Quote from: Slipshot762;1120488sadly no, never hardly used templates because players always want to tweak them, swapping skills or pips, so i usually just encourage dice distribution per the make your own template rules.

However, a few months back while tooling around the net I seem to recall finding some D6 star trek stuff.
http://web.archive.org/web/20011026144648/www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3901/trek/index.html

Thanks!

Quote from: Razor 007;1120532D&D 5E has shown profitability, brand name recognition, and staying power.  There is little likelihood of a 6E being a total flop.  But I think history has shown that; from time to time, people are reluctant to repurchase what they already own.  There would be some 5E holdouts, who touted 5E as being plenty good enough.  Why keep reinventing the wheel?  Oh yeah; SJW frustrations....

5E means that if they are half serious about it, they can do a 6E when they are ready.  If they decide they can do any stupid thing they want, then there won't be a 7E.

Honestly I'm waiting for 6e because I don't like 5e. I'd rather play most OSR games than 5e.

5e is great for the first 4 levels. I'm willing to admit that. That's not my problem with it though.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1120492Which raises an interesting question.

How resilient would WotC be to an edition failure?

When 4E hit, it was initially successful, outselling 3.0/3.5 for the initial run. However, as time went by, the issues created by the rules became too much to bear and it collapsed under its own weight (bloat being a compounding factor). All accounts seem to convey the notion that WotC's RPG division came close to critical status within the overall WotC/Hasbro structure, and if 5E hadn't performed as it did, they might not even have an RPG division today, and D&D would likely have been sold to a prospective buyer in the industry.

So, what do you guys think? What if they fail with 6E? Has 5E given them enough clout to weather the failure, or would WotC's RPG division go under?

P.S.: Assume a complete failure here, not a partial long-term failure like 4E.

I think the issue would depend on what causes the roll-out of 6e.

First of all, there's somewhat of an error in your original premise: you assume that for 6e to be a disaster, it would have to suffer catastrophically low sales.

But that's not true. If 6e was coerced into publication by people in the WoTC staff, presumably to make it "more woke", and it had sales that were considerably lower than 5e even without being a total failure, that would still be catastrophic from Hasbro's point of view.

For example, a theoretical 6e could sell better than 4e did overall, and still only sell half as well as 5e; that would be a disaster.

So if 6e was pushed out when 5e was still selling well (and right now it's still selling EXTREMELY well), it would need to sell AT LEAST slightly BETTER than 5e for it to be seen as a good idea.

If it failed to live up to that, there would be extremely serious repercussions for WoTC from Hasbro. How serious would depend on just how poorly it sold. If it failed to live up to 5e's great expectations, but was not a complete catastrophe (say, it still outsold 4e by a considerable margin), this would still be seen as a big failure but it would likely be blamed on the people who pushed for its roll-out and the designers involved. You'd see huge staff changes at WoTC, and a potential change of culture.
If it sold as badly (or worse) than 4e, and you saw a mass abandonment of the customer base, you might see D&D being mothballed, at least for several years, if not turned into a legacy product that would just release reprints of older books.

There's a number of books sold per year which equals "good" for the bean counters at WotC and Hasbro.

6e won't even be considered until that number sold drops from "good" to "okay".

And if "okay" books sold is enough to keep "good" sales of the "D&D lifestyle brand", they still might not do 6e.

AKA, if Hasbro can sell "D&D" TV or movies, video games, etc, then they might not want an edition change and the always ensuing online shit fests to rock the boat on their "lifestyle brand" plans.

In fact, a multiyear TV show contract could even require Hasbro to keep D&D "as-is" so the TV fandom don't get conflicting narratives on social media. AKA, the TV show would be the prime driver of "new content", and the games would flow in line with the TV show.

There was a mindset that came with new players starting in 3e that I'd never seen before which contributed greatly to ruining the whole thing imho, one which seemed to be more proper for board game players which i called computer logic. They would insist first that everything must be RAW and then interpret such in a literal computer like fashion ignoring rule zero, so they could thereby declare the whole thing broken.

