Greetings!
This video is the song, "Misty Mountains" from The Hobbit, performed by Peter Hollens and featuring Tim Foust, from the accapella group, Born Free.
This video is also the song, "Misty Mountains" performed by Geoff Castellucci. Geoff Castellucci besides doing solo projects like this, is also a member of the group, VoicePlay.
This video is the song, "My Mother Told Me" adapted from the Vikings Series and the real Viking, Egil Shallagrim's original poem. Performed here by the musical group, VoicePlay. The deep bass singer is the renowned and celebrated Geoff Castellucci, seen also in the previous video, above.
These videos got me thinking about Bards in D&D. In numerous reaction videos, women viewers quite literally lose their minds and become overwhelmed with emotions and transform into drooling mush--within moments of hearing either Tim Foust's voice, or Geoff Castellucci's voice. Also, in comments, women fans have expressed that Tim and Geoff's deep voices' and powerful singing pierces their souls and makes their 'uterus vibrate". There are also of course, testimonies of live concerts where people have discussed speakers being blown, rafters flaking, cameras shaking, all kinds of incredible things caused from the vibrations set off by Foust or Geoff's deep voices. Many, many women, of all races and so on, have consistently proclaimed that listening to either of these singers, for prime examples, is a special, deep spiritual experience that makes their spines tingle and their entire being just turn to mush.
Men listeners also admit to having profound experience and impact, though more restrained than the women's reactions, and while openly admiring and in awe, do not have the same overwhelming sexually-rooted responses that the women, almost universally, seem to experience. It is admittedly astonishing to see so many women become so overwhelmed and literally mesmerized within moments of hearing these men sing--most especially Tim and Geoff. It's also interesting that many fans--again, notably the women--readily praise the other singers and band members, whether Peter Hollens with Tim Foust or the other members of VoicePlay with Geoff Cestellucci--though the women's reactions to them remain far more intellectual and otherwise articulate. For Tim and Geoff, however, the women's reactions seem to be uncontrollably primal and often barely coherent.
In thinking about these kinds of effects and dynamics, notably in the D&D game environment--I'm also struck that these so many women don't have these experiences in hours or days or repeated contact and exposure--but rather, in moments. Seconds, two or three minutes at the most.
I then thought, of course, just imagine this. These reactions aren't even provoked by *magic* or spells, like what we can see in Bard's capabilities within the game--but is provoked by pure natural ability of these men.
The response I have seen in general from both men and women to these singers has been strongly positive, for certain.
It has made me ponder though the impact and potential of Bards in the D&D game though, as a thought analysis in thinking about Bards. It seems to me that real-world evidence of the impact and effect of Bards in a non-magical sense is certainly significant and very meaningful. How much more so would a Bard's potential be in a magical D&D world?
What do you think, my friends? Should D&D Bards be reconsidered?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Old TSR reading your post: "He's right, give Bards +2 to social skill checks!"
WOTC reading your post: "What about men with falsetto voices? Did you just assume all women have a uterus? SO MUCH BIO-ESSENTIALISM!"
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2022, 03:27:32 AM
Old TSR reading your post: "He's right, give Bards +2 to social skill checks!"
WOTC reading your post: "What about men with falsetto voices? Did you just assume all women have a uterus? SO MUCH BIO-ESSENTIALISM!"
Greetings!
*Laughing*!! Oh, damn! So true, Grognard GM! SO TRUE!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I prefer Bards as Player Characters in D&D because I like their jack-of-all-Trades nature from AD&D2 onward, but I think that Players themselves need to put more thought into the role that Bards played in medieval society - that of recorders of history and knowledge using songs to help with the memorization.
I'm extremely turned off of the current incarnation of D&D because the popular Bard trope is that of an oversexed musician who tries to seduce their way through life. Yes, I'm looking at you, Vox Machina. Bards can be so much more than that.
I don't allow bards in my game. They aren't in my worlds.
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 03:22:31 AM
In thinking about these kinds of effects and dynamics, notably in the D&D game environment--I'm also struck that these so many women don't have these experiences in hours or days or repeated contact and exposure--but rather, in moments. Seconds, two or three minutes at the most.
I then thought, of course, just imagine this. These reactions aren't even provoked by *magic* or spells, like what we can see in Bard's capabilities within the game--but is provoked by pure natural ability of these men.
The response I have seen in general from both men and women to these singers has been strongly positive, for certain.
Sounds like you're thinking of this kind of RPG book...https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/12195/Book-of-Erotic-Fantasy?term=book+of+erotic+
In seriousness though, there's a very long literary tradition in multiple cultures around the idea of music having magical power. Orpheus is the most famous example, but there are many others. There's also a real world tradition of music being used in warfare. Where people get off the bus with bards is with the stereotyped image of a foppish minstrel standing in the middle of a pitched battle and playing a guitar solo. It's silly, but it is honestly how they usually get played these days.
