And just use the main rules, none of the expansions- what would be the better choice- 3rd edition or 4th edition? Amazon has the 3rd ed basic book for cheap. Not looking to really start a GURPS game or stay current with it, just to read it and noodle around with the game.
Quote from: RunningLaser;807957And just use the main rules, none of the expansions- what would be the better choice- 3rd edition or 4th edition? Amazon has the 3rd ed basic book for cheap. Not looking to really start a GURPS game or stay current with it, just to read it and noodle around with the game.
Download GURPS Lite for each version and compare.
Before buying anything have you looked at GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/) ?
It can save you a few bucks, what the books offer is little more than extra detail, all you need to know about the system is in those 32 pages.
But if it's really to "read it and noodle around with the game" I'd say you can go with 3rd edition : it's all in one book and it's dirt cheap now. I still have my 20+ years old 3rd edition book and read it from time to time.
They're both pretty good so whichever one fits your budget better will work fine, especially if you're just reading them. 4th's better than 3rd to me, but not by leaps and bounds, I'd play in a 3rd edition game with no hesitation.
I have third. Unfortunately at this point likely to never run it. Mainly due to an increasing dislike of SJG.
Overall its a good book. The ordering of things takes some getting used to though. Past that. Its a servicible workhorse. I did though go through mine and pencil in the errata notes.
Mine came with a sort of quickstart basic booklet. I believe SJG did and may still have it on their site as a free PDF if you want to have a glance before leaping in.
Quote from: RunningLaser;807957And just use the main rules, none of the expansions- what would be the better choice- 3rd edition or 4th edition? Amazon has the 3rd ed basic book for cheap. Not looking to really start a GURPS game or stay current with it, just to read it and noodle around with the game.
4th edition. It more of a toolkit. Use this fan created PDF as a guide to the possibilities.
http://gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf
3rd edition takes the idea of GURPS (Skills, Advantage, Disadvantages, etc) and implements for each genre. There no overall "system" that ties say Magic, Psionic, and Super Powers together in the core books.
4th edition retains some of the 3rd edition subystem notably Magic. But it explicting was designed to be more like Hero System in that the core book can be used 'as is' to construct abilities to support any genre. Instead the 3rd edition Core book is just that, the core rules that are used by all the different genres. For everything else you need to goto the genre book.
What distinguishes 4e core books from their 3rd edition counterparts is there lack of introducing new rules. Instead they focus on aides (like star system generation), implementation (like templates), or as a reference (something GURPS always excelled at).
My opinion that compared to Hero System, GURPS 4th edition is more flexible and slightly less math heavy. The advantage of Hero System it is more clear cut what you are paying points for.
Anyway with the GURPS Advantage PDF a person get quickly up to speed in using the core book to create anything they want.
Given a free hand, I would go with 4e, pretty much for the reasons already given. 4e is slightly more coherent than 3e and it contains all the cool rules spread through different supplements in 3e.
If you were to go with 3e you would really want the two Compendiums as well, which makes the total page count bigger than the two 4e books and possibly more expensive to boot. And Martial Arts, too, if you wanted more detailed combat options.
With 4e, 99.9% of the rules are in the two core books and you really could play pretty much any genre game with it. The supplemental books are more like recipe books, explaining how to mix up different parts of the core rules to produce the genre you are looking for. But if you 'get' the GURPS philosophy and have the time / enjoy it you can work all this out for yourself.
The 3rd edition does great "gritty pulp fantasy" with zero prep work. No other books needed besides the Basic Set. If you're more into the toolkit aspect of GURPS, 4th is probably a better choice as it is much more consistent; although anymore if I was going that way I'd probably just use HERO 6th.
Also, I've seen softcover 3rd editions for $1 at HPB...it's damn cheap.
I would more recommend 4th to a novice. It's slightly better laid out, and has a few other benefits to a newcomer:
* Ditching half-points for skills, whole numbers being slightly less confusing;
* Languages no longer as skills;
* Despite that the writers' guidelines for SJG always said not to invent new stuff and to shoehorn your needs into extant skills/advantages/disads as much as possible, a lot of people ignored that in BSIII. Hence silly-ass skill creep resulting in the likes of Uttering of Base Coin and Abacus. With just a couple of boneheaded exceptions (the knot-tying skill, for one), the design premise around 4th is much more that subordinate skills are presumed to be part of primary skills: that, for instance, if you're in the right tech level and culture and you have either Merchant or Mathematics skills, you'll know how to use an abacus.
Like the others, though, I strongly recommend starting with GURPS Lite. It's free, and you can decide from there the level of complexity you want.
Quote from: Omega;807963Mainly due to an increasing dislike of SJG.
Any particular reason?
Thanks for the input. Downloading 4th lite and will go over it as time permits.
Quote from: RunningLaser;808136Thanks for the input. Downloading 4th lite and will go over it as time permits.
If you want a game to play, go 3rd. If you want a game to make yourself, go 4th.
