Quote from: Tommy Brownell;417849Well, heroes can earn more by suffering setbacks...that part, at least, is already there.

A simple enough solution (though, minus bells and whistles) is to go ahead and give Villains determination and use the book method of handing them off to the PCs when the villain spends them.

Maybe a tiered system (instead of the standard "most powerful heroes get less Determination") where A-list villains get, say, 6 Determination, B-list get 4, C-List get 2 (or something, I dunno).

What I've done is to link DP not to a villain but to important groups of villains. So for in Marvel terms HYDRA or the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants have a pool of DP from Magneto at the top to the lowest henchman can use.

The number of DPs tiered much as you suggest and not mechnically derived from the stats. So the more important the group the more DP. However that DP pool does not refresh (or at least not within a story arc).

Of course that makes more sense in a campaign setting than in a one shot game.

In practice I almost always forget to use DPs when I GM, but then so far most fights have been pretty challenging anyway.

I haven't gotten a copy of ICONS as of yet. I have a *lot* of supers games as it is. A number of which I have yet to read and review. But the idea of random character generation just puts me off. I like to *build* my characters. Fiddle with all of the little details. Start with an initial concept and than see it through to the final product. Random doesn't really play a part in that for me.

Quote from: Tetsubo;418015I haven't gotten a copy of ICONS as of yet. I have a *lot* of supers games as it is. A number of which I have yet to read and review. But the idea of random character generation just puts me off. I like to *build* my characters. Fiddle with all of the little details. Start with an initial concept and than see it through to the final product. Random doesn't really play a part in that for me.

Point buy is supported (in fact, the ION Guard supplement requires it), but if nothing else about the game appeals to you, the point buy certainly isn't an reason to buy the game.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;418017Point buy is supported (in fact, the ION Guard supplement requires it), but if nothing else about the game appeals to you, the point buy certainly isn't an reason to buy the game.

Plus there aren't a lot of little details to fiddle with. Attributes, powers, aspects, pretty much done.

Yeah, ICONS isn't really a "buildy"sort of game. What you fiddle with is the Aspects, that's where you get to express your creativity.

It is unusual for a game to have both random abilites and freeform traits. That's what I mean by the game being a hybrid of the new and old.

Quote from: EBM;417654There is currently a more polite thread along these lines on the big purple cock that is RPG.Net but as I wouldn't post there if you paid me...but I was seduced by the moronic hype on the big purple...I mean the hype was ridiculous but that was down to the over excited idiots at RPG.Net circle jerking themselves into a frenzy, in large part before the game was even fucking out!

Begging the question, who is the bigger idiot, the idiot, or the idiot that gets seduced by the idiot...seriously, wailing about RPGnet carries much more weight when you don't obsessively follow the forums and "get seduced" by the opinions of the members there. I have many problems with RPGnet (mostly involving moderators and the hipster-duechebag miasma that is Tangency), but you're really just coming across like a child here.
(And bet $10 you started the same thread there that you referenced as being a "polite" version of this thread.)

Quote1. A Drive and Pilot Skill and no vehicles in the book!

Yup. The game seems very incomplete to me.

Quote2. The Artwork (subjective, I know).

Subjective my Aunt Petunia! The art in ICONS is TRASH. Absolute hack shit. And everyone who makes the excuse that it's a modern "style" is completely talking out their ass. Minimalism is a style. That post-Kirby minimalist style that's popular right now (Powers, Ben 10, Batman B&B, anything by Darwyn Cooke, etc) started with Bruce Timm's work on B:tAS, and there's one big difference between all the aforementioned examples and the artwork in Icons: they're all drawn by people with a basic understanding of structure, perspective, and composition. The art in Icons is just some untalented wankers doodles that try to ape a minimalist style in the hopes most people won't notice that it's just crap. everyone involved in the game should be ashamed.

Quote3. The Players roll everything.  Why exactly?

Supposedly makes it easier on the GM. Personally, I like rolling dice. But then, Icons tries to "fix" alot of things about FASERIP that I never thought were broken.

Quote4. No Index.  Pet hate.

Substantiated, with the caveat that this game is more of a "quickstart" than a fully-developed RPG.

Quote5. Under utilisation of FATE.  There don't appear to be many FATE rules in it!

Once more in bold for the ones who after how many months have not gotten it yet...ICONS is NOT a FATE game. It uses a few ideas from Fate, but that's it. I don't know why this ignorance meme got started, but seriously, really not a valid complaint at all.

Quote6. Omission of useful examples.  No weapon values, no vehicle stats.  Basic stuff for a game like this surely.  Strangely I can fight a T Rex "out of the box" but I've no idea what the stats for a getaway car are!!!

There are no stats for a getaway car. In Icons, hero gets into car, rolls his Drive, and if he rolls well enough...he gets away.

Quote7. Poorly organised.  Lot's of page flipping.  Excusable if you have a good index...

This is just the same complaint a second time.