Personally, I like the bard as middling fighter whose chief role is as a scholar and diplomat. Maybe they know a few spells, but their main power should be in knowledge. Fflewddur Fflam in the
Chronicles of Pridain would be my prime example here. This seems to be in keeping with the bard's role in real history, and I think fits a lot better into the kind of implied setting most old school games are going for. It's an archetype I like, and would be enthused about getting to play.
That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.
On top of that, as a DM you're up against the fact that the annoying stereotype I mentioned earlier has thoroughly proliferated the player culture, to the point where if you have bards in your game, you're attracting a certain kind of player, and enabling them in making a very annoying character. Trying to dissuade players from that is an uphill battle that might not be worth undertaking.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2022, 05:41:53 AM
I prefer Bards as Player Characters in D&D because I like their jack-of-all-Trades nature from AD&D2 onward, but I think that Players themselves need to put more thought into the role that Bards played in medieval society - that of recorders of history and knowledge using songs to help with the memorization.
I'm extremely turned off of the current incarnation of D&D because the popular Bard trope is that of an oversexed musician who tries to seduce their way through life. Yes, I'm looking at you, Vox Machina. Bards can be so much more than that.
I think people mix up the Celtic-era bard, who was a respected historian and lawkeeper, with the high medieval minstrel or troubadour, who was more of a low-class entertainer. The idea behind including the class was probably based on the former, but the artwork and fluff text usually leans towards the latter. Come to think of it, it was probably a mistake to class bard as a thief subtype. Maybe it would have made more sense in the magic-user or cleric category.
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 08:05:05 AM
That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.
Yes. In D&D, "knowledge is power" is more of a player thing than a character thing. The GM can work around it somewhat by the way they construct the world, but the mechanics are fighting that effort. It also puts the players and characters at odds in some cases. Consider the strange magic object where if the lore is not known, the result is an adventure, and if it is known, you get to bypass the adventure. That's an extreme way of stating the problem, and again the GM can work around it somewhat, but the nudge is there.
I prefer the bard as the itinerant version of the druid, and the druid more as lore master than flinger of lightning. Which is why in my own game, I made the attribute "Lore" instead of "Intelligence", and then tied it to more skills that D&D tends to. Accordingly, "lore masters" can do a lot of adventuring things just better than anyone else, other training being equal. Though bringing it full circle, I also left music out of the equation entirely when it came to magic, preferring to think of music being something that any dedicated character can do, with effects more natural than supernatural. Though as Shark details in the evidence, the natural effects can seem almost magical. :D
Mainly, I think the problem with the bard aesthetic in D&D is that the bard is the "music guy" and sometimes as a corollary, the "face guy". When those are both, or should be anyway, sub niches that any character class can do, not something built into one class.
In Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool I was this >< close to running a Viking Bard. That's because the game has war chants and other vocal only magic for them. You can still duel wield axes and get you bloodlust on.
D&D has a problem with ANY characters not built for killing things well. Because it's a dungeon delver from the dawn of roleplaying, created by wargamers.
If you want to play a character that does justice to Bards, there are dozens of systems that can handle it just fine.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on December 28, 2022, 06:31:54 AM
I don't allow bards in my game. They aren't in my worlds.
And that is one of the reasons why people don't want to "help" you in worldbuilding.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 28, 2022, 08:25:55 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 08:05:05 AM
That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.
Yes. In D&D, "knowledge is power" is more of a player thing than a character thing. The GM can work around it somewhat by the way they construct the world, but the mechanics are fighting that effort. It also puts the players and characters at odds in some cases. Consider the strange magic object where if the lore is not known, the result is an adventure, and if it is known, you get to bypass the adventure. That's an extreme way of stating the problem, and again the GM can work around it somewhat, but the nudge is there.
I prefer the bard as the itinerant version of the druid, and the druid more as lore master than flinger of lightning. Which is why in my own game, I made the attribute "Lore" instead of "Intelligence", and then tied it to more skills that D&D tends to. Accordingly, "lore masters" can do a lot of adventuring things just better than anyone else, other training being equal. Though bringing it full circle, I also left music out of the equation entirely when it came to magic, preferring to think of music being something that any dedicated character can do, with effects more natural than supernatural. Though as Shark details in the evidence, the natural effects can seem almost magical. :D
Mainly, I think the problem with the bard aesthetic in D&D is that the bard is the "music guy" and sometimes as a corollary, the "face guy". When those are both, or should be anyway, sub niches that any character class can do, not something built into one class.
