Quote from: vytzka;687847You know, it's harder to rely on your imagination the further out from human/historical baseline you deviate.

For you maybe.

I'm fully capable of imagining a person with angel wings doing cool shit and adjudicating that in a role-playing game.

You have large feathered wings. You have a flying movement speed of 18', and can hover for short periods of time. Because your society has been stagnant for millennia, and receded long before the rise of Man, you process your experiences and learn from them slower. -10% Experience. Level limitations include Fighter 5, MU 6, Ranger 4, Paladin 6. There are no thieves, nor druids, nor clerics amongst your people. They are so few they abide by the laws of the aviaries or die. The Gods have long been silent to them, but for very few dedicated Paladins, the elite of the Aviaries, who are the incarnation of the winged spirits of the Dying Light in the world, and very rare travelers (rangers) who have decided to mingle with the natural world and defend it, rather than stay in the aviaries to serve the Dying Light.

/done.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;687836Since you used double-quotes, I presume that you're actually quoting what someone actually said, rather than making up words that you think are to the same effect?  Because I know a lot of people (like myself) that enjoy meaningful character options but I don't fit into any of those quotes.  So, maybe you could provide links to the original quotes?

Or if you're just making up interpretations of what you think you've read, perhaps you should say that, and if you're interested in why others don't share your enthusiasm for Next, you could always ask.

Most of them are found here.

I didn't go through all 45+ pages to search for each one again, but here's a direct quote of what I'm talking about:

QuoteDnd promotes looking at your numbers and using your character's math against your enemy's math to win. It doesn't actively support imagination in a combat round any more than Monopoly. My number beats his, he dies. His roll fails my DC, he dies.

Ugh, that is a pretty limited POV on gaming in general from that fellow, but there's not much you can do for someone with that kind of mindset. OTOH most of the people I play with (two teenagers and three adults) create their PC concept in one of two ways:

• Come in with a concept and build around it.
• Make the character and use the outcome as inspriation.

I don't think either is that uncommon.

Also, something about that Lofgren pic makes me think of Willingham's D&D art. Homage, coincidence, or am I crazy?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;687870Most of them are found here.

I didn't go through all 45+ pages to search for each one again, but here's a direct quote of what I'm talking about:

So even assuming that this time the quote is genuine, one guy does not equate to 'lots of people'. I'm pretty sure I can find one guy saying something stupid on any side of any argument, it doesn't mean they're representative.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;687870Most of them are found here.

I didn't go through all 45+ pages to search for each one again, but here's a direct quote of what I'm talking about:

My assumption is that there is a lot of context missing.  I can see how 'roll d20, roll damage' doesn't involve any imagination.  But in my opinion, if you're not using your imagination, you're not doing it right.  Saying the rules don't 'create' imagination is probably fair (and would be popular around here, I'd wager).  

But if this person is saying that there is no imagination in D&D, that doesn't represent my experience.

Quote from: soviet;687882So even assuming that this time the quote is genuine, one guy does not equate to 'lots of people'. I'm pretty sure I can find one guy saying something stupid on any side of any argument, it doesn't mean they're representative.

It's pretty representative of the bulk of the prolific posters there, just like most of the posters at TBP are pro-4e and anti-everything else.  Live in denial all you want.

If we're at a point in this industry where people who think that D&D isn't about imagination and all combat is trivial unless you have codified powers and/or abilities that allow you to make choices in combat around ONLY those abilities deserve an equal platform as everyone else to share their opinion, then it's a sad day for the hobby.  I'm sorry, but someone who misses the point of what a tabletop RPG is designed to do shouldn't have an equal footing.  The whole point of a TTRPG is that you aren't constrained by the limitations of a computer game, but rather are encouraged to reach the limits of your imagination.  If a person has no imagination and only functions in the constrains of DPR, then they should about as much say as to the direction the hobby should go as the anti-social "unable to function in society" person should have when dictating human social behavior.

And they do.  If someone professes that 'only numbers matter' and that imagination or game world or anything else has no bearing at all, their argument will be revealed as without merit and they will not receive any consideration.

