OK, not a serious thread, but I was wondering...
What would the evolution of this implied setting be like if you fast forwarded it to say the 20th century and beyond? Would it follow our world's "history" in the sense that as human progress encroaches, the fairie folk and magic dissappear into the mists (vaguely thinking of the Excalibur movie and Merlin's words)? (Is this what happened in Shadowrun? I can't remember.)
Or, does the world evolve in a different way, with all the races still present? Does technology evolve enough to rival magic? Or does magic still rule (do we have the equivalent of Army Rangers and Navy Seals with magic, for example)?
If technology evolves, does something like our two world wars occur? A Hiroshima equivalent level of atrocity? Does the environment start to suffer? Or does the presence of elves mean that they treat the environment better? Etc, etc.
How about for other D&D settings?
I ran a longterm Shadowrun campaign that took place in a near-future Ravenloft
Not that Arroz can see this post, but I find the topic interesting.
I had a setting where there was a race (basically lizardmen) everyone used for slaves, that turned out to be the degenerate remains of a once world-spanning empire.
When they found remaining outposts of the ancient race, I had it laid out and functioning almost exactly like a high scifi base. There were automatic lights that came on, a base AI, etc.
Except, of course, it was all magical.
Another interesting source for this sort of thing is the FFG game 'Dragonstar,' the premise of which is 'D&D meets space opera' in a more overt magic next to tech, rather than Spelljammer.
In some cases, this was really straight-out D&D meets space opera, since it was totally in-setting that you'd have a D&D world and then SS-like Drow show up in their starships to take over.
"I had a setting where there was a race (basically lizardmen) everyone used for slaves, that turned out to be the degenerate remains of a once world-spanning empire.
When they found remaining outposts of the ancient race, I had it laid out and functioning almost exactly like a high scifi base. There were automatic lights that came on, a base AI, etc.
Except, of course, it was all magical."
One of Karl Edward Wagner's Kain novels uses this same idea. Check out Bloodstone, where Kain finds an ancient ring which gives him control over a soggy ruined city.
You'd end up with Magitech.:-)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J1-J3Lo9L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J1-J3Lo9L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Engine)
Quote from: Doughdee222;812873One of Karl Edward Wagner's Kain novels uses this same idea. Check out Bloodstone, where Kain finds an ancient ring which gives him control over a soggy ruined city.
Huh! Guess no idea is unique. :) (Looking it up, turns out to be spelled Kane, for anyone else looking)
At least in my setting, the lizardmen were actually really peaceful happy dumb guys who would run away from all troubles. Which is PROBABLY ... unique. ish.
Quote from: TristramEvans;812830I ran a longterm Shadowrun campaign that took place in a near-future Ravenloft
That's awesome.
The idea of running Shadowrun set in future Waterdeep in future Forgotten Realms has been in my head since SR1E came out, but I've never done it.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;812824What would the evolution of this implied setting be like if you fast forwarded it to say the 20th century and beyond? Would it follow our world's "history" in the sense that as human progress encroaches, the fairie folk and magic dissappear into the mists (vaguely thinking of the Excalibur movie and Merlin's words)? (Is this what happened in Shadowrun? I can't remember.)
Well if you going by the book there is nothing to diminish the supernatural as there no mechanics that even implies that is possible.
What were the trends of our middle age?
First was increasing centralization by the rulers of Europe. The local authority of the great nobles were being diminished in favor of central authority. For the Holy Roman Empire this stopped at the Great noble level (dukes, counts, kings, etc). For Spain, France, and English, the king consolidated power.
With the increased centralization came increased trade. A money economy took hold and began to flourish.
Next was a change in warfare. Gunpowder and pikes caused a shift away from the mounted knights towards a mixed arm force that was easier to equip, train, and maintain. Multiplying the ability of the rulers to project military power. If you don't want Gunpowder to muddy your waters then substitute crossbows and pikes. In the end the result is similar a mixed arm force easier to maintain and more capable in terms of tactics.
Then there was the printing press, which marked a revolution in the distribution of written material.
Finally there was a revolution in thought both in the Renaissance and Reformation.
The general trend would be toward increased diversity of technology and thought.
D&D 'as is' would benefit in the following ways.
Increased centralization would result in more sophisticated insinuation capable of dealing with threats both mundane and supernatural. While the system still had a weak point of depending on a competent ruler, you no longer need to be a genius like Charlemagne to command vast armies and resources. The system worked well enough to allow an average ruler considerable resources.
The printing press potentially could widen the pool of D&D magic. Not so much clerics but wizards could benefit from the easy duplication of written works. It may be that actual spell books and scroll need to be hand written but distributing all the support and foundation material would be far easier.
Combined with increasing sophistication in how people are taught i.e. the development of universities means that wizards would be far more commonplaces. With the central authority of kings being stronger, it would be easier to control wizards as a useful part of society.
On problem is that of the clerics. With deities visibly manifesting their power as clerical spells it would be hard for a Reformation to take hold. It would be a truism for centuries that clerics have to be faithful and mostly free of hypocrisy in order to continue to use divine spells.
