Greetings!



This video is the song, "Misty Mountains" from The Hobbit, performed by Peter Hollens and featuring Tim Foust, from the accapella group, Born Free.



This video is also the song, "Misty Mountains" performed by Geoff Castellucci. Geoff Castellucci besides doing solo projects like this, is also a member of the group, VoicePlay.



This video is the song, "My Mother Told Me" adapted from the Vikings Series and the real Viking, Egil Shallagrim's original poem. Performed here by the musical group, VoicePlay. The deep bass singer is the renowned and celebrated Geoff Castellucci, seen also in the previous video, above.

These videos got me thinking about Bards in D&D. In numerous reaction videos, women viewers quite literally lose their minds and become overwhelmed with emotions and transform into drooling mush--within moments of hearing either Tim Foust's voice, or Geoff Castellucci's voice. Also, in comments, women fans have expressed that Tim and Geoff's deep voices' and powerful singing pierces their souls and makes their 'uterus vibrate". There are also of course, testimonies of live concerts where people have discussed speakers being blown, rafters flaking, cameras shaking, all kinds of incredible things caused from the vibrations set off by Foust or Geoff's deep voices. Many, many women, of all races and so on, have consistently proclaimed that listening to either of these singers, for prime examples, is a special, deep spiritual experience that makes their spines tingle and their entire being just turn to mush.

Men listeners also admit to having profound experience and impact, though more restrained than the women's reactions, and while openly admiring and in awe, do not have the same overwhelming sexually-rooted responses that the women, almost universally, seem to experience. It is admittedly astonishing to see so many women become so overwhelmed and literally mesmerized within moments of hearing these men sing--most especially Tim and Geoff. It's also interesting that many fans--again, notably the women--readily praise the other singers and band members, whether Peter Hollens with Tim Foust or the other members of VoicePlay with Geoff Cestellucci--though the women's reactions to them remain far more intellectual and otherwise articulate. For Tim and Geoff, however, the women's reactions seem to be uncontrollably primal and often barely coherent.

In thinking about these kinds of effects and dynamics, notably in the D&D game environment--I'm also struck that these so many women don't have these experiences in hours or days or repeated contact and exposure--but rather, in moments. Seconds, two or three minutes at the most.

I then thought, of course, just imagine this. These reactions aren't even provoked by *magic* or spells, like what we can see in Bard's capabilities within the game--but is provoked by pure natural ability of these men.

The response I have seen in general from both men and women to these singers has been strongly positive, for certain.

It has made me ponder though the impact and potential of Bards in the D&D game though, as a thought analysis in thinking about Bards. It seems to me that real-world evidence of the impact and effect of Bards in a non-magical sense is certainly significant and very meaningful. How much more so would a Bard's potential be in a magical D&D world?

What do you think, my friends? Should D&D Bards be reconsidered?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Old TSR reading your post: "He's right, give Bards +2 to social skill checks!"

WOTC reading your post: "What about men with falsetto voices? Did you just assume all women have a uterus? SO MUCH BIO-ESSENTIALISM!"

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:27:32 AM
Old TSR reading your post: "He's right, give Bards +2 to social skill checks!"

WOTC reading your post: "What about men with falsetto voices? Did you just assume all women have a uterus? SO MUCH BIO-ESSENTIALISM!"

Greetings!

*Laughing*!! Oh, damn! So true, Grognard GM! SO TRUE!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I prefer Bards as Player Characters in D&D because I like their jack-of-all-Trades nature from AD&D2 onward, but I think that Players themselves need to put more thought into the role that Bards played in medieval society - that of recorders of history and knowledge using songs to help with the memorization.

I'm extremely turned off of the current incarnation of D&D because the popular Bard trope is that of an oversexed musician who tries to seduce their way through life. Yes, I'm looking at you, Vox Machina. Bards can be so much more than that.

I don't allow bards in my game. They aren't in my worlds.

Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 03:22:31 AM
In thinking about these kinds of effects and dynamics, notably in the D&D game environment--I'm also struck that these so many women don't have these experiences in hours or days or repeated contact and exposure--but rather, in moments. Seconds, two or three minutes at the most.

