How will that impact your purchasing decisions, and your gaming choices?
(I ran out of character space in the thread title.)
Zilch
I've already said FUCK OFF to both WotC and Paizo. If either company produces anything I really want, I will buy it 2nd hand.
There are thousands of RPGs out there, many equal or superior to what WotC or Paizo produce. They deserve our patronage instead.
I don't like their products, so not at all.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/joNVQCtuecqHK/giphy.gif)
Essentially what Spinachat said. I'd not have anything D&D related or derived if it wasn't for playing with my group.
Quote from: Razor 007;1057376How will that impact your purchasing decisions, and your gaming choices?
It doesn't and won't.
I have been growing away from WotC D&D since 4E came out because of the corporate driven culture surrounding the game. This latest embracing of social justice by WotC and Paizo only accelerates the process.
I'm with Spinachcat, if either company produces a product that I am interested in then I will acquire it, but neither company will get my money.
Quote from: jeff37923;1057391It doesn't and won't.
I have been growing away from WotC D&D since 4E came out because of the corporate driven culture surrounding the game. This latest embracing of social justice by WotC and Paizo only accelerates the process.
I'm with Spinachcat, if either company produces a product that I am interested in then I will acquire it, but neither company will get my money.
I'm with you both as well. Though I will admit beyond disliking the 2E playtest Paizo jumping on the SocJus train and doing it in such a poor way in their playtest core was a big factor as well.
Idc if they go full SJW. I only care that full SJW tends to be bad media (thinks human difference are interesting, intolerant of different thought leads to a complete lack of diversity in the world or heroes, ect)
It'll only effect my forum conversations, which hopefully will drift to other games as everyone gets sick of the main brand.
Paizo went full dumbass years ago. I don't buy their products. Not because of their politics but because of a lack of interest. The same is true of D&D. I already don't buy their stuff, so when they inevitably go full dumbass, it will simply be a foot note.
I only buy main physical books and rules supplements for D&D 5th Edition. I haven't been buying the adventure material or PDF offerings. So I haven't really seen much of the SJW stuff people have claimed to have seen pop up. So it really hasn't effected me.
With Paizo? I haven't been buying anything Pathfinder related.
It won't, because I have enough Dungeons and Dragons stuff to last several lifetimes.
Pathfinder is just knockoff D&D, so see above.
Pathfinder is garbage so not at all. D&D it'll depend on how much it seeps into their published material. As much as "muh diversity" bothers me I can whitewash it all away (alt-right shitlord that I am). If I can still enjoy Hollyweird's products I can still enjoy D&D if the material is any good.
If they become full bore SJW platforms but still release nice reprints/pdfs of the classical stuff (i.e. ACTUAL D&D in my book) then I'll buy THAT. 5th Edition is not to my taste anyway. :cool:
I will be forced to run my campaigns like Harlequin Romances set in 'United Colors of Benetton' Seattle. :( Otherwise I may face sanction! :eek: They'll be like Forrest Gump 'Box of Chocolates' Bodice Rippers, "you'll never know what you're gonna get." :o
Or maybe not, who knows, it may have no effect upon my already non-existent purchases. :rolleyes:
I don't buy anything from either WotC (with exception for some PoD TSR products) or Paizo anymore. With the SJW tendency as a main factor. Same with several other games and publishers. Saves some money.
But I also started to boycott other media I think has gone completely bonkers in this aspect. Which is well... most Hollywood crap, Netflix, anything Star Wars etc. I just can't find any joy in it anymore. Im borderlining weboo territory since much of my entertainment media come from japanese crap this days except from western classics. There is much shitty weird cringe anime crap also. But at least you at least can find some diamonds in shitpile.
Honestly, it'll probably help me.
Going "Woke" is a surefire way to drive more people away from Official D&D and into similar systems without such drivel... such as the one I'm putting the finishing touches on.
The OSR experience is pretty well covered already, but if unified mechanics, tighter math, lots of character options, tactical combat and monsters with interesting abilities (though you'll have to look elsewhere for narrative-based mechanics) appeal to you; I'll have all that to offer without any SJW baggage dragging it down.
It's one of the key reasons I never bought into 5E D&D, tied with 'why drop $100 on a system when I can roll my own out of Basic, 2E, and/or C&C?' :)
Paizo long ago lost me due to their daemonophilia and doubling-down on 3.5, a rules set I haven't had any time for in years. If I want that kind of complexity, I'll go with HERO and get the increased flexibility and transparency with considerably less progressive material in the products. :)
Pelgrane and Green Ronin ... those are the companies that did actively lose my business due to their doubling-down on the progressive agenda. I'm willing to accept that I might be oversensitive, but I think they really don't want someone like me as a fan of their material.
