Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.

I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.

The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.

Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws

She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.

If the adventuring party will be in and out of taverns, or will be meeting with members of high society, or will be taking part in social gatherings; then yes, a Bard is a very cool addition to the adventuring party.  I have to question the addition of a Bard in a hardcore dungeon crawl; but in social settings, they are a good fit.

I've got a stupidly effective bard in a 3.5e campaign I'm in monthly. The trick is their perform skill is oratory and his skills are tailored for military command. He uses a mithral breastplate, longsword and bow with his magic arsenal focused on party buffs and his myriad skill points allowing him a variety of skill tricks and picking the right reserve spell feats linked to the right spells provides a bit of useful at-will oomph.

In short, he's a charismatic military officer whose, presently 9/day bardic music gives all his allies +5 to hit and damage; which in the fighting man heavy party they're a part of is pretty considerable.

This makes me think of CHA. Some questionable looking rock stars have girls flocking to them as well.

While on the topic, the book Bard series by Keith Taylor follows a Celtic bard during the Anglo-Saxon conquests and at least the first 4 books are really good.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 29, 2022, 09:23:26 AM
While on the topic, the book Bard series by Keith Taylor follows a Celtic bard during the Anglo-Saxon conquests and at least the first 4 books are really good.

If we're doing book recommendations, I'll toss in an old Warhammer novel named Storm Warriors. It's set on Albion, and a main character is a Celtic-style Bard that uses subtle magics played on a harp.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 29, 2022, 12:50:56 AM
If the adventuring party will be in and out of taverns, or will be meeting with members of high society, or will be taking part in social gatherings; then yes, a Bard is a very cool addition to the adventuring party.  I have to question the addition of a Bard in a hardcore dungeon crawl; but in social settings, they are a good fit.

Think of the Bard as pitch-hitter in those situations. Definitely not a front line character, but tough to beat in a supporting role.

There was a free book WotC let loose (way back in the day) titled Ivid the Undying. It is written by the awesome Carl Sargent. And he's got some really cool bards in that book. Some that frighten, like Nightsong and some really awesome like Lukan the Boar.

Excerpt for Lukan:
"The 37-year old Lukan is huge; 6' 4", 285 lbs., and he looks like a crazed barbarian. Red-brown hair seems to grow all over him; he has a huge bushy beard, a mane of head hair, and thick, almost furry body hair. Lukan's natural Strength rating is 18, but he possesses a magical ring which adds  +1 to Strength and which also has the combined properties of a ring of jumping and a ring of the ram. One of Lukan's best-rehearsed combat maneuvers involves using the jumping function to crash into an opponent, attacking him with his longsword +3 and the ramming attack, and then leaping back with his magical boots before his enemy has a chance of replying.
Lukan has a huge enjoyment of life. He eats like a horse, and his capacity for ale is legendary. He is especially proud of the rounded belly he has acquired from pouring endless gallons of it down his throat, and likes to sit by the fire with his hands crossed over his stomach, patting it contentedly from time to time. He's vain, of course, and he has an eye for a fine silk shirt or blouson. If he has any lapse of aesthetic sense, it is that one with a stomach so large should not really wear leather britches quite so tight-fitting.
Lukan is a warrior-bard. He doesn't sing romantic ballads or lament the tragedy of the human condition. His superb baritone voice is used to declaim stirring epic tales of might, valor and the triumphs of the good and great."

Here's an excerpt on Nightsong:
"Nightsong is consumed by a passionate desire for knowledge of all things and matters magical and mythical. With his amulet of the planes he has gathered lore and treasures from far beyond Oerth's confines. Nightsong knows the burial laments for the victims of the Invoked Devastation, the poetry of the necromantic invocations of the Ur-Flannae, and he can sing the whispering hymns of the long-dead Wind Dukes of Aaqa. Among his many magical items is a gold pendant which allows him to duplicate his own voice in harmony, an effect he uses rarely but to powerful impact.
Nightsong is also thoroughly evil. He believes that all things come to nothingness in the end, though as usual with such nihilists he shows a marked dislike for the prospect of his own death. He reveres Tharizdun as the embodiment of this principle, though he does not actively worship him. He has been approached by a spy for the Scarlet Brotherhood, but as yet has declined to act on their behalf. Should he do so, the effect on Aerdy would be dramatic."

