I'm no expert, but I find the concept of policing creativity to be anathema to the human spirit. Hyperbolic in this situation, certainly, but also I believe  true.  And isn't that the most oppressive prison of all, when you can force someone to inhibit their own imagination?

How insidious is the desire to coopt the prisoner into being his own jailor?  This desire to control the imagination is also aimed at more than just players, I think the real desire is to exert that same power upstream and intimidate the designers of games as well. It's so ... twisted.

Quote from: TJS on November 20, 2020, 04:13:04 PM

The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority.
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15

Except, as the article notes, when the wishes of the intolerant minority run too counter to the moral beliefs of the majority.

Ex.  it doesn't matter what size minority favors pedophilia; the act is so morally repellent to the majority (I know people who would seriously call shoving one alive feet first into a woodchipper to be a lawful good act) that it will never become something the majority tolerates.

Which returns to my point. If you don't want your RPG company overrun by Leftists, you need to build it to find the Leftist mentality morally repugnant (generally requiring you to have absolute control of your IP vs. licensed from another source, ensuring your successors also maintain the anti-Leftist sentiment and that you rightly tell any Leftist who whines about your games to frack off.

Quote from: Ted on November 20, 2020, 05:49:09 PM
I'm no expert, but I find the concept of policing creativity to be anathema to the human spirit. Hyperbolic in this situation, certainly, but also I believe  true.  And isn't that the most oppressive prison of all, when you can force someone to inhibit their own imagination?

How insidious is the desire to coopt the prisoner into being his own jailor?  This desire to control the imagination is also aimed at more than just players, I think the real desire is to exert that same power upstream and intimidate the designers of games as well. It's so ... twisted.

100% agree. You've succinctly stated what I've been thinking far more eloquently that I could have.

The R in RPG is about the freedom to play with ideas and beliefs you may not actually hold in real life and - gasp - ideas and beliefs that you might disagree with or even find immoral/unethical.

The creativity police want the R to be used for indoctrination. Hence, I propose we call such games IPGs, Indoctrination Playing Games or Ideology Playing Games.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
So basically... if you have non-white pre-gens you're racist, but if you have only non-white pre-gens you're also a racist. If you have female pre-gens you're sexist, but if you have only female pre-gens you're also sexist. If you have gay pre-gens you're a homophobe, if you have only gay pre-gens you're a homophobe.


The only way to win is not to play.

Fixed that for you. And I've seen every one of the above spouted. Several by the queen of insane Sarkesian herself. And then parroted by her bootlickers.

Man, I will not change anything, not one thing, to appease people who are not sitting at my table. And I've allowed entirely player created races with wierd physical features or skills/powers and even stranger vulnerabilities. Imagine playing a gibering mouther with tourettes...now imagine the smell.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on November 21, 2020, 07:19:11 PM
Imagine playing a gibering mouther with tourettes...now imagine the smell.

I recall one shopper in a game store that wanted to tell me all about his character...I think that may be a IRL example.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PMThe only way to win is not to play.

I disagree.

There's telling SJWs to fuck off.

Bluntly and with total clarity.

They need to be told FUCK OFF and people need to proceed doing whatever they want to do. Whether that's at their game table, their Thanksgiving dinner or their business.

And if the SJWs try their cancel culture bullshit, then we have to use the Streisand effect to make sure the target gains more success from the attack. Buy the "banned books" and support their enemies while denying your resources and your time from their allies.

Just do what we're already doing and continue having fun doing it.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 21, 2020, 11:42:29 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PMThe only way to win is not to play.

I disagree.

There's telling SJWs to fuck off.

Bluntly and with total clarity.

They need to be told FUCK OFF and people need to proceed doing whatever they want to do. Whether that's at their game table, their Thanksgiving dinner or their business.

And if the SJWs try their cancel culture bullshit, then we have to use the Streisand effect to make sure the target gains more success from the attack. Buy the "banned books" and support their enemies while denying your resources and your time from their allies.

I would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. You're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

It's certainly more satisfying, I won't lie.

In the big picture - I don't care.

For those that want to "play" like that? Have at it, retards. I don't give my money to those companies that promote this shit. And that's on them.

I got PUH-lenty of games to run and play. And I figure their asshattery will be the proverbial Gom-Jabbar that will turn people away from them to people like me that want to actually roleplay without those stupid considerations, and have "better" fun.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PMI would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. 

It's not the same because walking away quietly doesn't let the SJW clowns and onlookers know that pushback can and does exist. I'm not for fading away quietly.

Live and let live is ONLY works when both sides agree to do so.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PMYou're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

YES! This is why FUCK OFF is crucial pushback.

SJWs believe (with good reason) that fading away quietly equals their victory and your subservience. It only emboldens them to see what else you will give up publicly and wander away to "silently protest".

Extremists are all the same. They will expand their demands and get louder and more vicious about your compliance whenever they are given an inch. Just ask any secular Muslim who escaped from a country that fell to Islamic extremists. It's a story told in the pictures of Pakistan's streets from the 60s to today.

Give them nothing or they will take everything from us all.

Our silly elf game hobby is just a microcosm of the larger cultural struggle, and the same rules apply. Enough acts of submission and we'll find ourselves without a hobby we recognize or can participate in publicly.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
I would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. You're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

It's certainly more satisfying, I won't lie.

No. It is not the same as not playing. Unless you mean "not playing the SJW cult game of organized insane" in which case correct. Otherwise Wrong.

We have learned over and over and over and over and over to the fucking Nth degree that YOU CAN NEVER REASON WITH THEM.  Ever. Nothing you say will change their cult beliefs. And more likely will give them "proof" of your raciszm, sexizm, naziizm, ismism, and whatever else they are hallucinating today or tomorrow.

Provoking this kind of reaction is exactly what they are after. In fact, it's all they are after. It's classic troll behaviour. They sure as hell aren't interested in the games.

Quote from: Omega on November 22, 2020, 06:05:00 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
I would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. You're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

It's certainly more satisfying, I won't lie.

No. It is not the same as not playing. Unless you mean "not playing the SJW cult game of organized insane" in which case correct.

Which was what I, the OP of that statement, meant. You win by refusing to  play their game (as should be obvious from my comments in other threads where I said you need to build your RPG company to specifically resist the influence of SJWs).

While "Frack you!" can be satisfying, they can just claim you're a hateful bigot who doesn't care... its not as obvious you're rejecting their premise and they're free to assign malign motives to you.

If some SJW came screaming at me for daring to include an Asian-influenced region in my book ("Appropriation!!! REEE!!! REE!!!") my reply would be to calmly state "I reject that appreciating different cultures can be racist."

Not only do you reject them, you also now require them to justify that appreciating other cultures isn't the good you believe it to be.

They'll absolutely do that... no doubt, but you aren't trying to persuade them... just make their REEEing look more ridiculous to anyone else observing.

Don't play their games... pretend they don't exist and didn't even speak in public spaces (that ticks them off even worse than a reaction) and if you must answer, refuse to accept the basic premise of their claims.

I was a little vague in my response. I'm not saying 'don't play the game', especially YOUR game.

Don't play the SJW game. Yes, 'fuck off' and kicking them out is a perfectly legitimate response.

I generally just ignore them. That drives them crazy, because it's one thing to get a 'fuck off' reaction. They still get the cheap dopamine rush (despite now being locked out), but being treated like a piece of garden furniture freaks a lot of them out.

Sometimes, the best trick is to provoke them into stepping over the line and triggering what amounts to a social 'immune reaction' from the larger group. This requires a fair bit of finesse though, and it might be easier to just, yes, tell them to fuck off.