For me it would be advancement. I like characters to change, but advancement I think makes us too focussed on jam tomorrow rather than jam today and I think it breeds huge rules complexity.
So, death to character advancement!
What about you?
Dice.
:haw: NOT! I love me some dice. Hrmmm, I'm going have to htink about this a lot. Because there are a lot of concepts I think are mostly fine, just often used in the wrong place or to an inappropriate extent.
Maybe random character generation? That always rubs me the wrong way. Although I haven't played Toon, and random tables are good for non-sequitur goofiness so maybe, just maybe, random PC generation would get a repreive.
D&D's rule 0 maybe? Hrmmm.
Hey, my group loves random chargen, hands off!
PC script immunity, i.e. Dragonlance.
Tactical movement/combat. I do love minis and hex-n-chit tactical games, but they aren't roleplaying games. Likewise, RPGs aren't tactical games. Sure, make separate games that are compatible (classic Traveller and Snapshot or Striker, for instance), but don't try mixing them together (D&D 3.x or Mongoose Traveller, for instance). Make up your mind about what kind of game you want to play!
!i!
The idea that more complicated/complete rules equals better rules. Simplicity in rule design on the front end can solve a lot of problems during actual play.
And a special one for science fiction games, leave some wiggle room for there to be some fiction in the science fiction. I do not necessarily want my science fiction RPG to be so scientifically accurate that it makes for a boring game play environment. If I wanted a science textbook, I'd go buy it - not a game which shouldn't be held to the same standards.
Quote from: BalbinusHey, my group loves random chargen, hands off!
How about we just get parallel universes so I don't have to ever risk being exposed to your crappy gaming preferences! :D
Quote from: jeff37923The idea that more complicated/complete rules equals better rules. Simplicity in rule design on the front end can solve a lot of problems during actual play.
This I can really get behind. Hoist "more is always more" upon the pyre and burn it!
Quote from: BalbinusWhat about you?
Hit points escalating with level.
Lavishly supported official settings.
Roleplaying as group therapy.
Classes.
I always knew you had no class, walker... :haw:
Action Points (or whatever meta-mechanic)...
Quote from: blakkieHow about we just get parallel universes so I don't have to ever risk being exposed to your crappy gaming preferences! :D
Eh, to be honest I'd rather overzealously pursue you and your badwrongfun ways until you accept my position out of sheer exhaustion.
It's the internet way.
Quote from: blakkieThis I can really get behind. Hoist "more is always more" upon the pyre and burn it!
Me too, though James makes a good case also.
Jim-Bob's suggestion sounds undeniable, but I would hope it's not that common an issue anyway.
Quote from: BalbinusI like characters to change, but advancement I think makes us too focussed on jam tomorrow rather than jam today and I think it breads huge rules complexity.
Fixed your typo.
GET IT?!
Okay, okay. Delete one design concept...? Ah!
"Playing this way is better than playing that way, so play this way and don't be a plebe."
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Fixed your typo.
GET IT?!
Aiiee! My beautifully crafted post, over which I spent many hours, now contains a pun.
Curse you Rotwang! Curse you to hell! To hell I say!
On an unrelated note, I saw tonight that the new NWoD book contains rules for car repairs. I can see why that could be important in a horror game actually, but not why it's so important you couldn't just ask for a quick roll with a relevant skill.
Over time, systems tend to bloat...
Quote from: BalbinusMe too, though James makes a good case also.
I usually do. :)
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Okay, okay. Delete one design concept...? Ah!
"Playing this way is better than playing that way, so play this way and don't be a plebe."
As usual, Rotwang hits in on the head. (hopefully with a club made of penicillin)
Quote from: James McMurrayAs usual, Rotwang hits in on the head. (hopefully with a club made of penicillin)
Bang! Bang! Rotwang's silver hammer
Came down on upon it's head.