What may spark in a revolution in thought about the divine is the realization that the multiple competing deities are not all powerful and all knowing. That in part they could be treated as a very powerful noble lord with their own quirks and habits. That it would be difficult but possible for humanity to declare their independence of the whims of these being and establish themselves as a power in their own right.
If this idea takes hold a Reformation style period of history would likely ensue with bloody religious wars all over the place. No only between the "humanists" and all the clerics but also between clerics as the deities take advantage of the chaos for their own goals. It would be a bloody mess.
If the humanist wins, the result depends on the natures of the surviving divine beings. Some can be accommodated with the understanding that humanity can no longer as playthings and underlings. The remaining would viewed as hostile little better than demons if they demand subservience.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;812824Or, does the world evolve in a different way, with all the races still present? Does technology evolve enough to rival magic? Or does magic still rule (do we have the equivalent of Army Rangers and Navy Seals with magic, for example)?
It was a revolution in thought in conjunction with technology that lead to the industrial revolution. Without each other the result is more of the same, a civilization still subject to the ebbs and flows of nature (plague, climate, etc).
A magical industrial revolution is possible but what form it would take depends on the conditions of its origin. Likely it would give one country a major leg up like it did Great Britain. If that country is part of a region of similar competing powers then likely similar events would occur as in our own history. Wars of revolution, wars of independence, wars to unite, world war between competing alliances, worlds wars between competing philosophies.
Keeping mind that a big difference is the presence of very powerful supernatural powers, the deities.
Assuming a humanist victory in the alt-Reformation. I would predict
An Era of competing nation states with small scale wars.
Followed by an era of revolution as new philosophies took hold about the rights and roles of man.
That the era of revolution would led to a first industrial revolution for a advantage over rival nations.
That the first industrial revolution gives the humanist nations a decisive advantage over the great supernatural powers. As for the first time the humanists can beat them outright rather than wear them down through attrition.
That a conservative reaction to the age of revolution sets in leading to another era of small scale wars.
Competing systems of alliances developed leading to a First World War.
Most humanist nations are devastated from the war and religions centered around the old supernatural great powers return with a vengeance. Along with alternative philosophies like socialism. This leads a even more devastating second world war between the remaining humanist nations, alt-philosophy nations, and the nations that now follow the old supernatural powers.
One wild card in postulating forward D&D is the source of 'monsters' and other races.
In the real world, most large natural predators of mankind got wiped out pretty fast as technology advanced (to vastly simplify what 'technology' means, but hey).
Reasonably, one would expect magic to do similar, except then there's the 'well, why are there still monsters around in the time of magical pseudo-Medieval/Renaissance mashup?'
Depending on what monsters are/come from, you can end up anywhere between a magically based Fallout game or Hitler riding around on a T Rex (http://www.geekoutpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/screen-shot-2014-11-10-at-15-30-13-iron-sky-2-trailer-features-adolf-hitler-riding-a-t-rex-because-why-not.png)...
In how I've read a lot of D&D settings, it feels to me like they are setup to be static. There is rarely an underpinning of undiscovered magical capability as there is the "lost empire" was ruined and magic understanding "lost forever". If you assume more knowledge and control of magic can be mastered...
Our technological advancement is lock step with our scientific advancement. We have learned a lot about how our universe works and how to exploit that knowledge, generally to overcome obstacles to our safety or comfort.
In some ways, I think magic would stunt technological growth (as we know it) as we substituted our magical knowledge to overcome these same issues. Magic would become our science. Why seek out a way to move a turbine when I can magically heat water or magically charm a creature to turn it (or create a construct to do so)? Why seek methods of heating and cooling when magic can do it near effortlessly? Why invent a means of travelling long distance when I can teleport between gates in cities? Why learn about antibiotics and sanitation when I simply head to the local temple, pay a tithe and be healed?
The list of problems solved by technology seems to have magical solutions in equal measure. It seems likely to me that guilds and churches could maintain their societal status indefinitely. Controlling magic knowledge would be paramount from the beginning. I could see "anarchists" trying to make that information available or attempting to learn on their own with various disasters solidifying the populace for the guilds and against unregulated practice. It's going to be very difficult to convince people to not believe in the gods when a) the priests/priestesses are all following their ideals and maintaining piety to keep their divine gifts and b) those divine gifts work!
If the study and practice of magic advanced at the same likeness to technology (magical manufacturing, miniaturization, replication...) I could see a very interesting future...
I could see a future with enormous cities built up in circular patterns (like European countryside) with vast farmlands kept by automatons. Building methods would be magically enhanced for longevity and support. Various remote resources would trade into the cities via "outpost" towns (for fishing, ice farming, game hunting, timber, building rock...).
Cities would all be connected by vast teleportation gate stations, like a train station network. Local travel would be by magical conveyances (flying carriages, automatons built to power "horse-less vehicles", flying ships...). Crystal balls and enchanted mirrors would be networked allowing for advanced communications and broadcasting. Not only would printing presses exist, but again, they would likely be automatons as well. Magically enhanced "cold boxes". Enchanted decorations in houses would control temperature and humidity, water temperature, etc. Magically enchanted wardrobes would clean, fold and press your clothes. Unseen servants would open doors automatically, clean the house, and keep the garden.