QuoteHere's a list of what I do like.
1. Random Chargen.  Quick, fast and lot's of fun!

I still think "character modelling" was the under-valued chargen system from FASERIP that none of the children have taken advantage of yet.

Quote2. Random Adventure Creator.  Nifty.

If you say so.

Quote3. Determination and Challenges.  FATE Aspects done right.

Uh...no.

Quote4. The Team Creation rules.

Yup, some good ideas there. Like everything else in the book, completely undeveloped, but that seems to be what "Rules Lite" means to a lot of people these days.
 

Quote5. I like the way gadgets and magic are handled on p40.

Once again, just a riff on FASERIP's system, with less definition. Seriously Icons SCREAMS "Quick-start" to me rather than "Rules-Lite". It feels (and looks) like a marketing pitch for a game rather than a game itself.

Quote6. "The Octofather" great idea for a villain.

Well, I'm sure he was the first time someone did it (Erik Larsen), and the second time (Eric Powell)...it's worn a bit thin by now. But then, Icons "iconic" character is the blandest Superman etsy since the Golden Age, so I didn't expect much creativity. Liked the Cactus guy though.

QuoteAm I being fair?

Fair to who? Who gives a shit if you like a game or not? Decide that for yourself. Don't get seduced by internet geeks and then have an angst-tantrum about it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;418060Begging the question, who is the bigger idiot, the idiot, or the idiot that gets seduced by the idiot...seriously, wailing about RPGnet carries much more weight when you don't obsessively follow the forums and "get seduced" by the opinions of the members there. I have many problems with RPGnet (mostly involving moderators and the hipster-duechebag miasma that is Tangency), but you're really just coming across like a child here.
(And bet $10 you started the same thread there that you referenced as being a "polite" version of this thread.)


 

Yup. The game seems very incomplete to me.



Subjective my Aunt Petunia! The art in ICONS is TRASH. Absolute hack shit. And everyone who makes the excuse that it's a modern "style" is completely talking out their ass. Minimalism is a style. That post-Kirby minimalist style that's popular right now (Powers, Ben 10, Batman B&B, anything by Darwyn Cooke, etc) started with Bruce Timm's work on B:tAS, and there's one big difference between all the aforementioned examples and the artwork in Icons: they're all drawn by people with a basic understanding of structure, perspective, and composition. The art in Icons is just some untalented wankers doodles that try to ape a minimalist style in the hopes most people won't notice that it's just crap. everyone involved in the game should be ashamed.



Supposedly makes it easier on the GM. Personally, I like rolling dice. But then, Icons tries to "fix" alot of things about FASERIP that I never thought were broken.



Substantiated, with the caveat that this game is more of a "quickstart" than a fully-developed RPG.



Once more in bold for the ones who after how many months have not gotten it yet...ICONS is NOT a FATE game. It uses a few ideas from Fate, but that's it. I don't know why this ignorance meme got started, but seriously, really not a valid complaint at all.



There are no stats for a getaway car. In Icons, hero gets into car, rolls his Drive, and if he rolls well enough...he gets away.



This is just the same complaint a second time.



I still think "character modelling" was the under-valued chargen system from FASERIP that none of the children have taken advantage of yet.



If you say so.



Uh...no.



Yup, some good ideas there. Like everything else in the book, completely undeveloped, but that seems to be what "Rules Lite" means to a lot of people these days.
 


Once again, just a riff on FASERIP's system, with less definition. Seriously Icons SCREAMS "Quick-start" to me rather than "Rules-Lite". It feels (and looks) like a marketing pitch for a game rather than a game itself.



Well, I'm sure he was the first time someone did it (Erik Larsen), and the second time (Eric Powell)...it's worn a bit thin by now. But then, Icons "iconic" character is the blandest Superman etsy since the Golden Age, so I didn't expect much creativity. Liked the Cactus guy though.



Fair to who? Who gives a shit if you like a game or not? Decide that for yourself. Don't get seduced by internet geeks and then have an angst-tantrum about it.

Interesting first post fuckwit, joined here just to Troll did you?  Read my post again I don't post on RPG.net so of course I didn't start the thread there!  The post caught my eye with the title. Read the post there and it doesn't sound anything like me.

I don't excessively follow forums the post in question was near the top of the front page.  I certainly wouldn't join a forum to act like a cunt in my first post.

Art is subjective, of course it is.  I don't like it and you don't like it but some people do like it so that's makes it subjective.  Am I getting through?  Anybody in there?  Hello...  

This game got so much press and hype it's not surprising that a lot of people got interested in the game.  That makes me a curious, not a crime as far as I'm aware.

"There are no stats for a getaway car. In Icons, hero gets into car, rolls his Drive, and if he rolls well enough...he gets away".

WTF, why is the hero making a getaway?  Say the villains try make a getaway, and Doucheman (played by you) tries to stop the car, catch it, bore it to death, whatever.  What happens?  Where are the stats for the car?  

I'm interested in other people's opinions Troll, it's funny you lay into me for asking about other peoples experience with the game and at the same time you tell me your opinions about the game, are you retarded?  