Bang! Bang! Rotwang's silver hammer
Made sure that it was dead.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityPC script immunity, i.e. Dragonlance.
That's a good one.
I torn between that, "disads as point farms", "all PCs are cut from the same cloth", and "xp/compensation for florid description or roleplay".
EDIT: These are all fine things to disdain, how could I forget:
"Roll-your-own traits". For me, defeats the purpose of having a gaming system.
"Rule Zero" and associated dice fudging, railroading, and Illusionism. It's all part of the same concept.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad"disads as point farms",
Had I ever played GURPS, this one may well have made the list...
Things I would get rid of?
Generic Systems and/or generic settings. In my mind, they are married.
"System Mastery" or any sort of focus or rewards for the same.
Large pools of hit points (or equivalent). I prefer when HP is easy to quantify into physical character damage.
The idea that railroading, cliche's and predictability are bad things.
Maybe flaws. They give the player points for creating more work for the GM. I mean, seriously, you take "Addiction to Gambling" and I have to remember you've got it, to work it into the game, etc., to make sure you're not getting free points.
Seanchai
Mapped out character builds.
Quote from: HaffrungMapped out character builds.
By this, do you mean ready-to-play character templates?
!i!
That's a tough question really.
For instance, I don't think random character creation or point buy is inherently bad, but there are certainly plenty of bad implementations of both.
I don't think classes are bad if you want a quick character creation system for a game where pcs die in droves. But to then tie them to endless complications and skill systems seems pretty self defeating (Rolemaster you say? Nah, RM is a skill system where the skill costs are bought on points in the form of a balanced template, not a class system)
Anyhow, mine would be the core book that isn't complete enough to run the game without buying supplements. I can't stand that.
Quote from: KrakaJakGeneric Systems and/or generic settings. In my mind, they are married.
What the hell is a generic setting?
Generic Setting:
Here is a vibrant new fantasy world with elves, dwarves, and +1 swords, only the elves braid their hair and the dwarves get their beards permed.
Here is a vibrant new science fiction world where there are ftl starships furry aliens and energy swords but as a twist the energy swords are used by a cult of psychics who have undermined the democratic federation.
Here is a vibrant new comic book world with analogues of all your favourite characters with name and costume changes.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityHad I ever played GURPS, this one may well have made the list...
Visit Cincy - I can work you into a game session or two if you want to try it.
- Ed C.
/\/\/\/\
I think it would be fun to play a game of GURPS with Koltar...you better take him up on that offer!
Generic Settings= Campaign guides "for any of your favorite RPG systems!", please tie your setting to the mechanics of the game!
Examples of good Setting/Mechanics relationships: Vampire: the Requiem, Exalted 2nd, Shadowrun, TMNT&OS, Unkown Armies, Call of Cthulhu D20.
Examples of bad Setting/Mecanics relationships: Exalted 1, Star Wars d20 1st, GURPS Discworld, D20 Modern/Urban Arcanna.
Hit point bloat.
I don't mind characters becoming tougher as they advance, but when an experienced character has more than ten times the hit points of a neophyte it's a bit much. I vastly prefer systems that permit tactical avoidance of damage as one progresses. A high parry score, specialised defensive manuevers, damage reduction via 'feats' and so on.
"Story".
Canon.
Spreadsheets for character sheets. Bring on the pictures!
So...you prefer a disorganized, irrational mess where nobody can figure out how you arrived at that bonus?
No, I prefer things that are a work of art, rather than a grid of numbers.
Quote from: Rob LangSpreadsheets for character sheets. Bring on the pictures!
Awesome! :haw:
"You can't have any item, ability, or bonus unless you include it on your character sketch."
Rules that have to be obeyed :(
I prefer the freedom to allow things to go where the players wishes and setting logic lead, not just the things the game designer likes doing!
Vadrus
Quote from: Stuart"You can't have any item, ability, or bonus unless you include it on your character sketch."