It will mean my plans to buy a few core pieces of 5E stuff as gifts over the next year will go out the window. I already have the core stuff from them, and that's all WotC produces that I have any interest in owning. That's from someone happily running two 5E home brew campaigns. I like the stuff I do with the core 5E far better than anything they have done with it.
Even if Paizo wasn't political at all, if they delivered their full catalog to me tomorrow, free, I'd unload the stuff straight from their truck to the garbage can. I have negative interest in anything PF (or 3E/3.5 related, for that matter). "Zero interest" would radically understate the situation.
I actually really like the Core 3 D&D 5E books, plus Volo's and Xanathar's. This combined product offering was a heck of a rebound from the previous edition's failure to gain enough traction in the market. Congratulations for finding a way to make lots of people happy, or at least happier...
What concerns me, is the journey I believe both 5E and PF are about to embark upon. It may just become a frothing competition to prove which company "Cares" more about the overly sensitive creampuffs in today's society. Hey folks, this is SILLY!!! Haha!!!
I won't buy any Paizo material post 2012. Would be different if they'd put a content advisory on stuff but they don't so I won't.
I guess I could imagine doing the same with post 2017 WoTC since they do now seem to be on the same downward slope as Paizo ca 2010-2012.
I think that in terms of "inclusiveness" D&D 5th was just right and PF Playtest is too heavy-handed. In any case while my playtest group likes 2nd Edition in play, the text is that much more awkward gamespeak than original Pathfinder, and if anything kills sales, it will be the idea that the game is harder to grasp than the Pathfinder system that everybody knows. But I gave up attaching myself to the paradigm that RPGs must be D&D/D20-based quite some time ago, so if company management becomes insufferable, I have other options.
JG
Wouldn't affect me in the least, I don't buy stuff from them and neither does anyone else in my gaming group.
I should also say that from my perspective; the Pathfinder CRB, APG, and UM are a versatile product offering too. I'm neither anti D&D, nor anti Pathfinder. I just hate to see either, or both teams make a mad dash to market their wares wholesale to the Creampuffs of society. Don't they realize that will alienate a portion of their existing fan base? You know, people who are already supporting their salaries...
I stopped buying Paizo in 2013. Not because of politics (because I really don't buy/not buy things for political reasons), but because I didn't like the rules bloat of Pathfinder. I've made one exception--the Starfinder Core--but I regret that purchase and have not bought anything further in the line.
WOTC, Paizo, and the scrub-tier orgs who orbit them can all die in a fire for all I care. I've got enough for the rest of my days.
I have to appreciate where their hearts are at, even if the execution is somewhat... over emphasized?
It's a pendulum of sociology. Things swing to extremes until eventually things calm down and level-out. Hopefully, the melodrama will give way to actual inclusivity and the respectful treatment of all gamers regardless of race, religion or sexuality. Once the CTRL-LEFT's hatred and vitriol fade away, and the ALT-RIGHT's hatred and vitriol fade away... I imagine we will be left with a nice middle ground of people who give a shit about fun play, fun environments to play in, and awesome products that inspire fun play.
If we stop circling the wagons at each assumed sleight, if we relax and focus on what's important, these fires will die out. Posts like this only fuel the fires. People from across the InterTubes seek out this hand-wringing and delight in your concern.
Don't fret. Play the games you love with the people you respect. Have fun. This too shall pass.
Would affect me to the tune of zilch, zero, not at all. If I wanted to play a fantasy game, I'd go with an OSR or Palladium Fantasy.
Quote from: Razor 007;1057376How will that impact your purchasing decisions, and your gaming choices?
(I ran out of character space in the thread title.)
Why would I give them any of my very limited entertainment funds when I could be buying more ACKS? Or any OSR for that matter?
I don't care one whit about the politics of any game company; never have, never will. I buy games that I like because they're games I want to play. I no longer play 5th, and I no longer play Pathfinder. I play OSR games because they're better (http://satyr.press/), better, (https://noisms-games.squarespace.com/creations/yoon-suin-the-purple-land) better (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/products/vornheim), better (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/products/carcosa), better (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=136), better (http://www.autarch.co/)
Everything linked is something I vouch for; I own it, I've used it at the table, and it's of universally higher quality and utility than anything I've ever purchased for D&D since buying 3rd edition (and I own and have ran every edition between then and now, 3.5 and fifth included) and Pathfinder (which I do not own, but have ran over a 1st-15th level campaign).
