Quote from: BadApple on October 22, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
Rating the complexity of games is a little tricky.  Simply comparing a side by side of mathematical possibilities doesn't really give anyone a real understanding of how fiddly a game is to use.  Phoenix Command is far and away more complex than anything else I've ever seen.  A complex game to me is one that requires multiple calculations, necessitates the frequent used of charts and tables, has a lot of variety subsystems, has a sharp learning curve, or some combination there of.  It's easy to say that Rolemaster is more complex than Into the Odd but where do you put Mongoose Traveller 1e in comparison to Cepheus Engine?  Not to mention that some people process some kinds of information more easily that others so that balancing the order of complexity will be different given a particular audience.

To me, complexity is linked to "how many rules apply in any one situation?" Traveller, anything but the simpler Light and Quantum versions from Stellagama, always seems to have dozens of rules for any situation. Just figuring out how far away you can use a weapon in Mongoose Traveller 2E is not simple. (It is not the range listed in the weapons table.)

Not remembering the details of Mongoose Traveller 1E, I'd consider Classic more complex than Mongoose Traveller 2E. And MgT 2E only a little more complex, if any, than Cepheus Deluxe from Stellagama.

Quote from: BadApple on October 22, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
Subjectively, I consider Cepheus Engine ans most versions of Traveller to be of moderate complexity and granularity.  IMO, this is a good thing.  Granularity is an easy one as BRP is a high granularity game with a 1 in 100 step and Tiny D6 is a 1 in 6 step game system.  Too granular and you won't notice small improvements and not granular enough will result in massive swings with the smallest of changes.  Cepheus Engine is a 1 in 36 step so that each increase of 1 in a roll or a stat is meaningful but not going to blow out the challenge.  Complexity is a bit harder to express clearly as demonstrated before.  All in all, unless someone out there has created a comparison chart for me to use, I'm going to have to use a vague statement like "fairly simple" or "very granular" to describe games.

I took granularity to mean type of character skills granularity. Statistical granularity never entered my thoughts. But I'm also in the camp of, if it doesn't make a big difference, that's just extra rules and paperwork I don't want to do. Other people like the smaller differences in statistics.

Quote from: BadApple on October 22, 2023, 07:46:01 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 22, 2023, 07:31:52 PM

In re-reading that section, specific coverage, in the same place in each review, of system lethality would be nice. I'm not one that insists that every system has to have one-shot kills of PCs. Sometimes having more resilience makes for more fun. (From a recent session of our Traveller game, no, a reasonable person is not going to hang out in a half wrecked 100 ton Scout while three System Defense Boats of 300 tons and three pirate craft of 400 tons duke it out around you. Evidently we missed some content doing that. But, darn, we want to live.)

This is something I should have thought about before.  I will definitely put in lethality levels in future reviews.  Thank you.

Again, thanks for the feedback.  Even if I don't really have a quantifiable way of referencing things like complexity on a deeply granular level, I can try to be more clear in the future about it in the future.

Quote from: Tod13 on October 22, 2023, 07:38:55 PM

You also did a Black Star review. This one I liked a lot. All the descriptions made sense. And when I disagreed with portions, it was easy to gauge the difference, since you had described the mechanics so well.

I consider this high praise.  This is what I'm after. 

My goal is to help you decide the game you want based on what your needs are, not my opinion.  I think my opinion is important but not in a way that interferes with your table getting the right material.

I'm enjoying the discussion. I understand some things are always subjective. What I found most interesting was my interpretation of the meaning of "granularity" was so out of sync. LOL. I'd forgotten statistical granularity was a thing people cared about.

Another interesting "standard" portion of a review could be: how much GM adjudication is needed?

I know some people have really strong feelings one way or the other. I look at it as, some of the systems put too much adjudication on the GM for me to want to run them or play them under a GM I wasn't familiar with. (Some of the narrative magic systems do this - you tell the GM what you want to do, and they have to come up with the rules for that situation. Well, why am I paying for the rules if I have to do the tough part?)

Quote from: Tod13 on October 22, 2023, 07:57:34 PM
Another interesting "standard" portion of a review could be: how much GM adjudication is needed?

I know some people have really strong feelings one way or the other. I look at it as, some of the systems put too much adjudication on the GM for me to want to run them or play them under a GM I wasn't familiar with. (Some of the narrative magic systems do this - you tell the GM what you want to do, and they have to come up with the rules for that situation. Well, why am I paying for the rules if I have to do the tough part?)

