanity(as a whole) from childhood to adolescence, with the promise of eventual adulthood.   Empires rise and fall during the scope of the show.

I can not speak for the new BSG, of course, but we are talking about a show based on a nearly biblical exodus of the last survivors of Man. And in the new series I believe the arc includes the subtext that we are being destroyed by our own creations... that is to say, brought down by our own Hubris.


To play Devils Advocate, however... B5 is also intensely character driven and many of the stories told are too personal to keep the Epic feel. Only once you buy into J. Micheal's conceit that these characters are the heroes of future myth can you justify calling their adventures 'epic'.  

BSG... well, from what I know, which is to say very little, the characters, the heroes, they have flaws certainly. Epic stories need epic heroes. Epic heroes need epic flaws. Hubris, rather than mere pride, for example. Titanic rages that destroy loved ones...  BSG's heroes have mortal flaws, things that are mere quirks in Epic stories. Drinks too much? Not Epic.

Just my take from the pulpit...

Being so Prideful that you corrupt an entire world just by setting foot on it.

FS is all about the epic!