I then thought, of course, just imagine this. These reactions aren't even provoked by *magic* or spells, like what we can see in Bard's capabilities within the game--but is provoked by pure natural ability of these men.

The response I have seen in general from both men and women to these singers has been strongly positive, for certain.

Sounds like you're thinking of this kind of RPG book...https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/12195/Book-of-Erotic-Fantasy?term=book+of+erotic+

In seriousness though, there's a very long literary tradition in multiple cultures around the idea of music having magical power. Orpheus is the most famous example, but there are many others. There's also a real world tradition of music being used in warfare. Where people get off the bus with bards is with the stereotyped image of a foppish minstrel standing in the middle of a pitched battle and playing a guitar solo. It's silly, but it is honestly how they usually get played these days.

Personally, I like the bard as middling fighter whose chief role is as a scholar and diplomat. Maybe they know a few spells, but their main power should be in knowledge. Fflewddur Fflam in the Chronicles of Pridain would be my prime example here. This seems to be in keeping with the bard's role in real history, and I think fits a lot better into the kind of implied setting most old school games are going for. It's an archetype I like, and would be enthused about getting to play.

That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.

On top of that, as a DM you're up against the fact that the annoying stereotype I mentioned earlier has thoroughly proliferated the player culture, to the point where if you have bards in your game, you're attracting a certain kind of player, and enabling them in making a very annoying character. Trying to dissuade players from that is an uphill battle that might not be worth undertaking.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2022, 05:41:53 AM
I prefer Bards as Player Characters in D&D because I like their jack-of-all-Trades nature from AD&D2 onward, but I think that Players themselves need to put more thought into the role that Bards played in medieval society - that of recorders of history and knowledge using songs to help with the memorization.

I'm extremely turned off of the current incarnation of D&D because the popular Bard trope is that of an oversexed musician who tries to seduce their way through life. Yes, I'm looking at you, Vox Machina. Bards can be so much more than that.

I think people mix up the Celtic-era bard, who was a respected historian and lawkeeper, with the high medieval minstrel or troubadour, who was more of a low-class entertainer. The idea behind including the class was probably based on the former, but the artwork and fluff text usually leans towards the latter. Come to think of it, it was probably a mistake to class bard as a thief subtype. Maybe it would have made more sense in the magic-user or cleric category.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 08:05:05 AM
That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.

Yes.  In D&D, "knowledge is power" is more of a player thing than a character thing.  The GM can work around it somewhat by the way they construct the world, but the mechanics are fighting that effort.  It also puts the players and characters at odds in some cases.  Consider the strange magic object where if the lore is not known, the result is an adventure, and if it is known, you get to bypass the adventure.  That's an extreme way of stating the problem, and again the GM can work around it somewhat, but the nudge is there.

I prefer the bard as the itinerant version of the druid, and the druid more as lore master than flinger of lightning.  Which is why in my own game, I made the attribute "Lore" instead of "Intelligence", and then tied it to more skills that D&D tends to.  Accordingly, "lore masters" can do a lot of adventuring things just better than anyone else, other training being equal.  Though bringing it full circle, I also left music out of the equation entirely when it came to magic, preferring to think of music being something that any dedicated character can do, with effects more natural than supernatural.  Though as Shark details in the evidence, the natural effects can seem almost magical.

Mainly, I think the problem with the bard aesthetic in D&D is that the bard is the "music guy" and sometimes as a corollary, the "face guy".  When those are both, or should be anyway, sub niches that any character class can do, not something built into one class.

In Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool I was this >< close to running a Viking Bard.  That's because the game has war chants and other vocal only magic for them.  You can still duel wield axes and get you bloodlust on. 

D&D has a problem with ANY characters not built for killing things well. Because it's a dungeon delver from the dawn of roleplaying, created by wargamers.

If you want to play a character that does justice to Bards, there are dozens of systems that can handle it just fine.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 28, 2022, 06:31:54 AM
I don't allow bards in my game. They aren't in my worlds.

And that is one of the reasons why people don't want to "help" you in worldbuilding.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 28, 2022, 08:25:55 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 08:05:05 AM
That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.

