OK, not a serious thread, but I was wondering...

What would the evolution of this implied setting be like if you fast forwarded it to say the 20th century and beyond? Would it follow our world's "history" in the sense that as human progress encroaches, the fairie folk and magic dissappear into the mists (vaguely thinking of the Excalibur movie and Merlin's words)? (Is this what happened in Shadowrun? I can't remember.)

Or, does the world evolve in a different way, with all the races still present? Does technology evolve enough to rival magic? Or does magic still rule (do we have the equivalent of Army Rangers and Navy Seals with magic, for example)?

If technology evolves, does something like our two world wars occur? A Hiroshima equivalent level of atrocity? Does the environment start to suffer?   Or does the presence of elves mean that they treat the environment better? Etc, etc.  

How about for other D&D settings?

I ran a longterm Shadowrun campaign that took place in a near-future Ravenloft

Not that Arroz can see this post, but I find the topic interesting.

I had a setting where there was a race (basically lizardmen) everyone used for slaves, that turned out to be the degenerate remains of a once world-spanning empire.

When they found remaining outposts of the ancient race, I had it laid out and functioning almost exactly like a high scifi base. There were automatic lights that came on, a base AI, etc.
Except, of course, it was all magical.

Another interesting source for this sort of thing is the FFG game 'Dragonstar,' the premise of which is 'D&D meets space opera' in a more overt magic next to tech, rather than Spelljammer.

In some cases, this was really straight-out D&D meets space opera, since it was totally in-setting that you'd have a D&D world and then SS-like Drow show up in their starships to take over.

"I had a setting where there was a race (basically lizardmen) everyone used for slaves, that turned out to be the degenerate remains of a once world-spanning empire.

When they found remaining outposts of the ancient race, I had it laid out and functioning almost exactly like a high scifi base. There were automatic lights that came on, a base AI, etc.
Except, of course, it was all magical."

One of Karl Edward Wagner's Kain novels uses this same idea. Check out Bloodstone, where Kain finds an ancient ring which gives him control over a soggy ruined city.

You'd end up with Magitech.:-)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J1-J3Lo9L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Engine

Quote from: Doughdee222;812873One of Karl Edward Wagner's Kain novels uses this same idea. Check out Bloodstone, where Kain finds an ancient ring which gives him control over a soggy ruined city.

Huh! Guess no idea is unique. (Looking it up, turns out to be spelled Kane, for anyone else looking)


At least in my setting, the lizardmen were actually really peaceful happy dumb guys who would run away from all troubles. Which is PROBABLY ... unique. ish.

Quote from: TristramEvans;812830I ran a longterm Shadowrun campaign that took place in a near-future Ravenloft

That's awesome.

The idea of running Shadowrun set in future Waterdeep in future Forgotten Realms has been in my head since SR1E came out, but I've never done it.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;812824What would the evolution of this implied setting be like if you fast forwarded it to say the 20th century and beyond? Would it follow our world's "history" in the sense that as human progress encroaches, the fairie folk and magic dissappear into the mists (vaguely thinking of the Excalibur movie and Merlin's words)? (Is this what happened in Shadowrun? I can't remember.)

Well if you going by the book there is nothing to diminish the supernatural as there no mechanics that even implies that is possible.

What were the trends of our middle age?

First was increasing centralization by the rulers of Europe. The local authority of the great nobles were being diminished in favor of central authority. For the Holy Roman Empire this stopped at the Great noble level (dukes, counts, kings, etc). For Spain, France, and English, the king consolidated power.

With the increased centralization came increased trade. A money economy took hold and began to flourish.

Next was a change in warfare. Gunpowder and pikes caused a shift away from the mounted knights towards a mixed arm force that was easier to equip, train, and maintain. Multiplying the ability of the rulers to project military power. If you don't want Gunpowder to muddy your waters then substitute crossbows and pikes. In the end the result is similar a mixed arm force easier to maintain and more capable in terms of tactics.