Agreed on all points.
Come to think of it, it seems like the Druid is another classic archetype that never found its dungeoneering niche, and consequently wound up being able to do everything. I don't have much experience with the 5e druid, but in 3.5 they could shapeshift, summon allies, have a powerful animal companion, good skills, decent saves, fight in melee, and hurl fire and lightning around.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2022, 05:41:53 AM
I prefer Bards as Player Characters in D&D because I like their jack-of-all-Trades nature from AD&D2 onward, but I think that Players themselves need to put more thought into the role that Bards played in medieval society - that of recorders of history and knowledge using songs to help with the memorization.
I'm extremely turned off of the current incarnation of D&D because the popular Bard trope is that of an oversexed musician who tries to seduce their way through life. Yes, I'm looking at you, Vox Machina. Bards can be so much more than that.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Ahhh, yeah, Jeff! I agree entirely. Bards originally were masters of lore, historians, and generally "clever" people--in both Celtic and Norse traditions. Both such warrior-societies, while glorifying warriors--also readily recognized that having some mystical, smart, "clever" people around was a wise thing to do. I've read that such Bards and Skalds were deeply respected, and regardless of their physical abilities, were typically patronized, protected, and honored by the warriors--most importantly, the uber badass warriors. They were keen to keep the clever Bards and Skalds close, happy, and well-protected.
That kind of smoky, tribal, blood-soaked and dangerous imagery doesn't seem to mesh so much with the more modern take on Bards, as them being more like minstrels and troubadours--which is also historical, but more from a much later medieval culture.
It's kind of interesting though, even in the smoky, blood and thunder Dark Ages environments of the fierce Celts and Norse--Bards and Skalds were also well-known for being especially popular with the women!
I've also read where many members of both such barbarian societies generally also viewed the Bards and Skalds as counselors and advisors--of course being available to the nobles and Kings--but also to the ordinary members of the community. They were generally viewed as wise and knowledgeable and able to help with almost any kind of problem, whether such were physical, political, philosophical, or marriages and relationships. Again, definitely feeding into the "Jack of all trades" kind of feel. The societies viewed them as valuable and helpful in all kinds of problems.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
(http://m.quickmeme.com/img/07/07612a7cefa67b5f1fa66bb33813b7098220971057bb428bb29e87634d63ce29.jpg)
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 08:05:05 AM
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 03:22:31 AM
In thinking about these kinds of effects and dynamics, notably in the D&D game environment--I'm also struck that these so many women don't have these experiences in hours or days or repeated contact and exposure--but rather, in moments. Seconds, two or three minutes at the most.
I then thought, of course, just imagine this. These reactions aren't even provoked by *magic* or spells, like what we can see in Bard's capabilities within the game--but is provoked by pure natural ability of these men.
The response I have seen in general from both men and women to these singers has been strongly positive, for certain.
Sounds like you're thinking of this kind of RPG book...https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/12195/Book-of-Erotic-Fantasy?term=book+of+erotic+
In seriousness though, there's a very long literary tradition in multiple cultures around the idea of music having magical power. Orpheus is the most famous example, but there are many others. There's also a real world tradition of music being used in warfare. Where people get off the bus with bards is with the stereotyped image of a foppish minstrel standing in the middle of a pitched battle and playing a guitar solo. It's silly, but it is honestly how they usually get played these days.
Personally, I like the bard as middling fighter whose chief role is as a scholar and diplomat. Maybe they know a few spells, but their main power should be in knowledge. Fflewddur Fflam in the Chronicles of Pridain would be my prime example here. This seems to be in keeping with the bard's role in real history, and I think fits a lot better into the kind of implied setting most old school games are going for. It's an archetype I like, and would be enthused about getting to play.
That said, I totally understand why a lot of people have decided to just scrap the bard entirely. Scholar characters have always been pretty badly implemented in D&D. In old-school style play, there aren't that many times when a lore check is going to make the difference, and in new school games, they're going to be drastically underpowered relative to the other classes. Hyperborea is an example of a game where they tried to go for the bard-as-scholar approach, and the result is a supremely underwhelming class in practice. We had a bard in my Hyperborea game for a while, and the guy seemed to be completely miserable playing it. I assume this lack of a coherent niche is the reason that the bard has slowly developed into the jack-of-all-trades monster that it is in 5th edition.
On top of that, as a DM you're up against the fact that the annoying stereotype I mentioned earlier has thoroughly proliferated the player culture, to the point where if you have bards in your game, you're attracting a certain kind of player, and enabling them in making a very annoying character. Trying to dissuade players from that is an uphill battle that might not be worth undertaking.
Greetings!