So let 'em do whatever they want. They lost me as a customer years ago, when I found a thriving movement of creators making something I want to play much more
Quote from: Azraele;1057444Why would I give them any of my very limited entertainment funds when I could be buying more ACKS? Or any OSR for that matter?
I don't care one whit about the politics of any game company; never have, never will. I buy games that I like because they're games I want to play. I no longer play 5th, and I no longer play Pathfinder. I play OSR games because they're better (http://satyr.press/), better, (https://noisms-games.squarespace.com/creations/yoon-suin-the-purple-land) better (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/products/vornheim), better (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/products/carcosa), better (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=136), better (http://www.autarch.co/)
Everything linked is something I vouch for; I own it, I've used it at the table, and it's of universally higher quality and utility than anything I've ever purchased for D&D since buying 3rd edition (and I own and have ran every edition between then and now, 3.5 and fifth included) and Pathfinder (which I do not own, but have ran over a 1st-15th level campaign).
So let 'em do whatever they want. They lost me as a customer years ago, when I found a thriving movement of creators making something I want to play much more
I appreciate what you are saying about the OSR. When I purchased my first OSR game, White Box FMAG; and I compared that to all editions of D&D which came out after OD&D: I wondered why anyone ever enjoyed the ever increasing complexity? I just want to roll dice and have fun. I don't want to pour over a set of encyclopedias every time I level up. Just give me an ASI and let's move along.
OSR material does tend to be of higher quality IME than most other offerings; I'm not really sure exactly why that is. I use 80%-90% OSR material in all my FRPG campaigns, certainly including 5e. 5e has enough of an OSR tone that they work very well together. I am somewhat tempted to just use say Swords & Wizardry, which I am running occasionally (along with OSRIC), but standardising my Meetup on 5e D&D has worked very well and maximises accessibility for new players.
Edit: I guess if WoTC took things to Paizo levels to such an extent that new players were turning up looking for "D&D - The Social Justice RPG" then I would probably scrap my 5e-specific Meetup and run OSR instead. I'm paying money every month to Meetup.com to support 5e D&D and get dozens of people playing it and buying 5e books. I might have to reconsider my life choices. :)
Quote from: Azraele;1057444I play OSR games because they're better (http://satyr.press/), better, (https://noisms-games.squarespace.com/creations/yoon-suin-the-purple-land) better (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/products/vornheim), better (http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/products/carcosa), better (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=136), better (http://www.autarch.co/)
Everything linked is something I vouch for; I own it, I've used it at the table, and it's of universally higher quality and utility [...]
I totally agree. Yoon Suin has been so useful for my strange land type weird fantasy game. I got the Blue Medusa PDF and have used pieces of it but never ran it straight. I use the tables in Vornheim every game session and have for years now.
I think I have enough OSR material for the rest of my days even if I ran twice as many games as I do.
If WotC and Paizo continue to try to turn game publishing into a form of activism, they can just be ignored. And as well, they'll probably create a wider pool of potential players and GMs for games that are about gaming first and only.
This would have no effect on me at all. Most RPG companies seem to fail to communicate what value they are adding in a new version. Since the previous version I like isn't 'broken' and is still playable, I need more justification of a new version other than the company reaching market saturation (based on whatever they have reached and decided to give up) and so now needing a new version.
If both companies disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't change much. There are so many interesting new games and OSR variants out there that I have few worries about RPGs disappearing as a result. Some of the content IP for D&D Id miss, but I can't say that Golorion or Pathfinder for that matter has much that was original to begin with. But then, I have a ton of the D&D stuff already - and how many versions of mostly similar material (like re-released modules) do you really need if you already have one or two?
Quote from: Razor 007;1057376How will that impact your purchasing decisions, and your gaming choices?
(I ran out of character space in the thread title.)
I've allready stopped buying Paizo material and if WOTC started really pushing the agenda with 5e then I'd stop supporting that too. Though would depend greatly on the level of the problem. WOTC is all the hell over the place right now with how they are acting so its hard to pin down if some of these weird stunts are company wide, or just a factions agenda. and the ever growing problem of trying to sort out what is actual agenda from "neat idea I want to put in a book!".
That and the problem of sorting out personal vs company. Mearl's infamous "You are fired from D&D!" statement being a prime example.