Quote from: RunningLaser;808136Thanks for the input. Downloading 4th lite and will go over it as time permits.
Unfortunately the 4e GURPS Lite is widely recognised as being inferior to the 3e version, so please don't base your assessment on just that.
Quote from: dbm;808145Unfortunately the 4e GURPS Lite is widely recognised as being inferior to the 3e version, so please don't base your assessment on just that.
I saw this stated in a different thread by a different poster. How so?
It contains much less of the system. You could actually play a real-world (ie no powers or magic) medieval or classic game using just 3e light but you would struggle to play any kind of game just using 4e light.
Quote from: Manic Modron;808056Any particular reason?
Old and new irks with their antics. Irrelevant to the OPs question. Friend of mine has about everything GURPs and a glance through pretty much jibes with others comments here. 4e is alot more newb friendly as it were and the scope does feel like it has more building options. Or at least getting from A to B via a different approach.
Quote from: Omega;808160Old and new irks with their antics. Irrelevant to the OPs question. Friend of mine has about everything GURPs and a glance through pretty much jibes with others comments here. 4e is alot more newb friendly as it were and the scope does feel like it has more building options. Or at least getting from A to B via a different approach.
I think 4e is more flexible and comprehensive, but I think working from only the core rules (as the OP specified) that 3e quickstart and 3e are more newbie-friendly.
3e is shorter, with the core rules in a single book, and doesn't have a lot of more complex options like enhancements, limitations, and maneuvers.
Quote from: RunningLaser;807957If a guy was going to get into GURPS
Time for an intervention. Friends don't let friends do this with themselves.
;)
Quote from: estar;8079724th edition. It more of a toolkit. Use this fan created PDF as a guide to the possibilities.
http://gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf
3rd edition takes the idea of GURPS (Skills, Advantage, Disadvantages, etc) and implements for each genre. There no overall "system" that ties say Magic, Psionic, and Super Powers together in the core books.
4th edition retains some of the 3rd edition subystem notably Magic. But it explicting was designed to be more like Hero System in that the core book can be used 'as is' to construct abilities to support any genre. Instead the 3rd edition Core book is just that, the core rules that are used by all the different genres. For everything else you need to goto the genre book.
What distinguishes 4e core books from their 3rd edition counterparts is there lack of introducing new rules. Instead they focus on aides (like star system generation), implementation (like templates), or as a reference (something GURPS always excelled at).
My opinion that compared to Hero System, GURPS 4th edition is more flexible and slightly less math heavy. The advantage of Hero System it is more clear cut what you are paying points for.
Anyway with the GURPS Advantage PDF a person get quickly up to speed in using the core book to create anything they want.
re: comparison of GURPS & HERO here is a good thread link discussing both with great input from the current GURPS line developer in post #12:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=123214
This thread has made me want to play GURPS again...
...off to my crate of books!
So there's this guy, right. And let's say - hypothetically, of course - that he was thinking about getting into...GURPS. What's that? Yeah, no, he's a friend. And anyway...if he WERE really serious about it, just how might he go about it...? Not that I - or he, or anyone would actually do it, I'm just saying...wait, why are you looking at me like that? Come on man, you know me! We're cool, right?
GURPS 3rd lite.
Let's do a boardgame analogy because I think the GURPS partisans are doing you a bit of a disservice.
GURPS 3rd is a successful boardgame that works. Then there are a hundred expansions that let you expand the core game. Use the one you want.
GURPS 4th is take the core boardgame and all the expansions, cut them up into jigsaw pieces, pour them into a huge bag, and then say "You can make whatever boardgame you want!" It's useful only to the people that are already GURPS experts. I haven't seen anyone come in to GURPS 4th cold and actually be able to run the game. Everything in two books is a feature to the decades-old veteran, it's a morass to the newbie.
Quote from: The_Shadow;808426So there's this guy, right. And let's say - hypothetically, of course - that he was thinking about getting into...GURPS. What's that? Yeah, no, he's a friend. And anyway...if he WERE really serious about it, just how might he go about it...? Not that I - or he, or anyone would actually do it, I'm just saying...wait, why are you looking at me like that? Come on man, you know me! We're cool, right?
:) That made me laugh, and I really needed that today. Thank you.
Quote from: CRKrueger;808428GURPS 3rd lite.
Let's do a boardgame analogy because I think the GURPS partisans are doing you a bit of a disservice.
GURPS 3rd is a successful boardgame that works. Then there are a hundred expansions that let you expand the core game. Use the one you want.
GURPS 4th is take the core boardgame and all the expansions, cut them up into jigsaw pieces, pour them into a huge bag, and then say "You can make whatever boardgame you want!" It's useful only to the people that are already GURPS experts. I haven't seen anyone come in to GURPS 4th cold and actually be able to run the game. Everything in two books is a feature to the decades-old veteran, it's a morass to the newbie.
