As it says really.

Other than pure branding, what makes 4e closer to maintaining some kind of DnD lineage than say Palladium Fantasy?  Or Runequest?  Or Savage Worlds with a fantasy pack added on?

I often hear people asking if you can still play Tomb of Horrors or somesuch with a new edition, but I think that's a silly test, you can play those old modules with Palladium Fantasy after all or many other games.  Nobody claims they are DnD.

So, other than pure branding, what makes one game DnD and another not?  For me, I think 3e was questionable and I think 4e has less in common with earlier iterations of the game than Rolemaster or Palladium Fantasy, and in that case I'd argue calling it DnD is a matter of pure branding, nothing more.

From a certain point of view, all classic RPGs are D&D.  It's just the setting and some of the dice mechanics that's changed.

Quote from: StuartFrom a certain point of view, all classic RPGs are D&D.  It's just the setting and some of the dice mechanics that's changed.

Not a view I wholly disagree with actually, but I think it ultimately goes too far.

My take on 4e presently is flatly that it's not anything I recognise as DnD.  The same way Pundit doesn't recognise BSG as related to the original BSG.

Pundy's right, I think the new BSG is better and he thinks the original was, but he's right that the new one has nothing to do with the old one.  The use of the name is merely branding, marketing.

4e is the same, this is a game with less in common with Basic/Expert/RC/ADnD than a myriad other games do.  It's nothing like DnD as it historically was, rather it's resused some of the names like new BSG did and kept the title for brand management and publicity purposes.

It's a reimagining of DnD, the same way the new BSG was a reimagining of the original.  Whether that makes it a good or bad game remains to be seen, I liked the new BSG, but just because a corporation calls a product by an established name doesn't mean that product has much to do with products previously released under that name.

Pure branding, baby.

I absolutely agree with you and think WotC should have been upfront that it was an re-imagining (just like BSG) rather than try and convince people it was the same game that it always was.

I mean, honestly, what were they thinking? :confused:

Quote from: StuartI mean, honestly, what were they thinking? :confused:

People sitting around a table rolling dice and talking about their PCs clammering through a subterranian tunnel, cutting the heads off of Trolls.

Quote from: blakkiePeople sitting around a table rolling dice and talking about their PCs clammering through a subterranian tunnel, cutting the heads off of Trolls.

...whilst playing fighters, wizards and clerics who have armour class, hit points, roll d20 to hit, use different damage dice according to their weapon types and gain xp for their exploits.

If you focus solely on the differences then 4E is patently not D&D. If you focus on the similarities then it very much is.

Well, Palladium in fact is D&D. Or it was. It was actually ( I think) Kevin Siembieda's, Eric Wujcik, and Alex Marciniszyn's AD&D1E campaign house rules. Sufficiently differnt from AD&D to be sold as a seperate game (and that was a bold move in 1983, I'm sure). It had a working skill system and multigenre stuff that predated many other systems.

I still say Palladium Fantasy is a better game than AD&D2E, or even Basic/Expert. I love the nonhuman races especially.  

There's absolutely no doubt that Palladium Fantasy is closer to AD&D1E than D&D 4e itself is.

Someone might call bullshit on this, but that's the way I heard it several years ago. The Palladium name came from one of the key dungeons of the area (kinda like Blackmoor),and instead of the circle of 8 (as in Greyhawk) the core group was called the Defilers.

They should have hired AM for the PR.

Honesty goes a long way.

Instead they sent hypocrits and liars.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, Palladium in fact is D&D. Or it was. It was actually ( I think) Kevin Siembieda's, Eric Wujcik, and Alex Marciniszyn's AD&D1E campaign house rules. Sufficiently differnt from AD&D to be sold as a seperate game (and that was a bold move in 1983, I'm sure). It had a working skill system and multigenre stuff that predated many other systems.

I still say Palladium Fantasy is a better game than AD&D2E, or even Basic/Expert. I love the nonhuman races especially.  

There's absolutely no doubt that Palladium Fantasy is closer to AD&D1E than D&D 4e itself is.

Someone might call bullshit on this, but that's the way I heard it several years ago. The Palladium name came from one of the key dungeons of the area (kinda like Blackmoor),and instead of the circle of 8 (as in Greyhawk) the core group was called the Defilers.

Erick wasn't part of that group (though notorious embezzler Steve Sheiring was).  But otherwise, yeah that's basically the gist of it.

Quote from: BalbinusIf 4e is still DnD, why is Palladium Fantasy not also DnD?

Abyssal Maw explained why Palladium Fantasy is DnD (but obviously can't bear the label).  But 4e gets the label because of the legitimate line and history and that's more than just "branding". To a lot of people 3e is the very definition of D&D because that's all they've ever played, to others they have played 3e/3.5e so long that they don't clearly recall prior (or are like me and just prefer it). That's the real reason why Palladium Fantasy is less "D&D" than 4e. :shrug:

You've got Branding

And you've got Personal Perception of What Constitutes D&D.

You can argue a middle ground, but its sort of hard to establish it in any objective sense.

Abyssal Maw is right; Palladium's house system, especially the fantasy game's first edition, is a formalized version of Kevin's house rules for AD&D1.

I think an analogy will clear things up:
D&D is like a huge rampaging drunken elephant, covered in honey and trapped in a stadium with a billion billion fire ants, four hundred rabid/horny ferrets and a fat weeping clown who is playing Stairway to Heaven on a whoopie cushion.

That should sort it all out for you.
You're welcome.

Learn something new every day. I always suspected that Palladium was their house-ruled AD&D 1e games, but I was told (long ago) that my hunch was wrong and it was just ripped off to compete with AD&D. Nice to know I was right.

Palladium is more AD&D than 4e is, but 4e is still D&D (though I'm loathe to admit that) since WotC branded the new fantasy system as such: they got the patent, so what they call D&D*is* D&D. Barring personal perception, that is.

-=Grim=-