What game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?

For me I would recommend getting Olde Swords Reign.  It has feats, weapons and armor with traits, but is a simple OSR style game with only 4 races and 4 classes.

It also happens to be free, and a physical book is only $7 or so.

Amazon link to a $7 Olde Swords Reign book

Or download it here.

Olde Swords Reign download page

I am going to say Old School Essentials (OSE) which is a cleaned up version of the B/X rules laid out well.  It runs and plays just like D&D of the eariler years because it is the D&D of earlier years.

Quote from: GhostNinja on November 23, 2024, 09:05:34 PMI am going to say Old School Essentials (OSE) which is a cleaned up version of the B/X rules laid out well.  It runs and plays just like D&D of the eariler years because it is the D&D of earlier years.

Oh, Old School Essentials sort of "won" the OSR scene, or at least got to be a big contender for "The" old school game out there.

However.  Is it a good replacement for 5E?  Does it have the modern features that 5E has?  I would argue that the answer to that is no.  I think OSE is for going back to the old ways.  If you want a modern replacement for the current D&D 5E edition, I wouldn't say OSE is that game.

Well, there's Fantasy Craft: I've never played it, but it seemed to be a thing a few years ago, especially with some of the users here.

Then, there's 13th Age: This is one that always interested me, even though I think D&D 3.0/5 was crap! I think it's the Icons that interest me the most. But I've never played it.

Finally, Worlds Without Number: People used to go on and on about this before it came out. I read it. I didn't understand what the big deal was. But, maybe it's more up your alley, don't know.

Anyway, good luck in your search!

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 23, 2024, 08:58:41 PMWhat game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?

OK being a bit more serious, I'd probably say just go get the free Tales of Argos playtest. It's got 9 classes, including artificer, similar enough class features, and would handle the 5e style of story-focused adventuring better than a lot of OSR games.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 23, 2024, 11:03:52 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 23, 2024, 08:58:41 PMWhat game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?

OK being a bit more serious, I'd probably say just go get the free Tales of Argos playtest. It's got 9 classes, including artificer, similar enough class features, and would handle the 5e style of story-focused adventuring better than a lot of OSR games.

Do you mean tales of Argosa? I got that playtest, wrote an adventure for it, and we are playing it right now. The full version of the game has been released already and physical copies will be available in December after the KS backers get their books this month. We are enjoying the system overall but have decided to home brew initiative rules. They don't work very well.

None of these games really resemble 5e, IMO.

Although some of them are BETTER than 5e...

Maybe Olde Sword Reign is the closest. Still feels a bit rough/unfinished, but overall very good.

If you dont wanna to give money to WotC, but you still WANT 5e for soem reason, I'd advise using the free online SRDs. I ran several campaigns with that.

If you want to play something else, well, depends - what do you like/dislike about 5e?

13th Age has that epic feel.

Argosa has some PC customization without much of the crunch. Same for Shadow of the Demon Lord.

WWN has lots of tools. Fantasy Craft has that 3e feel, even more crunchy and polished.

If you want simpler, BFRPG is the way to go. Etc.

EDIT: for "simplfiied 5e", you have things like Into the unknown, bugbears&borderands, etc. Olde Swrods is a nice one, and it is free.

For a game to be like 5e, I would say it should feature the following:

- A universal d20 roll high mechanic.  No percentile rolls for Thief skills, for example.

- Heroic PCs who are competent at low levels, and who are not easily killed.

So this would disqualify games like OSE and Basic Fantasy, IMO.

The closest game to 5e is Tales of the Valiant.  I really wanted to like this, but the look is too similar to 5e for me.  There seems to be many monstrous playable races, which I disliked about 5e.  But some players like that.

Olde Swords Reign is close to 5e, but more streamlined, and it does seem really good.  I really want to try this game at my table.  A new edition is supposed to come out sometime in 2025.

Shadowdark is somewhat like 5e, mechanics-wise. The Shadowdark Thief is much more competent than an OSE Thief, for example.  Shadowdark is also very simple and intuitive to run at the table.  But the game is much deadlier than 5e, and you will probably encounter much more PC death here than you would in 5e.

I'm not sure if Castles & Crusades is more like 5e, or AD&D.  I haven't played it yet so I don't know how it feels in play.

There is a new game coming out called Dungeon Dwellers, from the Reaper Miniatures company. It seems like a stripped-down 5e, similar to Shadowdark, with a harsher death mechanic than 5e.  The game was Kickstarted earlier this year, and should be out sometime in 2025.

Dungeon Dwellers on Kickstarter

If you want to play 5e but don't want to give WotC money, the D&D 5e Basic rules are free in PDF, and its easy enough to create a physical copy on Lulu or another printing service.  Its a full D&D 5e game, from levels 1-20, but there are only 4 races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling) and 4 classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard, with one subclass each), and no Feats.  Which still makes for a good game.  For some, it may even be a better game than using the full 5e rules.

Similarly, the D&D 5e Essential rules are also free in PDF.  This is the rulebook that came with the D&D Essentials Kit boxed set.  It is very much like the free Basic rules, but it features 5 classes instead of 4 (they add the Bard), and each class has 2 subclasses to choose from, instead of just 1.  So there are extra player choices here.  However, these rules only take PCs to level 6.  Many games don't go past level 6, but if you expect a long-running campaign, you would need to supplement these Essential rules with additional rules from elsewhere.

These free official D&D options are both really good, without the bloat and baggage of the full 5e game, but I can understand if you want to get 100% away from WotC.

I may be teaching "D&D" at a local library next year, and right now I'm considering using either the free D&D Basic or Essential rules to teach noobs the game.  But I'm also considering Shadowdark as well, because of how easy it is to learn and play.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 24, 2024, 08:34:48 AMDo you mean tales of Argosa?

Yeah, that was a typo. My bad.

Castles & Crusades is a good one too. Might have inspired 5e's "proficiency" mechanic. There is a free version.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/09/a-few-thought-on-castles-crusades.html

But it lacks character customization.

This thread kind of confuses me.

5E SRD is a thing and there's so much third party stuff that you never need to give a coin to WOTC.  There is a lot of games using the 5E SRD as a core as well:

Carbon 2185 - 5E but anime cyberpunk (the best presentation of the 5E rules I have ever seen)
Humblewood - 5E but all the PCs are birds
Ultra Modern Redux - 5E but gonzo underground comics
Esper Genesis - 5E but slick modern space opera
The Ruined - 5E but post apocalypse
Black Iron - 5E Sword and sorcery
Adventures in Middle Earth - 5E but more Tolkien

The list goes on and none of it requires paying WOTC at all.

There's two, that I know of, solid rules sets that are heavily based on 5E but not 5E; Five Torches Deep and Shadow Dark.  These are both mostly compatible with other 5E material.

Edit: added a phrase for clarification

I am just going to stick with what I have. Why would I want to buy a damn "clone" all over again?

Either Shadowdark (not actually that lethal, just avoid Kelsey Dionne adventures) or the 2014 5e Basic Rules, would be my recommendations. You can get a nice print copy of the latter on Lulu - https://www.lulu.com/shop/mike-mearls/dd-5e-basic-set-combined-edition/paperback/product-15gke8w9.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqjwi5u0mZGHFqWddN2ByKnKEoohw4VHf3GY2ucYIgxKJpkGSaB

Ok, a lot of good stuff in here now.  Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!

Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of.  The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free.  It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars. 

DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0.

Tales of the Valiant.  I had completely forgotten about this one.  I can't say more as the game, even the PDF, is priced a bit high if you ask me.  It wasn't the 5E killer/go-to replacement game everyone wants. I would argue none of the games created to combat the OGL debacle ever became a clear winner.  Maybe Shadowdark?  Maybe? 

Either way, I'm not going to get Tales of the Valiant because of the cost. 

I also got Esper Genesis just for giggles.  Well, their 3.0 test rules is what I got to be honest. 

Esper Genesis free demo rules on DTRPG

I haven't read thru it too much, but it's the classic D&D "In Spaaaaaace" idea.  Vancian slot magic/ESP and all.   I didn't see a Jedi Knight equivalent, though.  You always need to check for that. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 09:43:13 AMOk, a lot of good stuff in here now.  Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!

Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of.  The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free.  It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars. 

DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0.

Tales of the Valiant.  I had completely forgotten about this one.  I can't say more as the game, even the PDF, is priced a bit high if you ask me.  It wasn't the 5E killer/go-to replacement game everyone wants. I would argue none of the games created to combat the OGL debacle ever became a clear winner.  Maybe Shadowdark?  Maybe? 

Either way, I'm not going to get Tales of the Valiant because of the cost. 

I also got Esper Genesis just for giggles.  Well, their 3.0 test rules is what I got to be honest. 

Esper Genesis free demo rules on DTRPG

I haven't read thru it too much, but it's the classic D&D "In Spaaaaaace" idea.  Vancian slot magic/ESP and all.   I didn't see a Jedi Knight equivalent, though.  You always need to check for that.

Yes, this is literally 5e with some title changes, descriptions, and new art.  The ESP abilities list is nothing more than renaming the normal spells list.