I'm finishing up my first hobby game The Dragon's Labyrinth and plan on releasing it early to mid next year.  I wasn't going to talk about the game's actual mechanics until much closer to the launch... mostly because I thought this was a somewhat novel die system.

It includes a variable dice system rather than a single die unified mechanic like d20.  I hadn't seen any other RPGs like this... until this morning.

After seeing Savage Worlds mentioned on The Evil DM's blog, I decided to Wikipedia it to see what all the fuss was about:

Quote from: WikipediaA character's traits are characteristics that are rated by a single polyhedral die. The more sides the trait is rated in, the better the character is at the trait. So a character with a Strength trait of a ten-sided die (d10) is stronger than a character whose Strength trait is rated with a six-sided die (d6).
...
Dice are rolled to determine the outcome of character actions and interactions in the game. Usually a trait die is rolled against a target number of four. If the roll equals or exceeds the target number, the action succeeds; otherwise it fails.

Hmm.  Not exactly what I've done, but much closer than any other game I've seen on the market.  Both the attributes rated by a single polyhedral die, and the base target of 4 have been central to The Dragon's Labyrinth for well over a year now.  

Well, there ya go.

Does anyone know of any other games that work like this?  

Seeing as this particular piece already exists in another game system... what do you think of it?  How do you like it compared to games with a unified die mechanic, like d20?

I'd only know of Earthdawn that goes into a similar direction (though each trait level gives you a shitload of different dice, and stat changes during the game can really get a pain in the ass as you have to look up what for a dice combination you get).

As a mechanic itself, I'm indifferent to it. SWs core mechanic works fine as it is implemented, as are unified over-roll systems like D&D or CP2020, and of course both kinds of core mechanics can be fucked up if integrated poorly.

A variation on that method is also used in the cortex system, which is the base mechanic for MWP's games Serenity and Battlestar Galactica.

Each trait and each skill is represented by a die type from d4 to d12. With this system, when you make a skill check you roll the die for you trait and your skill and add them together and compare to a target number.

I'm indifferent about the die mechanics in Savage Worlds and Serenity. I love SW and despise Serenity, but it has nothing to do with the dice rolling. The basic die rolling works well enough, but personally I prefer fixed die rolling like 2d6, 2d10 or even percentile.

Quote from: StuartDoes anyone know of any other games that work like this?  

Seeing as this particular piece already exists in another game system... what do you think of it?  How do you like it compared to games with a unified die mechanic, like d20?

I don't like it. Honestly, I have no reason other than the multiple graduated die system for task resolution just felt overcomplicated in practice. It doesn't make the game play any worse than one with a simpler die mechanic, but it just feels that simpler is better in play because it allows you as a player to concentrate more on the action of play rather than the action of die-rolling. IMHO, there is some strength to using only one die type in a game (like Traveller, d6 Star Wars, True20).

Although I also feel that even when a game mechanic uses a single die type, the ones which just use a single die roll are superior to those which use multiple die rolls that increase as a character gains in power. By my play style, Traveller is thus better in play than d6 Star Wars even though I love both games.

The only game that hasn't been mentioned already that uses this kind of die mechanic is Alternity

Quote from: jeff37923even when a game mechanic uses a single die type, the ones which just use a single die roll are superior to those which use multiple die rolls that increase as a character gains in power.

Yes, I agree -- and that's the direction I've taken.  

The Window was the first thing I saw that used the different dice to represent attribute level, and a fixed target number for difficulty, but I don't know that it was the first thing that did.

The dice trick I'm checking out at the moment is the one from HDL (also employed in MetaScape II!) where a mixture of die types is used to get a broader range of results with a smoother progression. In HDL, you have increasing target numbers for task difficulties, and your attribute level (or HDL) represents half the maximum number you could roll on the dice (Half Dice Level). If your HDL is 6, you roll a d12, if it's 7, you roll a d6 + d8, if it's 8, you roll 2d8, if 9, roll a d10 + d8, and so on, from 1 to 60. Metascape uses a similar progression, but since it's hardercore, it goes from 1-100, and uses d30s and "crazy fucking moon voodoo 16 siders" to multiply the results.

I am in no way sold on the statistical validity of the math in this mechanic to simulate reality, but it's fun, and I like dice tricks.

Quote from: stu2000Metascape uses a similar progression, but since it's hardercore, it goes from 1-100, and uses d30s and "crazy fucking moon voodoo 16 siders" to multiply the results.

Oh yes, we're busting out all the crazy dice! :haw:

d14



d16



d18



Although there's weird lightning down in China Town whenever you roll the d18... :eek:

Crazy Dice = Crazy A W E S O M E

Quote from: StuartOh yes, we're busting out all the crazy dice! :haw:

d14



d16



d18



Although there's weird lightning down in China Town whenever you roll the d18... :eek:

Crazy Dice = Crazy A W E S O M E

Gah, damnit. Now I have the urge to buy these dice just so that I can say that I have them...

Quote from: StuartOh yes, we're busting out all the crazy dice! :haw:

d14



d16



d18



Although there's weird lightning down in China Town whenever you roll the d18... :eek:

Crazy Dice = Crazy A W E S O M E

Gah, damnit. Now I have the urge to buy these dice just so that I can say that I have them...

Quote from: GoOrangeA variation on that method is also used in the cortex system, which is the base mechanic for MWP's games Serenity and Battlestar Galactica.

Each trait and each skill is represented by a die type from d4 to d12. With this system, when you make a skill check you roll the die for you trait and your skill and add them together and compare to a target number.

...which had its forebear in the ill-fated Sovereign Stone.

Another game that used die steps was Ironclaw (and its sister game, Jadeclaw).

Dungeon Squad is a D&D spoof with die sizes as ability ratings. (It spawned two more "complex" versions, Alternate Dungeon Squad, and Advanced Dungeon Squad.)

Quote from: stu2000The Window was the first thing I saw that used the different dice to represent attribute level, and a fixed target number for difficulty, but I don't know that it was the first thing that did.

The Window was the first thing that popped into my mind as well, though it used an inversion of the system we're discussing here.  It was a roll-under system, so the size of the stat die decreased as the stat improved.  Thus, a target number of 4 would be very difficult with someone using a d20 stat, about even odds for someone using a d8 stat, and guaranteed success for someone with a d4 stat.

And, for the record, it was the first of its kind that I recall, back around 1998.

!i!

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeDungeon Squad is a D&D spoof with die sizes as ability ratings.

From Dirk R's quote, Dungeon Squad also uses multi-sided dice to represent archetypes, weapons, armor and spells.

I enjoy rolling only one die type per action as long as the die can explode! "Acing" in Savage Worlds is very thrilling because a very good shot that could kill you suddenly is a miss because you "aced" 4 times. Very heroic and gets the whole table going.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe Window was the first thing that popped into my mind as well, though it used an inversion of the system we're discussing here.  It was a roll-under system, so the size of the stat die decreased as the stat improved.  Thus, a target number of 4 would be very difficult with someone using a d20 stat, about even odds for someone using a d8 stat, and guaranteed success for someone with a d4 stat.

And, for the record, it was the first of its kind that I recall, back around 1998.

!i!

So it is. I checked my printout, from 98, and it noted that it had been on the net imprecisely "a couple years." So I can't lay down a date. I know in 98 there were scads of Colorado convention events featuring The Window. I believe the author is from Denver.

It is nearly impossible to design an RPG system these days that doesn't ahve a lot in common with multiple games, so don't worry about it too much. If the system works for your game and doesn't break any copywrite laws, go for it.

FWIW, SW and like systems seem to be pretty well liked.