Then there was the printing press, which marked a revolution in the distribution of written material.

Finally there was a revolution in thought both in the Renaissance and Reformation.

The general trend would be toward increased diversity of technology and thought.

D&D 'as is' would benefit in the following ways.

Increased centralization would result in more sophisticated insinuation capable of dealing with threats both mundane and supernatural.  While the system still had a weak point of depending on a competent ruler, you no longer need to be a genius like Charlemagne to command vast armies and resources. The system worked well enough to allow an average ruler considerable resources.

The printing press potentially could widen the pool of D&D magic. Not so much clerics but wizards could benefit from the easy duplication of written works. It may be that actual spell books and scroll need to be hand written but distributing all the support and foundation material would be far easier.

Combined with increasing sophistication in how people are taught i.e. the development of universities means that wizards would be far more commonplaces. With the central authority of kings being stronger, it would be easier to control wizards as a useful part of society.

On problem is that of the clerics. With deities visibly manifesting their power as clerical spells it would be hard for a Reformation to take hold. It would be a truism for centuries that clerics have to be faithful and mostly free of hypocrisy in order to continue to use divine spells.

What may spark in a revolution in thought about the divine is the realization that the multiple competing deities are not all powerful and all knowing. That in part they could be treated as a very powerful noble lord with their own quirks and habits. That it would be difficult but possible for humanity to declare their independence of the whims of these being and establish themselves as a power in their own right.

If this idea takes hold a Reformation style period of history would likely ensue with bloody religious wars all over the place. No only between the "humanists" and all the clerics but also between clerics as the deities take advantage of the chaos for their own goals. It would be a bloody mess.

If the humanist wins, the result depends on the natures of the surviving divine beings. Some can be accommodated with the understanding that humanity can no longer as playthings and underlings. The remaining would viewed as hostile little better than demons if they demand subservience.



 

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;812824Or, does the world evolve in a different way, with all the races still present? Does technology evolve enough to rival magic? Or does magic still rule (do we have the equivalent of Army Rangers and Navy Seals with magic, for example)?

It was a revolution in thought in conjunction with technology that lead to the industrial revolution. Without each other the result is more of the same, a civilization still subject to the ebbs and flows of nature (plague, climate, etc).

A magical industrial revolution is possible but what form it would take depends on the conditions of its origin. Likely it would give one country a major leg up like it did Great Britain. If that country is part of a region of similar competing powers then likely similar events would occur as in our own history. Wars of revolution, wars of independence, wars to unite, world war between competing alliances, worlds wars between competing philosophies.

Keeping mind that a big difference is the presence of very powerful supernatural powers, the deities.

Assuming a humanist victory in the alt-Reformation. I would predict

An Era of competing nation states with small scale wars.

Followed by an era of revolution as new philosophies took hold about the rights and roles of man.

That the era of revolution would led to a first industrial revolution for a advantage over rival nations.

That the first industrial revolution gives the humanist nations a decisive advantage over the great supernatural powers. As for the first time the humanists can beat them outright rather than wear them down through attrition.

That a conservative reaction to the age of revolution sets in leading to another era of small scale wars.

Competing systems of alliances developed leading to a First World War.

Most humanist nations are devastated from the war and religions centered around the old supernatural great powers return with a vengeance. Along with alternative philosophies like socialism. This leads a even more devastating second world war between the remaining humanist nations, alt-philosophy nations, and the nations that now follow the old supernatural powers.

One wild card in postulating forward D&D is the source of 'monsters' and other races.

In the real world, most large natural predators of mankind got wiped out pretty fast as technology advanced (to vastly simplify what 'technology' means, but hey).

Reasonably, one would expect magic to do similar, except then there's the 'well, why are there still monsters around in the time of magical pseudo-Medieval/Renaissance mashup?'

Depending on what monsters are/come from, you can end up anywhere between a magically based Fallout game or Hitler riding around on a T Rex...