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.

The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.

Agreed, though maybe that's an interesting world-building option. One of the problems a lot of D&D settings face is committing on what level of socio-cultural development the world is at. The Wizard and Barbarian classes, for example, assume pretty different levels of cultural development. The way most settings get around that issue is having different cultures with wildly different levels of development, so maybe some cultures should only have wizards, and some should only have bards (or druids I guess), and then maybe bards and wizards should dislike each other, on the grounds that they represent conflicting academic traditions.

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws

She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.

I do think the stereotype bard problem goes well beyond being horny, though. This is largely down to personal experience but I would happily argue that the bard is the natural default home for a certain kinds of players:

One would be the "class-clown" type, who sees the bard as an opportunity to play a flippant, meta-joking perpetual jester, and uses every single roleplaying scenario as an opportunity to do something whimsical, regardless of the context. As a couple of concessions, I blame this largely on the rulebooks and fluff text. Too many editions of D&D have their Bard illustration as some smug douche-nozzle with a goatee and tight leather pants. I do think you get this less in games that emphasize a different flavor for the class, and I also will happily admit that player is going to be a pain in the balls no matter what class they play. I just think the fact that they gravitate towards bards is part of the reason the class gets so much hate.

The other type I'll dub as the "aspiring artiste". Most people with an interest in TTRPGs have a creative or artistic bent, but there's a certain kind of player who cares way more about the "art" than the game. This is often the person who over-estimates their own acting ability and hammily dominates every scenario with their escapades and melodrama. But it also includes the person that writes 50 pages of romantic fanfiction about their character, complete with homemade illustrations (which may or may not be X-rated), but then barely participates in the actual adventure. That's what some people like, and more power to them, but it annoys a lot of DMs.

In the second case, I would again largely blame the fluff text and the way the class has developed. Ginny Di actually said it best, when she pointed out that according to the 5e PHB, bardic magic is based on "the heart and passion" they put into their art. Not only is that going to attract pretentious and/or sentimental players, but it kind of flies in the face of the internal logic of D&D. Wizard and Cleric magic is based on clearly stated universal forces, either the Weave (or it's setting equivalent) or the manifest power of the Gods. Even Warlock magic is bestowed on them by an outside power, despite for some reason still being based on Charisma. Only in the bard (and I guess maybe the Sorcerer) do you get that kind of anime-adjacent "hearts, stars and rainbows" reasoning for how magic works.

That, I think, is actually the root of the problem. The class, as it is most often stated and played, just doesn't fit with the kind of D&D a lot of people want to play. Based on what little I know about Ginny Di, I'm not surprised she would defend it. She seems like exactly the kind of person who would be specially attracted to the bard, and I would guess a lot of the most strident bard-haters would really dislike playing with her.

EDIT: In 5e specifically, it also doesn't help that the bard is an immensely powerful class. Again like Ginny Di said, it's a class that can be built to be extremely good at practically anything. So you can add another annoying player type, the "power-gamer" into the mix to explain why the bard has such bad press.

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM

Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.

I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.

The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.

Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws

She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.

Greetings!

That's a very good point, Jhkim, about Bards coming from *pre-literate* societies. In a milieu where literacy is prevalent, along with schools, academies, newspapers, and books--Bards do lose a good deal of their more historical and cultural purpose.

And yes, wizards have supplanted much of the role of "Loremaster" or Scholar--because they exist firmly within a literate world. Here again, the Bard loses out--certainly in the eye of the popular culture.

It's evident where the foppish musical entertainer image comes from. It largely is filled in by the older, more meaningful elements and traditions of Bards being stripped away. Hence, a foppish, silly entertainer is essentially what is left.