Yes.  In D&D, "knowledge is power" is more of a player thing than a character thing.  The GM can work around it somewhat by the way they construct the world, but the mechanics are fighting that effort.  It also puts the players and characters at odds in some cases.  Consider the strange magic object where if the lore is not known, the result is an adventure, and if it is known, you get to bypass the adventure.  That's an extreme way of stating the problem, and again the GM can work around it somewhat, but the nudge is there.

I prefer the bard as the itinerant version of the druid, and the druid more as lore master than flinger of lightning.  Which is why in my own game, I made the attribute "Lore" instead of "Intelligence", and then tied it to more skills that D&D tends to.  Accordingly, "lore masters" can do a lot of adventuring things just better than anyone else, other training being equal.  Though bringing it full circle, I also left music out of the equation entirely when it came to magic, preferring to think of music being something that any dedicated character can do, with effects more natural than supernatural.  Though as Shark details in the evidence, the natural effects can seem almost magical.

Mainly, I think the problem with the bard aesthetic in D&D is that the bard is the "music guy" and sometimes as a corollary, the "face guy".  When those are both, or should be anyway, sub niches that any character class can do, not something built into one class.

Agreed on all points.

Come to think of it, it seems like the Druid is another classic archetype that never found its dungeoneering niche, and consequently wound up being able to do everything. I don't have much experience with the 5e druid, but in 3.5 they could shapeshift, summon allies, have a powerful animal companion, good skills, decent saves, fight in melee, and hurl fire and lightning around.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2022, 05:41:53 AM
I prefer Bards as Player Characters in D&D because I like their jack-of-all-Trades nature from AD&D2 onward, but I think that Players themselves need to put more thought into the role that Bards played in medieval society - that of recorders of history and knowledge using songs to help with the memorization.

I'm extremely turned off of the current incarnation of D&D because the popular Bard trope is that of an oversexed musician who tries to seduce their way through life. Yes, I'm looking at you, Vox Machina. Bards can be so much more than that.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Ahhh, yeah, Jeff! I agree entirely. Bards originally were masters of lore, historians, and generally "clever" people--in both Celtic and Norse traditions. Both such warrior-societies, while glorifying warriors--also readily recognized that having some mystical, smart, "clever" people around was a wise thing to do. I've read that such Bards and Skalds were deeply respected, and regardless of their physical abilities, were typically patronized, protected, and honored by the warriors--most importantly, the uber badass warriors. They were keen to keep the clever Bards and Skalds close, happy, and well-protected.

That kind of smoky, tribal, blood-soaked and dangerous imagery doesn't seem to mesh so much with the more modern take on Bards, as them being more like minstrels and troubadours--which is also historical, but more from a much later medieval culture.

It's kind of interesting though, even in the smoky, blood and thunder Dark Ages environments of the fierce Celts and Norse--Bards and Skalds were also well-known for being especially popular with the women!

I've also read where many members of both such barbarian societies generally also viewed the Bards and Skalds as counselors and advisors--of course being available to the nobles and Kings--but also to the ordinary members of the community. They were generally viewed as wise and knowledgeable and able to help with almost any kind of problem, whether such were physical, political, philosophical, or marriages and relationships. Again, definitely feeding into the "Jack of all trades" kind of feel. The societies viewed them as valuable and helpful in all kinds of problems.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 08:05:05 AM

Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 03:22:31 AM
In thinking about these kinds of effects and dynamics, notably in the D&D game environment--I'm also struck that these so many women don't have these experiences in hours or days or repeated contact and exposure--but rather, in moments. Seconds, two or three minutes at the most.

I then thought, of course, just imagine this. These reactions aren't even provoked by *magic* or spells, like what we can see in Bard's capabilities within the game--but is provoked by pure natural ability of these men.

The response I have seen in general from both men and women to these singers has been strongly positive, for certain.

Sounds like you're thinking of this kind of RPG book...https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/12195/Book-of-Erotic-Fantasy?term=book+of+erotic+

In seriousness though, there's a very long literary tradition in multiple cultures around the idea of music having magical power. Orpheus is the most famous example, but there are many others. There's also a real world tradition of music being used in warfare. Where people get off the bus with bards is with the stereotyped image of a foppish minstrel standing in the middle of a pitched battle and playing a guitar solo. It's silly, but it is honestly how they usually get played these days.