Or the StickGuy free RPG on 1KM1KT (http://www.1km1kt.net), where you have to draw damage onto your stick character. The character sheet is a picture of stick man/woman, two numbers and any stuff they have. Classic.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBy this, do you mean ready-to-play character templates?
No. I mean players sitting down and 'building' a PC far into into the future, plotting out skills, powers, feats, etc. The very notion of elaborate character concepts and character builds is one the things I hate about the modern RPG scene. It's responsible for a lot of increased complexity, rules creep, and player entitlement that turns me off. I prefer mechanically simple PCs who develop in-game, rather than at the kitchen table of a number-cruncing gamer (or frustrated writer). The sub-game of PC optimization (or backstory generation for the storygamers) has come to supplant and even undermine actual play.
I would remove the idea that game systems must treat participants as if they are deliberately acting in bad faith.
This is an evil which manifests itself in at least two ways that I can identify:
- Systems which assume that the players are all going to be power-gaming jerks, and therefore provide convoluted and minutely-balanced character generations systems in order to make it as difficult as possible for players to create the sort of character the designers Do Not Approve Of. ("You want to play a character who is competent in combat? Clearly, you are a powergaming munchkin!")
- Systems which assume that the GM is out to screw the players over and generally ensure that they have a shitty time, and thus attempt to hamstring the GM. (These attempts are usually unsuccessful, because in any game where there's a "GM" position at all, the GM usually has far more ability to screw with the rules than the players do - if only because players generally only have the stuff that's written on their character sheet to play with, whilst GMs can use the entire world to their advantage.)
If you have a player who is taking the piss, or not getting the point, TALK TO HIM/HER OOC. If you have a GM who is being an ass, TALK TO HIM/HER OOC. OOC problems should be dealt with via OOC methods, not with rules tweaks.
Quote from: HaffrungThe sub-game of PC optimization (or backstory generation for the storygamers) has come to supplant and even undermine actual play.
I, too, poop upon this.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I, too, poop upon this.
My race are celebrated poopers! We join your protest.
Bill
A mechanical concept?
Probably Attacks of Opportunity.
An overall concept? GM-disempowering.
RPGPundit
Quote from: HaffrungNo. I mean players sitting down and 'building' a PC far into into the future, plotting out skills, powers, feats, etc.
Oh, oh! Shit yes. It's roughly the equivalent of setting up one of those marble tracks, putting the marble at the top, and just letting it go.
!i!
Death to STAT blocks...
I just wish there was another d20 alternative.
The release of dozens of supplemental books that provide nothing but useless power-creep.
Quote from: HaffrungNo. I mean players sitting down and 'building' a PC far into into the future, plotting out skills, powers, feats, etc. The very notion of elaborate character concepts and character builds is one the things I hate about the modern RPG scene. It's responsible for a lot of increased complexity, rules creep, and player entitlement that turns me off. I prefer mechanically simple PCs who develop in-game, rather than at the kitchen table of a number-cruncing gamer (or frustrated writer). The sub-game of PC optimization (or backstory generation for the storygamers) has come to supplant and even undermine actual play.
This.
You shouldn't be able to master a system, just understand it clearly.
"The party".
Very few RPGs can handle PvP well, and even when they can, there's usually a lot of custom in the group to overcome to do it well. One of the reasons that I really like my current group is that we can pretty seamlessly switch from PvP or pursuing conflicting goals to working together as circumstances and whim demand, rather than being able to pursue only one of those options.
Warthur: well said. That would also rank very high on The List.
Hit points escalation with level.
Character advancement as is developed in 99% of the RPGs I know.
All that advice of "Fudge rolls, fuck the rules on a whim, fuck over the PCs if they get out of your plot"
GM disempowering, on the other side. GM is a referee, a judge, and should have a great deal of authority. There has to be a balance.
Canon ultradetailed that you are expected to follow slavishly.
Pretentious writing on how this game is going to change the RPGdom