Your a fucking cockstand and you owe me $10.

Quote from: EBM;418093Interesting first post fuckwit, joined here just to Troll did you?  Read my post again I don't post on RPG.net so of course I didn't start the thread there!  The post caught my eye with the title. Read the post there and it doesn't sound anything like me. I don't excessively follow forums the post in question was near the top of the front page.  I certainly wouldn't join a forum to act like a cunt in my first post.

I stand by what I said, and what I implied.

QuoteArt is subjective, of course it is.  I don't like it and you don't like it but some people do like it so that's makes it subjective.  Am I getting through?  Anybody in there?  Hello...

That's just something people who know nothing about art say. Lots of people liked Rob Liefeld. That doesn't mean he's not a horrible artist. It means they have no taste.

QuoteThis game got so much press and hype it's not surprising that a lot of people got interested in the game.  That makes me a curious, not a crime as far as I'm aware.

No , it's just kind of pathetic to blame some geeks on an internet message board you claim to despise for seducing you into purchasing a game you didn't want.

Quote"WTF, why is the hero making a getaway?

He likes to leave before she wakes up.

 

QuoteSay the villains try make a getaway, and Doucheman (played by you) tries to stop the car, catch it, bore it to death, whatever.  What happens?  Where are the stats for the car? "

If you can't figure that one out, you probably shouldn't be GMing.

Quote"I'm interested in other people's opinions Troll, it's funny you lay into me for asking about other peoples experience with the game and at the same time you tell me your opinions about the game, are you retarded? "

I like hearing the sound of my own voice, which is generally the only reason I bother saying (or typing) anything, since I long since abandoned any optimistic notion that the drama-queens of the geek forums can even muster the reading comprehension skills to come up with a passable debate. I really wasn't interested in your reply; your first post makes your maturity level clear, this most recent post is just the continued tantrums of a man-child.

QuoteYour a fucking cockstand and you owe me $10.

Very much doubt that.

Quote from: TristramEvans;418095I stand by what I said, and what I implied.

 

That's just something people who know nothing about art say. Lots of people liked Rob Liefeld. That doesn't mean he's not a horrible artist. It means they have no taste.



No , it's just kind of pathetic to blame some geeks on an internet message board you claim to despise for seducing you into purchasing a game you didn't want.



He likes to leave before she wakes up.

 

If you can't figure that one out, you probably shouldn't be GMing.



I like hearing the sound of my own voice, which is generally the only reason I bother saying (or typing) anything, since I long since abandoned any optimistic notion that the drama-queens of the geek forums can even muster the reading comprehension skills to come up with a passable debate. I really wasn't intertested in your reply; your first post makes your maturity level clear, this most recent post is just the continued tantrums of a man-child.



Very much doubt that.

Yes I've learnt everything I need to know about you in two posts.  Keyboard warrior, a pure troll and wind up artist.  As such no further "discussion" with you is possible.  

I suspect I know who you are but I will leave it to others to work that one out.  

Your posts speak volumes about you, perhaps you need a hug or a good kicking?

If you had your way there would be no forum for debate, whats the point?  This thread has 600+ reads and 30+ replies but nobody is interested.  Only your opinion matters.  

You also welch on bets, you owe me $10.  Paying your debts is an adult responsability..  oh right, sorry.

Tool, end of.

TristramEvans is my new official hero 2 posts and he already fits in here

Yeah, the "I took the advice of people I clearly hold in boundless contempt and it led me wrong and now I am enraged at them" is a bit weird. But whatever gets you through the day, I guess.

This was such a nice thread for awhile there.

Quote from: Vigilance;418241This was such a nice thread for awhile there.

Welcome to the RPGSite!

Quote from: Tetsubo;418015I haven't gotten a copy of ICONS as of yet. I have a *lot* of supers games as it is. A number of which I have yet to read and review. But the idea of random character generation just puts me off. I like to *build* my characters. Fiddle with all of the little details. Start with an initial concept and than see it through to the final product. Random doesn't really play a part in that for me.

You know you can just pick the items on the list instead of having to roll the little cubes that offend you so much, right?

This mentality always astounds me.  Those of us who think that random determination is the best literally CAN'T just randomly determine stuff fresh out of the book if the system is point-buy (at least, we'd have to make our own rudimentary table of some kind, but the reality is probably far more complicated); but people who don't like random CAN literally just pick an option instead of rolling; and yet they get pissed off at random tables and often even lobby to try to get rid of them, screwing everyone but themselves.

RPGPundit

You are of course correct. It is easy enough to do point based character creations with ICONS.

I think the point Tetsubo is making is that he has already a lot of superhero games. If he doesn't like random character generation and like to "fiddle with the details" when building a character why should he choose ICONS over a game one of the other supers system he probably already owns that support this natively?

One question though Tetsubo, how do you square this with your passion for TSR's Gamma World 4th edtion? That was pretty darn random.