What game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?
For me I would recommend getting Olde Swords Reign. It has feats, weapons and armor with traits, but is a simple OSR style game with only 4 races and 4 classes.
It also happens to be free, and a physical book is only $7 or so.
Amazon link to a $7 Olde Swords Reign book (https://www.amazon.com/Olde-Swords-Reign-Complete-adventure/dp/B0B7QTTS5T/ref=sr_1_1?crid=23R9JU91YZ0ZO&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.q6JdV1eyCiFbQckOoKp0GWeICXrP0_8srJQ63D1cxlaTEVFkmUDl0s_QQvO_20DKXRDULQtHEcHG1GErNbe28g.TEDMPgiOChnQC8_YQdU1z8WWq1FcJze0ze5mN3ZZgpE&dib_tag=se&keywords=old+swords+reign+rpg&qid=1732413366&sprefix=old+swords%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-1)
Or download it here.
Olde Swords Reign download page (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OyDASjG8Xf_PCJUjXHdDtIO1sWveZaKx)
I am going to say Old School Essentials (OSE) which is a cleaned up version of the B/X rules laid out well. It runs and plays just like D&D of the eariler years because it is the D&D of earlier years.
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 23, 2024, 09:05:34 PMI am going to say Old School Essentials (OSE) which is a cleaned up version of the B/X rules laid out well. It runs and plays just like D&D of the eariler years because it is the D&D of earlier years.
Oh, Old School Essentials sort of "won" the OSR scene, or at least got to be a big contender for "The" old school game out there.
However. Is it a good replacement for 5E? Does it have the modern features that 5E has? I would argue that the answer to that is no. I think OSE is for going back to the old ways. If you want a modern replacement for the current D&D 5E edition, I wouldn't say OSE is that game.
Well, there's Fantasy Craft (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/63884/fantasy-craft-second-printing): I've never played it, but it seemed to be a thing a few years ago, especially with some of the users here.
Then, there's 13th Age (https://www.13thagesrd.com/): This is one that always interested me, even though I think D&D 3.0/5 was crap! I think it's the Icons that interest me the most. But I've never played it.
Finally, Worlds Without Number (https://sine-nomine-publishing.myshopify.com/collections/worlds-without-number/products/worlds-without-number-deluxe-pdf): People used to go on and on about this before it came out. I read it. I didn't understand what the big deal was. But, maybe it's more up your alley, don't know.
Anyway, good luck in your search! :)
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 23, 2024, 08:58:41 PMWhat game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?
(https://pa1.aminoapps.com/6385/a604330b4b2716e5db0e74e3168ee8b2f8179ce9_hq.gif)
OK being a bit more serious, I'd probably say just go get the free Tales of Argos playtest. It's got 9 classes, including artificer, similar enough class features, and would handle the 5e style of story-focused adventuring better than a lot of OSR games.
Quote from: ForgottenF on November 23, 2024, 11:03:52 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on November 23, 2024, 08:58:41 PMWhat game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?
(https://pa1.aminoapps.com/6385/a604330b4b2716e5db0e74e3168ee8b2f8179ce9_hq.gif)
OK being a bit more serious, I'd probably say just go get the free Tales of Argos playtest. It's got 9 classes, including artificer, similar enough class features, and would handle the 5e style of story-focused adventuring better than a lot of OSR games.
Do you mean tales of Argosa? I got that playtest, wrote an adventure for it, and we are playing it right now. The full version of the game has been released already and physical copies will be available in December after the KS backers get their books this month. We are enjoying the system overall but have decided to home brew initiative rules. They don't work very well.
None of these games really resemble 5e, IMO.
Although some of them are BETTER than 5e...
Maybe Olde Sword Reign is the closest. Still feels a bit rough/unfinished, but overall very good.
If you dont wanna to give money to WotC, but you still WANT 5e for soem reason, I'd advise using the free online SRDs. I ran several campaigns with that.
If you want to play something else, well, depends - what do you like/dislike about 5e?
13th Age has that epic feel.
Argosa has some PC customization without much of the crunch. Same for Shadow of the Demon Lord.
WWN has lots of tools. Fantasy Craft has that 3e feel, even more crunchy and polished.
If you want simpler, BFRPG is the way to go. Etc.
EDIT: for "simplfiied 5e", you have things like Into the unknown, bugbears&borderands, etc. Olde Swrods is a nice one, and it is free.