I am a big GURPS fan and I have to agree with this. Learn 3rd Ed Lite, then get the 3rd Ed. core book and start learning a bit more. IF you like the 3E core game and are comfortable with it, then get the 4E stuff.
4E has a TON of useful stuff but you pretty much have to assemble your own game out of all the available parts. Once you do all that work, the game rules work fairly nicely and the complexity level of the game you built entirely depends on what parts you decided to include.
Quote from: The_Shadow;808426So there's this guy, right. And let's say - hypothetically, of course - that he was thinking about getting into...GURPS. What's that? Yeah, no, he's a friend. And anyway...if he WERE really serious about it, just how might he go about it...? Not that I - or he, or anyone would actually do it, I'm just saying...wait, why are you looking at me like that? Come on man, you know me! We're cool, right?
It depends on the genre.
If you are looking at fantasy then I recommend that you get
1) The GURPS core rules
2) GURPS Magic
3) GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 1 and 2.
4th edition is better organized and far easier to get into than 3rd edition. The rules been streamlined and more importantly are better presented. Along with the fact there are genre lines like a Dungeon Fantasy, Action, and Monster Hunter that offer a more of a ready out of the box experience than anything that 3rd edition had.
3rd edition is a good game. 4th edition is a better game, though I will concede it may be harder to get into.
The 3rd edition book is probably a more friendly book to read, whilst the 4th ed book is definitely more of a technical manual. But 4th implements a number of good improvements (changing the pricing of stats, changing the relationship of HP to the prime stats, making powers more consistent and systematic) and adds in a bunch of content from the 3e splats (most notably talents and manoeuvres), all of which improve the game in play.
I guess it's the OP's call.
If you want an easier entry into 4e then there are 'worked examples' available in the form of specific genre series. Currently there are three main ones:
- Action covers action movie type stuff
- Monster Hunters covers highly skilled normals (or people with minor powers) going after supernatural threats like werewolves and vampires
- Dungeon Fantasy builds a DnD-ish experience with hyper-capable specialists kicking in doors, killing things and taking their stuff!
Lots of other advice and inspiration is available via Pyramid magazine (PDF from e23), with many genre issues having being released covering most things you could want to try.
But since the OP is wanting a minimal investment these things aren't really germane to the question.
Edit: Semi-ninja'ed ;-)
Quote from: estar;8084354th edition is better organized
Ok
Quote from: estar;808435and far easier to get into than 3rd edition.
...for you! a GURPS master - for a beginner, not a chance in Holy Hell.
Quote from: CRKrueger;808467Ok
...for you! a GURPS master - for a beginner, not a chance in Holy Hell.
The only edition of GURPS that worked for a beginner was the 2nd Edition Boxed set. GURPS 3rd edition has a similar issues to GURPS 4th editions. The main difference is that with 4th edition you can, with work, run any genre with the core books, while 3rd edition was just the core rules common to all genres supported by GURPS.
The path today for an absolute novice is to familiarize themselves with GURPS 4e lite first. Run the Caravan to Ein Arris adventure. Then get the Core Books, and the genre books that interest them.
It is ideal? No, it hasn't been ideal since the advent of 3rd edition and demise of the 2nd edition boxed set. At least with 4th edition there are close to ready to run genres in the form of Dungeon Fantasy, Action, and Monster Hunters.
And this is not theorywank either. Given the fact I live in a rural area I am forced to grow the base anytime I want to play or referee GURPS. I probably introduced and taught over four dozen people to GURPS since the late 80s.
The easiest version of GURPS to get into was 2nd edition. While it had generic support it was obviously oriented to fantasy roleplaying. You picked up Magic and you were largely good to go. Campaigns tended to use human opponents as GURPS suffered then and continues to suffer from a lack of a decent magic item.
With 3rd edition, you handed a player a copy of GURPS 3e Lite. It was obviously a cut down system but it effectively taught the system. You could still play GURPS Core + Magic but it was little more expensive. Campaigns still were oriented to human opponents but the shear number of supplement meant that with some outlay of cash you can kit bash what you wanted.
With GURPS 4e, GURPS Lite still teaches you the system but the core is more expensive with two rule books. But now the entire power range of GURPS is more easily understandable and usable. You could get the genre books but now you have (mostly PDF only) ready to run genres like Dungeon Fantasy, Action, and Monster Hunters. The presence of these means that you may need one more book (like GURPS Magic) and can just go with the supplements in then line. Often just the first one or two is enough.
For Fantasy these are Core Book I & II, Magic, Dungeon Fantasy I, and II.
Could 4e be better sure. But that what we got. The only virtue 3e has is that once you assemble nearly all the book then you have a impressive range of ready to run material. But that is a big investment to make.
Thanks for everyone's input. I ended up using a gift card and going with 4th edition.
Quote from: RunningLaser;808561Thanks for everyone's input. I ended up using a gift card and going with 4th edition.
Good choice, 4e is the better game imo - slightly more difficult to get Into, but better. :)