Any "machine" would be a construct. This could open up all kinds of interesting ideas like "self aware" machinery or magical corruption that causes some automatons to gain self-awareness and rebel. Magical creatures that are not under the control of a mage could become free and cause havoc across civilized areas. Personal and property security could come with some serious consequences (Minotaur or Beholder guardian? Gnoll park rangers? Hobgoblin personal security force? Pixie body guard?).
I am guessing laws would center around the regulation of magic, using magic to commit crimes. Any police or military forces would have to include mages to counteract criminal mages.
There are a lot of interesting possibilities, but I hardly imagine it would resemble our modern day. It might even advance faster since magic seems to be able to quickly exploit physical laws without the need to understand those underlying physical laws...
Operation Chaos by Anderson does that, extrapolating a modern world from a earth where magic and fantasy elements were real.
WWII happened instead with the Islamic nations and the story starts off with the main characters, a werewolf and a sorceress trying to prevent the release of a Djinn. Instead of cars and aeroplanes they have brooms and carpets. Crystal balls replacing TV and I believe telephones.
TSR's Amazing Engine had the Magitech book which did much the same premise.
d20 modern had the Urban Arcana setting, but never seen it so cannot say how much it actually extrapolated. Apparently not much?
There is also an old SF book whos name I do not recall. But the premise was that free energy and FTL was actually an absurdly easy method that was usually discovered by civilizations in their early eras. And so there was no need to ever discover technologies past it.
Earth just never did.
So there were all these starfaring empires run by effectively at the Roman era of tech. They discover Earth whos been plodding along and we are effectively GODS because we developed guns and nukes and everything else to get into space.
That is also an element in my Red Shetland book. The world is around 800 AD equivalent, but civilization in areas is leaping forward closer to 1200. Helped by the fact that all the races started at a 00 AD level whole cloth rather than having to climb up from nothing. Older races from older iterations took far longer due to their immense lifespans and baser flaws. Dragons took several thousand years to reach a more advanced level and focused mostly on the material. Unicorns took even longer as they advanced forward in magic far. But then stopped as they fell into decadence and boredom. Griffons advanced in totally chaotic spurts and falls due to their self-centered arrogant natures. Advancements were hoarded and filtered to the public sometimes only by force.
I don't see why technology would necessarily go forward. It hasn't for much of our history. And all the smart people would be going into magic.
I realize today it's the in thing to say the Dark Ages weren't that dark, but when you look at the stuff the Romans had, like mechanical reapers (apparently invented by the Celts, actually) and aqueducts and irrigation, their plumbing and heating systems in their buildings.
Look at the cultures of North America. They were stone age, basically, even into modern times. They couldn't even seem to figure out a practical use of the wheel.
Discworld has been doing tech advancement for years so you would end up with Clacks, Personal Disorganisers, Music with Rocks in it, Moving Pictures, intelligent dogs, etc ....
All the things that the old school guys say would never happen in D&D becuase magic is rare and wizards don't want to waste their time destroying castles and spectres don't want to take over the world would eventually happen, on an infinite timeline. You just have to decide the ciritical points where magic becomes science and is taught as such, where when Humans final get pissed off with Elves sneering superiority and when the spectres decide its time to lay down the law.
Are we talking realism here? If so ...
It's pretty tough to say. My eternal answer to "magic replaces technology" is "NFW, because in almost no game system is magic ubiquitous enough to pull it off." How many D&D settings have as many as one in ten capable of magic, let alone practicing magic?
And there's your answer right there. ANYone can use a forged tool. ANY peasant can lead a team of horses wearing horse collars. ANYone can learn to drive a car. You don't have to have the inbred ability to work magic, or years of magical apprenticeship, to do them.
At the same time, scientific advancement happens because people are seeking ways to do things that either aren't being done at all or which can be done better, and for which they can find the financing to experiment. I'm thinking rich patrons are far less likely to put their gold into the pockets of physicists and chemists than into the pockets of wizards.
And beyond that ... every journeyman wizard who can make large volumes of water vanish equals a mine owner who isn't looking for better pumping technology. Every one who can create sustainable high furnace temperatures equals one less opportunity for a John Bessemer to make his name. If enchanters can come out with cheap time-telling items, there's no incentive to make accurate naval chronometers. And so on.
A lot depends on your base assumptions.
Is magic "democratic" in that anyone with 9 Int, literacy and leisure time can learn it, or is there a talent or bloodline requirement that's just assumed when a PC takes the wizard class? Is magic "rational," working the same way every time, or do spells depend on personal horoscopes, ritual consecration and observation of taboos, such that just learning the magic words isn't enough?
Whether you can get a Magitech world at all is going to depend on how you answer those. For myself, I prefer the irrational take on magic, but that's because the magitech approach does nothing for me.
A number of D&D settings have the conceit that gods gain or lose power as they gain or lose followers. That's a big concept! The march of progress in that world doesn't have to be about technology at all. Instead it would be about the spread in faith of a couple big winners out of the deities. So you'd better hope the winning gods are benevolent, but maybe that's their equivalent of the Enlightenment: skeptics and philosophers not denying the gods, but figuring out humans get a say as well, and deciding who to throw their weight behind.