Excellent, ForgottenF! Yeah! I have that book, too! The Book of Erotic Fantasy. I got it at Gen Con back in the day--autographed by Vince as I recall--and several of the women that actually appear in the book. All beautiful and sweet girls, too. Excellent book, by the way. I also highly recommend it. Even if a DM doesn't prefer the classes, spells, or other mechanics, the book definitely presents a thorough and provocative discussion on many social and sexual topics, relationships, and how all that stuff can be used in a campaign. I should also note--the women in my groups all *loved* this particular book, without exception.
Historically, yes indeed, music ha always been a valuable contributor and influence, even in battle. The ancient Romans had musicians, who were treated special, and given special pay and privileges. The Germanic barbarians had this special rhythmic growling they did en masse, called the "Baratus" as I recall. The Romans noted it was deeply unsettling and fear-inducing, especially when brought up in the dark forests, shrouded in fog. The Romans devoted special efforts to keep their Legions standing strong, even in the face of just hearing this eerie "Baratus"
The Germanic tribes, also valued musicians and Skalds. Individuals that could speak well, sing well, play instruments with particular skill, were likewise valued and respected members of the tribe and community.
Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.
As for dungeons and such--yeah, Bards in history weren't concerned with crawling around in subterranean dungeons. They were involved with warriors gathered on battlefields, and helping people survive and thrive socially and culturally in the tribal social environment. Bards were specifically also involved spiritually as low-ranking Druids in Celtic culture--but even in Germanic and Norse cultures, their Bard-equivalents, the Skalds, were also known to be "mystical" types and skilled in magical lore. I should also mention that these dynamics were also very similar for the Finns, the Slavs, and also, even the Mongols.
In a D&D campaign, I think that helping Bards shine in a historical sense, is for the DM to actually do the work on their campaign and provide lots o lore, cultural, religious, spiritual details, all the stuff that real people deal with every day and find meaningful and important. That isn't primarily focused on actual fighting, or crawling in dungeons specifically. Having lots of social relationships in the tribe or local community also helps, and a thousand little details and dynamics where just cutting someone in half with a battle axe isn't a solution. That kind of environment, the Bard as a historical archetype, really does come through. The distinctions from a hard core warrior, a priest or shaman, a witch, wizard, or a Ranger or scout all become readily apparent and appreciated. Bards are different, and they can and should contribute as valuable members of a group in all kinds of circumstances and environments.
Historically, I also find it interesting that Bards and Skalds were also known to be sexy, charismatic people. These individuals could seduce queens, persuade great kings, intrigue and debate great druids, wizards, and priests. Even the Romans, renowned for their rough, wooden approach, especially towards barbarian peoples, also marveled at how persuasive and shrewd barbarian witches and Bards were. Likewise, Finnish Skalds were always seducing witches and sorceresses and debating with giants and dragons.
The modern interpretation of Bards, when compared to the historical and mythical archetype, I admit does often come across as shallow and more than a bit silly. And also, yeah, *Laughing*--I can see how filtering all of this in a modern campaign might very well be an "uphill battle." Player perceptions are a challenge, for sure. The culture and books do lots of work to present Bards in that kind of silly, foppish frame. I think it is a worthwhile effort though, to educate players on the more complex elements and traditions of historical archetype Bards.
Bards can be an awesome and fun class, providing many skills, nuances, and talents that other character classes and archetypes ust don't have. or at least in the same ways, in the same variety and depth.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.
The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.
Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the
recent thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/i-may-have-said-somebody-of-the-community-comes-across-as-fake-am-i-wrong/) about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws
She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.
If the adventuring party will be in and out of taverns, or will be meeting with members of high society, or will be taking part in social gatherings; then yes, a Bard is a very cool addition to the adventuring party. I have to question the addition of a Bard in a hardcore dungeon crawl; but in social settings, they are a good fit.
I've got a stupidly effective bard in a 3.5e campaign I'm in monthly. The trick is their perform skill is oratory and his skills are tailored for military command. He uses a mithral breastplate, longsword and bow with his magic arsenal focused on party buffs and his myriad skill points allowing him a variety of skill tricks and picking the right reserve spell feats linked to the right spells provides a bit of useful at-will oomph.
In short, he's a charismatic military officer whose, presently 9/day bardic music gives all his allies +5 to hit and damage; which in the fighting man heavy party they're a part of is pretty considerable.
This makes me think of CHA. Some questionable looking rock stars have girls flocking to them as well.
While on the topic, the book Bard series by Keith Taylor follows a Celtic bard during the Anglo-Saxon conquests and at least the first 4 books are really good.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 29, 2022, 09:23:26 AM
While on the topic, the book Bard series by Keith Taylor follows a Celtic bard during the Anglo-Saxon conquests and at least the first 4 books are really good.