Quote from: S'mon;1057457OSR material does tend to be of higher quality IME than most other offerings; I'm not really sure exactly why that is.
In my experience, it can be one or more of several things.
It might be the willingness to take risks with the game system and/or genre: e.g. DCC, LotFP, Black Pudding, Lion & Dragon, Wormskin,
It might be the well concise, comprehensive and cohesive rules: Fantastic Heroes & Witchery, ACKS, S&W, Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, LFG
It might be the great value for money or the plethora of gaming material or the inventiveness of the settings and adventures.
In BtW I like the fact that there is a real focus on the players as the protagonists, not NPCs, and that the GM is the author of his campaign, not some celebrity author.
Actually, now you mention it, there's a whole host of reasons why OSR is better and nostaligia doesn't play such an important role
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1057473Actually, now you mention it, there's a whole host of reasons why OSR is better and nostaligia doesn't play such an important role
Many authors seem to really pour their hearts into OSR and produce amazing gems. Something about the OD&D or BX D&D base seems to be very inspirational.
Seeing as I'm part of the AL, I'd be fucked sideways from Sunday.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057475Seeing as I'm part of the AL, I'd be fucked sideways from Sunday.
That's just a form of enthusiastic inclusiveness, now you're getting it!
Quote from: S'mon;1057474Many authors seem to really pour their hearts into OSR and produce amazing gems. Something about the OD&D or BX D&D base seems to be very inspirational.
Agreed. This Summer I got my hands on Midderlands and Midderlands Expanded and everythig from the artwork to the binding yelled "Labour of Love".
Fantastic Heroes and Witchery is probably the best example of a labour of love, imho. I bought a second copy just to give it more support and to know that I have a spare copy.
1. IMO, they already have, whether their gaming products fully express it yet or not.
2. No effect on me. I've never bought any Pathfinder or Starfinder, and I've only bought the D&D Starter Set and Players Handbook for 5e. My gaming dollars, relatively few as they are, have been going elsewhere and will continue to do so.
One issue I see is that this type of activism affects hiring choices, which means poorer quality material in the long run. While OSR tends to be the craft beer of RPGs, Pathfinder/5E as the Bud Light tends to be a larger intro for people into the hobby. I think the biggest impact to me if those companies eat their own tail would be a breakup of things like the adventure league and pathfinder/starfinder societies. Having those go away would probably mean every event at your local hobby store is MTG, another card game, minis, and board gaming which would make that environment less of a social hub for rpgs.
I'm not sure if any other company would be in a position to pick up that slack. Maybe FFG, but I'm not sure if Star Wars RPG day at the local gaming store type of event promotion is on their radar.
No effect at all since I'm not interested in either.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1057423(...) Even if Paizo wasn't political at all, if they delivered their full catalog to me tomorrow, free, I'd unload the stuff straight from their truck to the garbage can. I have negative interest in anything PF (or 3E/3.5 related, for that matter). "Zero interest" would radically understate the situation.
This. I've never seen the appeal of Pathf%#&er and Starf%#&er.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1057473In my experience, it can be one or more of several things.
It might be the willingness to take risks with the game system and/or genre: e.g. DCC, LotFP, Black Pudding, Lion & Dragon, Wormskin,
It might be the well concise, comprehensive and cohesive rules: Fantastic Heroes & Witchery, ACKS, S&W, Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, LFG
It might be the great value for money or the plethora of gaming material or the inventiveness of the settings and adventures.
In BtW I like the fact that there is a real focus on the players as the protagonists, not NPCs, and that the GM is the author of his campaign, not some celebrity author.
Actually, now you mention it, there's a whole host of reasons why OSR is better and nostaligia doesn't play such an important role
And this. The only "D&D" products I own or am interested in picking up are OSR/retroclone books.
I've
played core D&D 5E exactly once and enjoyed it well enough, but it didn't wow me into wanting to own any of the books myself, let alone
run it. That was the only D&D experience I ever had.
Quote from: Dracones;1057506...
I'm not sure if any other company would be in a position to pick up that slack. ...
That is largely the issue. Why do we need a company to run games at your FLGS? OSR games are gems. More people should just bring them to their FLGS and run them. Get the owners to stock them. The hobby at this juncture of easy desktop publishing and digital distribution systems and quality POD doesn't need big corporate D&D any longer.
Quote from: Lynn;1057464This would have no effect on me at all. Most RPG companies seem to fail to communicate what value they are adding in a new version. Since the previous version I like isn't 'broken' and is still playable, I need more justification of a new version other than the company reaching market saturation (based on whatever they have reached and decided to give up) and so now needing a new version.