For me a clear and complete rules set is an absolute must for a quality game.  I do tangentially cover this by saying that the rules are clearly written and there's good examples of them in use in the book.  If a game does a poor job presenting rules, I will absolutely point it out.

Obviously, a game about mercenaries isn't going to have rules for determining the profitability of opening up a beauty salon but it damn well should have rules covering contracting combat services.

I've been enjoying the convo too.  Even if I seem to be pushing back a little, I am looking at what you bring up and thinking "how can I best put things in my reviews so that this reader is getting his questions answered?"  Without feedback, I can do a lot of writing that looks good to me but misses a lot of what reader need.

BTW, I found Friday Night Firefight online here as a .pdf.  https://www.scribd.com/document/265255759/CyberPunk-2013-Core-Friday-Night-Firefight

Quote from: BadApple on October 22, 2023, 08:56:45 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 22, 2023, 07:57:34 PM
Another interesting "standard" portion of a review could be: how much GM adjudication is needed?

I know some people have really strong feelings one way or the other. I look at it as, some of the systems put too much adjudication on the GM for me to want to run them or play them under a GM I wasn't familiar with. (Some of the narrative magic systems do this - you tell the GM what you want to do, and they have to come up with the rules for that situation. Well, why am I paying for the rules if I have to do the tough part?)

For me a clear and complete rules set is an absolute must for a quality game.  I do tangentially cover this by saying that the rules are clearly written and there's good examples of them in use in the book.  If a game does a poor job presenting rules, I will absolutely point it out.

Obviously, a game about mercenaries isn't going to have rules for determining the profitability of opening up a beauty salon but it damn well should have rules covering contracting combat services.

I've been enjoying the convo too.  Even if I seem to be pushing back a little, I am looking at what you bring up and thinking "how can I best put things in my reviews so that this reader is getting his questions answered?"  Without feedback, I can do a lot of writing that looks good to me but misses a lot of what reader need.

BTW, I found Friday Night Firefight online here as a .pdf.  https://www.scribd.com/document/265255759/CyberPunk-2013-Core-Friday-Night-Firefight

Nah. Having a different opinion is fine - which I understand. Which is why I called it a conversation. (Also why I didn't argue back, since a lot of the push back makes perfect sense. And it feels like you listened and thought, and didn't just emote at me.)

In this case, perhaps I didn't communicate my thoughts really well. (Have been busy writing all day.) I didn't mean so much unclear/poorly written rules, so much as making a note of when the system depends heavily on GM adjudication. The rules are clear and complete, but they clearly say "the GM decides this sort of thing."

One example from one of my favorite systems is DwD Studios BareBones Fantasy. (Their character morality setup and quirks are totally awesome!) In BBF, rolls are often made based on the average of two abilities or against a single ability. But what abilities apply is up to the GM and to a degree how the player describes their attempt. For example, using strength to climb a wall versus using dexterity to climb a wall. Or, is picking a lock based on dexterity or knowledge? (Knowing how it works is actually way more important than dexterity in my experience.)

When I GM, we tend to play a bit over-the-top tongue-in-cheek. So as long as I get an good or amusing explanation of the plan from the player in BBF, I let them use whatever is most advantageous. (But no, you can't charm the wall. LOL) But with a pickup game with strangers that are too "intense" about winning, it could be an issue.

Quote from: BadApple on October 22, 2023, 07:24:56 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 22, 2023, 05:14:35 PM
I'd like to see an honest review of the Glog and a few Glog variants.

To date, all I've ever seen is home brews and half finished projects.  I stopped looking at some time ago.  If there's a solid completed project that's being distributed, please give me a link.

Agreed, I think that's because it's Creative Commons share but non-commercial. So nobody is motivated to actually properly finish a GLOG variant or even polish it a super-lot. You've most likely already run across it but,
<a href="https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com/2019/10/osr-glog-based-homebrew-v2-many-rats-on.html">Rats on a Stick</a>
is probably the most complete and best known.

So a quick couple of notes.

1. I'm specifically reviewing games from the standpoint of helping the readers as consumers decide where to spend their money.  From that standpoint, I am will to take any suggestions of any games to review, any info that may need to be added,or any criticism you may have as to how well I am doing that

2.  I won't be reviewing Shadowrun.  I love the Shadowrun lore but the core game is such a mess it give me a headache trying to sort it out.

3.  If anyone else wants to do companion reviews or even counter reviews please do so.  A wider range of opinion would be a great thing.  I only ask that you be as honest as you can, keep your comments SFW if read out loud, and keep all criticism directed at the material being reviewed rather than at an author, developer or company.   Simple comments are just as acceptable as are personal anecdotes as long we stay focused on helping consumers find the right game.

I sent a PM to you a few days ago, Bad Apple.  I offered my game for review, but didn't hear back.  Let me know!

Quote from: Cathode Ray on October 25, 2023, 05:44:23 PM
I sent a PM to you a few days ago, Bad Apple.  I offered my game for review, but didn't hear back.  Let me know!

Really sorry.     I didn't check my messages.  I've responded now.

Just review games in the way that you want. Your authenticity will not come from reviewing older games vs. newer games, but how you review the games themselves. After all, you cannot satisfy everyone, nor is reviewing an old game a sudden panacea that your review of a new game is suddenly authorative.

You (clearly) come with your own perspectives and prejudices. People are going to gel with those or not and, depending on your engagement with their questions, make determinations on your honesty and personal engagement.

I'm not sure that trying to plan for that is going to help you.

Quote from: BadApple on October 19, 2023, 03:41:37 PM
Do you have any games not on my list you'd like me to review?

Are you planning to review any of The Red Room games? Wretched New Flesh is partly cyberpunk. (Release 2 of their books are setting books, while the base RPG is free.)

I misspelled cyberpunk - now I'm wondering what sort of setting cyberbunk would be. A sleep simulator? You play an electronic debunker?

Quote from: Tod13 on December 23, 2023, 09:24:36 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 19, 2023, 03:41:37 PM
Do you have any games not on my list you'd like me to review?

Are you planning to review any of The Red Room games? Wretched New Flesh is partly cyberpunk. (Release 2 of their books are setting books, while the base RPG is free.)

I misspelled cyberpunk - now I'm wondering what sort of setting cyberbunk would be. A sleep simulator? You play an electronic debunker?

I am interested in reviewing it, I just don't own it yet.  When I'm done with the current theme of cyberpunk and similar games, I want to do space opera and I'll put Wretched Space on that list as well.

Cyberbunk, the knowledge that transhumanism is bullshit and when you're dead the digital back up isn't you and doesn't want to be sentient.

Quote from: BadApple on December 23, 2023, 10:03:17 AM

Quote from: Tod13 on December 23, 2023, 09:24:36 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 19, 2023, 03:41:37 PM
Do you have any games not on my list you'd like me to review?

Are you planning to review any of The Red Room games? Wretched New Flesh is partly cyberpunk. (Release 2 of their books are setting books, while the base RPG is free.)

I misspelled cyberpunk - now I'm wondering what sort of setting cyberbunk would be. A sleep simulator? You play an electronic debunker?

I am interested in reviewing it, I just don't own it yet.  When I'm done with the current theme of cyberpunk and similar games, I want to do space opera and I'll put Wretched Space on that list as well.

Cyberbunk, the knowledge that transhumanism is bullshit and when you're dead the digital back up isn't you and doesn't want to be sentient.

LOL. That, done right, would actually make a really cool story.

The base RPG is free https://moordereht.com/product/wretched-role-playing-game/
First edition versions are free.
https://moordereht.com/product/wretched-new-flesh/
https://moordereht.com/product/wretched-space/

They have a coupon for half off 2nd Editions currently.

I got the base RPG and the first editions. Got halfway through the base RPG. Messaged The Red Room on MeWe on a post there. They replied and I gushed about their Vice/Virtue mechanic. Then, I used the coupon for several of the second editions. (I like when creators reply. Several people at Stellagama, RPGPundit, Alexander Macris, Venger Satanis, and The Red Room all reply. I like their products. And even when I didn't "need" something at the time, I've bought from each because they interact with the rest of us.)

I have a few more games in the chute to review that I already have.  Once I've finished them I will be buying a few more, including three titles from The Red Room. 

I want to review the latest edition in it's complete state so that people can get an honest view of the whole product.  I did a comparison of the free and full version of Cities without Number and I will most likely do that with the available The Red Room games as well.  Spending my own money give me the freedom to criticize without fear.

I don't own any The Red Room Products as of yet but a few of them appeal to me personally, not just as material to review. 

Thanks for reading my reviews.  I hope some people are being helped by them.

Holy Banana! The Wretched game .pdfs are HUGE!!!  580mb for a book is just over the top.  I'm going to have to wait until I get off the ship and can get a decent bandwidth before downloading them.