How much pagecount do you want an RPG to have? Is there a lower limit? An upper limit?

No real lower limit beyond the minimum it takes you to express your rule set.

Maximum would be whatever point your page count makes your chosen format difficult to read (i.e. the book won't stay open because it won't lay flat enough). If that's higher than your minimum pages to express the rules, then you start looking at options for splitting it into two or more books.

The latter is why, after a format change to 6x9 to reduce printing costs (which ended up having other benefits that I now appreciate like working much better with e-readers), I ended up having to split what was going to be one core book into a Player's Guide (done but for editing and play testing feedback corrections) and a GM's Guide (about a third of the way done at the moment, but with lots of notes for the remaining bits) so the books wouldn't be too ungainly. Another plus is that the cost of entry for a new Player should be down around $25-30 instead of the usual $50-60 tome (that would only be the point of entry for a new GM who needs both books for all the rules).

The Player's Guide currently clocks in at 278 pages of text and about 120,000 words with an expected 50-ish pages worth of illustrations putting it at about 325 pages; right around the thickness of the 4E Essentials Softcovers and about the same size overall. The GM's Guide is expected to be similar (Monsters/Opponents alone will probably be a good half the book).

The other long-term advantage I'm seeing to this option is that, I'll only need about 75,000 words plus art to have content enough for my planned supplements (World Gazettes at this point) in the same format (75k word should be around 250 pages with art) which means I can produce new content a bit more often than I would have expected to otherwise.

And just so you know, while the Player's Guide only includes Allocation/Selection for character creation, the GM's Guide does have optional rules for both Point-Buy and Random Rolls for ability scores (including the equivalent of 3d6 in order) and also has had random tables for rolling your species, background and archetype (skilled or spellcasting; your class being a specific expression of how you fight/cast spells is left for the player to decide) from the start. Just because I prefer and encourage one method, doesn't mean that people who like other methods need to be left out in the cold.

Ideal size for a complete game: 128 p. letter format

Doing as many reviews as I've done, I THINK I've seen all of the common formats and many uncommon ones.

Personally, I don't think I've found one that perfect. It could be inertia, but I really like 128ish page hardcovers in Letter size. I use bookmarks for finding relevant or oft looked up rules, and I generally print the most used tables from the pdf (I really, really prefer to have a physical AND a digital version of the rules)...or use a GM screen.

I don't use the book itself often at the table, except to look up weirder stuff or if the game is really new to me.

From 64 to 128 p letter format, or 1-3 booklets with similar total word count. If you can't articulate the core of a game in that space you need to pull your head out of your ass.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1032277From 64 to 128 p letter format, or 1-3 booklets with similar total word count. If you can't articulate the core of a game in that space you need to pull your head out of your ass.

Agree with this for the core of the game.  Then how much else is done--whether in those same core books or in supplements, depends upon the meat provided. I'd be perfectly willing for a dense 128 page rulebook to bloom up to the 256 range (or two books) because of copious examples and good setting material, for example.

As previously stated, the minimum would be the number of pages it takes to include the core rules, character creation, plus any other key details, setting, key NPCs, or monsters as needed, etc. The upper limit follows this same concept. Is there a point where there are so many extra bits and bobs that the book becomes Byzantine and hard to read?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1032277From 64 to 128 p letter format, or 1-3 booklets with similar total word count.

Yeah, I look at most of my favorite rulebooks and brevity is a lot better than long-windedness. The old TSR rulebooks of OD&D and Boot Hill were pretty well done, as were Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World. The classic Traveller black books fit that model as well. What I like best in general is a RPG book that gives me key information without telling me all of the "flavor text" stuff. (In 5E, for example, they tell me what my spell looks like. I don't care. I have an imagination, and I can decide what my spell looks like.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1032234How much pagecount do you want an RPG to have? Is there a lower limit? An upper limit?

About the size of Raiders of R'lyeh, which you did some consulting for.

Depends on how detailed the rules are.
Some rough examples:
Mentzer Basic rulebook, 64 pages, perfect for a 1-3 level basic introductory set.
AD&D-2nd ed, 150-250ish pages, good page count for a 3 book set. The monster books can be a bit bigger.
Pathfinder Core, 450some pages. Jesus wept. Hard to flip through, hard to find stuff, hard to carry around. Too big.

161 pages.

But that's mainly because I'm really hyped about Savage Worlds recently.

The 80's TSR booklets (Moldvay/Cook, Mentzer, Star Frontiers) are the gold standard.

Never overwhelm the reader. This is the main sin of most modern non-OSR game books.

I'd say 256 is about my ceiling.

96 to 164 seems to be my sweet spot.  Most of my favorites are in that range.

The more it's under 64, if it's a commercial product, the more I'm going to be questioning what it really offers that's worth paying for.  At 32 pages or less for a complete game, I'm probably going to be wondering what it offers that I couldn't come up with myself in about 10 minutes.  So, somewhere between 32 and 64 is the floor.

This all assumes a regular 8.5x11 book.  

I'm more comfortable reading an RPG in that size range.  Bigger and it doesn't feel like fun light reading anymore.  Smaller and I wonder why I'm not just writing my own homebrew.

That said, when I was younger, my friends and I had the "heft test."  When we were considering multiple RPG products we'd make our determination of what to buy via weight.  We'd go with whatever was heavier under the assumption there was more content.

If its more than 150 pages, I will probably skip it.

I must be very motivated to get a 300 pager. AKA, it says 40k on the cover, something else that's extremely high on my love it list.

These mega tomes? Fuck that noise. As much as I love Dark Heresy, that book is the extreme limit for me.

I gotta give props to the Forge / Storygames on this one. Most of their games are not bricks.

EDIT: I agree with Gabriel2 on the lower limit. A corebook less than 64 pages is questionable.

64-128 is the sweet spot. I have a couple of 32 page games which I love but they have either tiny print fonts or are extremely light.