If both companies disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't change much. There are so many interesting new games and OSR variants out there that I have few worries about RPGs disappearing as a result. Some of the content IP for D&D Id miss, but I can't say that Golorion or Pathfinder for that matter has much that was original to begin with. But then, I have a ton of the D&D stuff already - and how many versions of mostly similar material (like re-released modules) do you really need if you already have one or two?
Quote from: trechriron;1057532That is largely the issue. Why do we need a company to run games at your FLGS? OSR games are gems. More people should just bring them to their FLGS and run them. Get the owners to stock them. The hobby at this juncture of easy desktop publishing and digital distribution systems and quality POD doesn't need big corporate D&D any longer.
Yes, it does. You can kiss goodnight to the hugely increased player base we got from D&D 5th (big parallel with 3e there) and the associated products that have spawned from it. That includes the oft-maligned series of actual play vids (the biggest being Critical Role, of course), which regardless of how you feel, has got even more people playing it than the books and marketing itself ever could by itself. The only other series that could ever claim to bring in people like that was World of Darkness in the 90s.
The rest of the hobby doesn't make shit and doesn't bring in shit. This has been true since the 90s -- even into the 80s -- and it's even truer today after the catastrophic fallout from the 00s. Hasbro doesn't make any real money of the brand -- and just think, if they don't, the rest of the hobby sure as shit don't.
Now this is not directed at you trechriron and lynn but the gaming populace in general: never
ever be so arrogant as to think this hobby isn't built on and fundamentally supported by D&D. Digital publishing is just one more avenue of distribution and its highly convenient which is why its done so well - but without product (and well-known product) these sites and the rest of the hobby
dies.
You can play in your gamer dungeons all you want and ignore the rest of the hobby -- and while you do, it will collapse and we'll be the last set of generations to enjoy it. That is the stark truth.
I made my own D&D game last year that does everything I want, so as plenty of others have said not in the slightest (though truth be told their decisions haven't affected my gaming for quite a few years).
I moved away from PF many years ago.
5E? I still run and play that and like it for the most part.
I don't really care what WotC 's politics are, as long as it doesn't affect the product.
If it does, well, I'll still use what I already have until I get bored of it, but wouldn't buy any material I found objectionable.
I don't really follow politics relating to RPGs and that's deliberate. I just don't want to know really.
I guess it will effect me if the company politics bleed over and begins to reflect the majority of gamers in the real world (not just a few loud twits online). I don't play either system, but they are definitely major portals into the hobby.
If a product is useful to me I buy it. If it isn't I don't. A product is rarely useful to me lately, buying mostly map bundles.
Doesn't affect me. The design of D&D left me and my group(s) around. Their political activism in their content and in social media simply solidifies our non-support of them. Which of course is their choice to do so, as it is ours to spend our money on products we actually like without the supporting the agendas of things we do not believe in.
It's pretty easy.
Quote from: tenbones;1057560Doesn't affect me. The design of D&D left me and my group(s) around. Their political activism in their content and in social media simply solidifies our non-support of them. Which of course is their choice to do so, as it is ours to spend our money on products we actually like without the supporting the agendas of things we do not believe in.
It's pretty easy.
This. Anyway, Mike Mearls fired me from D&D so when the shit comes for him and he gets fired I'm going to enjoy it.
I think the people really unhappy about this are forgetting that Wizards of the Coasts doesn't want old guys anymore. They want twenty somethings that want to watch D&D on Twitch, buy t shirts, toys, and other things so they can show off their "geek life" on social media. WoTC thinks there is a lot more money to be made if D&D becomes a life style brand than there is in actually selling gaming books. WoTC wants D&D to be like Marvel. Yes the gaming books are there but it's such a small part of the pie compared to licensed products, tv shows, and movies. That's why WoTC is trying so hard to make the new D&D movie be something. And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to get a streaming show happening.
People that like to buy books, dice, and sit around a table playing a game is a lot smaller than folks that want to wear a shirt, buy a movie, or play a computer game.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1057473Actually, now you mention it, there's a whole host of reasons why OSR is better and nostaligia doesn't play such an important role
A corporate committee has never written anything as well as a decent author with a coherent vision. Production values and editing? Maybe, maybe not But writing, no.