Examples: Take most any spell, say astral projection. Obviously the spell is for adventuring on other planes, but the description did not say that specifically, so they'd want to use it to go to sleep on the prime, go to the astral, then exit back to prime in an astral clone and thus adventure with implied virtual immortality. When told it doesn't work that way, that returning to the plane where the spell was cast effectively ends the spell, they cry "RAW! RAW! *like a crow?* the description doesn't say that!" When told how many pounds the bag of dicks they can eat weighs, they'd claim to be vegetarian despite their obvious dick breath.

Another example; they would insist magic items are for sale at listed prices in anytown of whatever size and thus they can buy whatever they want whenever so long as the population center is large enough and if you don't let them its not RAW...what are you turds doing flipping through the dmg anyway? Or any other of a million combinations of absurd shit based one a literal intentionally senseless reading of text, flavor or not, surrounding any obscure rule interaction; such as using diplomacy like charm person or doing great cleave with a bag of rats or whatever, just absolutely childish retarded shit that would never fly with any dm i ever played with and everybit of it based on this computer logic computer glitch reading of text.

and they did not like being told no. like preschool age tantrum throwing children, and they could not be reasoned with, they did not care that even IF they were right NO ONE at the table would have fun as a result of their bullshit. And that i think is what they were after all along, they wanted to win or "prove" the game was "dumb or broken". they also didn't like being told what kind of little shits they are and being hit with hurled objects either (presenting crucifix didn'y work, so, plan B i guess)

Slipshot,

That behavior is not new.  It's been around as long as the games have been--and longer, as long as people have been around.  What is new is that frequently such people who do this kind of thing don't even try to hide it.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1120947Slipshot,

That behavior is not new.  It's been around as long as the games have been--and longer, as long as people have been around.  What is new is that frequently such people who do this kind of thing don't even try to hide it.

I do not doubt that what you say is accurate, it's just that I did not encounter or at least notice anything like it until 3e.  At first I thought it was just a cadre of folks who were sore that hasbro bought D&D, but the common denominators I saw in all these cases were that these were typically younger than the rest of us, did not have prior xp with earlier versions, were dedicated mmo players, and loved anime to the extent that all their characters were broody mcangsty or cutsie lollipop. Applying my ven diagram of paranoia, I decided its just a quirk of the blue hair anime generation & to tell them all to get off my lawn.

I mean we always had powergamers, minmax types, munchkins, but they did not approach this level of anger inducing "i have moral authority and this game sucks" type of behavior. The older type of munchkin at least wanted to munch within the framework, this new breed seemed to want to be the center of everything and destroy all in order to prove they were "right", as if "the game is broken because you let me do this (and you MUST let me do this" was any sort of valid argument at all.

I wonder if 2 or 3 of the WOTC crew have met in private, and at least had a brainstorming session about a hypothetical 6E?  Just to get some ideas on paper for later....

Quote from: Slipshot762;1120933There was a mindset that came with new players starting in 3e that I'd never seen before which contributed greatly to ruining the whole thing imho, one which seemed to be more proper for board game players which i called computer logic. They would insist first that everything must be RAW and then interpret such in a literal computer like fashion ignoring rule zero, so they could thereby declare the whole thing broken.

Examples: Take most any spell, say astral projection. Obviously the spell is for adventuring on other planes, but the description did not say that specifically, so they'd want to use it to go to sleep on the prime, go to the astral, then exit back to prime in an astral clone and thus adventure with implied virtual immortality. When told it doesn't work that way, that returning to the plane where the spell was cast effectively ends the spell, they cry "RAW! RAW! *like a crow?* the description doesn't say that!" When told how many pounds the bag of dicks they can eat weighs, they'd claim to be vegetarian despite their obvious dick breath.

Another example; they would insist magic items are for sale at listed prices in anytown of whatever size and thus they can buy whatever they want whenever so long as the population center is large enough and if you don't let them its not RAW...what are you turds doing flipping through the dmg anyway? Or any other of a million combinations of absurd shit based one a literal intentionally senseless reading of text, flavor or not, surrounding any obscure rule interaction; such as using diplomacy like charm person or doing great cleave with a bag of rats or whatever, just absolutely childish retarded shit that would never fly with any dm i ever played with and everybit of it based on this computer logic computer glitch reading of text.

and they did not like being told no. like preschool age tantrum throwing children, and they could not be reasoned with, they did not care that even IF they were right NO ONE at the table would have fun as a result of their bullshit. And that i think is what they were after all along, they wanted to win or "prove" the game was "dumb or broken". they also didn't like being told what kind of little shits they are and being hit with hurled objects either (presenting crucifix didn'y work, so, plan B i guess)

The only reason you are running 3e or expecting players to bother learning the system is the reward that players can visualize what their character can do without constant GM-feedback. It's the pain from learning the system that creates the expectation that the rules work the way they say they do (though your examples are erroneous, astral projection doesn't work like that and population center size directly effects town size, Wealth-by-Level and magic items are so assumed in the combat engine that not having them readily available breaks things).