So the future of that world isn't us with crystal balls in place of television, its one world-spanning faith. (Maybe in an artificially kludged together pantheon. "We'll take the elven god of healing, the halfling god of farming... what else?") The form of government may or may not literally be a theocracy, but orthodox faith will be a civic virtue, churches and priests will be omnipresent, divine magic will be powerful, and there may even be freestanding effects as those one or several powerful gods touch the world.
Quote from: Ravenswing;812950Are we talking realism here? If so ...
It's pretty tough to say. My eternal answer to "magic replaces technology" is "NFW, because in almost no game system is magic ubiquitous enough to pull it off." How many D&D settings have as many as one in ten capable of magic, let alone practicing magic?
And there's your answer right there. ANYone can use a forged tool. ANY peasant can lead a team of horses wearing horse collars. ANYone can learn to drive a car. You don't have to have the inbred ability to work magic, or years of magical apprenticeship, to do them.
At the same time, scientific advancement happens because people are seeking ways to do things that either aren't being done at all or which can be done better, and for which they can find the financing to experiment. I'm thinking rich patrons are far less likely to put their gold into the pockets of physicists and chemists than into the pockets of wizards.
And beyond that ... every journeyman wizard who can make large volumes of water vanish equals a mine owner who isn't looking for better pumping technology. Every one who can create sustainable high furnace temperatures equals one less opportunity for a John Bessemer to make his name. If enchanters can come out with cheap time-telling items, there's no incentive to make accurate naval chronometers. And so on.
You can't compare the technology user to the technology creator though. Yes anyone can learn to use a Spinning jenny/automobile/AK47 but not everyone can invent one.
The wizard take the place of the natural philosopher so Newton, Hooke, Copernicus, Wren, Boyle, Farraday, Kalashnikov, Ford are replaced with wizards who create the magical equivalents.
the peasant who can use a forge or a plow can also use a bag of magic seeds, a golem, an everbright lamp. They don't need to know how these things work, just like I don't need to be able to build a computer from raw materials.
The Kvote books have a nice magic tech section where the students at the university design and build inventions which the university then sells on to teh general public (once they have decided that each thing is morally acceptable)
Another example of what a magical culture brought forward might look like is the Wizard society in the Harry Potter books.
I know they're kids books, but it's quite an interesting take on the regulated society of Wizards and how they seem to control or try to control all supernatural beings as well (House elves, Centaurs etc)
They have a very complex council with departments for control for magic and policing.
The "Muggles" being normal humans for the most part aren't even aware of human society.
In a more traditional dnd setting, the non-magical beings would be aware of magic and all that, but their system would work in sync with the magical regulation, so the Wizarding setup could be used in a fantasy setting with some work.
The D&D setting is often presented as having had magic and a Manichean cosmology for a long time (ancient races and artifacts). Just as the specters don't run amuck, there must be something that sustains the status quo; opposing forces in balance is not likely to be a stable equilibrium.
Bemusingly you might get some tech advancements because of magic.
Someone sees a wizard flying by and wants to fly too. So they invent the hang glider.
Someone sees a wizard on a phantom steed and invents bicycle.
Someone sees a wizard using firebolt and fireball and invents the flamethrower and hand grenade.
Someone sees a golem and invents clockwork automata.
And there will be places where thers no mages for some reason and there is where someone may start inventing, not aware that magic does it better and easier. (if you can cast spells)
I figure people have always been incredibly inventive in ways to use what they have around them, and will do much the same with magic.
What's interesting is that magic essentially distorts what is easy or hard, compared to us.
At a very basic level, one of the common ways this happens is with energy. Magic generates or transmutes magic very easily.
But complex machines are still hard...
So you might have reliable refrigeration before you have a card loom.
Quote from: Omega;812975Bemusingly you might get some tech advancements because of magic.
Someone sees a wizard flying by and wants to fly too. So they invent the hang glider.
Someone sees a wizard on a phantom steed and invents bicycle.
Someone sees a wizard using firebolt and fireball and invents the flamethrower and hand grenade.
Someone sees a golem and invents clockwork automata.
And there will be places where thers no mages for some reason and there is where someone may start inventing, not aware that magic does it better and easier. (if you can cast spells)
Not sure the invention process works like that.
You can't invent a bike until you have the right materials and a bike with a chain requires gears and stuff. You are more liekly to invent a bike if you look at a mill grinding wheat than a guy on a ghostly horse.
Same with the other stuff. Its not a case of an iron golem is an artificial man so I will invent clockwork men. Its a case of look at how those gears fit together I bet you could use gears like that to make a creature that moved through gears.
Quote from: Will;812979I figure people have always been incredibly inventive in ways to use what they have around them, and will do much the same with magic.
What's interesting is that magic essentially distorts what is easy or hard, compared to us.
At a very basic level, one of the common ways this happens is with energy. Magic generates or transmutes magic very easily.
But complex machines are still hard...
So you might have reliable refrigeration before you have a card loom.
That is a very interestng point and you could tie it to specific spelsl.