When a corporate committee develops an agenda--
any agenda--besides doing the best they can within their already considerable limitations, then things can turn bad in a hurry. It's why I don't want gratuitous politics in a game even when I agree with the politics. One of the surest ways to kill any quality.
Quote from: Razor 007;1057376How will that impact your purchasing decisions, and your gaming choices?
(I ran out of character space in the thread title.)
Depends on what you mean by "Full Bore SJW Platforms". I'm fine with ignoring the sidebars that talk about "inclusiveness". I find them as relevant to my gaming as the sidebars and notices in Rifts and D&D about the supernatural during the satanic panic of the 80's.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537Now this is not directed at you trechriron and lynn but the gaming populace in general: never ever be so arrogant as to think this hobby isn't built on and fundamentally supported by D&D. Digital publishing is just one more avenue of distribution and its highly convenient which is why its done so well - but without product (and well-known product) these sites and the rest of the hobby dies. You can play in your gamer dungeons all you want and ignore the rest of the hobby -- and while you do, it will collapse and we'll be the last set of generations to enjoy it. That is the stark truth.
My point was specific to me as the original question was worded.
I agree that the fate of D&D does propel the business of the hobby, and if it were to disappear tomorrow, it would scale back the industry. That doesn't mean the hobby is dead or will die though. Diminished isn't dead.
RPGs have become both a medium for reuse of brand and content (licensed titles to 'pretend' to be your favorite type of character is a 'story'), and a generator of content (all those formula TSR novelizations, youtubed games, etc), and no longer exists solely in its own niche. I don't feel any obligation to the industry if the industry doesn't justify the benefit to me as a consumer.
Quote from: trechriron;1057532That is largely the issue. Why do we need a company to run games at your FLGS? OSR games are gems. More people should just bring them to their FLGS and run them. Get the owners to stock them. The hobby at this juncture of easy desktop publishing and digital distribution systems and quality POD doesn't need big corporate D&D any longer.
Incentive and organization. Which few outside larger companies tend to be able to maintain without collapsing at some point. OSR games and pretty much any discontinued game tend to lack any sort of RPGA-like organization and little incentive other than personal one. To really get out there you need more. Especially organization which oft provides the incentive.
This where Dragon Storm for example trounced its competition. They had an organization nearly from the start and that allowed players to participate far and wide at conventions and at home.I cant think of hardly any other indie RPG at the time and few larger ones that did. TORG comes to mind as one of the others that employed one.
And this is in part how Paizo was able to sweep up the player and customer base WOTC lost with 4e. They had some organization prior via their running Dragon and Polyhedron and other 3e product. And once Pathfinder took off they set Pathfinder Society.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537You can play in your gamer dungeons all you want and ignore the rest of the hobby -- and while you do, it will collapse and we'll be the last set of generations to enjoy it. That is the stark truth.
Sounds good to me. I know how to recruit players who never played D&D.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1057564Depends on what you mean by "Full Bore SJW Platforms". I'm fine with ignoring the sidebars that talk about "inclusiveness". I find them as relevant to my gaming as the sidebars and notices in Rifts and D&D about the supernatural during the satanic panic of the 80's.
Bingo.
Vampire 5ed devoted -five- freaking pages to the subject, but they're also trying to soothe the angry SJW mobs they courted as consumers. But in the end, it's just like the derivative essays on gaming the old White Wolf would have some schulb with a BA in Lit write (you know, the ones pontificating about Joseph Campbell and Star Wars. They were in every fifth book): nobody gives a shit the moment they finish reading them. It's just posturing and virtue signaling, and you can go back to pretending to be murder hobos gaining power by looting the corpses of low income orcs with your friends.
Quote from: san dee jota;1057602Bingo.
I think you nailed it. I mean "Book of Mirrors" is a snorefest and that is 20 years old. Boring is boring and the whole argument is boring.
Let's get on with the entertaining business of rpgs.
Nada for me...
I don't play any WotC stuff or Pathfinder. I'm only into the OSR side of things.
Word. Only talent, not tokenism, gets my money.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537Yes, it does. You can kiss goodnight to the hugely increased player base we got from D&D 5th (big parallel with 3e there) and the associated products that have spawned from it. That includes the oft-maligned series of actual play vids (the biggest being Critical Role, of course), which regardless of how you feel, has got even more people playing it than the books and marketing itself ever could by itself. The only other series that could ever claim to bring in people like that was World of Darkness in the 90s.
The rest of the hobby doesn't make shit and doesn't bring in shit. This has been true since the 90s -- even into the 80s -- and it's even truer today after the catastrophic fallout from the 00s. Hasbro doesn't make any real money of the brand -- and just think, if they don't, the rest of the hobby sure as shit don't.