If we're doing book recommendations, I'll toss in an old Warhammer novel named Storm Warriors. It's set on Albion, and a main character is a Celtic-style Bard that uses subtle magics played on a harp.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 29, 2022, 12:50:56 AM
If the adventuring party will be in and out of taverns, or will be meeting with members of high society, or will be taking part in social gatherings; then yes, a Bard is a very cool addition to the adventuring party. I have to question the addition of a Bard in a hardcore dungeon crawl; but in social settings, they are a good fit.
Think of the Bard as pitch-hitter in those situations. Definitely not a front line character, but tough to beat in a supporting role.
There was a free book WotC let loose (way back in the day) titled Ivid the Undying. It is written by the awesome Carl Sargent. And he's got some really cool bards in that book. Some that frighten, like Nightsong and some really awesome like Lukan the Boar.
Excerpt for Lukan:
"The 37-year old Lukan is huge; 6' 4", 285 lbs., and he looks like a crazed barbarian. Red-brown hair seems to grow all over him; he has a huge bushy beard, a mane of head hair, and thick, almost furry body hair. Lukan's natural Strength rating is 18, but he possesses a magical ring which adds +1 to Strength and which also has the combined properties of a ring of jumping and a ring of the ram. One of Lukan's best-rehearsed combat maneuvers involves using the jumping function to crash into an opponent, attacking him with his longsword +3 and the ramming attack, and then leaping back with his magical boots before his enemy has a chance of replying.
Lukan has a huge enjoyment of life. He eats like a horse, and his capacity for ale is legendary. He is especially proud of the rounded belly he has acquired from pouring endless gallons of it down his throat, and likes to sit by the fire with his hands crossed over his stomach, patting it contentedly from time to time. He's vain, of course, and he has an eye for a fine silk shirt or blouson. If he has any lapse of aesthetic sense, it is that one with a stomach so large should not really wear leather britches quite so tight-fitting.
Lukan is a warrior-bard. He doesn't sing romantic ballads or lament the tragedy of the human condition. His superb baritone voice is used to declaim stirring epic tales of might, valor and the triumphs of the good and great."
Here's an excerpt on Nightsong:
"Nightsong is consumed by a passionate desire for knowledge of all things and matters magical and mythical. With his amulet of the planes he has gathered lore and treasures from far beyond Oerth's confines. Nightsong knows the burial laments for the victims of the Invoked Devastation, the poetry of the necromantic invocations of the Ur-Flannae, and he can sing the whispering hymns of the long-dead Wind Dukes of Aaqa. Among his many magical items is a gold pendant which allows him to duplicate his own voice in harmony, an effect he uses rarely but to powerful impact.
Nightsong is also thoroughly evil. He believes that all things come to nothingness in the end, though as usual with such nihilists he shows a marked dislike for the prospect of his own death. He reveres Tharizdun as the embodiment of this principle, though he does not actively worship him. He has been approached by a spy for the Scarlet Brotherhood, but as yet has declined to act on their behalf. Should he do so, the effect on Aerdy would be dramatic."
Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.
The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.
Agreed, though maybe that's an interesting world-building option. One of the problems a lot of D&D settings face is committing on what level of socio-cultural development the world is at. The Wizard and Barbarian classes, for example, assume pretty different levels of cultural development. The way most settings get around that issue is having different cultures with wildly different levels of development, so maybe some cultures should only have wizards, and some should only have bards (or druids I guess), and then maybe bards and wizards should dislike each other, on the grounds that they represent conflicting academic traditions.
Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/i-may-have-said-somebody-of-the-community-comes-across-as-fake-am-i-wrong/) about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws
She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.
I do think the stereotype bard problem goes well beyond being horny, though. This is largely down to personal experience but I would happily argue that the bard is the natural default home for a certain kinds of players:
One would be the "class-clown" type, who sees the bard as an opportunity to play a flippant, meta-joking perpetual jester, and uses every single roleplaying scenario as an opportunity to do something whimsical, regardless of the context. As a couple of concessions, I blame this largely on the rulebooks and fluff text. Too many editions of D&D have their Bard illustration as some smug douche-nozzle with a goatee and tight leather pants. I do think you get this less in games that emphasize a different flavor for the class, and I also will happily admit that player is going to be a pain in the balls no matter what class they play. I just think the fact that they gravitate towards bards is part of the reason the class gets so much hate.
The other type I'll dub as the "aspiring artiste". Most people with an interest in TTRPGs have a creative or artistic bent, but there's a certain kind of player who cares way more about the "art" than the game. This is often the person who over-estimates their own acting ability and hammily dominates every scenario with their escapades and melodrama. But it also includes the person that writes 50 pages of romantic fanfiction about their character, complete with homemade illustrations (which may or may not be X-rated), but then barely participates in the actual adventure. That's what some people like, and more power to them, but it annoys a lot of DMs.
