Well I guess Spheres of Annihilation aren't fun either because they shut down PC options too.

But hey - people love 5e and will keep buying their products. Saturation point might hit at some point in the near future... but I wouldn't plan on seeing 6e anytime too soon. It was a mere 5-years between 4e and 5e... and 5e is still going strong.

My take is two things:

1) Because they slow-cook the content release of 5e stuff, it's keeping new and returning GM's cutting their teeth on it at length. Established GM's that have adopted 5e can pretty much create their own content and more likely will convert older material as needed. All of this has been extending the life of this edition *regardless* of what detractors think.

2) The time it will take for the players that *stick* to the hobby will eventually get interested in trying other things out, and this goes for the new/returning GM's as well, but it will take some time. MOST of them that do stay, will stick with D&D as their go-to game as intended. We saw this with previous editions of D&D who got their Tribal Stripes on specific editions. GM's especially. 5e is doing well by all accounts. It has plenty of life left in it and Old GM's support it - those that don't, have long moved away from it. It's the same cycle. When 6e eventually drops... you'll see the 5e die-hards lose their shit, the rest will say "Get over it." And they will form the Neo-OSR and that will be time for a new round of tribal warfare in the name of a system no one agrees on anymore, but keeps buying stuff with the brand on it, or knockoffs that are actually better.

But most of you already know this. It's better to just "wait and see", but I realize it's hard to (and more delicious to talk about) all the obstacles that will likely prevent 5e from being as great as it could have been* much less how 6e won't be any better.

* relative to my subjectivity.

Quote from: KingCheops;1117787Well the straw that broke my back was their rulings on Beholder eye rays.  We ran the beholder fight in Tomb of Annihilation (which I badly messed up but that's a different story) and one of my players asked if they could dispel an eye effect because the barbarian had been charmed for several rounds.  As a group we quickly settled on "determine an equivalent spell and dispel as that."  So we said it was dominate monster and he went ahead and rolled.  I reserved the right to change the house rule pending further rules research later.

Well Crawford says they are neither spells nor spell-like effects therefore you cannot dispel the effects (lol wut?).  Mearls said you can but you use the monster's CR as the spell level (lol wut?).  Neither of these are fun because a) they shut down player options, or b) they make it prohibitively hard.  Also neither ruling seems to take a consistent approach to all the subsystems (which are admittedly not always coherent or the best) already existing in the game.

Crawford has contradicted himself several times in his sage advice (especially in regards to using shields) and has shown he doesn't really know what's in the rule book.  I don't think Mearls was ever really involved given he brought in consultants and doesn't seem to have touched the rules since.

Greetings!

Ah, yes. Good stuff, my friend! Yeah. The Beholder. I admit, I don't pay attention to any "Sage Advice" in the modern era. The last "Sage Advice" I paid attention to was whatever they talked about in Dragon Magazine in the 80's.

Crawford more and more seems entirely out to lunch. Mearls, well, I have to admit, I have never been a big fan of his game design. Even when he was a solo developer, doing Iron Heroes and whatever, his supplements never seemed to work really well with the game system. Oftentimes adding layers of complexity that seemed to me more of a headache than solving some problem, or improving on something.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1117839Mearls has never been competent with the rules of any edition with which he was involved.

In his days as a freelancing OGL spambot, he displayed very little grasp of the 3.xE rules (much like the WotC designers and developers, to be frank). He didn't grok his own incompetent ruleset, Iron Heroes. His 4E products were the worst and he was the only 4E designer who didn't improve over the course of the edition. And the 5E playtesting process revealed he should be ignored until WotC rolled out Rodney Thompson and then the Rainbow Connection to more accurately state what needed to be said.

MM is the mad scientist who clearly comes up with ideas but struggles with implementing them, especially in the context of existing systems. As such, no doubt he's reasonably creative (creative enough to have previously built a living as an OGL spambot) but he's not the guy whose opinion should be sought out or valued. As for the Rainbow Connection getting things wrong, it's 5E and so we are back to the days of AD&D where you really just need to make your own rulings.