Now this is not directed at you trechriron and lynn but the gaming populace in general: never ever be so arrogant as to think this hobby isn't built on and fundamentally supported by D&D. Digital publishing is just one more avenue of distribution and its highly convenient which is why its done so well - but without product (and well-known product) these sites and the rest of the hobby dies.
You can play in your gamer dungeons all you want and ignore the rest of the hobby -- and while you do, it will collapse and we'll be the last set of generations to enjoy it. That is the stark truth.
Who cares?
RPGs are a cool and fun hobby, but it doesn't make money and "the market leader" makes a very mediocre rendition of RPGs. Small stuff by people whose main job isn't RPGs tend to be better anyways.
This hobby is fan driven not corporate driven. WotC could disappear and RPGs won't die out.
It's not unique in that regard.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537Yes, it does. You can kiss goodnight to the hugely increased player base we got from D&D 5th (big parallel with 3e there) and the associated products that have spawned from it. That includes the oft-maligned series of actual play vids (the biggest being Critical Role, of course), which regardless of how you feel, has got even more people playing it than the books and marketing itself ever could by itself. The only other series that could ever claim to bring in people like that was World of Darkness in the 90s.
And to this I say - I'm okay with that. *I* have lost players, good players, because of the current politically-correct slant in D&D where I've picked up a special snowflake player that was SJW/SJW-leaning get triggered at my table. (Literally calling another player a racist because he was playing a prejudiced-elf). Players that *can't* seem to understand the basic point of roleplaying as a game, vs. some form of political expression of their identity.
I don't need another minefield of personality-disorders and delusional thinking to wade through to find new players. More asshats makes it harder.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537The rest of the hobby doesn't make shit and doesn't bring in shit. This has been true since the 90s -- even into the 80s -- and it's even truer today after the catastrophic fallout from the 00s. Hasbro doesn't make any real money of the brand -- and just think, if they don't, the rest of the hobby sure as shit don't.
I've paid for quite a few luxuries for myself doing game design. Will it ever replace my lucrative dayjob? Nope. But then I've never really tried to either. Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you here. Most of the systems that exist now will retain their base outside of D&D if it, the brand, sank. Would the pie shrink? sure, and it would probably impact other systems in the long-term, but I'd wager a lot of non-D&D systems that are popular have very sustainable, albeit much smaller, populaces. I'm not convinced the Internet wouldn't serve as a catalyst that will continue to bring in new players to the hobby if D&D died. I'll grant you though that it would be diminished. But I don't think it's the end of the hobby by any stretch.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537Now this is not directed at you trechriron and lynn but the gaming populace in general: never ever be so arrogant as to think this hobby isn't built on and fundamentally supported by D&D. Digital publishing is just one more avenue of distribution and its highly convenient which is why its done so well - but without product (and well-known product) these sites and the rest of the hobby dies.
Exactly. D&D is merely a catalyst to get people into gaming. But that cat is out of the bag. The internet will sustain the RPG cottage industry at lower levels forever.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537You can play in your gamer dungeons all you want and ignore the rest of the hobby -- and while you do, it will collapse and we'll be the last set of generations to enjoy it. That is the stark truth.
Without D&D? Hardly. Tell that to the mass of gamers that don't play D&D at all. The Internet will continue to connect people, and they will discover roleplaying with/without D&D there. Would the loss of D&D impact that transfusion of new players? I don't think so for two good reasons:
1) D&D as a brand will never die. It might get dropped by Hasbro, but someone would rise up to gobble it up.
2) We've hit a saturation point in gaming where there are always crazy people that are obsessed with running and playing these games. It might lose cache created by the current "nerd-chic" that grants Geek-Bonafides for playing - but imo those people aren't Real Scottish Gamers as we understand it anyhow. Those people aren't the long-term players that really dig deep into this hobby. Those people are *us* and they're not going away. If D&D dropped out... the "fad" portion of the fanbase would diminish, it would hold onto the people that got their meathooks into it - and that's no different than any other popular form of entertainment.
It could be we've hit the TTRPG-nadir... and it would/will settle back down. But consider this... imagine if D&D were the game owned by a company that made it everything we wanted it to be? Imagine how much *better* the community would be.
