It was just an increase in the number of players generally, so we got more good players, and more players who... needed education and correction. As well, when players are new to a group they're more likely to engage in shenanigans. As they get to know everyone in the group and settle in, they learn their proper place - so long as the GM is competent to teach them.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1121032Is there any concrete answer as to why though? was it hate for hasbro? was it anime or mmo's? what was the cause of this? was it the rules themselves? why did they behave as if rule zero is not RAW?

It was the 3e rules and video games.

The 3e rules intentionally wanted to reward rules mastery. If you developed rules mastery, your skills could only manifest at the table if the GM enforced the RAW. Otherwise, the GM's house rule or lack of care for RAW nullified your rules mastery.

Video games always play by the RAW. If you made a killer build in Diablo 2, the computer didn't do anything to nerf your build. Becoming OP for the game WAS the game for many people. For many MMO and video gamers, its all about exploiting combos to break the game.

I don't fully blame these players, but just like rabid dogs, I may feel sorry for them, but I won't invite them to my table.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1120492All accounts seem to convey the notion that WotC's RPG division came close to critical status within the overall WotC/Hasbro structure, and if 5E hadn't performed as it did, they might not even have an RPG division today, and D&D would likely have been sold to a prospective buyer in the industry.

I don't think they'd sell it. I think they're already in failure mode. In their minds the RPG division is probably just a write off and they see the value of the brand in movies once they get the rights to that worked out. I think the reason why the 5E team had such the latitude they did was because the suits at Hasbro just want them to not be a major loss lead in regards to bringing in new players(loyal customers) into the brand. I don't think we would've gotten the OGL, DM's Guild or third party licensing if the suits saw any potential for real profit in the RPG division. But the RPG division is talking about low millions, max potential, when Transformer movies are making a billion. Even GI Joe is hundreds of millions.

If 6E turned the ship away from being newbie friendly/popular in media, I think the suits would just do some firing and bring in new leads who could promise to make the brand popular again. They ultimately just want the next D&D movie to be on the Potter/LoTR franchise level. And honestly, they do have a lot of source material to work with.

I think versioning is a demonstrable chimera in role-playing games and the framing of your question suggests otherwise.

5e is its own game. It isn't a better version of D&D, but it is new and different. Versions in role-playing games are like flavors of ice cream, not new types of desserts. RPG companies can go the 'new type of dessert' method by re-purposing IP into new types of products and services (and hybrids of both) but that doesn't apply to RPGs themselves.

I believe the DM's Guild is an acknowledgement by Hasbro of this being true. You can buy any old version you want that they can make available. They aren't trying to force you to buy refreshed versions of old content. What matters to them is that they are making $$$ off of the content making you happy, no matter what version you play.

Likewise, the new books like Xanathar's Guide to Everything are 'versioned' in that they target 5e users but they don't differentiate between players and GMs in making new content.

D&D isn't D&D anymore.

It went from survival horror exploration to superhero exploration. It's a different animal. The GMs have spoken.

But, it's that SJW romantic story where if you don't know story writing & plot points you end up a "bad GM who railroaded players - wow!"

But the reality is most players have no idea of characterization in regards to screenwriting or stories. I've had players vanish when I addressed their arcs.

Vanish.

I've written stories. I know about character transformation and plot arcs.

You vanished. Not me.

Most of these narrative players are bullshit.

Quote from: Dracones;1121088... In their minds the RPG division is probably just a write off and they see the value of the brand in movies once they get the rights to that worked out. ...
But the RPG division is talking about low millions, max potential, when Transformer movies are making a billion. ...

You aren't being a very good write off when you keep growing revenue, profit, and userbase for years, sometimes by as much as 50%. By "low millions" I assume you mean tens of millions.

Quote from: happyhermit;1121414You aren't being a very good write off when you keep growing revenue, profit, and userbase for years, sometimes by as much as 50%. By "low millions" I assume you mean tens of millions.

That depends on whatever you can justify writing off, and that isn't always obvious.

The value of D&D and all related IP has skyrocketed far beyond simple multipliers of annual revenue * X. To maintain and keep building that value, it has to maintain enough presence in the market. I think they are doing a very good job at that, and they've clearly optimized their overhead and minimized their risks.