Greetings!

*Laughs* Well said, Scrivener of Doom! The "Rainbow Connection!" You are spot on about Mearls, as well. I agree.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: tenbones;1117841Well I guess Spheres of Annihilation aren't fun either because they shut down PC options too.

Generally used as arbitrary gotchas id say few players actually enjoy them in games.

While I think many good things come from ogl, i feel so many of its fans are desperate about preserving the bath water with the baby.

I forgot that the Lyonesse RPG is supposed to launch in 2020.  Unless it is horrible, it is sure to bump the latest D&D back a year or two in my play list.  Along with everything I listed earlier, there just isn't time to do any other new system.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1117856I forgot that the Lyonesse RPG is supposed to launch in 2020.  Unless it is horrible, it is sure to bump the latest D&D back a year or two in my play list.  

  The Design Mechanism has a preview up if you want to get a sense of it.

  I didn't buy into 5E to begin with, am planning to sell off the one book I purchased (Curse of Strahd), and expect 6E's logo to be the rainbow ampersand in an inverted pentagram. I'm probably going with d6 or Savage Worlds as my default, with d100 (Mythras, Revolution or OpenQuest) or HERO System as dark horse candidates. For my D&D fix, I'm intrigued by The Hero's Journey 2E and will see how it unfolds; aside from that, I have 2E as a grab-bag and 4E for when I want a more tactical feel.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1117861I'm probably going with d6 or Savage Worlds as my default, with d100 (Mythras, Revolution or OpenQuest) or HERO System as dark horse candidates.

I am really enjoying my HERO game. I've barely scratched the surface of the system and I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing half the time, but holy cow is it fun and I'd love to see it get more mindshare.

Quote from: tenbones;1117841Well I guess Spheres of Annihilation aren't fun either because they shut down PC options too.

Uh not any differently than a killing blow with a sword or a fireball to the face shut down options.

In terms of why anyone would bother with a new edition in my case it is due to on-boarding 2 new players.  They are okay trying older systems but rule books are easier to get for the latest edition and quite honestly 5e does provide a very easy entry point.  They nailed it on the head with making it accessible.

Since I only have D&D Basic 5e, which is all .pdf, I guess I will have to commit virtual Sati when I am obliged to recycle bin+delete my D&D 5e material upon D&D 6e's arrival. plz play 'Hamster Dance' in memory of me.

I play a few RPGs outside of D&D. Mostly BRP-based stuff: Call of Cthulhu or homebrew fantasy/pseudo-historical stuff (often based on RQ or on a custom set of rules from the BRP Gold Book). My eldest son likes to run Warhammer Fantasy (I think he's running the second edition). For wargaming, it's typically Field of Glory, these days (I have four armies, at the moment: Mid-Republican Romans, Ptolemaic Egyptian, Galatian, and Early Successor States). I'd like to get into L'Art de la Guerre, but I haven't gotten around to it.

Quote from: Razor 007;1117558I have a strong hunch that I won't buy into D&D 6E.  I'm definitely not buying into Pathfinder 2E.  So, the question is; what is the plan?

I haven't bought into any new D&D since 3.5... And I've pretty much abandoned that. I run an OD&D game and play in an AD&D 1e game. I also started a BX game but abandoned it.

Beyond D&D, I actively play RuneQuest 1st ed (1978) and Classic Traveller (using the 1977 rules) and play in L5R 1e and The Fantasy Trip (using the new kick started rules).

If none of those satisfy my needs, I have tons of other games that could be played...

Quote from: KingCheops;1117911Uh not any differently than a killing blow with a sword or a fireball to the face shut down options.

In terms of why anyone would bother with a new edition in my case it is due to on-boarding 2 new players.  They are okay trying older systems but rule books are easier to get for the latest edition and quite honestly 5e does provide a very easy entry point.  They nailed it on the head with making it accessible.

Oh sure I'm just being snarky! (No saves for SoA's buddy!)

I would say this - and I've said this in other threads - while 5e is intensely popular. It's that way because of Brand more than substance. It's what people use. But I'd argue there are better systems that are equally accessible in terms of acquisition (I mean... Amazon... DTRPG etc.) that are arbitrarily better systems that anyone could get into and faster for beginners and GM's alike.

But I get it. D&D is the sun around which everyone in the TTRPG hobby orbits. But I want to maintain this is by choice for those aware, not because of anything else, tradition, popularity and marketing for those that aren't, and not necessarily for quality of design. This is true now. This was true in 1e, and 2e. It will be true when 6e drops.

Quote from: tenbones;1118015But I get it. D&D is the sun around which everyone in the TTRPG hobby orbits. But I want to maintain this is by choice for those aware, not because of anything else, tradition, popularity and marketing for those that aren't, and not necessarily for quality of design. This is true now. This was true in 1e, and 2e. It will be true when 6e drops.

I call it the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Effect. We have no idea why it works, but it does.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118018I call it the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Effect. We have no idea why it works, but it does.

Well, maybe it (D&D) will have its Star Wars moment. Maybe it already has, if I'm an example. It's time for me has come and gone for the exact same reasons. Corporate interests have turned it into something not entirely made for my uses, but theirs. And people consume it and enjoy it. More power to'em.

It'll be interesting to watch the next Edition War. I'll sit that one out, and watch the stands (well you know.. I might toss in some instigation for fun). It's become tradition. And I love me some tradition.

Quote from: tenbones;1118015I would say this - and I've said this in other threads - while 5e is intensely popular. It's that way because of Brand more than substance. It's what people use. But I'd argue there are better systems that are equally accessible in terms of acquisition (I mean... Amazon... DTRPG etc.) that are arbitrarily better systems that anyone could get into and faster for beginners and GM's alike..

QFT

And this has always been my feeling about D&D in general. Mechanically speaking, there are better systems out there than D&D, and many of the things I think helped streamline D&D for the masses since 3e are things that were already present in other systems years for decades.

Pre-3e D&D's roll mechanics were a bloated mess, with a different type of roll for just about every type of thing--ability checks, attack rolls, saves, breaking doors, hearing stuff, using "thieves skills", etc.--EVERYTHING used a different roll. Then 3e came in an streamlined everything under a common core mechanic--BRILLIANT, except that almost every single other RPG already used a common core mechanic and some (such as Cyberpunk 2020/Interlock) even used a simple Die+Modifier mechanic as well. D&D just had to wait for like a decade or two till they also joined the club.

One thing I think has helped 5e in particular is the further simplifying trend in roll mechanics, which eventually led them to entirely drop combat stats (THAC0/Combat Modifier) and saving throws, and just make everything a skill (or "Proficiency") that works the same way--further simplifying and consolidating things into common mechanical components to handle everything, making them easier to learn and more accessible to the masses.

Except that, AGAIN, most other games had already handled all actions and defenses as skills for decades. But D&D needed its classes, so they had to relegate skills to some strictly supplementary role to emphasize classes. And they're still doing it in 5e--with their limited detail skills and bloated class abilities to justify a class+level progression--it's just that now they have skills riding on their core mechanics, handling every action you make. So even if they try to downplay it, skills are at the heart of everything cuz they handle every action roll.

So a lot of the mechanics that have made D&D better and more accessible have been things that were already perfected in other games. It's just that most normies don't even know what a tabletop RPG is, and if they've even heard about them, the only one whose name they recognize is D&D. And most casual players barely even learn one system--it's usually the GM and hardcore gamers who tend to go deep into the rules. So whenever new people make their way into the hobby they tend to go with the one game most people recognize and stay there.