In 5e terms the firebolt cantrip is effectively a limitless supply of energy you could harness this to provide a host of stuff, just like 1e unseen servants could be used to power a treadmill to generate free electricity.
I'm going to bring up
Eberron since no one has yet. I'm running my current game pretty much as if it were the modern era without even altering the setting assumptions, what with...
corporations (dragonmarked houses)
airlines (teleportation and airships)
telecommunication (speaking stones)
mass media (magic enhanced newspaper printing and distribution, recorded illusions)
hotels (house Ghallanda)
proto-skyscrapers (immovable-rod enhanced architecture)
taxis (elemental carriages)
Labor-saving appliances (widespread use of cantrips and 1st level spells)
James Bond gadgets (industrialized low-level magic item manufacturing)
firearms (the prevalence of shooty cantrips)
security and hacking (the arms race to develop better warding and ward-beating magic)
nuclear weapons (the mourning)
modern finance (house Kundarak)
modern medicine (house Jorasco)
etc...
Quote from: TristramEvans;812830I ran a longterm Shadowrun campaign that took place in a near-future Ravenloft
Technically, within the base setting it is totally natural to feature a Ravenloft domain that has modern or future levels of technology, given how the demi-plane is said to grab pieces of worlds all across existence.
Quote from: rawma;812963The D&D setting is often presented as having had magic and a Manichean cosmology for a long time (ancient races and artifacts). Just as the specters don't run amuck, there must be something that sustains the status quo; opposing forces in balance is not likely to be a stable equilibrium.
Powerful supernatural deities with an agenda dominating the goals of the sentient races.
I.e. gods.
The clerics are what keeps the status quo going. The conservationism is reinforced by the natural inclinations of the longer lived races especially the elves.
I can certainly think of a few revolutionary ideas that could mess up the status quo, and cause any fantasy world to become more "modern", and even forcing magic to become more scientific, and make non-magical science more interesting:
* Orc Emanciption Movement
* Thaum wants to be free (magic for everyone)
* One God Concept
* The Gathering for disarming the Mages(Magic is too powerful)
* Obey the Dragons
Wow, lots of well thought out, compelling ideas so far. You too Will. I don't mind checking out your posts here.
I guess that I was drawing too much from my notion of Arthurian pastiches based on the idea that as Christianity/"Progress" spread it pushed back the old beliefs and the magical/supernatural beings "into the mists." After reading the discussion here, I think there was really no reason for me to assume that since I guess the fairy people in those legends are of a different nature than the tolkienish ones. I'm really just talking out of my ass here.
Some random thoughts:
Contrasting Estar's alt-humanistic vision with Trechriron and other's more magic centered vision, I guess the question for me is, is there anything in the implied setting that would hint at there being at least some pockets with humanist tendencies? If not, then I could see the magic/divine centered vision dominating the future as proposed in other posts.
Given that the mechanics tie a high INT to an ability to handle magic, I guess it logically follows that intelligent people would go into the magical path. The only things that occur to me as a negative incentive to do that would be if magic users were generally untrusted (which would be true in some S&S incarnations, I think), or the learning curve (assuming focusing on improving technology has a lower learning curve compared to magic).
The other thing is that there has obviously been some technology advancements: the wheel, steel as opposed to stone weapons, the bow and the crossbow. So it seems to me there is also some precendent in the implied setting for at least some people looking for technological improvements. Otherwise, would it stand to reason that you'd see magically souped up stone age tools & weapons? What do you think?
One more thing, in reading a blog post about the "quadratic wizard vs linear fighter", the author was talking about how in versions prior to 3.0, there were character options to acquire a realm or domain. He says that what kept the fighter viable vs a wizard was the size of his force, while the wizard was envisioned as a more solitary type of force to reckon with. Would this imply some sort of built in distrust of wizards? If so, do you think it would be an incentive for fighters with a domain to improve technology to offset wizards? Even if wizards were trusted, wouldn't non magic users still want to offset that power?
As an aside, I've often thought of fun ways to make use of magic to drive technology.
For example, you can make a permanent wall of fire (in 3e, at least). That, to savvy dwarves, would be AMAZING -- make a boiler system.
Or reverse gravity to power a perpetual flywheel (put part of the wheel in the reversed gravity and the thing should spin up pretty fast).
D&D has often had this 'dwarven/gnome tinker' element to it which suggests a fair amount of potential technological application.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;813017The other thing is that there has obviously been some technology advancements: the wheel, steel as opposed to stone weapons, the bow and the crossbow. So it seems to me there is also some precendent in the implied setting for at least some people looking for technological improvements. Otherwise, would it stand to reason that you'd see magically souped up stone age tools & weapons? What do you think?
One more thing, in reading a blog post about the "quadratic wizard vs linear fighter", the author was talking about how in versions prior to 3.0, there were character options to acquire a realm or domain. He says that what kept the fighter viable vs a wizard was the size of his force, while the wizard was envisioned as a more solitary type of force to reckon with. Would this imply some sort of built in distrust of wizards? If so, do you think it would be an incentive for fighters with a domain to improve technology to offset wizards? Even if wizards were trusted, wouldn't non magic users still want to offset that power?
I think the choice of weapon tech is set to an arbitrary time period, late middle ages, just because that was the time period that comes across from the inspirational literature. There is no concept of technology or improvement more like the idea of a degeneration from a previous halcyon age when all these magic items were constructed and a load of folks built underground complexes (usually with no ventilation or flooding issues ....) . Its a very dying earth idea even suggestions that the 1e default setting is a post apocalyptic one and that the magic you find are remnants of old tech.
The fighter stronghold stuff is just stuff. To be honest the 0 level troops that the fighter gets would last about a round against a high level wizard so ... moot. Also remember that for some reason the cleric gets more troops than the fighter, they are fanatically loyal and the cleric's stronghold cost 1/2 the fighter stronghold price to build. The trope is simply that fighters rule kingdoms and wizards do arcane research in lonely towers perhaps with an apprentice and a bunch of magical constructs/flying monkey guards.
Quote from: Will;813020D&D has often had this 'dwarven/gnome tinker' element to it which suggests a fair amount of potential technological application.
I remember that from Dragonlance, but I'm not sure if other settings had it.
Well, there's also alchemy. I mean, in 3e, you had tangler grenades (very SciFi! Tanglefoot bags), incendiaries (alchemical flask), lights (sun rods, those might be enchant rather than alchemy), and a few other things.
When I was poking at the idea of SciFi D&D, I found a lot of low level gear maps pretty easily to futuristic stuff... I mean, potions of healing? HEAL PACK
Quote from: jibbajibba;813022I think the choice of weapon tech is set to an arbitrary time period, late middle ages, just because that was the time period that comes across from the inspirational literature. There is no concept of technology or improvement more like the idea of a degeneration from a previous halcyon age when all these magic items were constructed and a load of folks built underground complexes (usually with no ventilation or flooding issues ....) . Its a very dying earth idea even suggestions that the 1e default setting is a post apocalyptic one and that the magic you find are remnants of old tech.
The fighter stronghold stuff is just stuff. To be honest the 0 level troops that the fighter gets would last about a round against a high level wizard so ... moot. Also remember that for some reason the cleric gets more troops than the fighter, they are fanatically loyal and the cleric's stronghold cost 1/2 the fighter stronghold price to build. The trope is simply that fighters rule kingdoms and wizards do arcane research in lonely towers perhaps with an apprentice and a bunch of magical constructs/flying monkey guards.
Hmm, I think that even with the assumption of a post-apoc setting, someone prior to the fall cared enough to improve technology. Unless, you think that the implied setting never went through a stone age? Perhaps. Maybe, prior to the apocalypse, they never had to go through a stone age period because the gods or some other extraterrestial/extradimensional beings gave them the knowledge of these things? Just extrapolating...
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;813017Contrasting Estar's alt-humanistic vision with Trechriron and other's more magic centered vision, I guess the question for me is, is there anything in the implied setting that would hint at there being at least some pockets with humanist tendencies? If not, then I could see the magic/divine centered vision dominating the future as proposed in other posts.
The polytheistic pantheon of squalling deities. Like the Greeks, a thinking man would eventually go "You are shitting me, these are the beings we are living and dying for? There got to be something better. Rules that even the mighty are beholden too."
One thread of thought led to philosophy and science, the another to the great religions of our world.
The big difference is that a D&D setting would have powerful supernatural deities ultimately capable of "blue bolting" any opposition along with their clerical lackeys. Mind you blue bolting does mean it has to be a literal blue bolt. It could be something like the local priests of the healing goddess taking in a deranged "philosopher" for rest and a "cure" to restore his former faith.
In most cases it won't be very overt or ornerous. Some of these deities have genuine concern for the well-being of humanity. But there will be those who resent being a "pet" even of the most benevolent of supernatural being.
There will a come a time where circumstance will conspire to produce a near total societal collapse like the late Roman Empire. That when the humanists will make their gains. And they would be centered around wizards as they are the only group with an independent source of supernatural power open to anybody to learn. Sorcerors are born, warlocks are beholden to a patron. The rest, clerics, druids, rangers, etc. are part of the divine hierarchy.
And a likely area of development is the use of wizards by thieves. In D&D 5e Arcane Trickters for example. Thieves want power and wealth and use magic to that end. During times of stability, it is a underground criminal activity. During times of chaos it becomes a path to power just like the warlord's swords or the faithful of a zealot's flock.
Understand what you are going for is plausible not probable. There are so many variables that it is hard to predict how something is. Choices build on choices, etc.
What you need to do what people who write on the alternate history forum (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/) do.
They start with a moment in time, propose a single change, and then work out the implications over time. Their work at each step is judged on plausibility, unless it is a wank and explicitly meant as escapist fun.
With your kind of speculation you need to sketch out what you consider a D&D setting, then start developing it forward. Each step forward in time can be judges whether it is plausible given the circumstances.
I just can't imagine how profound a difference it would make if early humans (or whatever) had access to people who could just... make fire.
... I just had an amusing thought -- in the real world, intelligence and problem solving was a survival strategy selected for by evolution because of how useful 'figuring shit out' is.