In how I've read a lot of D&D settings, it feels to me like they are setup to be static. There is rarely an underpinning of undiscovered magical capability as there is the "lost empire" was ruined and magic understanding "lost forever". If you assume more knowledge and control of magic can be mastered...

Our technological advancement is lock step with our scientific advancement. We have learned a lot about how our universe works and how to exploit that knowledge, generally to overcome obstacles to our safety or comfort.

In some ways, I think magic would stunt technological growth (as we know it) as we substituted our magical knowledge to overcome these same issues. Magic would become our science. Why seek out a way to move a turbine when I can magically heat water or magically charm a creature to turn it (or create a construct to do so)? Why seek methods of heating and cooling when magic can do it near effortlessly? Why invent a means of travelling long distance when I can teleport between gates in cities? Why learn about antibiotics and sanitation when I simply head to the local temple, pay a tithe and be healed?

The list of problems solved by technology seems to have magical solutions in equal measure. It seems likely to me that guilds and churches could maintain their societal status indefinitely. Controlling magic knowledge would be paramount from the beginning. I could see "anarchists" trying to make that information available or attempting to learn on their own with various disasters solidifying the populace for the guilds and against unregulated practice. It's going to be very difficult to convince people to not believe in the gods when a) the priests/priestesses are all following their ideals and maintaining piety to keep their divine gifts and b) those divine gifts work!

If the study and practice of magic advanced at the same likeness to technology (magical manufacturing, miniaturization, replication...) I could see a very interesting future...

I could see a future with enormous cities built up in circular patterns (like European countryside) with vast farmlands kept by automatons. Building methods would be magically enhanced for longevity and support. Various remote resources would trade into the cities via "outpost" towns (for fishing, ice farming, game hunting, timber, building rock...).

Cities would all be connected by vast teleportation gate stations, like a train station network. Local travel would be by magical conveyances (flying carriages, automatons built to power "horse-less vehicles", flying ships...). Crystal balls and enchanted mirrors would be networked allowing for advanced communications and broadcasting. Not only would printing presses exist, but again, they would likely be automatons as well. Magically enhanced "cold boxes". Enchanted decorations in houses would control temperature and humidity, water temperature, etc. Magically enchanted wardrobes would clean, fold and press your clothes. Unseen servants would open doors automatically, clean the house, and keep the garden.

Any "machine" would be a construct. This could open up all kinds of interesting ideas like "self aware" machinery or magical corruption that causes some automatons to gain self-awareness and rebel. Magical creatures that are not under the control of a mage could become free and cause havoc across civilized areas. Personal and property security could come with some serious consequences (Minotaur or Beholder guardian? Gnoll park rangers? Hobgoblin personal security force? Pixie body guard?).

I am guessing laws would center around the regulation of magic, using magic to commit crimes. Any police or military forces would have to include mages to counteract criminal mages.

There are a lot of interesting possibilities, but I hardly imagine it would resemble our modern day. It might even advance faster since magic seems to be able to quickly exploit physical laws without the need to understand those underlying physical laws...

Operation Chaos by Anderson does that, extrapolating a modern world from a earth where magic and fantasy elements were real.

WWII happened instead with the Islamic nations and the story starts off with the main characters, a werewolf and a sorceress trying to prevent the release of a Djinn. Instead of cars and aeroplanes they have brooms and carpets. Crystal balls replacing TV and I believe telephones.

TSR's Amazing Engine had the Magitech book which did much the same premise.

d20 modern had the Urban Arcana setting, but never seen it so cannot say how much it actually extrapolated. Apparently not much?

There is also an old SF book whos name I do not recall. But the premise was that free energy and FTL was actually an absurdly easy method that was usually discovered by civilizations in their early eras. And so there was no need to ever discover technologies past it.
Earth just never did.
So there were all these starfaring empires run by effectively at the Roman era of tech. They discover Earth whos been plodding along and we are effectively GODS because we developed guns and nukes and everything else to get into space.

That is also an element in my Red Shetland book. The world is around 800 AD equivalent, but civilization in areas is leaping forward closer to 1200. Helped by the fact that all the races started at a 00 AD level whole cloth rather than having to climb up from nothing. Older races from older iterations took far longer due to their immense lifespans and baser flaws. Dragons took several thousand years to reach a more advanced level and focused mostly on the material. Unicorns took even longer as they advanced forward in magic far. But then stopped as they fell into decadence and boredom. Griffons advanced in totally chaotic spurts and falls due to their self-centered arrogant natures. Advancements were hoarded and filtered to the public sometimes only by force.

I don't see why technology would necessarily go forward. It hasn't for much of our history. And all the smart people would be going into magic.

I realize today it's the in thing to say the Dark Ages weren't that dark, but when you look at the stuff the Romans had, like mechanical reapers (apparently invented by the Celts, actually) and aqueducts and irrigation, their plumbing and heating systems in their buildings.

Look at the cultures of North America. They were stone age, basically, even into modern times. They couldn't even seem to figure out a practical use of the wheel.

Discworld has been doing tech advancement for years so you would end up with Clacks, Personal Disorganisers, Music with Rocks in it, Moving Pictures, intelligent dogs, etc ....

All the things that the old school guys say would never happen in D&D becuase magic is rare and wizards don't want to waste their time destroying castles and spectres don't want to take over  the world would eventually happen, on an infinite timeline. You just have to decide the ciritical points where magic becomes science and is taught as such, where when Humans final get pissed off with Elves sneering superiority and when the spectres decide its time to lay down the law.

Are we talking realism here?  If so ...

It's pretty tough to say.  My eternal answer to "magic replaces technology" is "NFW, because in almost no game system is magic ubiquitous enough to pull it off."  How many D&D settings have as many as one in ten capable of magic, let alone practicing magic?

And there's your answer right there.  ANYone can use a forged tool.  ANY peasant can lead a team of horses wearing horse collars.  ANYone can learn to drive a car.  You don't have to have the inbred ability to work magic, or years of magical apprenticeship, to do them.

At the same time, scientific advancement happens because people are seeking ways to do things that either aren't being done at all or which can be done better, and for which they can find the financing to experiment.  I'm thinking rich patrons are far less likely to put their gold into the pockets of physicists and chemists than into the pockets of wizards.  

And beyond that ... every journeyman wizard who can make large volumes of water vanish equals a mine owner who isn't looking for better pumping technology.  Every one who can create sustainable high furnace temperatures equals one less opportunity for a John Bessemer to make his name.  If enchanters can come out with cheap time-telling items, there's no incentive to make accurate naval chronometers.  And so on.

A lot depends on your base assumptions.  

Is magic "democratic" in that anyone with 9 Int, literacy and leisure time can learn it, or is there a talent or bloodline requirement that's just assumed when a PC takes the wizard class?  Is magic "rational," working the same way every time, or do spells depend on personal horoscopes, ritual consecration and observation of taboos, such that just learning the magic words isn't enough?

Whether you can get a Magitech world at all is going to depend on how you answer those.  For myself, I prefer the irrational take on magic, but that's because the magitech approach does nothing for me.

A number of D&D settings have the conceit that gods gain or lose power as they gain or lose followers.  That's a big concept!  The march of progress in that world doesn't have to be about technology at all.  Instead it would be about the spread in faith of a couple big winners out of the deities.  So you'd better hope the winning gods are benevolent, but maybe that's their equivalent of the Enlightenment:  skeptics and philosophers not denying the gods, but figuring out humans get a say as well, and deciding who to throw their weight behind.

So the future of that world isn't us with crystal balls in place of television, its one world-spanning faith.  (Maybe in an artificially kludged together pantheon.  "We'll take the elven god of healing, the halfling god of farming... what else?")  The form of government may or may not literally be a theocracy, but orthodox faith will be a civic virtue, churches and priests will be omnipresent, divine magic will be powerful, and there may even be freestanding effects as those one or several powerful gods touch the world.