Quote from: Razor 007;1117558I have a strong hunch that I won't buy into D&D 6E.  I'm definitely not buying into Pathfinder 2E.  So, the question is; what is the plan?

I've read most of pathfinder 2e and...meh....I'm not overly impressed. I like some of the concept, like how Shields can take damage and after a few shots either need repaired or it's destroyed. But having to say "I raise my shield" every round to get the bonus is just plain stupid. Also, I like that you can spend more of your time on your action to cast a spell and it gets stronger. as a minor action, it has a little effect to a full-round where it has a greater effect. But then again, they continue to push dumb penalties to attacks (*sigh*) so I'm mostly not going to continue with that system.

I like 5E for what it is, but as Geralt said in The Witcher "it's like ordering a pie and finding it has no filling.[/i] That isn't to say it's not fun and doesn't have merits but coming from a predominantly 3e/4e background it just lacks round-to-round fun for me.

I'll probably continue to revolve systems as we see fit: 4e then 3.5/PF then 5e then something new or a board game; repeat.

I will say that I FINALLY got my hands on the 13th Age core rulebook and I'm very pleasantly surprised! I knew that it had 4e elements and that's certainly true but I like a lot of the concepts such as more broad skills that can be applied to a number of situations, the way feats work with talents and Spells, and the tight way in which it is bounded up into 10 levels. So I'm now putting time into delving more into that system than traditional d20s.

Quote from: Batman;1121459I like some of the concept, like how Shields can take damage and after a few shots either need repaired or it's destroyed. But having to say "I raise my shield" every round to get the bonus is just plain stupid.

I'm sure it evolved from: "You have a card that represents your shield. Place it next to your character sheet when it is equipped, and place three tokens on it. Each turn you may tap the shield as a free action to raise it. While raised, it can absorb a hit, which removes a stone and untaps the card. At the beginning of your turn, you untap the card during your prep phase before taking any actions. When the last stone is removed from the card, your shield is destroyed and the card is discarded. Some effects can return stones to the card, up to the maximum of 3 (unless the effect specifically allows it to exceed 3)."

Or maybe that'll be Pathfinder 3.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1121297D&D isn't D&D anymore.

It went from survival horror exploration to superhero exploration. It's a different animal. The GMs have spoken.

But, it's that SJW romantic story where if you don't know story writing & plot points you end up a "bad GM who railroaded players - wow!"

But the reality is most players have no idea of characterization in regards to screenwriting or stories. I've had players vanish when I addressed their arcs.

Vanish.

I've written stories. I know about character transformation and plot arcs.

You vanished. Not me.

Most of these narrative players are bullshit.

This is why I hate on Critical Role.  It encourages the narrative players to do their bullshit because to them this is how it is suppose to be.  Well it isn't and yes the player is in the wrong for just vanishing because it didn't go with narrative in your head.  Though who are in the greatest of wrongs are the fucking game devs and Matthew Mercer that make it into a big OK for players to act this way.

What we need is to force these players to play funnel systems till they can eventually get over the fact that yes character's can and will die.  They need to figure out that narratives are for bullshits and it is wise to just leave it for dead.  In short players need to man the fuck up.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1121297D&D isn't D&D anymore.

It went from survival horror exploration to superhero exploration. It's a different animal. The GMs have spoken.

But, it's that SJW romantic story where if you don't know story writing & plot points you end up a "bad GM who railroaded players - wow!"

But the reality is most players have no idea of characterization in regards to screenwriting or stories. I've had players vanish when I addressed their arcs.

Vanish.

I've written stories. I know about character transformation and plot arcs.

You vanished. Not me.

Most of these narrative players are bullshit.

This, which is why I stay with the OSR older D&D editions or the other systems I already own instead of buying 5e. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Currently reading Star Frontiers in order to maybe play it in the future.

Quote from: Batman;1121459I've read most of pathfinder 2e and...meh....I'm not overly impressed. I like some of the concept, like how Shields can take damage and after a few shots either need repaired or it's destroyed. But having to say "I raise my shield" every round to get the bonus is just plain stupid. Also, I like that you can spend more of your time on your action to cast a spell and it gets stronger. as a minor action, it has a little effect to a full-round where it has a greater effect. But then again, they continue to push dumb penalties to attacks (*sigh*) so I'm mostly not going to continue with that system.