That shouldn't stop them from professing their beliefs - but as long as they explain why they think the way they do they aren't going to win anybody over to their side.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;687895It's pretty representative of the bulk of the prolific posters there, just like most of the posters at TBP are pro-4e and anti-everything else.  Live in denial all you want.

If we're at a point in this industry where people who think that D&D isn't about imagination and all combat is trivial unless you have codified powers and/or abilities that allow you to make choices in combat around ONLY those abilities deserve an equal platform as everyone else to share their opinion, then it's a sad day for the hobby.  I'm sorry, but someone who misses the point of what a tabletop RPG is designed to do shouldn't have an equal footing.  The whole point of a TTRPG is that you aren't constrained by the limitations of a computer game, but rather are encouraged to reach the limits of your imagination.  If a person has no imagination and only functions in the constrains of DPR, then they should about as much say as to the direction the hobby should go as the anti-social "unable to function in society" person should have when dictating human social behavior.

Even the guy you're pretending is representative isn't saying what you claim he's saying.  

And even then, the rest of the posters in that thread are disagreeing with him.

You just put these claims up and hope no-one checks them, don't you?

Quote from: soviet;687906Even the guy you're pretending is representative isn't saying what you claim he's saying.  

And even then, the rest of the posters in that thread are disagreeing with him.

You just put these claims up and hope no-one checks them, don't you?

You're not reading that thread are you?  Him, polaris (same polaris as TBP, no surprise there), lawolf, lokaire, and about a dozen others all espouse the same or similar viewpoints.

Well regardless of whether guys like polaris are representative of RPGnet or not, there's a wider, more important point that's being missed here: RPGnet is NOT representative of the hobby nor the industry at large. Therefore, basing a feeling about being a dying breed or whatnot based on what some RPGnet posters think about it is already giving them WAY too much credit in my opinion.

Just keep on gaming.

Quote from: Benoist;687912Well regardless of whether guys like polaris are representative of RPGnet or not, there's a wider, more important point that's being missed here: RPGnet is NOT representative of the hobby nor the industry at large. Therefore, basing a feeling about being a dying breed or whatnot based on what some RPGnet posters think about it is already giving them WAY too much credit in my opinion.

Just keep on gaming.

It's actually the official WOTC forums, not RPG.net.  I find it worrying because Mearls has said they factor in feedback from their forums as well as RPG.net (he named them specifically)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;687916It's actually the official WOTC forums, not RPG.net.  I find it worrying because Mearls has said they factor in feedback from their forums as well as RPG.net (he named them specifically)

Well, if they trust these forums as a representation of what actual gamers think about the game they like and play, then they're setting themselves up like they did for late 3.5 and 4e by giving the whiners of sites like ENWorld way too much importance in the first place. It's on them at this point.

I would take what Mearls' says... anything he says really, with an ENORMOUS grain of salt, though.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;687870Most of them are found here.

I didn't go through all 45+ pages to search for each one again, but here's a direct quote of what I'm talking about:

First off, those quotes are hardly representative of everybody who is interested in Next (not to mention all the people who haven't even heard of it yet but will buy it anyway).

Secondly, it's just internet posturing. You're not a dying breed. People who aren't char op fiends and theory-wanks, who are happily playing an edition of D&D that pretty much works okay for them and their friends - they're the majority of D&D players. Always have been. Don't let the peculiar obsessions of forum drama queens distort your view of the D&D market.

The reason those people are bitching so much is because they realize the next edition of D&D isn't being designed for them. If they weren't bitching - then you should be scared. But everything Mearls has said about Next, and the playtest rules themselves, show the WotC are aiming next squarely at the casual players market - the lapsed old-school players and potential new players who found 3E and 4E too hard to get into.

Quote from: Haffrung;687938But everything Mearls has said about Next, and the playtest rules themselves, show the WotC are aiming next squarely at the casual players market - the lapsed old-school players and potential new players who found 3E and 4E too hard to get into.

Ok two things -_-

One, don't read too much into what's coming out of the Mearls. Stringing people along is his specialty, remember skill challenges, heck remeber Iron Heroes >_<

Two, bro if your keep going on about how black that kettle is consider looking in the mirror first. You deep desires for what RPGs should be like aren't necessarily more representative of what attracts players than anyone else's ;3