In D&D those same traits would be selected for once early humanoids started figuring out that certain things could create magical effects.
Heh
Quote from: Will;812979I figure people have always been incredibly inventive in ways to use what they have around them, and will do much the same with magic.
Technological progress, (counting magic as a source of innovation), is dependent on a multitude of factors.
In order for magic to exploited (or water power, or better ways of growing crops, etc) the circumstances have be right.
The biggest obstacle to overcome is the fact that there is so little surplus in the pre-industrial economy. A more plentiful food supply means a larger population with the same margins to support non-agricultural activity. It took a cascade of changes until the cycle was broken in western Europe during the late 18th century.
It wasn't people were idiots in the past, just more risk adverse, with little resources or time to throw at figuring better ways to do things.
Quote from: Will;813029I just can't imagine how profound a difference it would make if early humans (or whatever) had access to people who could just... make fire.
... I just had an amusing thought -- in the real world, intelligence and problem solving was a survival strategy selected for by evolution because of how useful 'figuring shit out' is.
One theory that has a lot of support was that intelligence developed because of a "social" arms race. Smarter pre-humans could manipulate their fellow tribesmen to gain more food, and above all more women.
That the part of the brain that got enhanced to deal with more complex social situation also was useful to figure shit out.
Quote from: Will;813029In D&D those same traits would be selected for once early humanoids started figuring out that certain things could create magical effects.
Understand that to early human society in our world the world was already a magical place. While the particulars would be different the general development of humanity would not be any different with magic.
For example we know that we don't have a inherent need to wander around. In our history many people settled down in one place when they means to do so. In our history the tool that enabled this was agriculture. People who adopted a different tool, pastoralism, continued to wander except instead beholden to whatever game animal happened to live in the area, they moved their food, goats, sheeps, cows, etc, with them.
The same with magic, if human figure out a way to create food and water with magic then they will start to settle.
In the end what develops depends on the rules and circumstances of the setting.
Sure... I highly advise people check out Ancient Inventions, the book and then documentary series, which outlines a lot of this sort of thing. Well, RL stuff.
The comment made repeatedly is that inventions need two things: an idea, and a perceived need.
One without the other, and amazing inventions remain curios, like Heron of Alexandria's steam engine.
Quote from: Will;813020As an aside, I've often thought of fun ways to make use of magic to drive technology.
...
These are awesome ideas.
Yeah, lots of good discussion in here. If I had pursued a degree in Anthropology or Sociology of some kind, this would make an interesting topic for a thesis. I would have to rope in experts from psychology to engineering I think to really research all the angles.
On the subject of cause/effect...
We discovered fire by observing lightning and then creating sparks by smashing rocks, yes? If one of the people of the tribe could create fire by snapping their fingers, would that have still inspired the same development in the use of fire? Instead of teaching people to bang rocks together, wouldn't that one mage just teach another mage, and so on? If magic can be taught/learned, wouldn't lots of people learn how to start fire magically vs. mundanely? Would that not be a faster method of advancing technology? I no longer need to perform the same laborious action, nor do I have the failure rate of even more modern methods like matches. I just instantly get fire.
On those same lines, then wouldn't we just solve the same problems with magical solutions as we discovered magical effects? If magic can be studied and new effects extrapolated somehow, wouldn't some of these revelations have come faster? It seems to me the nature of magic is to bypass the mundane. We wouldn't need to understand ANY physics to fly, heat, cool, move, travel instantly, etc. It seems to me like civilization would "modernize" faster and maintain that status longer. As problems were solved quicker, our hungry spirits would seek out new unknowns to conquer. Ocean exploration? Space exploration? Colonization?
I like the possibilities for a RPG setting... :-)
The same setting with the once-global empire lizardman also had a European analog nation with vaguely 1800s tech based on alchemy.
The concept is that Magic, if anything, makes it easier to study and learn about the natural world, and finding shortcuts or understanding the world makes it easier to do things to it.
So there were trains and firearms that were mostly tech, except for small magical widgets to liberate energy from coal or whatever.
And floating ships, because that's fairly easy with magic.
Come to think of it, you could quite satisfactorily do Steampunk as magitech, and I think anime and other stuff has beaten us to THAT punch.
Anyone ever play Castle Falkenstein? That was a wild alt hist Magic/tech rpg.
Another thought... I think Sagan framed the idea of civilizations being typed by source of energy.
So, personal muscle, using animals, wood, coal, gasoline, fission, fusion...
The cool thing about Magic is that it makes it FAR easier to skip a bit ahead.
Quote from: jibbajibba;812955You can't compare the technology user to the technology creator though. Yes anyone can learn to use a Spinning jenny/automobile/AK47 but not everyone can invent one.
The wizard take the place of the natural philosopher so Newton, Hooke, Copernicus, Wren, Boyle, Farraday, Kalashnikov, Ford are replaced with wizards who create the magical equivalents.
the peasant who can use a forge or a plow can also use a bag of magic seeds, a golem, an everbright lamp. They don't need to know how these things work, just like I don't need to be able to build a computer from raw materials.
And there just aren't enough enchanters to do that, in most game systems, D&D included.
