I will say Esper Genesis could use a slight bit of additional editing.

I found the cutoff points between various bits a little lacking.  Like the end of one class and the start of the next.  These happen in the middle of a column, using the same color text, just slightly increased in size. 

Example, going from the Engineer class to the Mesmer class on the basic edition page 22.  At first I thought Mesmer was just the next power or ability of the Engineer, but I had to do a double take.  Mesmer was the title of the next class.

Come on.  At least make it obvious.  Say, "Mesmer Class" instead of "Mesmer", because Mesmer means nothing to anybody new, or change the font, or the color of the font, or all of the above. 

Yup, I'm nitpicking, but maybe it will help somebody else. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 12:10:02 PMI will say Esper Genesis could use a slight bit of additional editing.

I found the cutoff points between various bits a little lacking.  Like the end of one class and the start of the next.  These happen in the middle of a column, using the same color text, just slightly increased in size. 

Example, going from the Engineer class to the Mesmer class on the basic edition page 22.  At first I thought Mesmer was just the next power or ability of the Engineer, but I had to do a double take.  Mesmer was the title of the next class.

Come on.  At least make it obvious.  Say, "Mesmer Class" instead of "Mesmer", because Mesmer means nothing to anybody new, or change the font, or the color of the font, or all of the above. 

Yup, I'm nitpicking, but maybe it will help somebody else. 

You know that list of 5e derivatives?  Yeah... I own all of those... ...and others... X|

FTR, I was looking into being a third party content creator for 5E so I got them for research but I don't think that excuse really redeems me but it is what it is.

Most of the 5E derivatives aren't better than the original PHB by WOTC and most are worse.  (Also, a lot of the changes in a lot of these were obviously not play tested.)  IMO, a more stripped down version of 5E is the way to go.  Five Torches Deep is the closest to what I think as to what would be an optimized version for what is available on the market.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 09:43:13 AMOk, a lot of good stuff in here now.  Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!

Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of.  The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free.  It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars. 

DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0.

It's not really 5e based, is it? Seems more BX & 2e based, if anything.

Quote from: S'mon on November 25, 2024, 03:28:31 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 09:43:13 AMOk, a lot of good stuff in here now.  Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!

Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of.  The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free.  It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars. 

DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0.

It's not really 5e based, is it? Seems more BX & 2e based, if anything.

That's correct.

It's really a question of what our hypothetical 5e player wants out of their 5e replacement. For a lot of people, anything that observes the basic D&D structure might as well be the same game. If it has the superficial features they want, they won't care and might not even be able to identify what edition it's based on.

I thought of Tales of Argosa mainly because it has the higher class count, including the monk and artificer (and "rogue" instead of "thief"). A 5e player would probably still miss the sorcerer and warlock, but better for them than going straight down to the OSR standard four. I'd have said Hyperborea, which has even more classes, but a 5e player probably isn't going to accept a human-only game with THAC0. It also has a short rest/long rest mechanic, and a similar powers-based class structure. A few of the things that are different I think would appeal to the 5e play style, such as the party bonds table and going from a per-day power economy to a per-adventure one. Plus you can't argue with free.

Really BadApple had the right answer. If you want "5e but not 5e", your best bet is going to be something off the 5e SRD. I just didn't know about any of the games he listed other than AIME. 

Quote from: consolcwby on November 23, 2024, 10:47:23 PMWell, there's Fantasy Craft: I've never played it, but it seemed to be a thing a few years ago, especially with some of the users here.

As a player, I love Fantasy Craft, but our GM found it to be a handful to run. Not sure how well it resembles 5E.

I guess some info on what makes an RPG a 5E clone might be helpful.

1.  Same setup as any other D&D clone. Six ability scores, armor class, 1D20 based combat.  That's a given, really, but I'll mention it.

2.  Weapon and armor traits.  Things like short swords being "Versatile" and thus good for dexterous characters, or heavy armor capping your dexterity bonus. 

3.  Sub-classes at level 3. 

The game I mentioned, Olde Swords Reign, only has two out of three, so it may not be the closest game to 5E.  However, I like it because it's not.  I'm not a D&D guy.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 26, 2024, 08:32:54 AM2.  Weapon and armor traits.  Things like short swords being "Versatile" and thus good for dexterous characters, or heavy armor capping your dexterity bonus. 

Oh yeah, I forgot. Tales of Argosa has an interesting version of that. Weapons get a special effect (wounding, push, disarm, etc) that occurs when a 19 is rolled on the attack.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 26, 2024, 08:32:54 AMI guess some info on what makes an RPG a 5E clone might be helpful.

1.  Same setup as any other D&D clone. Six ability scores, armor class, 1D20 based combat.  That's a given, really, but I'll mention it.

2.  Weapon and armor traits.  Things like short swords being "Versatile" and thus good for dexterous characters, or heavy armor capping your dexterity bonus. 

3.  Sub-classes at level 3. 

The game I mentioned, Olde Swords Reign, only has two out of three, so it may not be the closest game to 5E.  However, I like it because it's not.  I'm not a D&D guy.

Shadowdark has 1 & 2, but not 3. Technically only daggers are Finesse in the Core rules, not shortswords, but scimitars in Cursed Scroll 2 are also Finesse.

Kobold Press's Tales of the Valiant is basically 5e but not 5e.

Quote from: Nobleshield on November 26, 2024, 12:55:44 PMKobold Press's Tales of the Valiant is basically 5e but not 5e.

It's a variant of 5e run by a competent company.

Level-Up: Advanced 5e has some nifty rules and refinements for 5e. I like the combat maneuvers/styles.

https://www.levelup5e.com/

One must ask oneself *why* exactly you don't want to buy from WotC? And as mentioned already, what constitutes close?

If it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.

If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.

Most of the games mentioned thus far aren't really all that close to 5e IMO. "What's your favorite non-D&D d20 system?" is a very different answer than "what's the best non-WotC version of 5e"

Quote from: Festus on November 26, 2024, 10:59:46 PMIf it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.
If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.

To me Kobold Press seems a fair bit less woke than WoTC, ENW, or Paizo. You will get some Woke stuff from them and some non-Woke stuff.

Shadowdark is a good bet if you want to avoid Woke (or any) politics in the official material. You will see plenty of Woke in SD third party products (eg I just bought Letter From the Dark 4 by Chris Powell, Keep on the Borderlands with an anti-Colonialism disclaimer *sigh*) but there are un-Woke 3PPs too (eg the Shucked Oyster Kickstarter), Kelsey Dionne treats them all alike.

At this point, I would take the SRD and simply add my own stuff.  The SRD is fully playable without any other material.  It is free and licensed under CC now.

The point of any other SRD based clone would be for some other purpose than to play classic fantasy D&D.  It may be to tweak it for some other type of setting, adding some other play experience, or add some form of alternative PC development options.

Shadowdark and Five Torches Deep both reduce the power creep of base 5E, a chief complaint of many people that use the system.  Ultra Modern Redux offers both alternative PC development paths and some expanded rules for vehicles and equipment.  Carbon 2185 adds hacking rules and computer networking.  Other than that, every other 5E clone I've looked at is little more than refluffing.

There was Stan Shinn's Dungeonesque that was released early on in 5E's lifecycle.  His product was overpriced and may not have deviated enough from 5E, but I hadn't seen it mentioned in the thread so far.