For a game to be like 5e, I would say it should feature the following:
- A universal d20 roll high mechanic. No percentile rolls for Thief skills, for example.
- Heroic PCs who are competent at low levels, and who are not easily killed.
So this would disqualify games like OSE and Basic Fantasy, IMO.
The closest game to 5e is Tales of the Valiant. I really wanted to like this, but the look is too similar to 5e for me. There seems to be many monstrous playable races, which I disliked about 5e. But some players like that.
Olde Swords Reign is close to 5e, but more streamlined, and it does seem really good. I really want to try this game at my table. A new edition is supposed to come out sometime in 2025.
Shadowdark is somewhat like 5e, mechanics-wise. The Shadowdark Thief is much more competent than an OSE Thief, for example. Shadowdark is also very simple and intuitive to run at the table. But the game is much deadlier than 5e, and you will probably encounter much more PC death here than you would in 5e.
I'm not sure if Castles & Crusades is more like 5e, or AD&D. I haven't played it yet so I don't know how it feels in play.
There is a new game coming out called Dungeon Dwellers, from the Reaper Miniatures company. It seems like a stripped-down 5e, similar to Shadowdark, with a harsher death mechanic than 5e. The game was Kickstarted earlier this year, and should be out sometime in 2025.
Dungeon Dwellers on Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reaperddrpg/reaper-miniatures-dungeon-dwellers-roleplaying-game/description)
If you want to play 5e but don't want to give WotC money, the D&D 5e Basic rules are free in PDF, and its easy enough to create a physical copy on Lulu or another printing service. Its a full D&D 5e game, from levels 1-20, but there are only 4 races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling) and 4 classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard, with one subclass each), and no Feats. Which still makes for a good game. For some, it may even be a better game than using the full 5e rules.
Similarly, the D&D 5e Essential rules are also free in PDF. This is the rulebook that came with the D&D Essentials Kit boxed set. It is very much like the free Basic rules, but it features 5 classes instead of 4 (they add the Bard), and each class has 2 subclasses to choose from, instead of just 1. So there are extra player choices here. However, these rules only take PCs to level 6. Many games don't go past level 6, but if you expect a long-running campaign, you would need to supplement these Essential rules with additional rules from elsewhere.
These free official D&D options are both really good, without the bloat and baggage of the full 5e game, but I can understand if you want to get 100% away from WotC.
I may be teaching "D&D" at a local library next year, and right now I'm considering using either the free D&D Basic or Essential rules to teach noobs the game. But I'm also considering Shadowdark as well, because of how easy it is to learn and play.
Castles & Crusades is a good one too. Might have inspired 5e's "proficiency" mechanic. There is a free version.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/09/a-few-thought-on-castles-crusades.html
But it lacks character customization.
This thread kind of confuses me.
5E SRD is a thing and there's so much third party stuff that you never need to give a coin to WOTC. There is a lot of games using the 5E SRD as a core as well:
Carbon 2185 - 5E but anime cyberpunk (the best presentation of the 5E rules I have ever seen)
Humblewood - 5E but all the PCs are birds
Ultra Modern Redux - 5E but gonzo underground comics
Esper Genesis - 5E but slick modern space opera
The Ruined - 5E but post apocalypse
Black Iron - 5E Sword and sorcery
Adventures in Middle Earth - 5E but more Tolkien
The list goes on and none of it requires paying WOTC at all.
There's two, that I know of, solid rules sets that are heavily based on 5E but not 5E; Five Torches Deep and Shadow Dark. These are both mostly compatible with other 5E material.
Edit: added a phrase for clarification
I am just going to stick with what I have. Why would I want to buy a damn "clone" all over again?
Either Shadowdark (not actually that lethal, just avoid Kelsey Dionne adventures) :D or the 2014 5e Basic Rules, would be my recommendations. You can get a nice print copy of the latter on Lulu - https://www.lulu.com/shop/mike-mearls/dd-5e-basic-set-combined-edition/paperback/product-15gke8w9.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqjwi5u0mZGHFqWddN2ByKnKEoohw4VHf3GY2ucYIgxKJpkGSaB
Ok, a lot of good stuff in here now. Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!
Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of. The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free. It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars.
DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/465681/tales-of-argosa-public-playtest)
Tales of the Valiant. I had completely forgotten about this one. I can't say more as the game, even the PDF, is priced a bit high if you ask me. It wasn't the 5E killer/go-to replacement game everyone wants. I would argue none of the games created to combat the OGL debacle ever became a clear winner. Maybe Shadowdark? Maybe?
Either way, I'm not going to get Tales of the Valiant because of the cost.
I also got Esper Genesis just for giggles. Well, their 3.0 test rules is what I got to be honest.
Esper Genesis free demo rules on DTRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/220027/esper-genesis-basic-rules?affiliate_id=393950)
I haven't read thru it too much, but it's the classic D&D "In Spaaaaaace" idea. Vancian slot magic/ESP and all. I didn't see a Jedi Knight equivalent, though. You always need to check for that.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 09:43:13 AMOk, a lot of good stuff in here now. Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!
Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of. The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free. It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars.
DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/465681/tales-of-argosa-public-playtest)
Tales of the Valiant. I had completely forgotten about this one. I can't say more as the game, even the PDF, is priced a bit high if you ask me. It wasn't the 5E killer/go-to replacement game everyone wants. I would argue none of the games created to combat the OGL debacle ever became a clear winner. Maybe Shadowdark? Maybe?
Either way, I'm not going to get Tales of the Valiant because of the cost.
I also got Esper Genesis just for giggles. Well, their 3.0 test rules is what I got to be honest.
Esper Genesis free demo rules on DTRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/220027/esper-genesis-basic-rules?affiliate_id=393950)
I haven't read thru it too much, but it's the classic D&D "In Spaaaaaace" idea. Vancian slot magic/ESP and all. I didn't see a Jedi Knight equivalent, though. You always need to check for that.
Yes, this is literally 5e with some title changes, descriptions, and new art. The ESP abilities list is nothing more than renaming the normal spells list.
I will say Esper Genesis could use a slight bit of additional editing.
I found the cutoff points between various bits a little lacking. Like the end of one class and the start of the next. These happen in the middle of a column, using the same color text, just slightly increased in size.
Example, going from the Engineer class to the Mesmer class on the basic edition page 22. At first I thought Mesmer was just the next power or ability of the Engineer, but I had to do a double take. Mesmer was the title of the next class.
Come on. At least make it obvious. Say, "Mesmer Class" instead of "Mesmer", because Mesmer means nothing to anybody new, or change the font, or the color of the font, or all of the above.
Yup, I'm nitpicking, but maybe it will help somebody else.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 12:10:02 PMI will say Esper Genesis could use a slight bit of additional editing.
I found the cutoff points between various bits a little lacking. Like the end of one class and the start of the next. These happen in the middle of a column, using the same color text, just slightly increased in size.
Example, going from the Engineer class to the Mesmer class on the basic edition page 22. At first I thought Mesmer was just the next power or ability of the Engineer, but I had to do a double take. Mesmer was the title of the next class.
Come on. At least make it obvious. Say, "Mesmer Class" instead of "Mesmer", because Mesmer means nothing to anybody new, or change the font, or the color of the font, or all of the above.
Yup, I'm nitpicking, but maybe it will help somebody else.
You know that list of 5e derivatives? Yeah... I own all of those... ...and others... X|
FTR, I was looking into being a third party content creator for 5E so I got them for research but I don't think that excuse really redeems me but it is what it is.
Most of the 5E derivatives aren't better than the original PHB by WOTC and most are worse. (Also, a lot of the changes in a lot of these were obviously not play tested.) IMO, a more stripped down version of 5E is the way to go. Five Torches Deep is the closest to what I think as to what would be an optimized version for what is available on the market.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 09:43:13 AMOk, a lot of good stuff in here now. Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!
Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of. The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free. It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars.
DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/465681/tales-of-argosa-public-playtest)
It's not really 5e based, is it? Seems more BX & 2e based, if anything.
Quote from: S'mon on November 25, 2024, 03:28:31 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on November 25, 2024, 09:43:13 AMOk, a lot of good stuff in here now. Let me comment on a few, but so far you guys delivered. Thanks!
Tales of Argosa I had never even heard of. The good news is that they still have a beta test copy online if you want to check it out for free. It's up on Drivethru for zero dollars.
DTRPG -Tales of Argosa public test for $0. (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/465681/tales-of-argosa-public-playtest)
It's not really 5e based, is it? Seems more BX & 2e based, if anything.
That's correct.