In the second case, I would again largely blame the fluff text and the way the class has developed. Ginny Di actually said it best, when she pointed out that according to the 5e PHB, bardic magic is based on "the heart and passion" they put into their art. Not only is that going to attract pretentious and/or sentimental players, but it kind of flies in the face of the internal logic of D&D. Wizard and Cleric magic is based on clearly stated universal forces, either the Weave (or it's setting equivalent) or the manifest power of the Gods. Even Warlock magic is bestowed on them by an outside power, despite for some reason still being based on Charisma. Only in the bard (and I guess maybe the Sorcerer) do you get that kind of anime-adjacent "hearts, stars and rainbows" reasoning for how magic works.
That, I think, is actually the root of the problem. The class, as it is most often stated and played, just doesn't fit with the kind of D&D a lot of people want to play. Based on what little I know about Ginny Di, I'm not surprised she would defend it. She seems like exactly the kind of person who would be specially attracted to the bard, and I would guess a lot of the most strident bard-haters would really dislike playing with her.
EDIT: In 5e specifically, it also doesn't help that the bard is an immensely powerful class. Again like Ginny Di said, it's a class that can be built to be extremely good at practically anything. So you can add another annoying player type, the "power-gamer" into the mix to explain why the bard has such bad press.
Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.
The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.
Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/i-may-have-said-somebody-of-the-community-comes-across-as-fake-am-i-wrong/) about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws
She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.
Greetings!
That's a very good point, Jhkim, about Bards coming from *pre-literate* societies. In a milieu where literacy is prevalent, along with schools, academies, newspapers, and books--Bards do lose a good deal of their more historical and cultural purpose.
And yes, wizards have supplanted much of the role of "Loremaster" or Scholar--because they exist firmly within a literate world. Here again, the Bard loses out--certainly in the eye of the popular culture.
It's evident where the foppish musical entertainer image comes from. It largely is filled in by the older, more meaningful elements and traditions of Bards being stripped away. Hence, a foppish, silly entertainer is essentially what is left.
I also watched the Ginny Di video on Bards. She provides a very nice video, and makes some good observations.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 29, 2022, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.
The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.
Agreed, though maybe that's an interesting world-building option. One of the problems a lot of D&D settings face is committing on what level of socio-cultural development the world is at. The Wizard and Barbarian classes, for example, assume pretty different levels of cultural development. The way most settings get around that issue is having different cultures with wildly different levels of development, so maybe some cultures should only have wizards, and some should only have bards (or druids I guess), and then maybe bards and wizards should dislike each other, on the grounds that they represent conflicting academic traditions.
Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
Coincidentally, I was just listening to some of the Youtuber Ginny Di, based on the recent thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/i-may-have-said-somebody-of-the-community-comes-across-as-fake-am-i-wrong/) about her. One of the episodes I listened to was a recent one of hers about bards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwzQHKEcWws
She's annoyed by apparently the common stereotype of bards as sexual.
I do think the stereotype bard problem goes well beyond being horny, though. This is largely down to personal experience but I would happily argue that the bard is the natural default home for a certain kinds of players:
One would be the "class-clown" type, who sees the bard as an opportunity to play a flippant, meta-joking perpetual jester, and uses every single roleplaying scenario as an opportunity to do something whimsical, regardless of the context. As a couple of concessions, I blame this largely on the rulebooks and fluff text. Too many editions of D&D have their Bard illustration as some smug douche-nozzle with a goatee and tight leather pants. I do think you get this less in games that emphasize a different flavor for the class, and I also will happily admit that player is going to be a pain in the balls no matter what class they play. I just think the fact that they gravitate towards bards is part of the reason the class gets so much hate.
The other type I'll dub as the "aspiring artiste". Most people with an interest in TTRPGs have a creative or artistic bent, but there's a certain kind of player who cares way more about the "art" than the game. This is often the person who over-estimates their own acting ability and hammily dominates every scenario with their escapades and melodrama. But it also includes the person that writes 50 pages of romantic fanfiction about their character, complete with homemade illustrations (which may or may not be X-rated), but then barely participates in the actual adventure. That's what some people like, and more power to them, but it annoys a lot of DMs.