I also watched the Ginny Di video on Bards. She provides a very nice video, and makes some good observations.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 29, 2022, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.

The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.

Agreed, though maybe that's an interesting world-building option. One of the problems a lot of D&D settings face is committing on what level of socio-cultural development the world is at. The Wizard and Barbarian classes, for example, assume pretty different levels of cultural development. The way most settings get around that issue is having different cultures with wildly different levels of development, so maybe some cultures should only have wizards, and some should only have bards (or druids I guess), and then maybe bards and wizards should dislike each other, on the grounds that they represent conflicting academic traditions.

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws

She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.

I do think the stereotype bard problem goes well beyond being horny, though. This is largely down to personal experience but I would happily argue that the bard is the natural default home for a certain kinds of players:

One would be the "class-clown" type, who sees the bard as an opportunity to play a flippant, meta-joking perpetual jester, and uses every single roleplaying scenario as an opportunity to do something whimsical, regardless of the context. As a couple of concessions, I blame this largely on the rulebooks and fluff text. Too many editions of D&D have their Bard illustration as some smug douche-nozzle with a goatee and tight leather pants. I do think you get this less in games that emphasize a different flavor for the class, and I also will happily admit that player is going to be a pain in the balls no matter what class they play. I just think the fact that they gravitate towards bards is part of the reason the class gets so much hate.

The other type I'll dub as the "aspiring artiste". Most people with an interest in TTRPGs have a creative or artistic bent, but there's a certain kind of player who cares way more about the "art" than the game. This is often the person who over-estimates their own acting ability and hammily dominates every scenario with their escapades and melodrama. But it also includes the person that writes 50 pages of romantic fanfiction about their character, complete with homemade illustrations (which may or may not be X-rated), but then barely participates in the actual adventure. That's what some people like, and more power to them, but it annoys a lot of DMs.

In the second case, I would again largely blame the fluff text and the way the class has developed. Ginny Di actually said it best, when she pointed out that according to the 5e PHB, bardic magic is based on "the heart and passion" they put into their art. Not only is that going to attract pretentious and/or sentimental players, but it kind of flies in the face of the internal logic of D&D. Wizard and Cleric magic is based on clearly stated universal forces, either the Weave (or it's setting equivalent) or the manifest power of the Gods. Even Warlock magic is bestowed on them by an outside power, despite for some reason still being based on Charisma. Only in the bard (and I guess maybe the Sorcerer) do you get that kind of anime-adjacent "hearts, stars and rainbows" reasoning for how magic works.

That, I think, is actually the root of the problem. The class, as it is most often stated and played, just doesn't fit with the kind of D&D a lot of people want to play. Based on what little I know about Ginny Di, I'm not surprised she would defend it. She seems like exactly the kind of person who would be specially attracted to the bard, and I would guess a lot of the most strident bard-haters would really dislike playing with her.

EDIT: In 5e specifically, it also doesn't help that the bard is an immensely powerful class. Again like Ginny Di said, it's a class that can be built to be extremely good at practically anything. So you can add another annoying player type, the "power-gamer" into the mix to explain why the bard has such bad press.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, ForgottenF!

I'm always burdened in my visions for the Bard class with my knowledge and impressions of Bards and Skalds from reading ancient Finnish, Celtic, and Norse myths and lore. Finnish Bards were typically pretty badass characters, going off on adventures, learning secrets, seducing queens, fighting dragons and monsters. Obviously, not always alone, either, but accompanying a band of fierce warriors into the unknown. Likewise, Celtic and Norse Bards were also often involved in war, family feuds, plotting, rebellions, protecting the chieftain or their king, romances with fiery, sultry women, as well as often being involved with crazy threats from Elves, Trolls, Fomorians, Giants, and Dragons. Witches, supernatural spirits, nature spirits, nymphs, ancient curses and strange ceremonies also feature prominently. Vengeance, blood oaths, helping family members, also are often present.