It's really a question of what our hypothetical 5e player wants out of their 5e replacement. For a lot of people, anything that observes the basic D&D structure might as well be the same game. If it has the superficial features they want, they won't care and might not even be able to identify what edition it's based on.
I thought of Tales of Argosa mainly because it has the higher class count, including the monk and artificer (and "rogue" instead of "thief"). A 5e player would probably still miss the sorcerer and warlock, but better for them than going straight down to the OSR standard four. I'd have said Hyperborea, which has even more classes, but a 5e player probably isn't going to accept a human-only game with THAC0. It also has a short rest/long rest mechanic, and a similar powers-based class structure. A few of the things that are different I think would appeal to the 5e play style, such as the party bonds table and going from a per-day power economy to a per-adventure one. Plus you can't argue with free.
Really BadApple had the right answer. If you want "5e but not 5e", your best bet is going to be something off the 5e SRD. I just didn't know about any of the games he listed other than AIME.
Quote from: consolcwby on November 23, 2024, 10:47:23 PMWell, there's Fantasy Craft (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/63884/fantasy-craft-second-printing): I've never played it, but it seemed to be a thing a few years ago, especially with some of the users here.
As a player, I love Fantasy Craft, but our GM found it to be a handful to run. Not sure how well it resembles 5E.
I guess some info on what makes an RPG a 5E clone might be helpful.
1. Same setup as any other D&D clone. Six ability scores, armor class, 1D20 based combat. That's a given, really, but I'll mention it.
2. Weapon and armor traits. Things like short swords being "Versatile" and thus good for dexterous characters, or heavy armor capping your dexterity bonus.
3. Sub-classes at level 3.
The game I mentioned, Olde Swords Reign, only has two out of three, so it may not be the closest game to 5E. However, I like it because it's not. I'm not a D&D guy.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 26, 2024, 08:32:54 AM2. Weapon and armor traits. Things like short swords being "Versatile" and thus good for dexterous characters, or heavy armor capping your dexterity bonus.
Oh yeah, I forgot. Tales of Argosa has an interesting version of that. Weapons get a special effect (wounding, push, disarm, etc) that occurs when a 19 is rolled on the attack.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 26, 2024, 08:32:54 AMI guess some info on what makes an RPG a 5E clone might be helpful.
1. Same setup as any other D&D clone. Six ability scores, armor class, 1D20 based combat. That's a given, really, but I'll mention it.
2. Weapon and armor traits. Things like short swords being "Versatile" and thus good for dexterous characters, or heavy armor capping your dexterity bonus.
3. Sub-classes at level 3.
The game I mentioned, Olde Swords Reign, only has two out of three, so it may not be the closest game to 5E. However, I like it because it's not. I'm not a D&D guy.
Shadowdark has 1 & 2, but not 3. Technically only daggers are Finesse in the Core rules, not shortswords, but scimitars in Cursed Scroll 2 are also Finesse.
Kobold Press's Tales of the Valiant is basically 5e but not 5e.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 26, 2024, 12:55:44 PMKobold Press's Tales of the Valiant is basically 5e but not 5e.
It's a variant of 5e run by a competent company.
Level-Up: Advanced 5e has some nifty rules and refinements for 5e. I like the combat maneuvers/styles.
https://www.levelup5e.com/
One must ask oneself *why* exactly you don't want to buy from WotC? And as mentioned already, what constitutes close?
If it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.
If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.
Most of the games mentioned thus far aren't really all that close to 5e IMO. "What's your favorite non-D&D d20 system?" is a very different answer than "what's the best non-WotC version of 5e"
Quote from: Festus on November 26, 2024, 10:59:46 PMIf it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.
If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.
To me Kobold Press seems a fair bit less woke than WoTC, ENW, or Paizo. You will get some Woke stuff from them and some non-Woke stuff.
Shadowdark is a good bet if you want to avoid Woke (or any) politics in the official material. You will see plenty of Woke in SD third party products (eg I just bought Letter From the Dark 4 by Chris Powell, Keep on the Borderlands with an anti-Colonialism disclaimer *sigh*) but there are un-Woke 3PPs too (eg the Shucked Oyster Kickstarter), Kelsey Dionne treats them all alike.
At this point, I would take the SRD and simply add my own stuff. The SRD is fully playable without any other material. It is free and licensed under CC now.
The point of any other SRD based clone would be for some other purpose than to play classic fantasy D&D. It may be to tweak it for some other type of setting, adding some other play experience, or add some form of alternative PC development options.
Shadowdark and Five Torches Deep both reduce the power creep of base 5E, a chief complaint of many people that use the system. Ultra Modern Redux offers both alternative PC development paths and some expanded rules for vehicles and equipment. Carbon 2185 adds hacking rules and computer networking. Other than that, every other 5E clone I've looked at is little more than refluffing.
There was Stan Shinn's Dungeonesque that was released early on in 5E's lifecycle. His product was overpriced and may not have deviated enough from 5E, but I hadn't seen it mentioned in the thread so far.
Quote from: S'mon on November 27, 2024, 05:30:23 AMQuote from: Festus on November 26, 2024, 10:59:46 PMIf it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.
If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.
To me Kobold Press seems a fair bit less woke than WoTC, ENW, or Paizo. You will get some Woke stuff from them and some non-Woke stuff.
Kobold Press didn't seem overtly woke. TotV did have a section on safety tools but their X account doesn't have any weird pro-LGBT nonsense (not like paizo/wotc, there was no kobold wearing pride colors for pride month for example) that I could tell. They do have diverse people on staff (the guy who does their streams is he/they pronouns IIRC) but like it doesn't seem being shoved down people's throats like WotC or Paizo. So as far as I can tell they are "diverse" but not "woke" which I personally don't have an issue with.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 27, 2024, 09:12:59 AMQuote from: S'mon on November 27, 2024, 05:30:23 AMQuote from: Festus on November 26, 2024, 10:59:46 PMIf it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.
If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.
To me Kobold Press seems a fair bit less woke than WoTC, ENW, or Paizo. You will get some Woke stuff from them and some non-Woke stuff.
Kobold Press didn't seem overtly woke. TotV did have a section on safety tools but their X account doesn't have any weird pro-LGBT nonsense (not like paizo/wotc, there was no kobold wearing pride colors for pride month for example) that I could tell. They do have diverse people on staff (the guy who does their streams is he/they pronouns IIRC) but like it doesn't seem being shoved down people's throats like WotC or Paizo. So as far as I can tell they are "diverse" but not "woke" which I personally don't have an issue with.
Is Tales of the Valiant 100% compatible, with their excellent Tome of Beasts and Creature Codex releases for 5E?
Quote from: Man at Arms on November 27, 2024, 02:22:10 PMQuote from: Nobleshield on November 27, 2024, 09:12:59 AMQuote from: S'mon on November 27, 2024, 05:30:23 AMQuote from: Festus on November 26, 2024, 10:59:46 PMIf it's WotC's business practices (poor quality, OGL bs, AI bs, etc.) then either Level Up Advanced 5e from ENWorld or Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press are very similar and in ways superior versions of 5e.
If your issue is WotC's wokeness, you may not find Kobold or ENWorld to be much different.
To me Kobold Press seems a fair bit less woke than WoTC, ENW, or Paizo. You will get some Woke stuff from them and some non-Woke stuff.
Kobold Press didn't seem overtly woke. TotV did have a section on safety tools but their X account doesn't have any weird pro-LGBT nonsense (not like paizo/wotc, there was no kobold wearing pride colors for pride month for example) that I could tell. They do have diverse people on staff (the guy who does their streams is he/they pronouns IIRC) but like it doesn't seem being shoved down people's throats like WotC or Paizo. So as far as I can tell they are "diverse" but not "woke" which I personally don't have an issue with.
Is Tales of the Valiant 100% compatible, with their excellent Tome of Beasts and Creature Codex releases for 5E?
Almost. There are a few minor touches to make the monsters TOV compliant. But that is also in a free PDF conversion guide.
So yeah if you just want 5e with a fresh coat of paint and less overt Wokeness, Tales of the Valiant sounds like a fair bet. Certainly the average quality of KP products is vastly vastly better than WoTC material.
My big problem with modern RPGs are the inclusion of so-called "safety tools". Because frankly, they are not. They are a waste of space in the books that could be used for things actually critical to running the game.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 27, 2024, 03:36:00 PMMy big problem with modern RPGs are the inclusion of so-called "safety tools". Because frankly, they are not. They are a waste of space in the books that could be used for things actually critical to running the game.
They are, but personally my #1 issue with them is that they come from the BDSM world. I get why they're included, because there are a lot of weirdos who think that "it's just a game" is carte blanche to have like graphic sex scenes and torture.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 23, 2024, 08:58:41 PMWhat game do you recommend to somebody who wants to play 5E, but not buy official D&D 5E from WotC/Hasbro?
For me I would recommend getting Olde Swords Reign. It has feats, weapons and armor with traits, but is a simple OSR style game with only 4 races and 4 classes.
I would also add 'Into the Unknown' for a 5e game pared down to an OSR style game.
They are cheap enough that you might as well get both. They are very cross compatible, and make for a very complete game at a cheap price. And they will be immediately familiar to 5e players.
Personally - I would not get Five Torches Deep. Just Old swords Reign and Into the Unknown.
And if you get those two; download the Shadowdark QS. You can use its rules for changing casting to a roll if you are so inclined.
Quote from: BadApple on November 24, 2024, 10:22:32 AM... There is a lot of games using the 5E SRD as a core as well:
Carbon 2185 - 5E but anime cyberpunk (the best presentation of the 5E rules I have ever seen)
Humblewood - 5E but all the PCs are birds
Ultra Modern Redux - 5E but gonzo underground comics
Esper Genesis - 5E but slick modern space opera
The Ruined - 5E but post apocalypse
Black Iron - 5E Sword and sorcery
Adventures in Middle Earth - 5E but more Tolkien
The list goes on and none of it requires paying WOTC at all.
...
The problem I have with most 'based on 5e' games, is that they either up the complexity level, are essentially a 5e re-skin, or pare everything down to near B/X levels of simplicity. With nothing in-between.
But I cannot blame people as the general 5e player base prefers re-skins over game overhauls. And those that want the OSR feel want the game taken down to B/X complexity levels.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 27, 2024, 04:23:37 PMQuote from: Darrin Kelley on November 27, 2024, 03:36:00 PMMy big problem with modern RPGs are the inclusion of so-called "safety tools". Because frankly, they are not. They are a waste of space in the books that could be used for things actually critical to running the game.
They are, but personally my #1 issue with them is that they come from the BDSM world. I get why they're included, because there are a lot of weirdos who think that "it's just a game" is carte blanche to have like graphic sex scenes and torture.
Anyone who knows a thing about BSDM and D/S is that torture isn't a part of the experience that real practitioners tolerate. The torture is abuse. Which is frowned on.
D/S is about consent. Giving consent to someone you trust. It isn't about involving random normies in the kink for shock value.
None of this belongs in a tabletop RPG. They are apples and oranges different from each other.
Yes, I have some experience with BDSM and D/S from my days in Second Life. One of the biggest problems there are the amateurs who think they know what those things are about. But end up doing serious harm to others in the process.
The ones pushing this into RPGs do not even understand the source one little bit.
Quote from: BadApple on November 24, 2024, 10:22:32 AMThis thread kind of confuses me.
5E SRD is a thing and there's so much third party stuff that you never need to give a coin to WOTC.
The SRD is nice, but my players and I prefer physical books at the table. I suppose one could print out pages and pages of an SRD and bind them together, but for me its much nicer when a physical book exists. Or at least having a PDF like D&D 5e Basic or D&D 5e Essentials, which can then be uploaded to Lulu to create a professional-looking physical book.
Quote from: Nobleshield on November 27, 2024, 04:23:37 PMQuote from: Darrin Kelley on November 27, 2024, 03:36:00 PMMy big problem with modern RPGs are the inclusion of so-called "safety tools". Because frankly, they are not. They are a waste of space in the books that could be used for things actually critical to running the game.
They are, but personally my #1 issue with them is that they come from the BDSM world. I get why they're included, because there are a lot of weirdos who think that "it's just a game" is carte blanche to have like graphic sex scenes and torture.
I resent safety tools as yet another push towards commodifying, classifying and ultimately systematizing human interactions which should properly be the province of common sense, intuition and experience. It's part of a broader campaign against nuance and human understanding, which serves only to socially retard young people, setting them up for lives of loneliness and misery, and making them far more vulnerable to ideological indoctrination.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 27, 2024, 04:24:33 PMThe problem I have with most 'based on 5e' games, is that they either up the complexity level, are essentially a 5e re-skin, or pare everything down to near B/X levels of simplicity. With nothing in-between.
Agreed in large part. There's nothing wrong with the base skeleton of 5e as a game. I dislike proficiency bonus as a mechanic, but it's hardly a deal breaker. The chief problem is there's just too much of it. Too many races, too many subclasses, too many feats and powers and so on. At the same time, if you want something that plays like an OSR game, why not just play an OSR game? I would however mention Free League's LOTR 5e game as an exception. That does strike me as a middle ground between full 5e bloat and OSR levels of simplicity.
Has the Pundit at some point refused to make his version of the 5e? Given he was one of the consults, his take on the game would be more interesting than some others'.
Quote from: Mrod on November 28, 2024, 02:23:26 PMHas the Pundit at some point refused to make his version of the 5e? Given he was one of the consults, his take on the game would be more interesting than some others'.
It would sure get my attention.
One of my big beefs was the removal of the Consultants from the 5e books. i thought it was very crappy. And then they turned around and filled the credits with do nothing corporate suits and DEI hires instead of actually giving credit for people who actually did the work on developing 5e.
WotC can crash and burn for all I care. They stole Pundit's literary credit from him.
Tales of the Valiant is the closest you're gonna get to "I can't believe it's not 5th edition." I have it's three core books... and it's just, a slight iteration on 2014 5th edition.
And, as much as I fucking hate to say it... Honestly? Just buy the 2024 5th edition rules.
I've bought all the other knock offs out there, 13th Age, Pathfinder 2e, and Tales of the Valiant.
Then I bought the 2024 player's guide so I could check it out for myself.
It's just better than all of the others. I hate it, I hate it...I wish WotC had made the product shitty, I wish it wasn't the best iteration of the 5th edition rules... But it really is. You're wasting your time with the knock offs now in my opinion.
Granted if you don't want "5th edition" feel at all, then go grab something from the OSR like Worlds Without Number.
Well I can think of a few games I'd go towards but not necessarily D20 systems.
The ones on my mind not in any specific order are.
Sword world
The current version is 2.5 and it covers a lot of the ground most people want out of dnd and does some of the things people complain about with dnd.
The konosuba rpg
this was fan translated a few years back I had a copy on my old computer and its solid enough.
It has a baked in humor edge but you can mostly ignore that and play it as a game that fits in the genaric fantasy realm that people claim dnd is.
The log horizon ttrpg
It has a baked in agro system and exhaustion system but gives a bigger swath the konosuba rpg does by default.
the way the game is structured you can strip out the MMO references and more or less run it as a generic system. It has some baked in quarks but is all in all solid.
Mostly I made this post to throw out some options that would be outside of the normal considerations that would normally be found here.
Yeah, Tales of the Valiant would be my go to for a 5e clone. Kobold Press has their own setting for it, they're working on Foundry/Shard/VTT support, publish their own supplements at a decent schedule and are pretty community friendly. It should also require zero tweaks to use any other third party 5e content for ToV as well.
I sort of do own 5E.
I have both free downloadable demo games. I have D&D Basic 2018, and D&D Essentials.
However, I also have Adventures in Rokugan D20 rules. This is probably as close to owning D&D 5E as I'll get. I'm not much for complex rules, but I'm still curious about what goes on with the biggest game in this hobby.
That's why I'm asking. Which game can be a direct replacement for D&D 5E?
The answer seems to be Tales of the Valiant.
I'm not going to get TotV, but it's nice to know.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 30, 2024, 09:11:19 PMI sort of do own 5E.
I have both free downloadable demo games. I have D&D Basic 2018, and D&D Essentials.
However, I also have Adventures in Rokugan D20 rules. This is probably as close to owning D&D 5E as I'll get. I'm not much for complex rules, but I'm still curious about what goes on with the biggest game in this hobby.
That's why I'm asking. Which game can be a direct replacement for D&D 5E?
The answer seems to be Tales of the Valiant.
I'm not going to get TotV, but it's nice to know.
The Game Master's Guide for Tales Of The Valiant is the most complete guide of its type that I have seen. It even contains two kinds of monster creation rules. As well as listings for several Pantheons of gods. It just delivers in every way.
Both of the D&D DMGs do not contain any monster creation rules. And neither does either of the D&D Monster Manuals. WotC just leaves you on your own for monster creation.
Tales of the Valiant PG is $6.99 on Drive-thru RPG, Today only (Mon 2 Dec 2025)