In the second case, I would again largely blame the fluff text and the way the class has developed. Ginny Di actually said it best, when she pointed out that according to the 5e PHB, bardic magic is based on "the heart and passion" they put into their art. Not only is that going to attract pretentious and/or sentimental players, but it kind of flies in the face of the internal logic of D&D. Wizard and Cleric magic is based on clearly stated universal forces, either the Weave (or it's setting equivalent) or the manifest power of the Gods. Even Warlock magic is bestowed on them by an outside power, despite for some reason still being based on Charisma. Only in the bard (and I guess maybe the Sorcerer) do you get that kind of anime-adjacent "hearts, stars and rainbows" reasoning for how magic works.
That, I think, is actually the root of the problem. The class, as it is most often stated and played, just doesn't fit with the kind of D&D a lot of people want to play. Based on what little I know about Ginny Di, I'm not surprised she would defend it. She seems like exactly the kind of person who would be specially attracted to the bard, and I would guess a lot of the most strident bard-haters would really dislike playing with her.
EDIT: In 5e specifically, it also doesn't help that the bard is an immensely powerful class. Again like Ginny Di said, it's a class that can be built to be extremely good at practically anything. So you can add another annoying player type, the "power-gamer" into the mix to explain why the bard has such bad press.
Greetings!
Excellent commentary, ForgottenF!
I'm always burdened in my visions for the Bard class with my knowledge and impressions of Bards and Skalds from reading ancient Finnish, Celtic, and Norse myths and lore. Finnish Bards were typically pretty badass characters, going off on adventures, learning secrets, seducing queens, fighting dragons and monsters. Obviously, not always alone, either, but accompanying a band of fierce warriors into the unknown. Likewise, Celtic and Norse Bards were also often involved in war, family feuds, plotting, rebellions, protecting the chieftain or their king, romances with fiery, sultry women, as well as often being involved with crazy threats from Elves, Trolls, Fomorians, Giants, and Dragons. Witches, supernatural spirits, nature spirits, nymphs, ancient curses and strange ceremonies also feature prominently. Vengeance, blood oaths, helping family members, also are often present.
From such traditions, Bards are far from being silly, foppish characters. I also should note that in many of these stories, the Bards are not even the best warriors. The Bards typically help warriors--or need the warriors to help them in whatever quest they are involved in. Despite having great cunning, deep knowledge, musical abilities, smooth charisma, and often some kind of mystical powers as well, the Bards are often in over their heads, or facing long odds. The imagery tends to be mystical, honour-bound, fierce, and bloody.
I find such contrasts with the more prevalent cultural interpretations to be considerably jarring and at odds. Your examples, besides being funny, and also definitely headache-inducing. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Two things come to mind. First, in Castles & Crusades' Adventurers Backpack they have a Skald character that is essentially your Viking/Celtic Warrior bard with the body paint and much more oriented to fighting. We have one in one of our games modeled on Queen Boudicca of historical fame. Definitely diverges from the stereotypical foppish archetype and could be put into your savage frontier tribes.
Another archetype would be the pre-Islamic Bedouin cultures of the Arabian peninsula. They fall into the lorekeeper realm, but could add a bit of flavor in the right setting. Dashing, scimitar wielding, charismatic leader types. Might have specialized knowledge of Geniekind, elementals, etc.
Quote from: SHARK on December 29, 2022, 05:49:16 PM
Greetings!
Excellent commentary, ForgottenF!
I'm always burdened in my visions for the Bard class with my knowledge and impressions of Bards and Skalds from reading ancient Finnish, Celtic, and Norse myths and lore. Finnish Bards were typically pretty badass characters, going off on adventures, learning secrets, seducing queens, fighting dragons and monsters. Obviously, not always alone, either, but accompanying a band of fierce warriors into the unknown. Likewise, Celtic and Norse Bards were also often involved in war, family feuds, plotting, rebellions, protecting the chieftain or their king, romances with fiery, sultry women, as well as often being involved with crazy threats from Elves, Trolls, Fomorians, Giants, and Dragons. Witches, supernatural spirits, nature spirits, nymphs, ancient curses and strange ceremonies also feature prominently. Vengeance, blood oaths, helping family members, also are often present.
From such traditions, Bards are far from being silly, foppish characters. I also should note that in many of these stories, the Bards are not even the best warriors. The Bards typically help warriors--or need the warriors to help them in whatever quest they are involved in. Despite having great cunning, deep knowledge, musical abilities, smooth charisma, and often some kind of mystical powers as well, the Bards are often in over their heads, or facing long odds. The imagery tends to be mystical, honour-bound, fierce, and bloody.