Quote from: Slipshot762;1120933There was a mindset that came with new players starting in 3e that I'd never seen before which contributed greatly to ruining the whole thing imho, one which seemed to be more proper for board game players which i called computer logic. They would insist first that everything must be RAW and then interpret such in a literal computer like fashion ignoring rule zero, so they could thereby declare the whole thing broken.

Examples: Take most any spell, say astral projection. Obviously the spell is for adventuring on other planes, but the description did not say that specifically, so they'd want to use it to go to sleep on the prime, go to the astral, then exit back to prime in an astral clone and thus adventure with implied virtual immortality. When told it doesn't work that way, that returning to the plane where the spell was cast effectively ends the spell, they cry "RAW! RAW! *like a crow?* the description doesn't say that!" When told how many pounds the bag of dicks they can eat weighs, they'd claim to be vegetarian despite their obvious dick breath.

Another example; they would insist magic items are for sale at listed prices in anytown of whatever size and thus they can buy whatever they want whenever so long as the population center is large enough and if you don't let them its not RAW...what are you turds doing flipping through the dmg anyway? Or any other of a million combinations of absurd shit based one a literal intentionally senseless reading of text, flavor or not, surrounding any obscure rule interaction; such as using diplomacy like charm person or doing great cleave with a bag of rats or whatever, just absolutely childish retarded shit that would never fly with any dm i ever played with and everybit of it based on this computer logic computer glitch reading of text.

and they did not like being told no. like preschool age tantrum throwing children, and they could not be reasoned with, they did not care that even IF they were right NO ONE at the table would have fun as a result of their bullshit. And that i think is what they were after all along, they wanted to win or "prove" the game was "dumb or broken". they also didn't like being told what kind of little shits they are and being hit with hurled objects either (presenting crucifix didn'y work, so, plan B i guess)

If you think that any of these were problems then the shenanigans that ADnD Players got up to would have blown your mind!

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121012your examples are erroneous, astral projection doesn't work like that

"The character projects the character's astral self into the Astral Plane, leaving the character's physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of the character and all the character wears or carries onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, the character can travel astrally to any of these other planes as the character wishes. The character then leaves the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence the character has chosen to enter.
If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to the character's body where it rests on the Material Plane, reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes."
They took this to mean they could play with clone bodies on the prime even though they started on the prime.

QuoteWealth-by-Level and magic items are so assumed in the combat engine that not having them readily available breaks things

I disagree, an assumption about being able to overcome DR with magic weapons, sure, but the assumption that you should be able to buy whatever you wanted simply because there were enough people nearby, that is something I call foul on.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1121028I disagree, an assumption about being able to overcome DR with magic weapons, sure, but the assumption that you should be able to buy whatever you wanted simply because there were enough people nearby, that is something I call foul on.

WBL was tied into the math and was critical in designing "fair" encounters, which was the main route of play for Adventure Paths and newer players.

Now I personally ran a 1-36 campaign in D&D 3e and didn't give a rats ass about "WBL", shit was wack though, the fighter particularly struggled. Honestly it was so long ago that I think I eventually let people get WBL for the epic level half of the campaign.

I dealt with RAW clowns pre-3e, but there was an explosion of those shitbags post-3e.

They're easy to deal with. Cast upon them the magic word of "NO", and if necessary, summon thee the incantation of "FUCK OFF".

If any piece of shit disrupts your table, toss them at an open window, or door if you must. Let organized play groups at game stores suffer those imbeciles because they have no place at a home game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1121030there was an explosion of those shitbags post-3e.

Is there any concrete answer as to why though? was it hate for hasbro? was it anime or mmo's? what was the cause of this? was it the rules themselves? why did they behave as if rule zero is not RAW?