Coming from a DnD background it is a shock to have to say anything about your shield at all!

There is just no way I ever see myself going back to D&D. Sure the fondest memories are of bcmi d&d, but going back to that would be like going back to holding hands in the moonlight after a long prestigous porn career, it just doesn't break through the calloused barrier of cynicism that has since grown. I could not tolerate anything with a great deal of crunch anymore, either. Nothing with hitpoints, hitpoints are a major turn off. I've looked at the basic rules for 5e wotc pdf download and it does nothing for me, looks to be a forced simalacrum to my eye with no soul, doesn't inspire or evoke, and reading about 5e on the net is plagued with word salad "problematic" and "build" and "but crawford says", I just cannot do it.

Why does 5e even have classes if everyone wants balance so badly, why not just use a classless system if balance is so important? What is this videogame mindset and why cater to it, banish it already it does not belong.  

I've looked at a lot of games both down through the years and recently, I couldn't go back and be happy with earlier versions of D&D and I don't like 4e/5e, I pretty much can only enjoy WeG D6 system now. Its ogl too, I've considered making a setting or version of it to suite my own tastes and making it free, just to run my own game my way out of my own book with my own name on it. Because starting with 3e and beyond, for me, the new players and mindset have just soul crushingly ruined d&d, I don't think there is any shred of a possibility of going back or picking up a new wotc bastardization.

I mean at this point I even hate dice that are not 6, 8, or 10 sided and even 10 sided is starting to rub me the wrong way because I tried playing that vampire: the angsty twat game a couple times and would flat rather suckstart a shotgun than endure that system or the types i found to be playing it.

As god is my witness we will play "D&D" with D6 fantasy or we won't play at all. No I won't play 5e, or 4e, or 3e, or your cdrom version of 2e, or your overpriced rare and treasured ebay purchased 1e or even basic.

Maybe if i had happened upon 5e without exposure to the people that love it so much, or had never seen critical turd (tal'dorei? boy wtf did i tell you about apostrophes in fantasy names?) or never wandered upon the special breed of people who say things like "half drow half dragon  half tabaxi all fabulous 4 fighter/9 goat herder/ 3 harlot with dark furrykin subclass and androgynous kit named kittikens" maybe i might have liked 5e.

But I can't. To thine own self be true, and I just can't. When i ask about your character and you say, rather than knight errant or apprentice wizard, something like "soul forged warbound shadow striker with EMP build" I really, really, just really want to strangle you to death and make furniture from your bones. cheap crappy furniture that no one wants.

So, really, it doesn't matter to me if it's 15th edition, unless its D6 system or something close, I hate you, and I dismiss you, and I am not ashamed of such.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1121534There is just no way I ever see myself going back to D&D. Sure the fondest memories are of bcmi d&d, but going back to that would be like going back to holding hands in the moonlight after a long prestigous porn career, it just doesn't break through the calloused barrier of cynicism that has since grown.

I ran BECMI for 5 years or so as my son's first experience of D&D. Worked really well and gave him a proper Grognard attitude - "Kids today and their easy-peasy 5e! Why, back in my day..."
I'd definitely recommend trying it again, especially starting over with just Basic then Expert, rather than the Full Rules Cyclopedia version. I used a lot of BasicFantasy.org adventures which kept things fresh.

OTOH I did just start running Mini Six & I understand your love for d6 System! https://simonsprimevalthule.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-valley-of-scorn-palace-of-silver.html
The power level of starting d6 PCs is certainly very 'action hero' and is taking a bit of getting used to - I worried about TPK when I had the party of five PCs attacked by a knight & 8 guards, but they slaughtered them all with the only injury being one Stun.

Quote from: S'mon;1121536The power level of starting d6 PCs is certainly very 'action hero' and is taking a bit of getting used to - I worried about TPK when I had the party of five PCs attacked by a knight & 8 guards, but they slaughtered them all with the only injury being one Stun.

"Well, last night in a tavern, a captain in the king's guard offered violence to the sweetheart of a young solider, who naturally ran him through. But it seems there is some cursed law against killing guardsmen, and the boy and his girl fled away. It was bruited about that I was seen with them, and so today I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wroth, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.

But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing that they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign parts.

Conan the Cimmerian, Queen of the Black Coast

damn skippy.