I find such contrasts with the more prevalent cultural interpretations to be considerably jarring and at odds. Your examples, besides being funny, and also definitely headache-inducing. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thing is, if I wanted to overhaul the bard in order to be in line with that Celtic/Norse tradition, I'd be stealing key features from other classes. Like if I was going to design a "Celtic Bard" class, I'd give them the druid's shapeshifting ability (there's a tradition in both norse and celtic cultures of singer-magicians being shapeshifters) and a version of the ranger's "favored enemy" ability (to represent their knowledge of the supernatural), and probably the thief's ability to use magical devices. I'd also make them an intelligence or wisdom-based caster, rather than charisma. You could do that; make the bard an arcane-themed druid-ranger hybrid, but AD&D already has a bit of a problem with class redundancy.
Much as I personally hate Dungeon World, someone wrote up a "Celtic Bard" playbook for it that I think kind of gets the flavor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14SoLRpWNp7ZWtT8ZJiGyhSzItJAiha09/view
I'll admit that one of the reasons I want to see the D&D movie is to see what they do with Chris Pine's bard character.
Will it just be a joke? Can he do real magic songs that work well? Both?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2022, 09:22:25 AM
In (//)Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool I was this >< close to running a Viking Bard. That's because the game has war chants and other vocal only magic for them. You can still duel wield axes and get you bloodlust on.
How about some visuals.
And a quote. "You zay vee bards ah pompous und gurly boys, eh? Iz zat vaht you zink? <HEADBUTS YOU>. Starts belting out a drinking song about the sea, adventures, gold, and ends with your mother.
I love bards. 8) They are that jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none that really complements a party AND glues the party into the soft-tether campaign's social lifeblood. That almost everyone smart enough to speak likes music, and especially praise music that makes them memorable to others, is a golden ticket to some eccentric encounters creating strange favors.
That armor allowance at the beginning, along with some Thieves' Skills, really helps them mix it up with party placement. A solid support regardless of composition, especially if your GM likes to tempt the party into cool party-splitting opportunities. (You DO tempt your parties with beneficial party-splitting opportunities, don't you? >:( All stick no carrot will lead to stale routine play.) And this is even moreso if you actively use that Reaction roll.
I think people need to diversify their play with different party compositions just to see how different classes and sub-classes can take on the same adventure challenges. Once you see the potential you realize there's a lot of depth of play to mine in what seems "not focused enough". ;)
Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2022, 12:22:42 AM
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 05:04:11 PM
Indeed, I also love the Bard archetype as a warrior/scholar. It's often forgotten, especially by modern audiences, that barbarian/primitive/Dark Ages/Tribal peoples, while not being as sophisticated or specialized as larger, urban civilizations, even they, too, recognized individuals that had special talents for wisdom, knowledge, music, and just *thinking* deeper, and differently than the normal tribal person.
I've mentioned this in a previous thread. The problem with the bard as scholar is that to the modern mind, the archetype for the scholar is the bookworm - someone who has digested thick tomes of knowledge. And in D&D and in most of modern fantasy fiction, that archetype is the wizard.
The bard comes from pre-literate cultures, when memorizing long poetic sagas to music was how knowledge was transmitted. If we're in a culture that has lots of books and literacy is common (which is the assumption in D&D), then the bard as scholar doesn't work as well. I think unfortunately, the bard archetype just isn't as strong when there's a literate culture. Still, individual bard characters can still be interesting as generalists and artists. I might post again with some weaker archetypes of bards that work.
The D&D mage may be educated, but they are not, typically, a communicator. They study the secrets of magic, but don't go around teaching them.
The bard, on the other hand, is primarily a communicator.
One role they have in an adventuring party is that they can tell the story of the other player characters. Helping to build the myth of someone else's character is every bit as much fun as coming up with your own concepts. And some players are bad at talking up their own characters. if a bard can create the story of Sir Doug the Fearless, because Doug made his saving throw that one time, then Sir Doug now has some of that larger than life sense of heroism that helps the game to come alive.
They can also do the talking for characters that used Charisma as their dump stat. And if that becomes burdensome, you can have them roll to do it, instead of acting it out and taking up too much of the game session.
They might also serve as the party detective, or as something of a Renaissance Man, or as a spy.
I have around 1 bard per 60,000 in the population. From their number a couple are world-class... Sting, McCartney, etc. most of our bards are vagabond sorts.
QuoteOne role they have in an adventuring party is that they can tell the story of the other player characters. Helping to build the myth of someone else's character is every bit as much fun as coming up with your own concepts. And some players are bad at talking up their own characters. if a bard can create the story of Sir Doug the Fearless, because Doug made his saving throw that one time, then Sir Doug now has some of that larger than life sense of heroism that helps the game to come alive.
Interesting option for older edition where certain social umph acquired with leveling like henchmen, or guild status was part of class leveling - the bard/skald could increase his team-mates options in this regard. Not getting followers himself maybe - but let's say - spending X time and some resources he can get his fighting-man buddy extra D6 followers compared to his usual FM limits.