From such traditions, Bards are far from being silly, foppish characters. I also should note that in many of these stories, the Bards are not even the best warriors. The Bards typically help warriors--or need the warriors to help them in whatever quest they are involved in. Despite having great cunning, deep knowledge, musical abilities, smooth charisma, and often some kind of mystical powers as well, the Bards are often in over their heads, or facing long odds. The imagery tends to be mystical, honour-bound, fierce, and bloody.

I find such contrasts with the more prevalent cultural interpretations to be considerably jarring and at odds. Your examples, besides being funny, and also definitely headache-inducing. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Two things come to mind.  First, in Castles & Crusades' Adventurers Backpack they have a Skald character that is essentially your Viking/Celtic Warrior bard with the body paint and much more oriented to fighting.  We have one in one of our games modeled on Queen Boudicca of historical fame.  Definitely diverges from the stereotypical foppish archetype and could be put into your savage frontier tribes.

Another archetype would be the pre-Islamic Bedouin cultures of the Arabian peninsula.  They fall into the lorekeeper realm, but could add a bit of flavor in the right setting.  Dashing, scimitar wielding, charismatic leader types.  Might have specialized knowledge of Geniekind, elementals, etc.

Quote from: SHARK on December 29, 2022, 05:49:16 PM
Greetings!

Excellent commentary, ForgottenF!

I'm always burdened in my visions for the Bard class with my knowledge and impressions of Bards and Skalds from reading ancient Finnish, Celtic, and Norse myths and lore. Finnish Bards were typically pretty badass characters, going off on adventures, learning secrets, seducing queens, fighting dragons and monsters. Obviously, not always alone, either, but accompanying a band of fierce warriors into the unknown. Likewise, Celtic and Norse Bards were also often involved in war, family feuds, plotting, rebellions, protecting the chieftain or their king, romances with fiery, sultry women, as well as often being involved with crazy threats from Elves, Trolls, Fomorians, Giants, and Dragons. Witches, supernatural spirits, nature spirits, nymphs, ancient curses and strange ceremonies also feature prominently. Vengeance, blood oaths, helping family members, also are often present.

From such traditions, Bards are far from being silly, foppish characters. I also should note that in many of these stories, the Bards are not even the best warriors. The Bards typically help warriors--or need the warriors to help them in whatever quest they are involved in. Despite having great cunning, deep knowledge, musical abilities, smooth charisma, and often some kind of mystical powers as well, the Bards are often in over their heads, or facing long odds. The imagery tends to be mystical, honour-bound, fierce, and bloody.

I find such contrasts with the more prevalent cultural interpretations to be considerably jarring and at odds. Your examples, besides being funny, and also definitely headache-inducing. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thing is, if I wanted to overhaul the bard in order to be in line with that Celtic/Norse tradition, I'd be stealing key features from other classes. Like if I was going to design a "Celtic Bard" class, I'd give them the druid's shapeshifting ability (there's a tradition in both norse and celtic cultures of singer-magicians being shapeshifters) and a version of the ranger's "favored enemy" ability (to represent their knowledge of the supernatural), and probably the thief's ability to use magical devices. I'd also make them an intelligence or wisdom-based caster, rather than charisma. You could do that; make the bard an arcane-themed druid-ranger hybrid, but AD&D already has a bit of a problem with class redundancy.

Much as I personally hate Dungeon World, someone wrote up a "Celtic Bard" playbook for it that I think kind of gets the flavor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14SoLRpWNp7ZWtT8ZJiGyhSzItJAiha09/view

I'll admit that one of the reasons I want to see the D&D movie is to see what they do with Chris Pine's bard character.   

Will it just be a joke?  Can he do real magic songs that work well?   Both?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2022, 09:22:25 AM
In Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool I was this >< close to running a Viking Bard.  That's because the game has war chants and other vocal only magic for them.  You can still duel wield axes and get you bloodlust on.

How about some visuals. 

And a quote.  "You zay vee bards ah pompous und gurly boys, eh?  Iz zat vaht you zink? <HEADBUTS YOU>.  Starts belting out a drinking song about the sea, adventures, gold, and ends with your mother.