The Potterverse is certainly an interesting example of how this might spin out, but the point to remember is this:
everyone who counts is either a wizard or a member of a magical race. The people who can't do magic are a despised and pitied minority who are lucky if they can get menial work.
Quote from: jibbajibba;812984Not sure the invention process works like that.
You can't invent a bike until you have the right materials and a bike with a chain requires gears and stuff. You are more liekly to invent a bike if you look at a mill grinding wheat than a guy on a ghostly horse.
Same with the other stuff. Its not a case of an iron golem is an artificial man so I will invent clockwork men. Its a case of look at how those gears fit together I bet you could use gears like that to make a creature that moved through gears.
I meant that like watching birds fly, it sparks an idea of "I can do this without magic. But... HOW?" and then going out and possibly hitting on the mill idea or anything else handy to draw upon.
One of the early proto bikes did not have a chain or drive to it. But most D&D settings are far along enough that there are chain and gear driven traps so who knows what someone might come up with.
One of the Guardians of the Flame books took it the other way. One of the characters was making muskets and keeping the process a well guarded secret. The slaver guild wizards eventually equipped some troops with muskets too. But the ball was propelled by a tiny fireball explosion in a chamber since they could not figure out the gunpowder. But did puzzle out the baser idea.
Quote from: Catelf;813006* Orc Emanciption Movement
SPI's Swords & Sorcery had the Orcish Revolutionary Council (ORC); I think they were based in New Orc City.
Quote from: rawma;813169SPI's Swords & Sorcery had the Orcish Revolutionary Council (ORC); I think they were based in New Orc City.
I just cant help picturing the end of Gremlins 2, with all them singing "New Orc, New Orc..."
There was at least one article in Dragon on playing a pre-historc level setting. There were level limits on clerics and magic users such that they were about equivalent to humanoid shamans and witchdoctors.
The presence of magic would probably stunt any sort of real innovation and strangle science in the crib. Most invention has come from necessity. When you can just cast a magic spell to do it, there is no pressing reason for any resourcefulness.
Magic + Scientific advancement in a future D&D -like world?
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Quote from: Ravenswing;813110And there just aren't enough enchanters to do that, in most game systems, D&D included.
The Potterverse is certainly an interesting example of how this might spin out, but the point to remember is this: everyone who counts is either a wizard or a member of a magical race. The people who can't do magic are a despised and pitied minority who are lucky if they can get menial work.
And how exactly is that different from how the proles are viewed by the 1% these days ? ... :)
If wizard = Savant (newton, hooke, et al) then I think its a pretty robust anaology.
Quote from: TristramEvans;813203Magic + Scientific advancement in a future D&D -like world?
MotU has strong roots in D&D and the same stuff D&D was rooted in. Larry DiTillio, who wrote a lot of scripts for the Filmation cartoon (and a couple for the 200X relaunch), got the job in large part because of his gaming background, and Granamyr and Lord Masque come from his own campaigns. :)
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;813197The presence of magic would probably stunt any sort of real innovation and strangle science in the crib. Most invention has come from necessity. When you can just cast a magic spell to do it, there is no pressing reason for any resourcefulness.
Actually there is MORE pressing need. The non mages may be forced to come up with mechanical means to meet that magical might. All it takes is one person with the means and skill and the urge to do it.
Unless everyone is a caster then there will be those without and they will eventually come up with mechanical methods to emulate. Unless the mages are providing for the mundanes every need.
I did sci-fi with fantasy elements, if done well. I dig gonzo fantasy with sci-fi elements. But I don't really dig "modern day world with fantasy", for some reason.
Overt magic, like 'Cast a Deadly Spell' (ok, modern-ISH), or covert, like WoD?
Quote from: Will;814446Overt magic, like 'Cast a Deadly Spell' (ok, modern-ISH), or covert, like WoD?
Yeah, good question. I really dig setting like the one in Final Fantasy VIII, where it's a different (i.e. not ours) but modern world with magic and tech built into society without everything being completely alien.
I don't dig "exactly our world and history, but with monsters and magic" anymore.
Fairly common in anime too.
Sometimes leftovers from an older era. Sometimes just developed in tandem.
Vampire Hunter D was interesting in that its premise was that certain supernatural creatures were real and took advantage of some past cataclysm to take over. So you had low level magic, supernatural beings, mutants, and varying levels of technology.
The Marvel cartoon Visionaries was another fun take on the idea with the age of technology ending and the age of magic returning. Eventually hybrids of the two developing.
Quote from: Omega;814518The Marvel cartoon Visionaries was another fun take on the idea with the age of technology ending and the age of magic returning. Eventually hybrids of the two developing.
Oooh, I remember the pilot for that one, yes. Thanks for reminding me of its name. Someone around here was using an avatar from that show for a while I think.
Anyway, it felt more post-apoc than modern + fantasy to me.
Today an interesting blog post related to this topic made it into my G+ feed:
http://www.lostkingdom.net/the-porcelain-argument-magic-versus-technology/
It says that the discovery of porcelain by the Chinese, prevented the development of glass, which was critical to things like telescopes, eye glasses, etc.
It takes that argument, but replaces porcelain with magic.