Quote from: tenbones;1057613And to this I say - I'm okay with that. *I* have lost players, good players, because of the current politically-correct slant in D&D where I've picked up a special snowflake player that was SJW/SJW-leaning get triggered at my table. (Literally calling another player a racist because he was playing a prejudiced-elf). Players that can seem to understand the basic point of roleplaying as a game, vs. some form of political expression of their identity.
I dunno'. I think it's a case-by-case matter. Player A likes pretending to be racist. Player B likes pretending to be opposite gender. Player C likes pretending to be a black guy. In some cases I'm sure it's just the appeal of being a character who's different, in other cases it's some sort of personal fantasy to -be- that character. Likewise, I've seen players take offense at each of these differences, I -think- because they really can't properly separate the other person's character from the player.
Yes, it's a crazy kind of crazy.
Quote from: tenbones;1057613The internet will sustain the RPG cottage industry at lower levels forever.
Exactly. And with PDF piracy, people will always be spreading stuff after the PDF renter stores have closed down.
Quote from: tenbones;1057613It could be we've hit the TTRPG-nadir... and it would/will settle back down. But consider this... imagine if D&D were the game owned by a company that made it everything we wanted it to be? Imagine how much *better* the community would be.
Now we just have to agree on what "we" want. :)
Quote from: tenbones;1057613*I* have lost players, good players, because of the current politically-correct slant in D&D where I've picked up a special snowflake player that was SJW/SJW-leaning get triggered at my table. (Literally calling another player a racist because he was playing a prejudiced-elf). Players that can seem to understand the basic point of roleplaying as a game, vs. some form of political expression of their identity.
This is the heart of the matter really. Because if you truly believe RPGs reflect or influence political attitudes to this extent, then you'll see any negative representation as a genuine threat, and a willful attack once you inform the player of the 'problem'. People like this don't see the difference between representing something and encouraging something, which means anything falling under their rubric must ultimately be modified until it reflects their values, and anyone playing it 'wrong' must be expelled from the community.
This is why they're so eager to control communications channels and implement codes of conduct.
But I digress.
Quote from: tenbones;10576131) D&D as a brand will never die. It might get dropped by Hasbro, but someone would rise up to gobble it up.
For proof of this, see D&D 4E and the meteoric rise of Pathfinder.
Quote from: jeff37923;1057637For proof of this, see D&D 4E and the meteoric rise of Pathfinder.
Agreed. See also D&D 5e, and the gradual-until-sudden collapse of Paizo.
The current Nerd-Chic is doomed, like any fad. Our hobby will shrink back down, but won't vanish. People will move from Nerd-Chic to some other /Chic subculture and leave gaming behind to those who love what the hobby offers. And that's okay.
As I've mentioned numerous times, the BEST gaming conventions I've attended are under 500 people. Much like Sparta, you only need 300 to have a rocking weekend that keeps the event in the hands of hobbyists instead of the event becoming a grinding 2nd job.
AKA, we don't need the WotCs or GenCons. We can have an awesome hobby with only people doing what they love just for the fun of it and maybe some beer money.
Quote from: san dee jota;1057622Now we just have to agree on what "we" want. :)
Magic ponies, infinite wishes and lasagna!
The only 5e products I have any interest in beyond the core are supplements like Xanathar's or Volo's. I did get Curse of Strahd and I'm loving it, but none of the other adventures interested me before (other than maybe Tales from the Yawning Portal, since it's a bunch of converted classics) and they especially don't now. Volo's, Mordenkainen's, and TftYP are still on my list to pick up but after that I'm probably going to call it there.
I never bought anything from Paizo, nor do I intend to. Never really liked 3.X, too fiddly. The proliferation of feats and special classes encourages that "can't do it if you don't have rules for it" mindset way too much.
Quote from: GodotIsWaiting4U;1057661The only 5e products I have any interest in beyond the core are supplements like Xanathar's or Volo's. I did get Curse of Strahd and I'm loving it, but none of the other adventures interested me before (other than maybe Tales from the Yawning Portal, since it's a bunch of converted classics) and they especially don't now. Volo's, Mordenkainen's, and TftYP are still on my list to pick up but after that I'm probably going to call it there.
So you didn't like Sword Coast? (because I think you may have listed every other 5e D&D book)
Quote from: GodotIsWaiting4U;1057661none of the other adventures interested me before (other than maybe Tales from the Yawning Portal, since it's a bunch of converted classics
If you have the originals, don't bother. The 'conversion' is barely there at all.
I only game with friends so it probably wouldn't effect me at all. Since I enjoy the 5e ruleset I'd probably still buy their products.