Personally, I like the bard as middling fighter whose chief role is as a scholar and diplomat. Maybe they know a few spells, but their main power should be in knowledge. Fflewddur Fflam in the Chronicles of Pridain would be my prime example here. This seems to be in keeping with the bard's role in real history, and I think fits a lot better into the kind of implied setting most old school games are going for. It's an archetype I like, and would be enthused about getting to play.

That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.

On top of that, as a DM you're up against the fact that the annoying stereotype I mentioned earlier has thoroughly proliferated the player culture, to the point where if you have bards in your game, you're attracting a certain kind of player, and enabling them in making a very annoying character. Trying to dissuade players from that is an uphill battle that might not be worth undertaking.

Greetings!

Excellent, ForgottenF! Yeah! I have that book, too! The Book of Erotic Fantasy. I got it at Gen Con back in the day--autographed by Vince as I recall--and several of the women that actually appear in the book. All beautiful and sweet girls, too.  Excellent book, by the way. I also highly recommend it. Even if a DM doesn't prefer the classes, spells, or other mechanics, the book definitely presents a thorough and provocative discussion on many social and sexual topics, relationships, and how all that stuff can be used in a campaign. I should also note--the women in my groups all *loved* this particular book, without exception.

Historically, yes indeed, music ha always been a valuable contributor and influence, even in battle. The ancient Romans had musicians, who were treated special, and given special pay and privileges. The Germanic barbarians had this special rhythmic growling they did en masse, called the "Baratus" as I recall. The Romans noted it was deeply unsettling and fear-inducing, especially when brought up in the dark forests, shrouded in fog. The Romans devoted special efforts to keep their Legions standing strong, even in the face of just hearing this eerie "Baratus"

The Germanic tribes, also valued musicians and Skalds. Individuals that could speak well, sing well, play instruments with particular skill, were likewise valued and respected members of the tribe and community.

Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.

As for dungeons and such--yeah, Bards in history weren't concerned with crawling around in subterranean dungeons. They were involved with warriors gathered on battlefields, and helping people survive and thrive socially and culturally in the tribal social environment. Bards were specifically also involved spiritually as low-ranking Druids in Celtic culture--but even in Germanic and Norse cultures, their Bard-equivalents, the Skalds, were also known to be "mystical" types and skilled in magical lore. I should also mention that these dynamics were also very similar for the Finns, the Slavs, and also, even the Mongols.

In a D&D campaign, I think that helping Bards shine in a historical sense, is for the DM to actually do the work on their campaign and provide lots o lore, cultural, religious, spiritual details, all the stuff that real people deal with every day and find meaningful and important. That isn't primarily focused on actual fighting, or crawling in dungeons specifically. Having lots of social relationships in the tribe or local community also helps, and a thousand little details and dynamics where just cutting someone in half with a battle axe isn't a solution. That kind of environment, the Bard as a historical archetype, really does come through. The distinctions from a hard core warrior, a priest or shaman, a witch, wizard, or a Ranger or scout all become readily apparent and appreciated. Bards are different, and they can and should contribute as valuable members of a group in all kinds of circumstances and environments.

Historically, I also find it interesting that Bards and Skalds were also known to be sexy, charismatic people. These individuals could seduce queens, persuade great kings, intrigue and debate great druids, wizards, and priests. Even the Romans, renowned for their rough, wooden approach, especially towards barbarian peoples, also marveled at how persuasive and shrewd barbarian witches and Bards were. Likewise, Finnish Skalds were always seducing witches and sorceresses and debating with giants and dragons.

The modern interpretation of Bards, when compared to the historical and mythical archetype, I admit does often come across as shallow and more than a bit silly. And also, yeah, *Laughing*--I can see how filtering all of this in a modern campaign might very well be an "uphill battle." Player perceptions are a challenge, for sure. The culture and books do lots of work to present Bards in that kind of silly, foppish frame. I think it is a worthwhile effort though, to educate players on the more complex elements and traditions of historical archetype Bards.

Bards can be an awesome and fun class, providing many skills, nuances, and talents that other character classes and archetypes ust don't have. or at least in the same ways, in the same variety and depth.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK