and perhaps I just need to accept that the hobby is moving past me.  For example, when I think of character generation, I approach it something like this:




However, it increasingly seems like, judging by many internet conversations with current players, that character generation is being approached like this nowadays

Quote from: Sacrosanct;684975and perhaps I just need to accept that the hobby is moving past me.  For example, when I think of character generation, I approach it something like this:

This is the primary way I create my characters and I started with 3.0.  Currently playing Pathfinder.

I wish those games were friendlier to that creation method, but in some ways they're still friendlier to it than older games.  At least for my characters.

Still nod off whenever someone discusses character creation with the second method though.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;684975and perhaps I just need to accept that the hobby is moving past me.  For example, when I think of character generation, I approach it something like this:



However, it increasingly seems like, judging by many internet conversations with current players, that character generation is being approached like this nowadays

I do not think that the two pieces are exclusive.  But I agree that an obsessive focus on the numbers can actually interfere with the quality of the imagination part of the game.

Quote from: Votan;684980I do not think that the two pieces are exclusive.  But I agree that an obsessive focus on the numbers can actually interfere with the quality of the imagination part of the game.

It just seems that, especially recently with the announcement of Next, that everyone is about the numbers.  Almost to an obsessive level.  Nothing else matters, not the environment, not the game world, not the NPCs, not the stories, none of it matters anywhere near as much as making sure that DPR is calculated for each class/race combination and compared to monsters and each other so arena battle simulations can take place like some sort of RPG version of Deadliest Warrior.

Then I'm part of the same breed.

I am unrepentantly standing alongside you. Give me daydreams and whimsy over spreadsheets any day.

Maybe we're a slowly dying breed, but there's still plenty of us here.

Could this have been caused by the disparity between that picture you posted and how older games actually generated PCs?

I mean if the lady in the picture is dreaming up a butt-kicking warrior in shining armor, and then has to roll 3d6 for stats straight down the row (or even 4d6 drop the lowest), there is no guarantee that she will be able to play what she envisions.

I think the spreadsheet below the picture is an extreme case of ensuring the character you have envisioned, and desire to play, is what is actually represented on your character sheet.

Older D&D type games don't really allow you to ensure you get the character you want. If the lady in the picture sat down to a Basic or AD&D game and said she wanted to play a physically strong, wise, and attractive warrior before rolling her random ability scores she may be told she has to let the dice fall where they may.

"Sorry you rolled an 8 for strength so fighter is out. Maybe you could be a thief or magic user."

I think the spreadsheets, feats, daily powers, etc. in newer games are an over reaction to that lady in your picture being told "sorry you can't have that character you were dreaming of".

I am not hostile to older games or random character generation. I am merely pointing out that I think the emphasis on character customization in newer games is a reaction to the randomness in older games character generation systems.

Unfortunately with character customization comes the evils of character optimization and that spreadsheet example you gave.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;684982It just seems that, especially recently with the announcement of Next, that everyone is about the numbers.  Almost to an obsessive level.  Nothing else matters, not the environment, not the game world, not the NPCs, not the stories, none of it matters anywhere near as much as making sure that DPR is calculated for each class/race combination and compared to monsters and each other so arena battle simulations can take place like some sort of RPG version of Deadliest Warrior.

WotC has said that the feedback from the playtests is that the numbers are not that important to most people.  We know that only a relatively small subset of gamers actually post on rpg forums, which I think it fair to speculate is significantly more heavily skewed toward those more likely to obsess over the numbers than the overall gaming populace.

My anecdotal experience is that almost everyone I have ever gamed with finds the numbers to be a pain in the ass and just wants some cool hook to hang their character around.

Could this have been caused by the disparity between that picture you posted and how older games actually generated PCs?

I mean if the lady in the picture is dreaming up a butt-kicking warrior in shining armor, and then has to roll 3d6 for stats straight down the row (or even 4d6 drop the lowest), there is no guarantee that she will be able to play what she envisions.

I think the spreadsheet below the picture is an extreme case of ensuring the character you have envisioned, and desire to play, is what is actually represented on your character sheet.

Older D&D type games don't really allow you to ensure you get the character you want. If the lady in the picture sat down to a Basic or AD&D game and said she wanted to play a physically strong, wise, and attractive warrior before rolling her random ability scores.

"Sorry you rolled an 8 for strength so fighter is out. Maybe you could be a thief or magic user."

I think the spreadsheets, feats, daily powers, etc. in newer games are an over reaction to that lady in your picture being told "sorry you can't have that character you were dreaming of".

I am not hostile to older games or random character generation. I am merely pointing out that I think the emphasis on character customization in newer games is a reaction to the randomness in older games character generation systems.

Unfortunately with character customization come the evils of character optimization and that spreadsheet example you gave.

Her character sheet includes a bunch of numbers as well.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;684997Her character sheet includes a bunch of numbers as well.

True. But I think the origin of that spreadsheet started off with this question:

Did the lady in the picture envision that warrior before or after she rolled for her stats?

Yeah, I agree, the fill form looks way to simple.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;684997Her character sheet includes a bunch of numbers as well.

The theme is more important than the DPR in the first one.